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CVS layout suggests weak City design standards 
Posted on: July 21, 2009
If the approved layout for the new CVS convenience store to be built next to Stambaugh Auditorium on Fifth Avenue is any indication, the City of Youngstown has weak design standards to begin with and either too little power to enforce appropriate design or too much desperation in approving any kind of development.
The layout is simply inappropriate for an urban environment, particularly one with such a richly historic setting as the North Side's Wick Park neighborhood. The store is set back, separated from the street by its parking lot and a "Landscape Area Per Youngstown Regulations." I'm anxious to find out what these regulations are and whether they will amount to more than the three trees depicted in the sketch.
The store should front directly on Fifth Avenue and the West Bound Service Road, ensuring the parking is visually obscured behind it and a more walker-friendly setting is created.
Park Avenue is to be converted to a two-way street. Will it revert to one-way on nights with Stambaugh events? That traffic is already a strain, and the (admittedly unsecured) parking that exists currently on the northwest corner of that lot will be removed. Just today I noticed the medical building on the southwest corner has been demolished.
In addition to questions of footprint, however, the more questionable result of all this is the choice of elevation, which is labeled "Desert Bluff." I had enough desert elevations in Tucson and came back here for the history. Unfortunately, the desert followed me and is now immediately adjacent to Stambaugh.
We should not be so desperate for development that we approve whatever is sent our way. We must develop design standards that represent the best of what we still have, and we must ensure they are adhered to. If a developer threatens to walk away if their cheaper design doesn't get approved, we should let them. It's a desirable enough location for both urban residents and University students, that another pharmacy would have come and bid for it if CVS ended up passing.
If we keep accepting crap, that's all we'll have.
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Comments
You know, not everyone on the north side thinks like you do. Many of us, who moved here (long before you did) to live in peace and inexpensive comfort, are thrilled to see the CVS coming (and Walmart). As for the design of the building - again, many of us have no problems with it. In fact, some of us consider Stambaugh Auditorium to be an ugly, gray, dingy looking old hulk. Frankly, the CVS will be a welcome sight. Now, if we could just get a Sheetz gas station in the general area - (maybe by St. E's on Belmont?) life would be close to perfect.
This may be rude on my part, but the previous poster's comment made me laugh out loud. If that kind of development is what you want, there are more than enough places that can provide it without ruining the stateliness of a historic, architecturally rich neighborhood.
I believe we have become too desperate for any development, and it has made us short-sighted. We tear down our historic (irreplacable) architecture because we think that the "blight" is hindering new development. If this is the kind of development we're trying to attract, I think I would prefer the "blight."
I think the 'boxification' of America is sad. CVS has plenty of experience in dealing with towns that have high demands to have aesthetically-pleasing designs, but will of course go with the cheapest alternative if nobody presses them. Even putting a slanted roof on the design and using a warmer brick color will be immensely valuable. And your right...parking lots should be in the back.
Fight it.
The city should go after the slumlords, such as Mack Property Group, and allow these commercial developers do what they know how to do best. The slum housing units that are full of thugs and criminals is what is destroying this city and committing most of the crimes. The city should be happy that any commercial entity is willing to invest any sizeable amount of money within city limits, given the 2.75% local income tax rate. The layout of the lot is perfectly fine, to arrange the building closer to the street would force customers to walk further to gain entrance to the store. Traffic is NOT a strain on Park Ave., that road gets hardly any traffic, most traffic is on Fifth Ave. The medical building that was demolished was at the end of its economically useful life. To suggest that parking lots need to be obscured, that it is somehow more walker-friendly, borders on the ridiculous. This is a fine plan, and the city is getting a quality building.
If the city wants to set its standards too high, then it'll have to be happy with empty lots, delinquent taxes, and having CCA and other inmates transported to cut the grass. It's just amazing how some of these city residents think their town is so great that companies are rushing to locate there. The city should be very pleased that at least this is a masonry building, take a look at the Family Dollar on Market Street, or the old Dollar General at Market & Hilton; both are prefabricated steel buildings. The economics of future retail construction will undoubtedly feature the prefabricated steel building more often and masonry structures less due to the large cost difference.
Erplane, the original design presented to the design board was the more typical brick red and cream colored scheme. But, they were asked to choose a color that was more sympathetic to the stone of Stambaugh Auditorium.
Foxtrot, no one wants the city to set their standards too high. But some standards - especially in such a high profile location - would be nice.
"In fact, some of us consider Stambaugh Auditorium to be an ugly, gray, dingy looking old hulk."
Wow, you are right. It is indeed a hideous piece of architecture. And to think, some of us consider Stambaugh to be a historic gem.
http://www.stambaughauditorium.com/chris...
http://www.stambaughauditorium.com/audit...
http://www.stambaughauditorium.com/histo...
Visited the gardens recently and they are b-e-a-utiful!
I gasped when I read leaveusalone's description of the beautiful and stately Stambaugh Auditorium. I love 5th Avenue and Youngstown for the incredible old homes and history.
One of the reasons I love visiting Hilton Head Island is the architectural standards - strictly enforced - that require all construction to blend into the nature and beauty of the island. CVS has a remarkable opportunity here to break out of their modern non-descript architecture and blend into the beauty and history that is 5th Avenue and Youngstown.
It is terrible, shortsighted, and actually pathetic that the city would allow ANY commercial development around Wick Park and adjacent to the Auditorium. Prior to returning to this area in 2001 (we left here 40 years ago), I was a planning commissioner for Prince William Country Virginia for 8 years. As you know, Virginia puts a lot of emphasis on how things look, good design standards, buffering, plantings of native plants, strict control of signage to include size and colors, set backs, downward directed-full cut off parking lot lighting, reduction of light pollution, etc. I could go on, but I won't. The bottom line is the as long as Ohio, and NE Ohio specifically allow, accept, promote, and play dead to developers in the name of economic development, you will get crap, junk facades, poor parking layouts, no speed deceleration lanes, no turn lanes, no landscaping, and all the rest the people B..tch about. In Virginia, NO county supervisors sit on the planning commissions. Planning commissionsers are NOT employees of the country or city planning departments. They are citizens who also are sent to a two week training course sponsored by the Virginia Citizens Planning Association, so they are educated on zoning, and planning related issues. They recommend approval, disapproval, and modifications to the County Supervisors. They also are the APPROVAL/DISAPPROVAL body for ALL public facilities....including schools, county roads, and certain utilites. If you drive through Virginia and remark about how nice most of the state looks, this is the reason. Unfortunately, there is a gross lack of backbone to change the trash system in use in Ohio. Now that my parents are deceased, our children are moving out of Ohio, we will be soon looking are new homes in Virginia or NC. Aside for the stupid mentality of the unions here, and the "woe is us" view of the world, another reason folks don't re-locate here is that the place looks like crap all too often and what zoning exists, the locals don't have the guts to step on the offenders and jerk a knot in their backsides. Some localities have passed home rule to help clean up the place, but the vast majority of townships don't. Zoning offenders know that in Ohio, there is only a tap on the wrist if their properties look like junkyards, and the court's penalties of a couple hunderd dollars are essentially waived, or considered to be just the price of doing business. When was the last time you saw anyone heavily fined, shut down, or jailed for zoning violations? It happens all the time in Virginia. As I've said before....if you don't like what this area looks like...look in the mirror. Putting a CVS or anything else in a historical district is stupidity at the maximum and illustrates the myopic and extremely poor judgement of city officials. Poor urban planning trashes everyone's future.
Cheers to clarkkent. Well said!
The so-called historical district is in a state of transition. Several of the structures opposite Wick Park aren't really "historical" structures. Park Vista I & II were built in the 1960's, the building at 1325 Fifth was built in 1989. I think this is a good project and is designed right. Prince William County has a cost of living index of 121.1 (HIGH), 24% of all workers are government workers, and houses sell in the $200k-$400/k range (citydata.com). You can't fairly compare that county with Mahoning. If Canfield, Columbiana, Poland, or New Middletown isn't good enough for you, then get out of our low-end state.
That's right - if you can't come down to the level of the posted messages here, you need to leave. How dare you speak up for something better and some standards.
Poland fought with Walgreens and got a much better result. As has been said, if you're content with crap, that is exactly what you will get - now and always.
The Walgreens in Poland is no architectural wonder. The second story is fake. The auditor record shows it as a one story, and at night the white walls behind the second-level windows looks ridiculous. Some fight Poland had with Walgreens, why didn't they force them to put in a full-functioning second story, maybe for professional offices. Youngstown really only is entitled to pre-fabricated steel buildings, due to the high local income taxes and the extreme risk of locating any retail store there because of shoplifting and armed robbery concerns. We already have standards, it's called the Ohio Building Code. Surrounding suburbs can be more flexible and pick off what little commercial development is slated for Youngstown. If you want the highest-quality structures, then YOU come up with the money and build them.
To Foxtrot, I was not comparing cost of living data here to PWC or any other county. Your comments are off base and actually you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Most construction is under the BOCA codes. Also, I don't have to come up with ANY money to build anything. That is the developer's problem. The cost for them to build something nice is not much more than to build it looking like crap. I was making the point that good projects that look nice and people like, take effort and backbone from the local politicians. Just to be clear, yes, many of the residents of N. Virginia are government workers and military personnel. I presume you have never been there. However, because of that being a nice area to live in, the tax base is higher and my property taxes in N. Virginia were less that half what I pay in Liberty Twp.
Developers will build the cheapest building they can get away with. Unless the local codes are good, and the local politicians and citizens are concerned enough, you will continue to get junk. Many times we would not approve permits for developments, including residential developments for hundreds of house, and large commercial projects because of esthetics. We demanded that in order for the developer to get approval from the Planning Commission, they had to comply with the tight standards for traffic control, turn lanes, traffic signals, landscaping, buffering, trash pickup times, etc. And by the way, the developers footed the costs for highway improvements, traffic signals, turn and deceleration lanes, etc. These costs were NOT paid for by the taxpayers. In areas where architectural design was important, we made the developer use coordinating colors, roof lines, facades, etc. McDonalds and Burger Kings didn't get big red ugly signs that lit up the night sky. The codes here are inadequate if you want nice development. My daughter lives in Dublin, Ohio. Most of that area is similar to the designs and layouts you will find in the N. Virginia area. It looks nice, and people want to live there. It can be done, but it takes effort and interest. That is lacking here.
I know what I'm talking about. By forcing commercial developers to spend more in developing their facilities, the customers of the said facilities will have to pay more for the goods and services provided in those facilities. Nothing is for free. Tight regulations reduce the FREEDOM of developers to develop an economically effective solution. You say you are from Liberty? The new strip plaza built at 304 & 193 is a pre-fabricated steel building that has been faced with concrete block. The new store being built in the location of the old Boatyard is a pre-fabricated steel building. You can't force developers to do anything that it is not economical for them to do. They will simply take their development elsewhere. You say most construction is under the BOCA codes; in Ohio we have the Ohio Building Code, chapter 4101, of the ORC. The slum residential rental units are the major problem in this entire region, NOT the commercial developments. They need to toughen standards there. This is a typical LIBERAL philosophy, tightening standards for commercial/industrial occupancies, while leaving the welfare-classed trash to wallow in their depreciated shacks. What do you think of the new Walmart in Liberty? Does it meet your standards? Most residential structures in Liberty are built to low standards. I have a strong feeling that what you call "junk" you could not afford to build yourself, so you're trying to force others, in a typical liberal fashion, to spend the money you don't have to spend. Maybe all this entire society deserves is "crap," considering the low moral standards that pervade society today. In Dublin, Ohio homes sell in the $225k-$325k range, and median household income is $102k/year. Why don't you find an area to compare that has similar economic figures to this area. The people around the valley could never afford the "perfectly-planned," liberal, "dream-state" that your high-end standards would force on the population. How about Vintage Village, are the standards high enough for you there? "Glorious" Liberty residents claiming the standards aren't high enough in Youngstown.
The most economical solution is always the best.
The new Dollar General on Addison Rd. in Brookfield is a pre-fabricated steel building. The new Dollar General on Warren-Sharon Rd. is another pre-fabricated steel building. The newer strip plaza on 46 in Mineral Ridge is a pre-fabricated steel building faced in the front only with block. Most of the new buildings on Ohio Works Drive are rigid-frame pre-fabricated steel buildings. Only the government has the money to waste on "first-class" structures. How about modular homes? Are they up to your high standards? After hurricane Katrina, should Bush have built stone homes for the refugees instead of the house trailers? Is Compass West or Valley View Apartments built to high enough standards for you? Should they have paid double or triple to construct "first-class" structures for the proletariat that lives there?
I'm very glad that the township I live in doesn't even have zoning, so no group of liberal snobs can tell me that anything I build isn't good enough.
You really don't get it. Are you homeless and living in junk car? Since you live in a township with no zoning (probably Brookfield), ask the folks on Rt. 7 that had a strip mine show up next to their homes. The blasting rocked their houses and caused cracks in their foundations That would have not happened with adequate zoning, since you can't have heavy industrial uses in a residential area. Zoning started in Ohio in the 1920s in the town of Euclid, Ohio.
Maybe you would prefer some idiot putting a goat shed next to your yard and piles junk cars in his front yard. Lack of zoning will allow that to happen and you will have to like it or lump it. There's nothing wrong with steel frame buildings, modular construction or any other type. Morton steel frame buildings are very nice, attractive, and low cost. The great thing is that they can be fitted with exterior facades to blend in with any setting.
You seem to be missing the whole point of this discussion. If the object is to have neighborhoods and commercial areas that look nice, are inviting for people to go to, and increase the value of the property and those that surround them, then effort has to be made through a combination of building regulations, better local standards, involvement of local goverment, and the desire of the citizens to want stuff that doesn't look like junk. All that can be achieved without added cost to developers. Been there, done that, so get over it. By the way, I'm no liberal snob. Aside from being a planning commissioner for 8 years, I'm also a retired US Army officer, and worked in private business for a number of years, and was President of a Home Owner's Association in Virginia with over 250 residences. So....if the people here want junky looking buildings, inadequate parking, no landscaping, neighbors with trash overflowing their yards, it's their fault. It can change, and if Y'town wants to attract businesses from other locations to locate here, and move their employees here, they look for many things, one of which is good schools, amenities, and nice neighborhoods and attractive shopping areas. This area is grossly lacking when compared to many other areas around the country, and even in Ohio. Having lived in 5 states over the past 40 years, this area is woefully behind on every score. Ugly buildings and appearance is high on the list.
I've lived in Brookfield and when it was time to give up the trailer and buy a house, I moved to a place with zoning. How can your property values hold up when Dollar General throws up pre-fab steel buildings or someone plunks an automated car wash down next to your house? You've got to have standards if you want your community to be a decent place to live. Tyler's comments are right on the money. I'm pleased CVS sees opportunity in Youngstown and is willing to develop but this design could be better. A building utilizing warmer colors, masonry and rear parking would help the neighborhood. The proposed building just looks out of place. Youngstown doesn't have to be desperate just because its hard up.
Houston, Texas is the largest city in the U.S. without zoning, and is booming as a result. Brookfield has a lot of truckers there, and zoning would deny them the privilege of taking their rigs home with them. While I don't believe in zoning, I DO believe in property maintenance standards. Whatever is built should either be properly maintained or demolished. I prefer prefabricated steel buildings because they're lower-cost and easier to recycle. Masonry structures are expensive to build and to demolish. The only use for "scrap" masonry is a landfill. Whatever is constructed will sooner or later have to demolished, so the steel building has every advantage over the masonry structure in that regard. Stucco looks like crap, and the freeze/thaw cycles in this climate will cause it to crumble. Youngstown's standards are more than adequate in the commercial/industrial areas, and woefully inadequate in the residential areas.
Zoning is important to maintain resale values for both commercial and residential values. If you do not have zoning, an area can quickly become desolate based on one establish coming in. CVS is going into the area because they know they will fill a void. Its in their long term best interest to maintain the integrity of the area, which would keep property values from declining, which would mean more tennants/owners that have greater amounts of disposable and discretionary income to spend at their store.
Once again the City proves its short term vision. (And please save the 2010 talk; 2010 is, at best, a poorly articulated and completely undeveloped IDEA and PR piece, not a PLAN.) The entire "plan" is a book of maps that makes tangential allusions to smart shrinkage.
Also, if you want to see a REALLY ridiculous design drive down Michigan Avenue from Park Ave and look at the apt buildings allowed to be built on the right hand side. Who allowed that? They ought to be fired or removed. I lived on Michigan while at YSU and would have much preferred the vacant lot that sat there than that new ugliness. The City government works for the people. Make your voices heard and take it to the Mayor, who ultimately controls these decisions via departmental appointments and their employees.
I went today past the apartment buildings WilliamP mentioned above on Michigan Ave. The apartment buildings are of an economical design and are fine. They are good enough for their intended purpose. Face it. no one is goinh to willing to invest what it would cost to replicate the structures that were originally built in that area. Either the city takes what it is offered or it gets nothing but empty lots.
No one is going to be willing to invest what it would cost to replicate the structures originally built in that area.
"No one is going to be willing to invest what it would cost to replicate the structures originally built in that area."
I don't see anyone asking for that. I'm certainly not. I don't see why it would be prohibitively expensive to have the building closer to the road with parking behind. It might also be nice to NOT have the garbage dumpster adjacant to one of this city's landmarks.