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NoBS: It was your exaggeration that started the whole conversation. "The Vindicator recently - a few days ago - referred to Youngstown's firefighters, as well as the rest of the city employees, as rats." The rat characterization would have only applied to those who left, but you expanded it to fit your characterization of hypocrisy by the paper. You maintain that few actually left, but you haven't back that up with any numbers. All you do is assure me that the paper is wrong by your standard of right and wrong. At any rate, you obviously have way more free time to devote to these postings than I, so I'll be excusing myself.
July 12, 2013 at 10:21 a.m.
Now I see how the game is played. You can twist and exaggerate what other people say to your ends, but when you use a word it means just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. (credit to Lewis Carroll)
July 11, 2013 at 5:01 p.m.
No BS. Thanks for the conversation. I think we can also agree that we're starting to beat a dead horse here. While you may see it as moving the goalposts, I'll still await a five-year evaluation of the effects of the General Assembly's substitution of its wisdom for that of the residents of Youngstown regarding residency. And since you're giving me a pass on using a pejorative, I'll give you a pass on your contention that the people of Youngstown are not fit to protect the people of Youngstown.
July 11, 2013 at 10:49 a.m.
Yes, "feeding at the public trough" is pejorative. But I'll repeat my response to your initial criticism: just because we disapprove -- even in strong terms -- to some behaviors of public employees does not mean we're being hypocritical when we find something praise- worthy in public employees. As to how many city employees have jumped ship, it's only been four years since the Ohio Supreme Court upheld the Legislature's prohibition of residency laws. It would seem to me that the five-year mark next year would be a good time to look at how many city employees still live in the city. But I do recall that even before the Supreme Court ruled, one or two guys announced they were moving and virtually dared the city to do something about it. And while it wouldn't qualify as "leaving the ship" it seems to me that relatively few of the city's recent safety force hires have been city residents. Perhaps we'll get a better picture on the five year anniversary.As to Jupiter's remarks: There is no constitutional right to a city job that preempts the right of a city's residents to place residency requirements on their employees. The U.S. Supreme Court has spoken to that. In Ohio, the General Assembly used a phrase in the state Constitution to justify a law it passed that pre-empted the ability of subdivisions to enforce residency laws. That law was pushed by an odd coalition of union-beholden Democrats and libertarian-minded Republicans. As to who has the "courage" to publish their name: newspaper editorials are traditionally not signed by individual writers because they represent the institutional position of the paper (and can be the work of more than one writer). It's not as anonymous as the postings on this board, although I'm using my name; I doubt that you were christened Jupiter.
July 10, 2013 at 5:43 p.m.
The earlier editorial to which you refer described those city employees who who are happy to take a city check but can't abide living in the city as rats deserting a sinking ship. It was not a commentary on all city employees, only those who jumped ship as soon as the Ohio Legislature gave them the ability to do so. You're suggesting that the newspaper shouldn't honor fallen firefighters for their sacrifices unless it endorses the self-serving behavior of every firefighter or city employee. I'd disagree.
July 9, 2013 at 5:55 p.m.
Well, bellybutton, since you like to point out fallacies, here's one for you. Much of your criticism is based on a contention that any discussion of a Tressel presidency is "hype" and "balderdash." And you ask "where did de Sousa come up with the news that YSU is planning to hire Jim Tressel as president?"The short answer is that de Souza never said YSU is planning to hire Jim Tressel. What he said was: "While Tressel is being touted by individuals in the Valley with strong ties to YSU, trustee Chairman Dr. Sudershan Garg has said the former coach would have to go through the application process like everyone else." You're welcome to believe that no one with any influence has been touting Tressel or that Tressel has not talked to anyone about the possibility. But you'd be wrong, just as you've been consistently wrong in the spelling of Bertram's last name.
January 24, 2013 at 12:06 p.m.
I don't often enter these discussions, but when I notice someone just making stuff up ... The Vindicator criticized Strickland more than once for securitization of the tobacco fund. In one of those, June 10, 2007, we even used a phrase, "robbing Peter to pay Paul," which we have used in discussing Kasich's plan for the turnpike.
December 6, 2012 at 10:33 a.m.
An honorable person would be happy to be retiring from a job after 25 or 35 years and "wouldn't 'be sick' the last month, two months, six months, whatever time they have accumulated." That's one of the points of the editorial. A person who has access to sick leave shouldn't have to be bribed not to use it unnecessarily as they approach retirement. Dennis Mangan, editorial page editor
October 3, 2011 at 12:24 p.m.
I am generally content to let editorials speak for themselves. However, regarding posting 6: The editorial supports the contention by the board of trustees that a freeze for one year and small raises the next two, is still more generous than is sustainable in today's economy and that of the foreseeable future.Pointing this out is not equivalent to "hating" the faculty. As to our "bias" against faculty raises, we are, I suppose, equally guilty of having a bias toward controlling the tuition increases that would be necessary to pay those salaries. Dennis Mangan, editorial page editor.
August 14, 2011 at 12:03 p.m.
I'm mystified as to what the student loan default rate for Cincinnati State, a technical and community college about half YSU's size, would have to do with the subject. I doubt you'd want to argue for parity between YSU's salaries and those at CS.
April 15, 2011 at 10:58 a.m.