Do you believe the president and Congress will be able to reform health care?

I believe the insurance companies are to powerful to let it happen and along with Rupert Murdoch and his talking heads pumping up the propaganda, health care in this country will keep going in the direction it's going in now.

They can't even run the government which has had a deficit since forever and now they wnat to take over the insurance business. No way. We need to find a better solution but twisting peoples arms into insurance is not the answer.

Paulydel....We haven't always had a deficit. Clinton had a 2 trillion dollar surplus. Bush squandered it and doubled the debt.

The government doesn't want to take over the insurance business. They want to give an option compared two what we have now.

http://answers.google.com/answers/thr...

If "reform" is a euphemism for destroy, then my answer is yes.

If "reform" means improve, then my answer is no.

This is not complicated. Socialized medicine has failed everywhere, including already in the USA. It will result in delays and denials in care...it always does. It is a transfer of resources from the elderly to illegal aliens and younger citizens.

Rather than drop yet another socialist atomic bomb on the citizens of the USA, we could do something less radical like tort reform, improved ED admission screening, and free market reforms.

I hope they can get a quality system passed, but I remain doubtful. There are far too many "big money" players with a stake in the game. For example, the pharmaceutical companies have already spent 40 million lobbying their case. And their success so far is indicated by the lack of mechanisms to reduce the cost of drugs in any of the plans.

These companies are building on the success they enjoyed when they told dubya to push through their 450 million drug plan a few years back. He, in his well-honed role as lapdog for big business, aquiesced without a whimper.

Is there any reason to think things have changed enough to get a good bill through? I doesn't look like it. Big money still carries big clout.

BTW: It's good to see that the anti-socialists are back touting their belief that this dead philosophy is once again threatening to bring down society as we know it. I've missed you guys, but I've remained vigilant.

The Quail

Quail,

I remain optimistic that this bill will and should pass, I think both sides realize this. But only with modifications, and because of this, I'm glad it was not rushed through. I'm not one for mixing Health Care Bureaucracy with Government Bureaucracy, Health care Bureaucracy is bad enough let alone the latter.

I do believe we need to reduce the cost of health care and agree with Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele's belief that insurance companies should be allowed to compete across state lines and allow the free market forces to cut costs for Americans.

Remember a few years back when Americans were buying their prescription medicine from Canadian Pharmacies at a lower cost. That's because Americans were buying prescription drugs at American market prices, not global market prices. And, the Drug Companies expect Americans to bear the brunt of Research and Development while other Countries reap the benefits of lower prescription costs and our Government backs them up due to their strong lobbies and influence.

Have a great weekend

ProMerkin,

You are referring to a few "one off" situations publicized by those who are against a U.S. health plan. In reality, higher %'s of Canadians and British citizens are very satisfied with their health care.

I personally have relatives who live near Toronto, and they are pretty satisfied with what they have. There are occasional waits, but nothing like you see on those scare tactic commercials.

I work for a company with an office in Great Britain. I've asked several of my associates there about their plan, and they are all pretty satisfied too.

The below is from a 2003 Gallup Poll. I am reluctant to accept the results of just one poll, but the majority of the studies that I've seen echo these results.

"According many polls, higher percentages of Canadians and the British citizens are satisfied
The Availability of Affordable Healthcare

One-fourth of American respondents are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation," (6% very satisfied and 19% somewhat satisfied). This level of satisfaction is significantly lower than in Canada, where 57% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, including 16% who are very satisfied. Roughly 4 in 10 Britons are satisfied (43%), but only 7% say they are very satisfied (similar to the percentage very satisfied in the United States).

Looking at the other side of the coin, 44% of Americans are very dissatisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, and nearly three-fourths (72%) are either somewhat or very dissatisfied. The 44% in the United States who are very dissatisfied with healthcare availability is significantly higher than corresponding figures in either Canada (17%) or Great Britain (25%)."

ProMerkin, this is an important issue. It would be better for all of us if you would check into the truth before making up your mind, rather than just spouting the usual "anti-lib" party line. But . . . I guess if you actually did that, I wouldn't be able to call you a neo-con anymore, now would I?

The Quail

Here is an earlier quote from ProMerkin

"There would be NO America without white Europeans. Do you seriously believe America would have materialized through the efforts of "native Americans? Impossible. White Europeans created a much better world than anyone else could have imagined."

Here's today's quote from ProMerkin:

"Europeans are idiots who like no brainer solutions and don't mind being slaves to bid daddy government."

This poor soul has been tossing mindless rhetoric so long he's even confusing himself!

I especially love this line: "Let the free market prevail, I agree with you because you stated Canadians can purchase drugs at a more competitve price, the reason the world free market [sic]."

My response: WHAT??

I am so happy we still have free speech in this country. It allows individuals such as this todemonstrate their ignorance and hypocrisy for all the world to see.

Have a great weekend all!
The Quail

philobeto.....The R&D argument by drug companies is just more of their propaganda. R&D is a fraction of their expense compared 2 what they spend on marketing and now more propaganda to defeat health care reform. The links below are worth the read.

Below is a link how the United States health care system is ranked by the "World Health Organisation" compared with other countries. We are ranked 37th. Just below Cost Rica and just above Slovenia while we pay twice as much as anyone else for health care to achieve that ranking.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healt...

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244

ProMerkin.....EVERY western European nation and the idiots you claim that live there live in countries who's health care is ranked above ours by the "World Health Organisation".

Instead of going on your rants, "the socialist are coming the socialist are coming", why don't you look at the real facts regarding the state of health care in this country. Your only answer is to call people names and blab, "I pay my own health care." So what that's not the point, my health care is provided by my union. When I worked through the union I paid for the health care of the retired, When I retired, they pay for mine. If an option that is cheaper is maid available they can take part of what they pay for theirs and my health care and put it on their paycheck. That money can be spent and will stimulate the economy instead of adding to the hundreds of billions going to the insurance and drug companies.

For all of you that think this option will be a failure, then let it fail. If the plan will be so much worse than what is out there now no one will choose it and it will go away. Why do you think the insurance and drug companies are spending millions to make sure this option isn't available? Wake up.

ProMerkin.....All your ProNazi rants just prove how ignorant you are. First of all I worked as a construction worker for two thirds of my carrier and in design and engineering for the last third. When I worked in the union, the union negotiated a total wage package, the contractors association had no say in how that money was divided up. What went to wages, pension, health care, apprentice training etc. was decided on by the union. The union officials presented the membership with recommendations on how to split up the money at union meetings. The membership discussed how the package would be split up and a final vote was the final wage package.

As far as your lol at the World Health Organisation maybe you could provide some proof from one of you Nazi web sites that proves that the United States is not ranked 37th in the world in health care. You could always quote your God Rupert Murdoch the leader of the Republican Nazi party.

From CBS.com:

Congressional Budget Office Director Doug Elmendorf told the Senate Budget Committee that none of the bills he has seen would contain health care costs to reduce them significantly over time. This is the main argument offered by Obama and Democrats as to why Congress can spend $1 trillion and save money.

“In the legislation that has been reported we do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount,” Elmendorf said.

“And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs.”

The NHS is scheduled to go bankrupt in 2 years, and that's after denying chemo to women with stage 4 breast cancer. And yet, posters here want the NHS model adopted here.

Does 1+1 not equal 2 to everybody?

Oh that's right, Obama promises that it will be budget neutral. How's his honesty track record thus far? (No jobs for lobbyists, earmark reform, no tax increases on the bottom 95%,"sunlight before signing", transparancy, Out of Iraq in 16 mos...I'm tired so I'm gonna move on...)

Why does the bill reported out by Rep. Charlie Rangel's Ways and Means Committee leaves $550 billion unfunded?

All of the facts and experience with government-run health care indicate that it won't work, and only rhetoric and promises claims it will.

ProMerkin.....More Republican-Nazi Party BS. It's all you have. Whether people choose to belong to a union or not isn't yours or anyone else's business. The President of my union is an unpaid position. The business agents are paid journeyman wages and the business manager is paid foreman's wages.

The Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic and John Hopkins are the models for Obama's reform on health care. The doctors that work there are employees not business men. They do their job. They are aloud to be doctors. That system is so far removed from the experience of the average American it's not funny. Your just to stupid and blinded by your Fascist beliefs taught to you by your Nazi leader Rupert Murdoch to get it.

All of you Fascist hate freedom and don't want the American people to have an option for their health care other than to get ripped off by by the insurance and drug companies that have all your Republican-Nazi Party politicians in their pockets.

The Cambridge Quail likes to soft shoe to the exhilarating beat of the BamaRap AKA Socialist Shuffle .

Stan the Man Unusual.....I'm sure you prefer the Goose Step AKA The Republican-Nazi Party Polka.

One two step on who ? In your realm of political correctness it would be impolite for me to criticize your leader .

Would it be OK to post his picture ?

http://www.patriotscreed.com/sitebuil...

hope4thevalley :

I see that you have been to CambridgeQuails writing class !

"All they can is call names."

Stan the Man Unusual.....Please feel free to post my username next to Quails anytime. I consider it a complement.

Hope....I hear what you are saying but I'm not arguing with them. I'm having fun making a point and showing them how redulous their posts and narrow minded point of view is. There is always that possibility of them seeing what they sound like and actually try to have some intelligent duologue
without rants and name calling. I respect you and I hope you can see what the spirit of my post to these nut jobs is really all about.

ProMerkin.....Although you Fascist are against it, if we had a British health plan our health care ranking would go from 37th in the world to 18th. It's to bad you and the rest of the Nazi's would rather see Americans hard earned money go to insurance and drug companies than keep it themselves. But you need to stay in the herd and follow you shepard Rupert.

It seems another Nazi quality is to never post without mentioning unions. You know I have a golfing buddy that belonged to my union. When he retired he took his 401K money to a broker other than the one provided by the union. They invested his money and I left mine with the unions investment broker. My 401K has out performed his every quarter every year. But wait there's more. His fee is based on his original investment. 1%. That's $1,000 for every $100,000. He is paying thousands every year for worse management. Because my union is pooled with others and hundreds of millions are involved they negotiated a rate to manage our accounts. We pay $25 a quarter. That's $100 a year. He is considering buying a vacation home in the Sierra Mountains. Even if he took most of his money out he is still on the hook for that thousands a year based on his original investment. If we both lived another 30 years I would pay $3,000 to manage my account and his bill would approach $100,000.

I'm sure it upsets you and the rest of the Nazis that my union gives me the freedom to keep my money and not turn it over to some investment house but all you Fascist are against freedom anyway. I didn't belong to a union because i needed to, I belonged to one because I was smart enough to take advantage to what they had to offer. They turned out to be the foundation the made me very well off by anyone's standards. What have your Fascist done for you?

A statement from the Mayo Clinic re: Obamacare:

"Under the current Medicare system, a majority of doctors and hospitals that care for Medicare patients are paid substantially less than it costs to treat them. Many providers are therefore already approaching a point where they can not afford to see Medicare patients. Expansion of a Medicare-type plan without a method to define, measure, and pay for healthy outcomes for patients will move many doctors and hospitals across this threshold, and ultimately hurt the patients who seek our care. We should not put more Americans into the current unsustainable system."

Even though some health care providers are employees now doesn't mean that Obamacare would work. When he cuts providers' incomes, less providers will be available to service patients. Like Canada et al, delays in care will increase. Not rocket science. This is not new ground we're trailblazing...it's been done and failed every time.

Health Care, Cap and Trade hope it all goes down in a ball of flames. So get a job and get a life. And if that don't work get 2 jobs.

ProMerkin.....I answered your question regarding what the president of my union makes in post 27. I guess your so blinded by your Fascist propaganda you missed it. The president of my union runs the meetings and serves on committees. He is not paid by the union. He works in the field like everyone else. The only people paid by my union are office workers who belong to their own union, three business agents that make journeyman wages and the business manager that makes foreman's wages. My union has nothing to do with organized crime. Any member can walk in anytime with an accountant and lawyer and demand to see the books.

I didn't know my union promoted amnesty for illegal aliens and wants to tax me. Since you mentioned it, I do have a private pension along with a 401K which is part of the wage package my union negotiates. You seem to think you know a lot about my union but so far everything you have said is incorrect. I don't think your Nazi leader Rupert Murdoch is a very reliable source of information.

As far as decertifying the union, why would anyone want to do that? That would be pretty stupid. Anyone that wants to quit the union is free to leave anytime they want. If you wanted to stay in the business of building oil refineries, power plants, cross country pipelines, micro electronic and bio pharmaceutical fabs those jobs are all union. You could always work for a non union maintenance contractor in those facilities for half the money and no pension or health benefits. I know you Nazis hate the fact that we Americans are free to belong to unions but you'll just have to live with it.

I think Fascism has made you delusional into thinking you know what goes on in other peoples lives. What do you expect from a Socialist, Nazi, Fascist, Communist liar?

Cambridge,

Excellent post. I was a member of a union for 17 years and sat on the executive committee that negotiated three local labor contracts. I now work in middle-management of a publically-traded software company. I've been there for almost ten years. So, I've seen both sides of the coin.

On one side, you have fanatical neo-cons like promerkin who hate unions and pretty much blame them for the downfall of the country. On the other side, you'll find a few union members who blame corporate America for all the problems that befall labor.

In reality, both fringe attitudes are wrong. The vast majority of union members are hard-working honest Americans who are trying to get fair treatment for an honest day's work. Promerkin and his ilk choose to focus on the rare instances of abuse and treat it as the norm (doing this is a specialty of Limbaugh).

On the other hand, most businesses really do care for the most part about their employees (it makes good business sense to do so) and try to take care of them the best they can—within the constraints of needing to keep the board members and shareholders happy.

Over the past 100 years or so, both labor and business have had their problems, scandals, etc., but on the whole, both have contributed to the amazing prosperity and growth experienced by our country. It's been an uneasy balance balance of power between the two, but I hope it continues.

Promerkin: Social Security is not bankrupt. Where in the world did you come up with that gem? You're not making stuff up like Stanley did are you? I sure wouldn't want to have to toss you into the "Do Not Respond to this Dishonorable Person" folder with him. You would not like that . . . I heard that Stanley doesn't bathe regularly (somethin' about bathing is a "socialist activity"). Oh well, he's a strange, strange man.

The Quail

ProMerkin....Unions are not against short sleeve shirts, free speech or for amnesty for illegals. Your just a go-fer for the Nazi cesspool that wants to take the freedom of health care options and the freedom to belong to a union from Americans. Your dream of a Fascist society with Rupert Murdoch as its leader will be defeated.

Cambridge,

For someone who likes national health care, cap and trade and other big government programs you seem to like to throw the term fascist and nazi around quite a bit.

Fascism isn't a thing of the right in fact Mussolini was a big fan of socialism thats what we consider the left now. He often carried around the communist manifesto with him during his younger years. I recommend you read the book liberal fascism. Maybe you'll be a little bit slower to call someone a Nazi if you hear what some of their positions actually were.

Search4Answers.....you need to read between the lines, consider who my post is directed to and what comments that person made to result in my comment.

Since my comment was directed to a crazy person it really wasn't meant to make sense. Your a young man, loosen up. Remember, it's only a movie.

Why do most posters to this forum resort to name calling and citing uninformed data or that which I can hear by tuning into Rush Limbaugh? Doesn't anyone research the topic before forming an opinion? Take the time to read various legislation and determine how it truly relates to you. I own several small businesses and through my experience I can say I believe health care reform seems to be necessary. Record profits, by the Insurance industry, followed by a 24% increase in premiums is greed, pure and simple. I do not see socialized or government run health care anywhere in the current bill. I do see competition being increased in an effort to force a more competitive bidding process.
Some of the legislation I can accept....some of the bill needs revised. The final outcome will be determined by which side of the aisle accepts the most in bribes as they are all on the take.
Quail...I do enjoy your comments. Please keep posting.

Government run healthcare! Yeah, thats what I want. They have already shown us how good they are at it. Just talk to anyone about the V.A. Hospitals. Horror stories.

I believe the V.A. hospitals should be closed. Anyone that served their country and is in need of medical care should be able to pick any doctor, hospital or clinic. The current system can be particularly hard on veterans that live in rural areas where V.A. hospitals a not nearby.

You make me laugh. :- )

Would someone post the section of the Health Care Bill that mandates we join a Government Run Program. As I read it..I can maintain my current insurance, and nothing changes, or there will be a new policy available, at a lesser cost, for those that cannot afford private insurance. The new insurance still requires a premium be paid if you want to enrol. Those that qualify as poor or indigent would receive a subsidy...probably like medi-care or medicaid. I believe those programs are readily available now so I fail to see the cliff that many say we are headed towards.

None will receive proper health care if the hospitals keep closing because they do not receive payment for their services.
Those most afraid of the change are the current insurance providers that will no longer collect windfall profits at the average persons expense.
Just capping malpractice lawsuits will not solve the problem but it will help in the final goal.
With our Country 37th in quality of Health Care I would take pride in moving up the list rather than down.

ProMerkin,

At least try to take a stab at accuracy here. SOME unions have taken a position on the topic, others have not. I know for a fact that the IBEW has not and the CWA has not.

Also, why do you only highlight unions? Do you forget that dubya hisself and many true conservatives also supported an amnesty program?

And here's the coolest thing of all: We are probably going to see some type of nationalized health care program, and guess what . . . you ARE going to help pay for it, whether you like it or not. And there is not a darn thing you can do about it. You finally will get experience how we felt, when dubya and his thugs dragged this country into a war on his search from imaginary WMDs.

At least I agree with you on something: the left DOES deserve a national health care program. And we get to make you neo-coms help pay for it! Isn't that awesome?!?! After eight years of dubya, life is so good.

The Quail

ProAmerican...I have read through the bill and failed to see the stipulation you referenced. I understood it to say I can maintain my current coverage. The version I read did say everyone must secure some sort of insurance...but I do not know if that has been revised.
Thanks for the heads up. I have enjoyed the debate between you and Quail.

Freethinker,

Wow. I'm impressed. You read the 13 pound, >1000 page HR3200?! Not even the legislators have read it. Maybe after yet another rebuke by the nonpartisan CBO, the moniker, "America's Affordable Health Choice's Act" should be changed to "We're tripling the debt in 10 years Act" or "Let's make people not yet born pay for our stuff Act."

Regarding keeping your existing insurance, it clear by now that this administration likes Federalizing stuff. They likely (obviously it is not written in the bill) will undercut private insurers until they too are consumed by the government (ala GM, banks, etc).

In fact, a July 17 study by the Lewin Group that was commissioned by the Heritage Foundation projects that if the House bill becomes law, 83.4 million people—nearly half of those with private coverage—will lose private insurance as employers drop their plans. Personally, I've heard some people who've already been informed by their employers that they would be switched to the cheaper Federal plan from their current private insurance.

80% of Americans oppose giving free health care to illegal aliens and it is time that the Congress supports the will of the people!

Section 242 of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 prohibits "undocumented aliens" from receiving health care, but does not prescribe a method for preventing illegal aliens from receiving health care.

Please require each recipient of the affordability credit created under the bill to also have their eligibility verified by the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) systems. This would ensure that illegal aliens who buy private insurance could not receive taxpayer-funded handouts to help offset (or, perhaps, completely pay for) the cost of their insurance premiums.

Nonsocialist,

The bill is nearly 1,500 pages but is in constant revision. It is still a moving target. I'll reserve final comment until I see what is truly being voted on.

As stated before...both sides of the aisle are corrupt and the highest bidder will have the larger say in the final draft.
I do not see socialism at work as I have not recognized much difference between the previous administration and the current one. I have no problem with forcing the health care insurers into a more competitive arena. I just do not want anyone to have to compete against business funded by their own money. i.e. tax dollars.
As many corporations avoid taxes by forming off shore holding companies then they do not receive much sympathy from me. Bring on the free market and the best product for the dollar will survive and prosper.

FT

ProMerkin,

Yeah, you have left me bloodied and battered, but I'll soldier on. I know that I have no hope of ever debating adequately with someone who possesses your rhetorical prowess and finely-crafted arsenal of challenging aguments. Every time I try, I fall into the nasty habit of trying to use logic and truth against someone who makes up "facts," flip-flops consistently in his arguments, and refuses to answer questions.

However, I'll try yet once again. Except this time, I'll try to answer the Vindy's question using your rhetorical style:

I believe that Obama will give us all health care for free and the Office of the DEosp and the minister of RESS has determined that the new program will not only eradicate all disease, but will make is all millionaires by October. Also, the religious elements in this country have determined that Obama is indeed, god. Also health care will happen because all the right wing cons want to kill all doctors who mention the word abortion, and I have ninety-two internet URLs that prove I'm right. Also, Hitler is alive and the Nazi's are poised to take over the country and the world will end in 2012 because the radical conservative Mayans said so. And not only that, all conservative satan worshipers are nothing but big losers.

Wow, writing complete and utter BS is exhausting! ProMerkin: How ever do you do it? You must be in great shape!

Regards,
The Quail

Darn ProMerkin. Ya got me again!

You have got to be one of the most astute, logical, intelligent neo-con whackos I believe I've ever encountered. I'll never be able to match your level of rhetorical eptitude. (Thanks for that, mother earth!)

No wonder the dems were able to gain control of the presidency and congress so easily.

I'm going out of town for a few days. Have a great weekend all.

The Quail