There's been a lot of bashing of the Minor Leagues in these comments - All unfair. The ECHL is the 2nd most productive suppler of players to the NHL behind the AHL. Nearly all NHL players spend time in the minor leagues to improve their game up to the professional level from what they had played when drafted from the Canadian Jr Leagues, Colleges or, yes the U.S. based Jr. Leagues. The league allows the fewest "veteran" players of 3 "AA" minor leagues. That means the majority of players on the ice are young guys trying to make to the next level.
Seems like a lot of people think that the USHL is a straight step to the NHL. As a league they are way behind the Canadian Jr. Leagues and Colleges. And just like players from those sources, most USHL players that get drafted don't make the NHL. Most spend their career in the Minor Leagues.
ECHL hockey is a step above the CHL we had, less older players, more players under NHL contract and a better chance at moving up. The age average is mid-20's so they are fast and hit hard. These are'nt kids learning the game, these are adult players trying their all to move ahead. They aren't old foggies playing out their days, there's no room for them on the rosters.
Youngstown deserves the best level of hockey it can get into the Chevy Centre. The ECHL is a step above the USHL in speed, hitting and general skills, just like The Akron Aeros are a step above the MV Scrappers.
It was gracious for Mr. Zoldan to put is team in the Chevy when there were dates to fill. But the attendance never met his projections, so putting another team at a bit higher level is still going to be amateur hockey and that hasn't drawn any sort of numbers to show it has a potential to be successful. All the efforts for other Ohio Amateur Hockey teams in either the USHL or NAHL have failed as well - Cleveland Jr. Barons, Columbus Jr. Bluejackets, and now the Phantoms have to move to Michigan because of the high cost of travel. Arguing that the Phantoms didn't have time to market better doesn't hold-up since all they were doing was playing 5 miles away from where they normally played. The Phantoms have a strong marketing organization and excellent connections with the Newspapers and TV so they were well promoted.
Pro Hockey didn't fail in Youngstown - The owner failed. We had satisfactory attendance to keep a pro team playing here - we just didn't have a league to play in. Given a more experienced organization with the support of arena management that is not out only for the home office in Texas, and coverage by newspapers and local TV, Youngstown can be very successful with a Pro Team.
Let the Amateur League come in, but don't block out a Pro Franchise by giving Mr. Zoldan controls of playing dates, access, etc such as we had with Herb Washington.
Hockey4life. You didn't do all the numbers - which I did. The ECHL league average is 4131. 18 of the leagues 29 teams average over 3500 - the magic number in minor league hockey to be cost effective. Minor league hockey has no relationship in attendance to who they are affiliated with, the team on the ice and it's promotion are the draws. One of teams of the USHL is drawing only 1400.
Wheeling has not been a successful franchise over the last 4 years and is looking to move (though not admitting to it publically). Johnstown is run at a loss by the city to keep the building active. - they have been in the league since it began, and were an active minor league team in other leagues before that - the arena only seats 3800 if you hang from the rafters (see Slap Shot to see the insides).
If the Phantoms had drawn say 2500 in their games I would have said there was a chance of a USHL doing okay, but they didn't, without family and friends the arena would be empty for their games. The public has shown no interest - even with the promotions, and coverage they've received. It's still a simple choice based on the numbers - Youngstown Pro Hockey has shown it can draw even with all the problems of the Steelhounds, a very well run Amateur team with the Phantoms are hasn't drawn. If you can have the USHL while still allowing a Pro franchise to come in then let them, but don't put a USHL team in at the expense of a Pro team in the building.
I'm still trying to figure out why Zoldan simply doesn't add 2000 seats to his Ice Zone to put his USHL franchise in. Why the push on the Chevy? It's going to cost him about 3500 per game to use the Chevy, but if he enlarged the Zone he'd only have the renovation costs to cover.
Well, a lot of people in the Great Lakes States will argue with you on how good their High School Teams are. The OHL players are amateurs just like the NAHL and USHL team players. Canada has a full league of Pro teams in the Eastern Provinces in the LNAH and a huge network of semi-pro teams and leagues throughout the country playing in Senior Leagues.
Plus Canadian Jr hockey is still superior to the U.S. brand - just look at the draft numbers. You might want to take in an Erie Otter game to see the difference between Canadian Jr. and the USHL variety. The hitting is harder, the speed is higher and the player skills on average are better. Plus a lot of the best U.S. players who don't go into the college ranks are on Canadian Jr. Teams.
The ECHL is the 2nd leading minor league sending players to the NHL behind the AHL. Over 400 ECHL players have made into the NHL, so I doubt if I could even skate in a warm-up, but I still might be able to clean the clock of a 16 year old who put's his head down with the puck coming down my wing.
People keep waving the Amateur Hockey is the future flag - but the numbers aren't there. The East coast already has a strong Jr. system as well as teams in both of the Canadian eastern Jr. Leagues. Except for the Canadian affiliated teams, the rest draw the same of less than the numbers seen in the USHL. Comparing how Canadians go to Hockey games and how we do here is like arguing why Pro Soccer is a bust here and the biggest sport in the World elsewhere. Canadians love hockey like Europeans love Soccer.
We heard the same thing about expansion with the CHL when it came to town. Didn't happen then either. Even if it did happen, expansion has never improved the level of play. There isn't that high a surplus of skilled players out there to put into new teams at an equal quality level. Expansion in the NHL needed Europe to balance out the player pool.
To expand you have to have a viable product - unless you just want to be a generous citizen and donate you money to support the local team. U.S. Jr. Hockey doesn't draw enough to do it.
This isn't an argument over the playing level of U.S. Jr. Hockey over Minor Pro Hockey - it's about what is best for Youngstown and the Chevy Centre. The numbers aren't there for Jr. hockey to be successful - no matter what the "talking points" say, the figures don't show it as anything but an outside chance at best. Ohio already lost on USHL team because it couldn't draw - and that in a strong hockey market in Columbus with a successful OSU team and the Bluejackets of the NHL.
The Centre needs a hockey team - it needs one that can draw over 3500 on average and higher with a well run management team in place. A Jr. team can't do that, but a Minor League team in either the ECHL or the IHL can do that.
Bottom line, Pro Hockey will put people in the seat, Jr. Hockey hasn't and won't
Do the numbers! The USHL is only averaging 2800 in attendance. The top team is the only team at above 3300 (4300) The rest (10 of the 11) only average 2400. These aren't figures that will keep a team here! They aren't the figures we've been hearing, they aren't even the figures we had with the Steelhounds.
I’ve played and coached the game at the Jr., and up. USHL or NAHL hockey is High School Hockey - good High School Hockey, but still the same High School, and a number of High School Teams from Minnesota or Michigan could probably do well in either league. Yes a number of players get drafted by the NHL, but most NHL drafts come from the Canadian Junior Leagues (OHL, WHL, QHL), not the U.S. leagues, U.S. Colleges are the next major source. A lot of people seem to think that the Minor League players in the CHL/IHL/ECHL are unskilled bums - most have strong credentials from their years as successful players in the Junior Leagues and College teams. These guys are skilled, dedicated players. Most average in their mid to high 20's and there's a huge difference between someone 28 running into you and someone 18. The same goes for shooting power, puck handling, skating, etc.
We're talking about a business here, and the numbers just don't cut it for the USHL - maybe for the OHL (the Canadian Jr. League located in Ontario, NY and PA.). That league has a higher average age level & a large percentage of the players are already drafted by NHL teams and simply playing to develop physically and skill wise. But, either of the U.S. Jr. leagues are not going to put numbers into the seats the a Pro Team would, and that’s what this is all about.
The ECHL is the best bet here for business reasons - Great Entertainment Value, low travel expenses, controlled player salaries, etc. The IHL plays good hockey with more older players and more the old style NHL clutch and grab - it is moderate in operational costs and the travel range is reasonable.
The AHL really requires a NHL team to foot the bill which is huge compared to A level minor league. We could manage the numbers as several AHL team play in arenas of near the Centre's size, but the operational costs are just way out of sight.
If you could put Zoldan's Jr team in without any lock on weekend dates or controls so that a Pro team could have an open door to the Centre, then let him come. But if you let him have any control, then you simply have what Washington did to him when he wanted to have a tournament here.
Give us Pros. Why put in something that won't draw more than a couple thousand people? Pros have shown they can draws over 3000 with poor ownership, a bad league situation and poor arena management.
Tell Zoldan to put more seats in his Ice Zone if he wants another Kids Hockey Team.
Glad to see some Hockey interest is still there! Honestly the Phantoms have pretty well shown that Jr. Hockey in either the NAHL or USHL are not going to bring in enough people to pay the tab at the Chevy. If Amateur Hockey is what is wanted, the city would be better served by working with YSU to get their Club Hockey team to Varsity level in DIV III. Sorry, but the Phantoms or even the USHL are not much more than High School Hockey at a high level. At least the Ontario Hockey League such as in Erie play by NHL rules, and have alot of upper age kids to make it more physical. Pro Hockey in either the ECHL or the IHL format are what the building needs, and the Steelhounds at least showed that the attendance is there to make it work. That someone wants to move here and the ECHL is willing to forego their usual 1yr hiatus shows that that league is pretty sure Youngstown can succeed. Starting with experienced ownership and a league that wants success from it's franchises would be a big change from what we had with the Steelhounds. The changes of management at the Chevy Centre already show that the building can be a huge asset to the city. Bring in the Pros! I'm waiting for my season tickets already!! J.Witwer
USHL chief cites league’s top quality
There's been a lot of bashing of the Minor Leagues in these comments - All unfair. The ECHL is the 2nd most productive suppler of players to the NHL behind the AHL. Nearly all NHL players spend time in the minor leagues to improve their game up to the professional level from what they had played when drafted from the Canadian Jr Leagues, Colleges or, yes the U.S. based Jr. Leagues. The league allows the fewest "veteran" players of 3 "AA" minor leagues. That means the majority of players on the ice are young guys trying to make to the next level.
Seems like a lot of people think that the USHL is a straight step to the NHL. As a league they are way behind the Canadian Jr. Leagues and Colleges. And just like players from those sources, most USHL players that get drafted don't make the NHL. Most spend their career in the Minor Leagues.
ECHL hockey is a step above the CHL we had, less older players, more players under NHL contract and a better chance at moving up. The age average is mid-20's so they are fast and hit hard. These are'nt kids learning the game, these are adult players trying their all to move ahead. They aren't old foggies playing out their days, there's no room for them on the rosters.
Youngstown deserves the best level of hockey it can get into the Chevy Centre. The ECHL is a step above the USHL in speed, hitting and general skills, just like The Akron Aeros are a step above the MV Scrappers.
It was gracious for Mr. Zoldan to put is team in the Chevy when there were dates to fill. But the attendance never met his projections, so putting another team at a bit higher level is still going to be amateur hockey and that hasn't drawn any sort of numbers to show it has a potential to be successful. All the efforts for other Ohio Amateur Hockey teams in either the USHL or NAHL have failed as well - Cleveland Jr. Barons, Columbus Jr. Bluejackets, and now the Phantoms have to move to Michigan because of the high cost of travel. Arguing that the Phantoms didn't have time to market better doesn't hold-up since all they were doing was playing 5 miles away from where they normally played. The Phantoms have a strong marketing organization and excellent connections with the Newspapers and TV so they were well promoted.
Pro Hockey didn't fail in Youngstown - The owner failed. We had satisfactory attendance to keep a pro team playing here - we just didn't have a league to play in. Given a more experienced organization with the support of arena management that is not out only for the home office in Texas, and coverage by newspapers and local TV, Youngstown can be very successful with a Pro Team.
Let the Amateur League come in, but don't block out a Pro Franchise by giving Mr. Zoldan controls of playing dates, access, etc such as we had with Herb Washington.
March 27, 2009 at 4:57 p.m. permalink suggest removal
USHL chief cites league’s top quality
Hockey4life. You didn't do all the numbers - which I did. The ECHL league average is 4131. 18 of the leagues 29 teams average over 3500 - the magic number in minor league hockey to be cost effective. Minor league hockey has no relationship in attendance to who they are affiliated with, the team on the ice and it's promotion are the draws. One of teams of the USHL is drawing only 1400.
Wheeling has not been a successful franchise over the last 4 years and is looking to move (though not admitting to it publically). Johnstown is run at a loss by the city to keep the building active. - they have been in the league since it began, and were an active minor league team in other leagues before that - the arena only seats 3800 if you hang from the rafters (see Slap Shot to see the insides).
If the Phantoms had drawn say 2500 in their games I would have said there was a chance of a USHL doing okay, but they didn't, without family and friends the arena would be empty for their games. The public has shown no interest - even with the promotions, and coverage they've received. It's still a simple choice based on the numbers - Youngstown Pro Hockey has shown it can draw even with all the problems of the Steelhounds, a very well run Amateur team with the Phantoms are hasn't drawn. If you can have the USHL while still allowing a Pro franchise to come in then let them, but don't put a USHL team in at the expense of a Pro team in the building.
I'm still trying to figure out why Zoldan simply doesn't add 2000 seats to his Ice Zone to put his USHL franchise in. Why the push on the Chevy? It's going to cost him about 3500 per game to use the Chevy, but if he enlarged the Zone he'd only have the renovation costs to cover.
March 27, 2009 at 7:46 a.m. permalink suggest removal
USHL chief cites league’s top quality
Well, a lot of people in the Great Lakes States will argue with you on how good their High School Teams are. The OHL players are amateurs just like the NAHL and USHL team players. Canada has a full league of Pro teams in the Eastern Provinces in the LNAH and a huge network of semi-pro teams and leagues throughout the country playing in Senior Leagues.
Plus Canadian Jr hockey is still superior to the U.S. brand - just look at the draft numbers. You might want to take in an Erie Otter game to see the difference between Canadian Jr. and the USHL variety. The hitting is harder, the speed is higher and the player skills on average are better. Plus a lot of the best U.S. players who don't go into the college ranks are on Canadian Jr. Teams.
The ECHL is the 2nd leading minor league sending players to the NHL behind the AHL. Over 400 ECHL players have made into the NHL, so I doubt if I could even skate in a warm-up, but I still might be able to clean the clock of a 16 year old who put's his head down with the puck coming down my wing.
People keep waving the Amateur Hockey is the future flag - but the numbers aren't there. The East coast already has a strong Jr. system as well as teams in both of the Canadian eastern Jr. Leagues. Except for the Canadian affiliated teams, the rest draw the same of less than the numbers seen in the USHL. Comparing how Canadians go to Hockey games and how we do here is like arguing why Pro Soccer is a bust here and the biggest sport in the World elsewhere. Canadians love hockey like Europeans love Soccer.
We heard the same thing about expansion with the CHL when it came to town. Didn't happen then either. Even if it did happen, expansion has never improved the level of play. There isn't that high a surplus of skilled players out there to put into new teams at an equal quality level. Expansion in the NHL needed Europe to balance out the player pool.
To expand you have to have a viable product - unless you just want to be a generous citizen and donate you money to support the local team. U.S. Jr. Hockey doesn't draw enough to do it.
This isn't an argument over the playing level of U.S. Jr. Hockey over Minor Pro Hockey - it's about what is best for Youngstown and the Chevy Centre. The numbers aren't there for Jr. hockey to be successful - no matter what the "talking points" say, the figures don't show it as anything but an outside chance at best. Ohio already lost on USHL team because it couldn't draw - and that in a strong hockey market in Columbus with a successful OSU team and the Bluejackets of the NHL.
The Centre needs a hockey team - it needs one that can draw over 3500 on average and higher with a well run management team in place. A Jr. team can't do that, but a Minor League team in either the ECHL or the IHL can do that.
Bottom line, Pro Hockey will put people in the seat, Jr. Hockey hasn't and won't
March 26, 2009 at 7:09 p.m. permalink suggest removal
USHL chief cites league’s top quality
Do the numbers! The USHL is only averaging 2800 in attendance. The top team is the only team at above 3300 (4300) The rest (10 of the 11) only average 2400. These aren't figures that will keep a team here! They aren't the figures we've been hearing, they aren't even the figures we had with the Steelhounds.
I’ve played and coached the game at the Jr., and up. USHL or NAHL hockey is High School Hockey - good High School Hockey, but still the same High School, and a number of High School Teams from Minnesota or Michigan could probably do well in either league. Yes a number of players get drafted by the NHL, but most NHL drafts come from the Canadian Junior Leagues (OHL, WHL, QHL), not the U.S. leagues, U.S. Colleges are the next major source. A lot of people seem to think that the Minor League players in the CHL/IHL/ECHL are unskilled bums - most have strong credentials from their years as successful players in the Junior Leagues and College teams. These guys are skilled, dedicated players. Most average in their mid to high 20's and there's a huge difference between someone 28 running into you and someone 18. The same goes for shooting power, puck handling, skating, etc.
We're talking about a business here, and the numbers just don't cut it for the USHL - maybe for the OHL (the Canadian Jr. League located in Ontario, NY and PA.). That league has a higher average age level & a large percentage of the players are already drafted by NHL teams and simply playing to develop physically and skill wise. But, either of the U.S. Jr. leagues are not going to put numbers into the seats the a Pro Team would, and that’s what this is all about.
The ECHL is the best bet here for business reasons - Great Entertainment Value, low travel expenses, controlled player salaries, etc. The IHL plays good hockey with more older players and more the old style NHL clutch and grab - it is moderate in operational costs and the travel range is reasonable.
The AHL really requires a NHL team to foot the bill which is huge compared to A level minor league. We could manage the numbers as several AHL team play in arenas of near the Centre's size, but the operational costs are just way out of sight.
If you could put Zoldan's Jr team in without any lock on weekend dates or controls so that a Pro team could have an open door to the Centre, then let him come. But if you let him have any control, then you simply have what Washington did to him when he wanted to have a tournament here.
March 26, 2009 at 5:47 p.m. permalink suggest removal
USHL chief cites league’s top quality
We Don't Need more High School Hockey!
Give us Pros. Why put in something that won't draw more than a couple thousand people? Pros have shown they can draws over 3000 with poor ownership, a bad league situation and poor arena management.
Tell Zoldan to put more seats in his Ice Zone if he wants another Kids Hockey Team.
March 26, 2009 at 7:42 a.m. permalink suggest removal
Options surface for hockey at Chevy new turns
Glad to see some Hockey interest is still there! Honestly the Phantoms have pretty well shown that Jr. Hockey in either the NAHL or USHL are not going to bring in enough people to pay the tab at the Chevy. If Amateur Hockey is what is wanted, the city would be better served by working with YSU to get their Club Hockey team to Varsity level in DIV III. Sorry, but the Phantoms or even the USHL are not much more than High School Hockey at a high level. At least the Ontario Hockey League such as in Erie play by NHL rules, and have alot of upper age kids to make it more physical. Pro Hockey in either the ECHL or the IHL format are what the building needs, and the Steelhounds at least showed that the attendance is there to make it work. That someone wants to move here and the ECHL is willing to forego their usual 1yr hiatus shows that that league is pretty sure Youngstown can succeed. Starting with experienced ownership and a league that wants success from it's franchises would be a big change from what we had with the Steelhounds. The changes of management at the Chevy Centre already show that the building can be a huge asset to the city. Bring in the Pros! I'm waiting for my season tickets already!! J.Witwer
March 21, 2009 at 7:56 p.m. permalink suggest removal