A patron enters a bar and drinks until he is in a drunken stupor. He leaves and while driving home, hits and kills another person.
The view of the entitled valley residents is that it's the bartenders fault for serving the patron all the drinks.
The view of the responsible and common sense tells you it's the fault of the drunken driver.
Blaming GM and Delphi for agreeing to the contracts rather than seeing a constant stream of labor strikes is humorous. Not only that, but how could GM and Delphi be expected to predict that the cost of health care would go up 3 times the rate of inflation?
Can the employees of GM and Delphi read and comprehend profit and loss statements? Did they see GM losing tens of billions and still not do anything to keep GM viable like offer concessions? Did they just think that GM and Delphi losses were irrelevant to them because they had a "contract".
If my company posts a loss, guess what, no bonuses. In the real world, profits matter. When your company isn't making money, then either they adjust their expenses or risk going under. Evidently the employees thought they weren't in the real world. Welcome to it.
Yeah, Jeff, the stock market has given and taken from me. Lost about $350,000 when the internet bubble burst. That's what investing is about, risk and reward not gaurantees. Made that back by 2004 and made some very good investments since then. Been out of the US stock market since 2007 because I saw the bubble ready to pop. I made good money in 2008 when many were losing their shirts. My husband and I could retire now if we so wished.
This will be my last post on this topic. When it degrades into the typical genital references that are so standard for the valley, it's time to exit the discussion.
Jeff, I understand entirely what's going on. People who directly caused their company to file bankruptcy are whining and trying to change the bankruptcy laws that have been around for decades. They are trying to get enough sympathy from politicians looking for reelection to provide a taxpayer subsidy. Entitlement nation! Whine and cry instead of take control of your own responsibilities. But Delphi promised. Now the taxpayers should pay us for causing our own demise!
Bean counter! I've always liked that name. Bean counters are everywhere and basically control the world. I don't recall saying I was a tax accountant!
Quit your whining. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
I'm a very compassionate person. I just reserve that compassion for people who don't cause their own problems. Everyone at Delphi and GM had a hand in the bankruptcy including salaried employees who were more than happy to get compensated very handsomely based on the union contracts.
I feel sorry for people who have no control of the bad things that happen to them. The employees of those 2 companies had control and refused to see the forest for the trees. Life isn't fair. Get over it.
Bankruptcy is a remedy that is constitutionally based.
I don't see you crying about the bond holders who got the shaft when GM went bankrupt. Many were older retirees who had all their money in GM bonds and are now destitute. You can whine all you want about your pensions being cut by 1/3. How about people without pensions and no health care? Just more white Americans who think just being white in America makes them entitled to a middle class lifestyle. Sorry hon, there are no guarantees.
First off, if it was indeed the fault of GM that your Dad was hurt in the first place, he either: 1. Got a nice settlement payment for not suing or 2. Was a fool for not suing.
Life is not all rosy and wonderful. In fact, it's filled with pain and suffering. My sister was killed in an auto accident. We didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for her funeral or our pain and suffering. My Dad died a few years ago after many years of Altzheimers. We didn't ask the taxpayers for any money. My Mom had cancer and we didn't ask for the taxpayers to help with the cost of surgery and chemo. My Father in Law died a very painful death from cancer and we didn't whine about the costs, time, and suffering. My Mother in Law is now broke and we aren't asking for the taxpayers to pay up.
My parents and in laws also didn't have the benefit of working for the highest paying employer in NE Ohio for many years like your Dad did. Sounds like your parents forgot to save and bought into the free spending mentality.
Everyone has their own sob story. Many far more painful than yours. I wish life was guaranteed and that everything was perfect, it isn't. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for your pain and suffering and I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for mine. That's not cold hearted. That's just fairness. We all have our own issues to deal with and while I'm sorry for your loss, you aren't alone.
If I had a dollar for every time someone thought they were passed over for promotion, I could retire now. The fact that they made your Dad a plant manager sounds like they were more than fair. I know people with doctoral degrees who have never been promoted. Sorry, but not everyone can be a manager and simple longevity doesn't guarantee promotions.
Anyone who takes the word of companies or the government regarding future payments of any kind is setting themselves up to fail. I work for ME, not for my company. I'm no more dedicated to them than they are to me. I work my tail off, but with the continual thought that I am expendable and the companies fortunes could change tomorrow.
Delphi and GM were both driven to bankruptcy by the very employees who are now experiencing the results of that bankruptcy.
ront, the problem with college costs has quite a bit to do with unions. See the latest issue with the ACE union at YSU. A union that has nothing to do with enrollment getting $4500 bonuses for each employee based on improved enrollment?
But most college kids are not getting tax dollar subsidies. They are getting loans and scholarships from various third party groups. Obviously the loans get repaid, eventually.
Redvert is like a broken record. Nothing like people who can't even balance a checkbook telling accountants what caused the financial meltdown. I guess if Limbaugh says it was Fannie and Freddie, it must be so.
Fannie and Freddie were a tiny fraction of the problem. Minuscule really. The problem was indeed abuse. Abuse caused by deregulation of the financial industry that enabled them to concoct financial instruments that many of them can't even explain. Enabled them to take 1 trillion dollars of hard cash and turn it into 40 trillion of leveraged money.
Maybe someday, redvert and the right wing fanatics will understand complex financial instruments but I won't hold my breath.
One more thing. That Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill that opened up the banking system to excesses that caused the meltdown, was pushed hard by its main sponsor, Phil Gramm, Republican from Texas. Mr. Gramm conveniently retired from congress and became a lobbyist for......you guessed it, the banking industry. Follow the money and educate yourself to the facts rather than listening to Beck and Limbaugh and taking their rants as factual.
Ytownboy is correct. The financial meltdown was a result of deregulation under Reagan that gutted the Glass-Steagall act of 1933 that regulated the banking industry. The final nail in the coffin was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill in 1999 that the Republicans pushed through to give the banking industry free reign to leverage up and start to create and trade in Mortgage backed securities. The MBS's, called credit default swaps (not wasps) were basically worthless in the grand scheme of things and were based on the fact that nobody thought the real estate bubble would ever burst because of low interest rates that Greenspan pushed far too long. The Bush SEC took a hands off approach and allowed firms like Lehman, Bear Stearns, and others to take massive risk via leverage to the tune on 30-40 to 1. When the house of cards started to fold, the whole thing collapsed. Fannie and Freddie were not much more than a clearinghouse for mortgages and the subprime mortgages were a problem for them. Had it been just the subprime mortgages, it never would have almost caused the collapse of the financial system. I know you Conservatives like to blame Liberals and regulation for the demise but is just isn't true.
As for the above poster who points to Ford as a poster child of management greatness and viability, remember that Ford nearly went bankrupt also. Their stock was around a dollar a share. The only reason they didn't fail is Alan Mulally (Ford's CEO) borrowed tons of money before the meltdown and therefore never had the cash crunch that GM and Chrysler experienced. But, that borrowing has a downside. Now that GM and Chrysler have gone through bankruptcy, they have no debt and now have a competitive advantage over Ford who has tons of debt. This is one of the arguments against a government bailout of GM and Chrysler. Ford is now at a disadvantage to the bailed out companies. Luckily Ford has momentum, new products, and an improved image based on not having to get a government bailout. If GM and Chrysler succeed, it might be at Ford's expense.
As for picking up the tab for the financial industry, the alternative would have been very ugly. Plus, the industry, with a very kind yield curve can make tons of money and pay it back. Many have already done so and most of the at risk firms are now making tons of money. The risk of not bailing them out was great. The risk of bailing them out was minimal.
Those GM and Delphi people are NOT losing their life savings. In fact, most of them are still going to be making far more than most people. Sorry, but I'm more than happy helping people who need help and do quite often. People who face bad times through no fault of their own. I just don't feel sorry for people who seemingly had the world by the tail and rode it into the ground.
$80,000? That's just salary Cambridge. Bonus is quite another story. Plus stock options. You do understand how salary, bonus, and options works don't you? Regardless, I'm not on a high horse. Just very proud that I wasn't so dumb as to both cause my company to go bankrupt and then cry to the taxpayers for a bailout. Proud that we are self sufficient and personally responsible. Sorry that whiny entitlement mentality people are the norm in NE Ohio. They caused their owns demise and now want the taxpayers to pay for their stupidity? That is the epitome of the valley mentality.
Posted on October 22 at 3:41 p.m.
A patron enters a bar and drinks until he is in a drunken stupor. He leaves and while driving home, hits and kills another person.
The view of the entitled valley residents is that it's the bartenders fault for serving the patron all the drinks.
The view of the responsible and common sense tells you it's the fault of the drunken driver.
Blaming GM and Delphi for agreeing to the contracts rather than seeing a constant stream of labor strikes is humorous. Not only that, but how could GM and Delphi be expected to predict that the cost of health care would go up 3 times the rate of inflation?
Can the employees of GM and Delphi read and comprehend profit and loss statements? Did they see GM losing tens of billions and still not do anything to keep GM viable like offer concessions? Did they just think that GM and Delphi losses were irrelevant to them because they had a "contract".
If my company posts a loss, guess what, no bonuses. In the real world, profits matter. When your company isn't making money, then either they adjust their expenses or risk going under. Evidently the employees thought they weren't in the real world. Welcome to it.
Yeah, Jeff, the stock market has given and taken from me. Lost about $350,000 when the internet bubble burst. That's what investing is about, risk and reward not gaurantees. Made that back by 2004 and made some very good investments since then. Been out of the US stock market since 2007 because I saw the bubble ready to pop. I made good money in 2008 when many were losing their shirts. My husband and I could retire now if we so wished.
This will be my last post on this topic. When it degrades into the typical genital references that are so standard for the valley, it's time to exit the discussion.
Posted on October 22 at 2:33 p.m.
Jeff, I understand entirely what's going on. People who directly caused their company to file bankruptcy are whining and trying to change the bankruptcy laws that have been around for decades. They are trying to get enough sympathy from politicians looking for reelection to provide a taxpayer subsidy. Entitlement nation! Whine and cry instead of take control of your own responsibilities. But Delphi promised. Now the taxpayers should pay us for causing our own demise!
Bean counter! I've always liked that name. Bean counters are everywhere and basically control the world. I don't recall saying I was a tax accountant!
Quit your whining. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
Posted on October 22 at 2:08 p.m.
I'm a very compassionate person. I just reserve that compassion for people who don't cause their own problems. Everyone at Delphi and GM had a hand in the bankruptcy including salaried employees who were more than happy to get compensated very handsomely based on the union contracts.
I feel sorry for people who have no control of the bad things that happen to them. The employees of those 2 companies had control and refused to see the forest for the trees. Life isn't fair. Get over it.
Bankruptcy is a remedy that is constitutionally based.
I don't see you crying about the bond holders who got the shaft when GM went bankrupt. Many were older retirees who had all their money in GM bonds and are now destitute. You can whine all you want about your pensions being cut by 1/3. How about people without pensions and no health care? Just more white Americans who think just being white in America makes them entitled to a middle class lifestyle. Sorry hon, there are no guarantees.
Posted on October 22 at 1:05 p.m.
Wow, took me a while to dry up my tears.
First off, if it was indeed the fault of GM that your Dad was hurt in the first place, he either: 1. Got a nice settlement payment for not suing or 2. Was a fool for not suing.
Life is not all rosy and wonderful. In fact, it's filled with pain and suffering. My sister was killed in an auto accident. We didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for her funeral or our pain and suffering. My Dad died a few years ago after many years of Altzheimers. We didn't ask the taxpayers for any money. My Mom had cancer and we didn't ask for the taxpayers to help with the cost of surgery and chemo. My Father in Law died a very painful death from cancer and we didn't whine about the costs, time, and suffering. My Mother in Law is now broke and we aren't asking for the taxpayers to pay up.
My parents and in laws also didn't have the benefit of working for the highest paying employer in NE Ohio for many years like your Dad did. Sounds like your parents forgot to save and bought into the free spending mentality.
Everyone has their own sob story. Many far more painful than yours. I wish life was guaranteed and that everything was perfect, it isn't. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for your pain and suffering and I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for mine. That's not cold hearted. That's just fairness. We all have our own issues to deal with and while I'm sorry for your loss, you aren't alone.
If I had a dollar for every time someone thought they were passed over for promotion, I could retire now. The fact that they made your Dad a plant manager sounds like they were more than fair. I know people with doctoral degrees who have never been promoted. Sorry, but not everyone can be a manager and simple longevity doesn't guarantee promotions.
Anyone who takes the word of companies or the government regarding future payments of any kind is setting themselves up to fail. I work for ME, not for my company. I'm no more dedicated to them than they are to me. I work my tail off, but with the continual thought that I am expendable and the companies fortunes could change tomorrow.
Delphi and GM were both driven to bankruptcy by the very employees who are now experiencing the results of that bankruptcy.
Posted on October 21 at 5:33 p.m.
ront, the problem with college costs has quite a bit to do with unions. See the latest issue with the ACE union at YSU. A union that has nothing to do with enrollment getting $4500 bonuses for each employee based on improved enrollment?
But most college kids are not getting tax dollar subsidies. They are getting loans and scholarships from various third party groups. Obviously the loans get repaid, eventually.
Posted on October 21 at 12:53 p.m.
Redvert is like a broken record. Nothing like people who can't even balance a checkbook telling accountants what caused the financial meltdown. I guess if Limbaugh says it was Fannie and Freddie, it must be so.
Fannie and Freddie were a tiny fraction of the problem. Minuscule really. The problem was indeed abuse. Abuse caused by deregulation of the financial industry that enabled them to concoct financial instruments that many of them can't even explain. Enabled them to take 1 trillion dollars of hard cash and turn it into 40 trillion of leveraged money.
Maybe someday, redvert and the right wing fanatics will understand complex financial instruments but I won't hold my breath.
Posted on October 21 at 11:48 a.m.
One more thing. That Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill that opened up the banking system to excesses that caused the meltdown, was pushed hard by its main sponsor, Phil Gramm, Republican from Texas. Mr. Gramm conveniently retired from congress and became a lobbyist for......you guessed it, the banking industry. Follow the money and educate yourself to the facts rather than listening to Beck and Limbaugh and taking their rants as factual.
Posted on October 21 at 11:31 a.m.
Ytownboy is correct. The financial meltdown was a result of deregulation under Reagan that gutted the Glass-Steagall act of 1933 that regulated the banking industry. The final nail in the coffin was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill in 1999 that the Republicans pushed through to give the banking industry free reign to leverage up and start to create and trade in Mortgage backed securities. The MBS's, called credit default swaps (not wasps) were basically worthless in the grand scheme of things and were based on the fact that nobody thought the real estate bubble would ever burst because of low interest rates that Greenspan pushed far too long. The Bush SEC took a hands off approach and allowed firms like Lehman, Bear Stearns, and others to take massive risk via leverage to the tune on 30-40 to 1. When the house of cards started to fold, the whole thing collapsed. Fannie and Freddie were not much more than a clearinghouse for mortgages and the subprime mortgages were a problem for them. Had it been just the subprime mortgages, it never would have almost caused the collapse of the financial system. I know you Conservatives like to blame Liberals and regulation for the demise but is just isn't true.
As for the above poster who points to Ford as a poster child of management greatness and viability, remember that Ford nearly went bankrupt also. Their stock was around a dollar a share. The only reason they didn't fail is Alan Mulally (Ford's CEO) borrowed tons of money before the meltdown and therefore never had the cash crunch that GM and Chrysler experienced. But, that borrowing has a downside. Now that GM and Chrysler have gone through bankruptcy, they have no debt and now have a competitive advantage over Ford who has tons of debt. This is one of the arguments against a government bailout of GM and Chrysler. Ford is now at a disadvantage to the bailed out companies. Luckily Ford has momentum, new products, and an improved image based on not having to get a government bailout. If GM and Chrysler succeed, it might be at Ford's expense.
As for picking up the tab for the financial industry, the alternative would have been very ugly. Plus, the industry, with a very kind yield curve can make tons of money and pay it back. Many have already done so and most of the at risk firms are now making tons of money. The risk of not bailing them out was great. The risk of bailing them out was minimal.
Posted on October 20 at 5:21 p.m.
Jeff, don't hold your breath!
Those GM and Delphi people are NOT losing their life savings. In fact, most of them are still going to be making far more than most people. Sorry, but I'm more than happy helping people who need help and do quite often. People who face bad times through no fault of their own. I just don't feel sorry for people who seemingly had the world by the tail and rode it into the ground.
Posted on October 20 at 4:15 p.m.
$80,000? That's just salary Cambridge. Bonus is quite another story. Plus stock options. You do understand how salary, bonus, and options works don't you? Regardless, I'm not on a high horse. Just very proud that I wasn't so dumb as to both cause my company to go bankrupt and then cry to the taxpayers for a bailout. Proud that we are self sufficient and personally responsible. Sorry that whiny entitlement mentality people are the norm in NE Ohio. They caused their owns demise and now want the taxpayers to pay for their stupidity? That is the epitome of the valley mentality.