@JME - I really, don't think that the words "probably" and "could" offer a definitive answer. Now if the article indicated that the spokesman stated "The injections triggered earthquakes in the region", and "...injected into underground deposits, generated earthquakes too, and..." I think that your point may be substantiated.
Does anyone on this board know how many deep injections there are in Ohio (or in the US for that matter), and how long those deep injection wells have been used?
Maybe a little fact finding at the ODNR website (or any of the other DNR websites) should be investigated prior to jumping to conclusions from those that think and those that know...but then again, this is Youngstown and facts are made daily by those with a specific agenda...
I just sent in the paperwork to receive mine. I would like to urge all veterans who served during these periods to take 5 minutes ut of your day and file.
@SOC - I am aware that teachers do not get social security, I was making the statement that the maximum SS payout would be approximately $28,000.
I tried to present this example in the simplest form, and those that have read it have taken everything out of context. The example theoretically presents what the longevity cost of retirement for a "public" employee is, and how it does not relate to what the average tax payer would receive in retirement benefits.
If you chose to take a moment and look at the link that I presented (from the Secretary of State's of website), you will see that this is "not a lie out there in cyberspace".
Also, if my wife was a teacher in Ohio, I would have her proofread my comments before posting blatant spelling and grammatical errors, and then stating that my was a teacher in Ohio...See how I got off point there?
Again, be informed and educated, by reading the Issue, not the pro and con drivel that obviously swayed AnotherAverageCitizen nor the advertisements on the tv or radio...
I do agree that being an educated voter is being a smart voter. By reading the revisions and not listening to the rhetoric (on either side) makes you an educated voter.
P.S. - I looked at the links above, and by reading the pro and con arguments for Issue 2 forced me to read the rest of the document because six statements on each side gives a very convoluted picture of the subject. I've written abstracts that had much more substance than these arguments.
@LOL - If you understood what I was talking about, then you would understand that, while even though the teacher utilized in the example doesn't have a tangible million dollars, the teacher has a tangible million dollars...this is public record, and yes, that teacher will retire a millionaire. The average citizen is guaranteed a maximum benefit of about $28,000 per year, beginning around age 65, and this amounts to no where near a million dollars.
Good thing you didn't assume that I knew what I was talking, because I do know what I'm talking about...so, let's say that I'm right, can you disprove my math? I would probably think not, since math is universal (and I learned algebra way before I learned diff eq).
"And as far as the GM bonuses go if you really did follow what was going on the bonuses were reported by vindy a few days ago. They just received $5k added to the $4k they received a while ago and that adds up to $9k." I see here that you can do basic math, however your logic between the public sector employees and those that work at GM is fuzzy. GM makes a product for sale and profit, the public service provides a service based upon income from the public. When the public can no longer afford to purchase an automobile, that industry has, as we've recently seen, two options. Option 1 - fail, or Option 2 - get bailed out by the government. When the public can no longer afford public service, what options are there? My theory would be "fail", and I'm sure there are many who would agree with me on that.
I'm not blaming the public sector for any of this, all I'm stating is that the economy can no longer fiscally support the benefits. I do believe that the majority of public services are very well warranted.
You make a blank statement about whether or not I should be able to vote on this. I really didn't have an opinion on that until now, and yes, the consumer, in this instance, should be able to chose what happens in that sector, since the consumer votes on my sector daily by choosing to patronize me or purchase my wares. I hope that clarified whether or not where the fairness is, but I learned a long time ago that life isn't fair, and it is what we make of it.
"How about you blame the big businesses in the private sector that employ lobbyists and make major campaign contributions that influence how this state is being ran. How about you question how the legislatures inflate their own salary and pensions by passing laws that work in their favor. If youre gonna point a finger make sure you point it all the ones responsible, not the scapegoats." I've never pointed a finger, I based my entire statement on fact, however, you must realize that lobbyists work both sides of the aisle, locally, state wide, and nationally, and as long as we, the people, continue to elect the same people over and over again without recourse for their actions, nothing will ever change.
@Oop81269 - I'm not stating that I'm for or against Issue 2, because I haven't made up my mind how I going to vote yet, and frankly, it's no one's damn business but mine.
You statement that "if an employee is SUSPECTED of taking part in a strike he forfits TWICE his daily pay for those days that he is SUSPECTED of having taken part in the strike, but, it is up to the employee to PROVE that he did not take part in the strike (what if he was in the hospital) and has to sign a sworn affidavit and go to court to get his money back." holds no merit whatsoever, if said employee is innocent, said employee should have no problem doing so. I'm actually against any type of strike, especially in the state of economy that the Country is in today, you should feel a sense of pride to even have a job (and trust me, I did lose my job and was unemployed for 9 months before taking a job that pays 50% of what I was making).
While taking into consideration your next statement, "12 People APPOINTED by the Governor, President of the Senate, and the Speaker of the house; all of these get paid out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and reimbursed for all "operating expenses paid for out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and according to Ohio Revised Code 124.15 which means that the can make as much as $32.00 per hour for a 40 hour week and they don't pay for their health care because they are state appointees and get it for FREE! (2) Members shall receive compensation fixed pursuant to division (J)(A) of section 124.15 of the Revised Code and shall be reimbursed from the school employees health care fund for actual and necessary expenses incurred in the performance of their official duties as members of the board. THEN there are another 18 bureaucrats appointed to watch over these 12, all with the same free ride. Oh and I almost forgot, They also get to hire their own aides and these get paid for out of the SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND. How does any of this sound right to you?", I just read ORC 124.15, and the subsections referred to and I completely missed any reference to what you are stating, therefore, I cannot comment.
@LOL - I really did try to break the mathematics down to like a 6th grade level to prove a point, and if you go back and re-read it, you might just understand what I'm talking about.
I am a little unclear as to how many years a teacher must work in order to retire, hence I posed the 30 years as a question.
The public sector is a very hard market to get into. Those screaming that if Issue 2 passes, nepotism and cronyism will be the norm (I've really always thought that was the norm).
I am jealous of no one's job or profession, they chose theirs' and I chose mine. The exception is, however, that I can speak for myself and negotiate for me as necessary (I may be fired "at will", but I'm willing to accept that). Therefore, your point is lost because I do not have the "I want what they have" mentality.
What job do "they" have that I may strive to achieve? I spent 10 years in active service of our Country, and have been deployed numerous times to areas that were awarded with an extra $200 a month for hazardous duty pay...so I think I've probably done a job that was much, much more trying and hard, and I received no where near the compensation "they" do today...guess I can bitch about that...
So, I think it may be safe to assume that either you, or someone close to you works at GM because I, and probably most of the other "private" sector employees didn't know they got a $9,000 bonus. However, I for one, do think that working at McDonald's is pretty much on the same level as working at GM, but that's just my humble opinion.
The one thing that you did fail to mention is that I do, in fact, have reason to complain when the numbers are written in ink and the tax base is declining, and mathematics will, time and time again, prove that what is in place now will not be able to be fiscally maintained much longer.
Did I miss anything? If so, I'd be glad to further educate you, but only on my dime...
So, I did a little research on a couple of local teachers on the site: http://tos.ohio.gov/Teacher_Salary, and you may be a littel shocked to see the results...
Teacher 1: $69,080 - annual salary 7.33 hours worked per day 183 days worked per year $45,592.80 - yearly pension estimate $106,434.37 - pro-rated salary based upon 2080 hours per year $28,152 - max social security payout
Teacher 2: $91,000 - annual salary 8 hours worked per day 260 days worked per year $60,060 - yearly pension estimate $140,207.41 - pro-rated salary based upon 2080 hours per year $28,152 - max social security payout
Now I'm not saying that teachers aren't worth every penny they make, but look at the difference between the pension and what Joe average citizen receives. This equates to a difference of approximately $17,500 per year. Add the fact that most private citizens not only pay into SS, but also dedicate between 10 and 20 percent of their gross income to a 401(k) to potentially receive $45,000 per year in retirement savings. Therefore, Joe average citizen is paying between 16 and 26 percent (plus the 6 percent the company pays) to equate the 10 percent that teachers are paying...which leaves a difference of 12 percent on the low end and 22 percent on the high end.
Also, do teachers retire after 30 years? If so, that makes the average retirement age 52, while the average citizen will retire between ages 65 and 72 which boasts a difference of 13 to 20 years...
Now let's perform a little calculation:
13 years X $45,000 = $585,000 13 years X $17,500 = $227,500
The difference being received by a teacher on the low end of the spectrum is $357,500 over 13 years or $27,500 per year. The difference alone is 86 percent of the Private Sector Yearly Wage in Mahoning county in 2009 (http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/bette...), and that's just the difference....
Now let's take a look at some other figures from http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/bette... the Median Household Income in Mahoning County in 2009 was $39,339. Going back to our low end of the spectrum teacher, $45,000 is the annual pension...this is a difference of $5,661 greater than the Median "Household" Income, as well as a difference of $13,550 greater than the average private sector wage in 2009...
Let's take a look at the what the state pension plan is paying over the course of retirement (now remember, this is only for the low end of the spectrum teacher). The average life expectancy in Ohio (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/us...) is 76.2 years.
Let's subtract the average retirement age of 52 from the average life expectancy of 76.2 years (we'll round to 76 for this example).
76 - 52 = 24 years 24 years X $45,000 = $1,080,000
$1,080,000!!! I've just retired at age 52 as a millionaire!!!
Do you believe injection drilling, a byproduct of fracking, causes earthquakes?
@JME - Yes i did mis-read it...
November 21, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. permalink suggest removal
Cardinals capture state semifinal berth
Congrats to the Cardinal Mooney football team, and to Crestview for making it this far.
Let's get a rally for Western Reserve tonight as they face Shadyside!
Northeast Ohio football is what it's about, not what school you attended!
November 19, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. permalink suggest removal
Do you believe injection drilling, a byproduct of fracking, causes earthquakes?
@JME - I really, don't think that the words "probably" and "could" offer a definitive answer. Now if the article indicated that the spokesman stated "The injections triggered earthquakes in the region", and "...injected into underground deposits, generated earthquakes too, and..." I think that your point may be substantiated.
Does anyone on this board know how many deep injections there are in Ohio (or in the US for that matter), and how long those deep injection wells have been used?
Maybe a little fact finding at the ODNR website (or any of the other DNR websites) should be investigated prior to jumping to conclusions from those that think and those that know...but then again, this is Youngstown and facts are made daily by those with a specific agenda...
November 19, 2011 at 8:19 a.m. permalink suggest removal
Veterans receive bonuses
I just sent in the paperwork to receive mine. I would like to urge all veterans who served during these periods to take 5 minutes ut of your day and file.
November 17, 2011 at 11:21 a.m. permalink suggest removal
Showdown on Issue 2
@SOC - I am aware that teachers do not get social security, I was making the statement that the maximum SS payout would be approximately $28,000.
I tried to present this example in the simplest form, and those that have read it have taken everything out of context. The example theoretically presents what the longevity cost of retirement for a "public" employee is, and how it does not relate to what the average tax payer would receive in retirement benefits.
If you chose to take a moment and look at the link that I presented (from the Secretary of State's of website), you will see that this is "not a lie out there in cyberspace".
Also, if my wife was a teacher in Ohio, I would have her proofread my comments before posting blatant spelling and grammatical errors, and then stating that my was a teacher in Ohio...See how I got off point there?
Again, be informed and educated, by reading the Issue, not the pro and con drivel that obviously swayed AnotherAverageCitizen nor the advertisements on the tv or radio...
November 3, 2011 at 8:29 a.m. permalink suggest removal
Showdown on Issue 2
Here's the link to the that references ORC Sections related to ORC 124.15 as proposed by the 129th General Assembly, i.e. SB 5:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/search/124.15
I do agree that being an educated voter is being a smart voter. By reading the revisions and not listening to the rhetoric (on either side) makes you an educated voter.
P.S. - I looked at the links above, and by reading the pro and con arguments for Issue 2 forced me to read the rest of the document because six statements on each side gives a very convoluted picture of the subject. I've written abstracts that had much more substance than these arguments.
November 2, 2011 at 11:10 p.m. permalink suggest removal
Showdown on Issue 2
@LOL - If you understood what I was talking about, then you would understand that, while even though the teacher utilized in the example doesn't have a tangible million dollars, the teacher has a tangible million dollars...this is public record, and yes, that teacher will retire a millionaire. The average citizen is guaranteed a maximum benefit of about $28,000 per year, beginning around age 65, and this amounts to no where near a million dollars.
Good thing you didn't assume that I knew what I was talking, because I do know what I'm talking about...so, let's say that I'm right, can you disprove my math? I would probably think not, since math is universal (and I learned algebra way before I learned diff eq).
"And as far as the GM bonuses go if you really did follow what was going on the bonuses were reported by vindy a few days ago. They just received $5k added to the $4k they received a while ago and that adds up to $9k." I see here that you can do basic math, however your logic between the public sector employees and those that work at GM is fuzzy. GM makes a product for sale and profit, the public service provides a service based upon income from the public. When the public can no longer afford to purchase an automobile, that industry has, as we've recently seen, two options. Option 1 - fail, or Option 2 - get bailed out by the government. When the public can no longer afford public service, what options are there? My theory would be "fail", and I'm sure there are many who would agree with me on that.
I'm not blaming the public sector for any of this, all I'm stating is that the economy can no longer fiscally support the benefits. I do believe that the majority of public services are very well warranted.
You make a blank statement about whether or not I should be able to vote on this. I really didn't have an opinion on that until now, and yes, the consumer, in this instance, should be able to chose what happens in that sector, since the consumer votes on my sector daily by choosing to patronize me or purchase my wares. I hope that clarified whether or not where the fairness is, but I learned a long time ago that life isn't fair, and it is what we make of it.
"How about you blame the big businesses in the private sector that employ lobbyists and make major campaign contributions that influence how this state is being ran. How about you question how the legislatures inflate their own salary and pensions by passing laws that work in their favor. If youre gonna point a finger make sure you point it all the ones responsible, not the scapegoats." I've never pointed a finger, I based my entire statement on fact, however, you must realize that lobbyists work both sides of the aisle, locally, state wide, and nationally, and as long as we, the people, continue to elect the same people over and over again without recourse for their actions, nothing will ever change.
November 2, 2011 at 10:51 p.m. permalink suggest removal
Showdown on Issue 2
@Oop81269 - I'm not stating that I'm for or against Issue 2, because I haven't made up my mind how I going to vote yet, and frankly, it's no one's damn business but mine.
You statement that "if an employee is SUSPECTED of taking part in a strike he forfits TWICE his daily pay for those days that he is SUSPECTED of having taken part in the strike, but, it is up to the employee to PROVE that he did not take part in the strike (what if he was in the hospital) and has to sign a sworn affidavit and go to court to get his money back." holds no merit whatsoever, if said employee is innocent, said employee should have no problem doing so. I'm actually against any type of strike, especially in the state of economy that the Country is in today, you should feel a sense of pride to even have a job (and trust me, I did lose my job and was unemployed for 9 months before taking a job that pays 50% of what I was making).
While taking into consideration your next statement, "12 People APPOINTED by the Governor, President of the Senate, and the Speaker of the house; all of these get paid out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and reimbursed for all "operating expenses paid for out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and according to Ohio Revised Code 124.15 which means that the can make as much as $32.00 per hour for a 40 hour week and they don't pay for their health care because they are state appointees and get it for FREE! (2) Members shall receive compensation fixed pursuant to division (J)(A) of section 124.15 of the Revised Code and shall be reimbursed from
the school employees health care fund for actual and necessary expenses incurred in the performance of their official duties as members of the board. THEN there are another 18 bureaucrats appointed to watch over these 12, all with the same free ride. Oh and I almost forgot, They also get to hire their own aides and these get paid for out of the SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND. How does any of this sound right to you?", I just read ORC 124.15, and the subsections referred to and I completely missed any reference to what you are stating, therefore, I cannot comment.
November 2, 2011 at 8:52 p.m. permalink suggest removal
Showdown on Issue 2
@LOL - I really did try to break the mathematics down to like a 6th grade level to prove a point, and if you go back and re-read it, you might just understand what I'm talking about.
I am a little unclear as to how many years a teacher must work in order to retire, hence I posed the 30 years as a question.
The public sector is a very hard market to get into. Those screaming that if Issue 2 passes, nepotism and cronyism will be the norm (I've really always thought that was the norm).
I am jealous of no one's job or profession, they chose theirs' and I chose mine. The exception is, however, that I can speak for myself and negotiate for me as necessary (I may be fired "at will", but I'm willing to accept that). Therefore, your point is lost because I do not have the "I want what they have" mentality.
What job do "they" have that I may strive to achieve? I spent 10 years in active service of our Country, and have been deployed numerous times to areas that were awarded with an extra $200 a month for hazardous duty pay...so I think I've probably done a job that was much, much more trying and hard, and I received no where near the compensation "they" do today...guess I can bitch about that...
So, I think it may be safe to assume that either you, or someone close to you works at GM because I, and probably most of the other "private" sector employees didn't know they got a $9,000 bonus. However, I for one, do think that working at McDonald's is pretty much on the same level as working at GM, but that's just my humble opinion.
The one thing that you did fail to mention is that I do, in fact, have reason to complain when the numbers are written in ink and the tax base is declining, and mathematics will, time and time again, prove that what is in place now will not be able to be fiscally maintained much longer.
Did I miss anything? If so, I'd be glad to further educate you, but only on my dime...
November 2, 2011 at 8:27 p.m. permalink suggest removal
LETTERS || Don’t reverse progress in Ohio
So, I did a little research on a couple of local teachers on the site: http://tos.ohio.gov/Teacher_Salary, and you may be a littel shocked to see the results...
Teacher 1:
$69,080 - annual salary
7.33 hours worked per day
183 days worked per year
$45,592.80 - yearly pension estimate
$106,434.37 - pro-rated salary based upon 2080 hours per year
$28,152 - max social security payout
Teacher 2:
$91,000 - annual salary
8 hours worked per day
260 days worked per year
$60,060 - yearly pension estimate
$140,207.41 - pro-rated salary based upon 2080 hours per year
$28,152 - max social security payout
Now I'm not saying that teachers aren't worth every penny they make, but look at the difference between the pension and what Joe average citizen receives. This equates to a difference of approximately $17,500 per year. Add the fact that most private citizens not only pay into SS, but also dedicate between 10 and 20 percent of their gross income to a 401(k) to potentially receive $45,000 per year in retirement savings. Therefore, Joe average citizen is paying between 16 and 26 percent (plus the 6 percent the company pays) to equate the 10 percent that teachers are paying...which leaves a difference of 12 percent on the low end and 22 percent on the high end.
Also, do teachers retire after 30 years? If so, that makes the average retirement age 52, while the average citizen will retire between ages 65 and 72 which boasts a difference of 13 to 20 years...
Now let's perform a little calculation:
13 years X $45,000 = $585,000
13 years X $17,500 = $227,500
The difference being received by a teacher on the low end of the spectrum is $357,500 over 13 years or $27,500 per year. The difference alone is 86 percent of the Private Sector Yearly Wage in Mahoning county in 2009 (http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/bette...), and that's just the difference....
Now let's take a look at some other figures from http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/bette... the Median Household Income in Mahoning County in 2009 was $39,339. Going back to our low end of the spectrum teacher, $45,000 is the annual pension...this is a difference of $5,661 greater than the Median "Household" Income, as well as a difference of $13,550 greater than the average private sector wage in 2009...
Let's take a look at the what the state pension plan is paying over the course of retirement (now remember, this is only for the low end of the spectrum teacher). The average life expectancy in Ohio (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/us...) is 76.2 years.
Let's subtract the average retirement age of 52 from the average life expectancy of 76.2 years (we'll round to 76 for this example).
76 - 52 = 24 years
24 years X $45,000 = $1,080,000
$1,080,000!!! I've just retired at age 52 as a millionaire!!!
November 2, 2011 at 5:23 p.m. permalink suggest removal