I was responding to your comment "Their ineptness has been shown by every study pitting our kids against kids from other countries."
You seem to deliberately miss any point I make when you disagree with it. I wasn't talking at all about people not supporting the levies because they had seen a movie. I never even considered that people in our communities would ever base a vote simply on that.
My point is that comparing American public school students with students in Europe and Asia is done using an "uneven" sample.
It's interesting that when I explain something you disagree with, you come back with a retort that totally misses the point I was making or launches another tirade on a different or slightly related subject.
I have, however, realized from this that if I keep posting here, I'll be constantly responding to things, and well, I have other things I can more positively spend the time on.
Actually I handle my classroom very well. But I also have a lot of years of experience. I was simply explaining that not *all* teachers are complaining about class size for themselves. I was trying to show the perspective of trying to make sure a class that size with different abilities (which is very common) gets everything it deserves.
It's interesting that when some people make a rebuttal on this thread it generally contains a veiled insult. ;-)
@ resident: concerning teachers, students and overcrowded classrooms:
I'm not as concerned for the teacher to have 35 students as much as I am for the students. In larger, crowded classrooms, it is much harder to be able to give every student what they individually require: just as an example, we have students that have special education issues, ADD problems, average students and students that are on each end of the ability spectrum in one room.
You have one teacher working hard to balance 35 to 40 children, keep excellent classroom management and meet each child's needs simultaneously.
I would invite anyone to come into such a classroom and teach (and really teach - meeting the standards, having interesting presentations, giving the students valid assessments) for 50 minutes and see how one would fare managing 35-40 teenagers of varying levels crammed into a classroom originally built for 20- 25 and complete the curriculum to everyone's satisfaction.
I simply know from experience that students in a classroom of 25-28 fare better than a more crowded classroom of 35-40.
I said we needed to hold the State of Ohio responsible for decisions it made and refused to uphold.
I did not make a single negative comment about BOEs or administrations in any of my posts.
However I must say the idea that I make "three times" what most people do in my district is an utter fallacy.
I am a taypayer in my own district - a teacher and a taxpayer - and I do try to look at things from both perspectives.
As far as changing how schools are funded, again, we will never please everyone. Right now funding by house tax or state mandate are the only options we have. Perhaps we can come up with something new. But it has to include the voices and ideas of the taxpaying public, the teachers, the administrations, the BOEs, and the *state governement.*
And NCLB needs to be changed in how it decides which districts are more needful of money. If NCLB were more equitable instead of throwing money at a school to fix the society around it, part of this funding mess would not exist.
I see so many of the attacks simply on the teachers, which is inquitable in light they are some of the only ones currently that are moving to take cuts and freezes. I think we need to look to and demand that our state government make some serious changes in how schools are funded and NCLB and we would see a difference.
One thing I would like to point out is that people seem to be deliberately avoiding certain points. I do hear the one agenda “Teachers are paid too much. Break the union. Bring down their wages, and this will solve everything.”
The way Ohio funds it’s public schools was declared unconstitutional. Look up DeRolph v. State. Basically, the Ohio government refuses to police itself. How nice that would be for we common folk.
How schools are funded - based on property taxes - and No Child Left Behind’s unfunded mandates are what has decimated school funds and the need (advised by the State of Ohio!) to continually go to the taxpayers.
I see teachers *everywhere* willing to negotiate fair contracts and work with the school boards and do their part to ease the pressures on the public. But to demand a set amount “10 percent or nothing you guys will do will satisfy me” is meaningless.
To set all of this right, we need to change school funding. We need to hold the state accountable. And that takes the public, the teachers, the students, the parents and the school boards to work together and stand together and demand responsibility from our state government.
Although some wish to lump all the school ills that exist on the teachers, that is quite simply not true. We are a group of professionals who work as hard as anyone in *any sector*, are willing to work with the public and take freezes or cuts in these economic times, give a lot of heart and time to our students, and ask in return to be paid at a professional level and to earn a modicum of respect doing it.
Now I know that what I post will never satisfy some. But I have welcomed the interaction and discussion. I know that I am willing - and have - worked with my school board to come to a fair contract. But I will never be able to satisfy everyone. I believe for the schools to thrive, the public, the teachers, BOEs, the students and our *state government* must come together to save our systems. If we all give a little and work together, I believe this can be done.
Last year we were in pay freeze and gave up a percentage. This year we have willingly given up step raises and taken another long term freeze for several years. (Step and regular pay freeze.)
I have already been paying into my health care ever since I came to my school system. I also pay into social security which I can never collect on. But I am required to pay into it and that I may add, goes into the pie for the rest of the tax paying public who can collect.
I'm sure what we have given up will never be enough for a few of you. Am I willing to lose ten percent of my salary? No. Would you? I think we were very fair and responsible in our negotiations.
I live in the community I teach in. I am also a taxpayer, and a single person. I have lived in my community for 43 years. I went to my school. My family always voted for the schools because they are the heart of our community. I live in a decent-sized house where the levy would raise my taxes to the point it would cost me about two loaded pizzas a month. I can do without that, in order to have well-educated children, a sound community, and nice property values. One day I will want to sell my house and move to a condo. Who will buy my property once the school is in ruin? A young couple with children?
I can do without two loaded pizzas or give up one extra hair appointment a month for this.
@ Streetsmart who said: "Public schools don't need "Waiting for Superman" to discredit them. Their ineptness has been shown by every study pitting our kids against kids from other countries. When will people finally learn that it is the teacher's union that stymies every attempt at real improvement?"
School is school, regardless of unions or not. Success is a combination of the teacher's input and guidance, student effort, and parental concern and guidance. You cannot blame all the wrongs you feel you see on unions alone.
In China and most Asian countries (especially Japan) you study. You excel because there is *extreme* family pressure to succeed and become a highly educated person. How you raise your status in society is very much based on your level of education. Kids compete to get into the top elementary schools, let alone the top high schools or colleges. Teachers are respected in their culture. Students in turn are respectful and go to work in the classroom without as much classroom management because to distract the teacher is a waste of time for all. Many students then go after school to "cram schools" which their families pay for on an additional basis. Students that don't make the cuts are guided into other jobs and professions. We test every child in the USA regardless of ability. In Europe and Asia, the results we see are often only those of the top 20 percent. Quite frankly, you simply cannot compare the results.
DId I see "Waiting for Superman"? Yes. Did I think it was extremely biased to show one viewpoint? Yes. And I am a teacher, yes. But as an extremely liberal person, if I thought the film was good and sound, I would say so. However it shows one viewpoint, was filmed strategically to show one viewpoint, and from someone who has been in the educational arena for more than fifteen years, it is a propagranda piece.
Simply my opinion from someone who actually teaches and isn't making assumptions from the outside looking in.
"Canfield and Poland... Just do it! Push your districts into fiscal emergency so we can roll back the "over-the-top" salary increases of the last 3 years... People... take charge! Make the BOEs work for you! VOTE NO OVER & OVER TILL WE GET WHAT WE WANT!"
If what you want is for your vitriolic comments to push a community into putting a district into fiscal emergency, watch the state come in and take respected schools and turn them into shells of what they once were - a pride of the community -, see property values fall (what family with children will buy expensive homes in such a district?), watch communities disintigrate into disrespect, distrust and blame.......all to break contracts in which teachers have already willingly taken cuts, frozen salaries for future years and agreed to pay more for health care?
I have been teaching for fifteen years. I do not have a masters degree, but I do have three certifications and am working on my fourth. The continuing education required to keep and upgrade my certifications comes out of my salary. Which is a comment, not a complaint.
I love teaching. I take classes, read, travel and do anything necessary to keep expanding my techniques and knowledge so that my students stay excited and involved. It is not just a job to me.
School starts at 7:45 and ends at 3:15. I am always there by 7:00 AM. I am never surprised to see the many cars in the staff lot alongside me. I tutor before/after school beyond my work hours. I work evenings and weekends to grade, evaluate assignments and create new lessons. My school day has never corresponded to the "official" hours of my contract. (i.e. never less but often many more).
I am not a believer in tenure.
I believe that we as teachers should be evaluated often; but I do not agree with basing teacher pay simply on student performance because there are too many factors that I cannot control. I see students for a limited amount of time. Some children have little or no supervision at home to make sure they eat, get enough sleep, dress properly for school and instill good study habits. Students have told me they went to bed at 4:00 AM because they were texting a friend all night. Parents have their children 17 hours of the day and I see them for only a small part of the time that they are in school. To base my salary on elements I have absolutely no control over - does this really make sense to anyone?
No Child Left Behind came into being and it began by taking money from wealthier "high-performing" districts and parsing it out to those that where "low-performing". In the minds of some politicians, this made things more equal. As if throwing money at a school can solve social ills. But NCLB is mandated by the state. Teachers and districts have no option but to do as it says. And it includes a plethora of unfunded mandates. Which means the school district must pay for them.
Some people think that if teachers take a large pay cut, there will be money from heaven for everything without levies. Except, without a levy, even deep teacher cuts can never come near to making up for state monies that have been taken away.
The questions as to why busing, extracurriculars and P to P are topping the list of cuts? Because it's that or cut an academic teacher, lose class offerings and put students into academic classrooms of 35 or more. Which sadly, has already begun.
Achieving a great education is the reason school exists.
Teachers *are* stepping up, taking cuts and freezes and paying more. I know I did willingly. But we need the public support too. It's about our community, our kids, and our belief in each other. To continue to be able to be proud of what we have given to our students and what our students have accomplished. And to respect one another.
‘Waiting for Superman’ was an eye-opener for school supporter
@Streetsmart
I was responding to your comment "Their ineptness has been shown by every study pitting our kids against kids from other countries."
You seem to deliberately miss any point I make when you disagree with it. I wasn't talking at all about people not supporting the levies because they had seen a movie. I never even considered that people in our communities would ever base a vote simply on that.
My point is that comparing American public school students with students in Europe and Asia is done using an "uneven" sample.
It's interesting that when I explain something you disagree with, you come back with a retort that totally misses the point I was making or launches another tirade on a different or slightly related subject.
I have, however, realized from this that if I keep posting here, I'll be constantly responding to things, and well, I have other things I can more positively spend the time on.
Thanks for the discussion.
June 20, 2011 at 11:12 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
@resident
Actually I handle my classroom very well. But I also have a lot of years of experience. I was simply explaining that not *all* teachers are complaining about class size for themselves. I was trying to show the perspective of trying to make sure a class that size with different abilities (which is very common) gets everything it deserves.
It's interesting that when some people make a rebuttal on this thread it generally contains a veiled insult. ;-)
June 20, 2011 at 7:36 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
@ resident: concerning teachers, students and overcrowded classrooms:
I'm not as concerned for the teacher to have 35 students as much as I am for the students. In larger, crowded classrooms, it is much harder to be able to give every student what they individually require: just as an example, we have students that have special education issues, ADD problems, average students and students that are on each end of the ability spectrum in one room.
You have one teacher working hard to balance 35 to 40 children, keep excellent classroom management and meet each child's needs simultaneously.
I would invite anyone to come into such a classroom and teach (and really teach - meeting the standards, having interesting presentations, giving the students valid assessments) for 50 minutes and see how one would fare managing 35-40 teenagers of varying levels crammed into a classroom originally built for 20- 25 and complete the curriculum to everyone's satisfaction.
I simply know from experience that students in a classroom of 25-28 fare better than a more crowded classroom of 35-40.
June 20, 2011 at 2:35 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
@Ytown
I said we needed to hold the State of Ohio responsible for decisions it made and refused to uphold.
I did not make a single negative comment about BOEs or administrations in any of my posts.
However I must say the idea that I make "three times" what most people do in my district is an utter fallacy.
I am a taypayer in my own district - a teacher and a taxpayer - and I do try to look at things from both perspectives.
As far as changing how schools are funded, again, we will never please everyone. Right now funding by house tax or state mandate are the only options we have. Perhaps we can come up with something new. But it has to include the voices and ideas of the taxpaying public, the teachers, the administrations, the BOEs, and the *state governement.*
And NCLB needs to be changed in how it decides which districts are more needful of money. If NCLB were more equitable instead of throwing money at a school to fix the society around it, part of this funding mess would not exist.
I see so many of the attacks simply on the teachers, which is inquitable in light they are some of the only ones currently that are moving to take cuts and freezes. I think we need to look to and demand that our state government make some serious changes in how schools are funded and NCLB and we would see a difference.
June 20, 2011 at 8:56 a.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
One thing I would like to point out is that people seem to be deliberately avoiding certain points. I do hear the one agenda “Teachers are paid too much. Break the union. Bring down their wages, and this will solve everything.”
The way Ohio funds it’s public schools was declared unconstitutional. Look up DeRolph v. State. Basically, the Ohio government refuses to police itself. How nice that would be for we common folk.
How schools are funded - based on property taxes - and No Child Left Behind’s unfunded mandates are what has decimated school funds and the need (advised by the State of Ohio!) to continually go to the taxpayers.
I see teachers *everywhere* willing to negotiate fair contracts and work with the school boards and do their part to ease the pressures on the public. But to demand a set amount “10 percent or nothing you guys will do will satisfy me” is meaningless.
To set all of this right, we need to change school funding. We need to hold the state accountable. And that takes the public, the teachers, the students, the parents and the school boards to work together and stand together and demand responsibility from our state government.
Although some wish to lump all the school ills that exist on the teachers, that is quite simply not true. We are a group of professionals who work as hard as anyone in *any sector*, are willing to work with the public and take freezes or cuts in these economic times, give a lot of heart and time to our students, and ask in return to be paid at a professional level and to earn a modicum of respect doing it.
Now I know that what I post will never satisfy some. But I have welcomed the interaction and discussion. I know that I am willing - and have - worked with my school board to come to a fair contract. But I will never be able to satisfy everyone. I believe for the schools to thrive, the public, the teachers, BOEs, the students and our *state government* must come together to save our systems. If we all give a little and work together, I believe this can be done.
June 19, 2011 at 9:58 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
Last year we were in pay freeze and gave up a percentage. This year we have willingly given up step raises and taken another long term freeze for several years. (Step and regular pay freeze.)
I have already been paying into my health care ever since I came to my school system. I also pay into social security which I can never collect on. But I am required to pay into it and that I may add, goes into the pie for the rest of the tax paying public who can collect.
I'm sure what we have given up will never be enough for a few of you. Am I willing to lose ten percent of my salary? No. Would you? I think we were very fair and responsible in our negotiations.
June 19, 2011 at 8:37 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
@Streetsmart
I live in the community I teach in. I am also a taxpayer, and a single person. I have lived in my community for 43 years. I went to my school. My family always voted for the schools because they are the heart of our community. I live in a decent-sized house where the levy would raise my taxes to the point it would cost me about two loaded pizzas a month. I can do without that, in order to have well-educated children, a sound community, and nice property values. One day I will want to sell my house and move to a condo. Who will buy my property once the school is in ruin? A young couple with children?
I can do without two loaded pizzas or give up one extra hair appointment a month for this.
June 19, 2011 at 11:35 a.m. permalink suggest removal
‘Waiting for Superman’ was an eye-opener for school supporter
@ Streetsmart who said: "Public schools don't need "Waiting for Superman" to discredit them. Their ineptness has been shown by every study pitting our kids against kids from other countries. When will people finally learn that it is the teacher's union that stymies every attempt at real improvement?"
School is school, regardless of unions or not. Success is a combination of the teacher's input and guidance, student effort, and parental concern and guidance. You cannot blame all the wrongs you feel you see on unions alone.
In China and most Asian countries (especially Japan) you study. You excel because there is *extreme* family pressure to succeed and become a highly educated person. How you raise your status in society is very much based on your level of education. Kids compete to get into the top elementary schools, let alone the top high schools or colleges. Teachers are respected in their culture. Students in turn are respectful and go to work in the classroom without as much classroom management because to distract the teacher is a waste of time for all. Many students then go after school to "cram schools" which their families pay for on an additional basis. Students that don't make the cuts are guided into other jobs and professions. We test every child in the USA regardless of ability. In Europe and Asia, the results we see are often only those of the top 20 percent. Quite frankly, you simply cannot compare the results.
DId I see "Waiting for Superman"? Yes. Did I think it was extremely biased to show one viewpoint? Yes. And I am a teacher, yes. But as an extremely liberal person, if I thought the film was good and sound, I would say so. However it shows one viewpoint, was filmed strategically to show one viewpoint, and from someone who has been in the educational arena for more than fifteen years, it is a propagranda piece.
Simply my opinion from someone who actually teaches and isn't making assumptions from the outside looking in.
June 19, 2011 at 11:20 a.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
In response to Streetsmart:
"Canfield and Poland... Just do it! Push your districts into fiscal emergency so we can roll back the "over-the-top" salary increases of the last 3 years... People... take charge! Make the BOEs work for you! VOTE NO OVER & OVER TILL WE GET WHAT WE WANT!"
If what you want is for your vitriolic comments to push a community into putting a district into fiscal emergency, watch the state come in and take respected schools and turn them into shells of what they once were - a pride of the community -, see property values fall (what family with children will buy expensive homes in such a district?), watch communities disintigrate into disrespect, distrust and blame.......all to break contracts in which teachers have already willingly taken cuts, frozen salaries for future years and agreed to pay more for health care?
So much effort for such sad consequences.
June 18, 2011 at 11:31 p.m. permalink suggest removal
In defense of teachers
I have been teaching for fifteen years. I do not have a masters degree, but I do have three certifications and am working on my fourth. The continuing education required to keep and upgrade my certifications comes out of my salary. Which is a comment, not a complaint.
I love teaching. I take classes, read, travel and do anything necessary to keep expanding my techniques and knowledge so that my students stay excited and involved. It is not just a job to me.
School starts at 7:45 and ends at 3:15. I am always there by 7:00 AM. I am never surprised to see the many cars in the staff lot alongside me. I tutor before/after school beyond my work hours. I work evenings and weekends to grade, evaluate assignments and create new lessons. My school day has never corresponded to the "official" hours of my contract. (i.e. never less but often many more).
I am not a believer in tenure.
I believe that we as teachers should be evaluated often; but I do not agree with basing teacher pay simply on student performance because there are too many factors that I cannot control. I see students for a limited amount of time. Some children have little or no supervision at home to make sure they eat, get enough sleep, dress properly for school and instill good study habits. Students have told me they went to bed at 4:00 AM because they were texting a friend all night. Parents have their children 17 hours of the day and I see them for only a small part of the time that they are in school. To base my salary on elements I have absolutely no control over - does this really make sense to anyone?
No Child Left Behind came into being and it began by taking money from wealthier "high-performing" districts and parsing it out to those that where "low-performing". In the minds of some politicians, this made things more equal. As if throwing money at a school can solve social ills. But NCLB is mandated by the state. Teachers and districts have no option but to do as it says. And it includes a plethora of unfunded mandates. Which means the school district must pay for them.
Some people think that if teachers take a large pay cut, there will be money from heaven for everything without levies. Except, without a levy, even deep teacher cuts can never come near to making up for state monies that have been taken away.
The questions as to why busing, extracurriculars and P to P are topping the list of cuts? Because it's that or cut an academic teacher, lose class offerings and put students into academic classrooms of 35 or more. Which sadly, has already begun.
Achieving a great education is the reason school exists.
Teachers *are* stepping up, taking cuts and freezes and paying more. I know I did willingly. But we need the public support too. It's about our community, our kids, and our belief in each other. To continue to be able to be proud of what we have given to our students and what our students have accomplished. And to respect one another.
June 18, 2011 at 10:59 p.m. permalink suggest removal