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Anti-fracking measure on Nov. ballot


Published: Sat, September 7, 2013 @ 12:01 a.m.

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Mahoning County Board of Elections members Dave Betras, left, Robert Wasko,center , and Chairman Mark E. Munroe during 9-6-13 meeting.

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Audience erupts in applause after Mahoning County Bd of Elections announced Community Bill of Rights will remain on ballot during Friday 9-6-13 meeting. In foreground are Jane Spies, left, of Hubbard and Trudee Weatherby of Youngstown.

By DAVID SKOLNICK

skolnick@vindy.com

YOUNGSTOWN

Only four minutes before the start of a Mahoning County Board of Elections’ hearing to consider the validity of a citizen-initiated charter amendment to ban fracking in Youngstown, those who filed the challenge withdrew it.

“It is a good day for democracy,” said Susie Beiersdorfer, a member of the Youngstown Community Bill of Rights Committee, which backs the charter amendment. “We the people certainly won.”

Concerns regarding conflicts of interest among board members played a factor in the withdrawal, according to a Friday statement from the Youngstown/Warren Regional Chamber.

The chamber hired Lavelle and Associates, an Athens law firm, to challenge the legality of the anti-fracking proposal.

“We strongly believe the board of elections has the ability and duty to prevent a misleading, poorly constructed and unenforceable charter amendment from going before the voters,” said Tony Paglia, the chamber’s vice president of government and media affairs. “However, moving forward with a protest would needlessly cloud this issue with concerns over board of elections conflicts of interests and board member recusals.”

A week ago, however, Paglia defended the objectivity of the board of elections members.

Two board members — vice chairman David Betras, who also is the head of the county Democratic Party, and Republican Tracey Winbush — are members of the Mahoning Valley Coalition for Job Growth and Investment, a group organized largely by the chamber to oppose the charter amendment.

Betras and Winbush publicly urged voters to reject the anti-fracking amendment in May and for people not to sign petitions to get the proposal on the November ballot.

Board Chairman Mark Munroe, who also is the county’s GOP chairman, had asked fellow Republicans to support oil and gas drilling in opposition to an anti-fracking rally in Warren in late July.

Winbush and Munroe said they could be objective.

But Betras said because he is “so vocal on this issue,” if the hearing occurred, “I wouldn’t have participated.”

The board voted 3-0, with Betras abstaining, to put the anti-fracking amendment on the Nov. 5 ballot.

About 50 supporters of the charter amendment packed the board of elections’ meeting room with several people standing. They cheered when Munroe said the objection had been withdrawn.

The chamber-backed protest was filed on behalf of five city residents: George Popovich of East Florida Avenue, Tom Loney of Burma Drive, Rosemary Miller of West Indianola Avenue, Robert M. Ogden of Heather Lane and George Cintron of Greeley Lane.

The Youngstown Community Bill of Rights Committee needed at least 1,562 valid signatures on petitions to get the issue back on the ballot.

The board of elections found 1,621 valid signatures among the 2,450 the group submitted.

A similar proposal was defeated in May, 56.85 percent to 43.15 percent.

Sean Kelly, a Cleveland lawyer who represents the bill of rights committee, said, “The board of elections doesn’t have the authority to determine the validity of charter amendments. That’s governed by the Ohio Constitution. Boards of elections don’t have the authority to determine unsettled points of law such as municipalities having the right to exert any control locally over oil and gas. That’s a matter for the [state] Supreme Court.”

As for the withdrawal, Kelly said, “This victory belongs to the people of Youngstown who worked so hard to collect signatures and bring this to the ballot.”

Betras said he “appreciates the frustration” of the amendment’s supporters, “but their fight is with the state Legislature.”

A state law gives exclusive control over oil and gas drilling to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources.

The chamber hired the Lavelle firm because it successfully persuaded the Athens County Board of Elections last month to remove an anti-fracking proposal with language similar to the Youngstown initiative from the city of Athens' Nov. 5 ballot.

Mike Chadsey, a spokesman for the pro-fracking Ohio Oil and Gas Association, who was at the board meeting, said, “Let’s not resolve this at a Friday night meeting” of the board of elections. “Let’s resolve this on the ballot. Voters already defeated it” in May.


Comments

1formerdemliberal(181 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

By my very unscientific count, it appears that nine out of 11 attendees appearing in the Vindy photo taken of resolution supporters at the Board of Elections were women.

Although a small sample, people working in the gas/oil industry have consistently told me that many frackpots appearing at local government functions are women with nothing better to do with their time but to frighten uneducated people into believing that the sky is falling with fracking operations with little factual evidence based on local conditions. Earthquakes (not documented for over a year) and contaminated water have not developed into widespread chaos that the frackpots would like people to believe.

Many of these female frackpots are liberally-based, strong Obama supporters, and anti-corporate progress. They are ill-informed and conveniently pick-and-choose any report, no matter how far fetched, ill-conceived or inappropriate to the local area, to support their fear-mongering among the under-information voter, while silently ignoring other research that shows little general health issues with fracking drilling.

Gas and oil developers will never publicly admit this due to political correctness and the fear of being branded bigots for not supporting these frackpots, but I believe that many gas/oil employees secretly regard many of these fracktivists as frustrated housewives with time on their hands to make themselves feel relevant and important. Perhaps it is an ego thing with these frackpots to justify their assumed superiority over the middle class and those legitimately searching for jobs to remain in this area.

And after several months and multiple requests, I'm still waiting for these outspoken activist groups to propose another realistic solution to the long-term economic future of the Mahoning-Shenango Valley area. The silence is deafening. You can hear the crickets (amazingly still living despite oil/gas drilling without federal/state environmental protection laws) .

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2Southside_Res(146 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

It is disgusting to see how politicians bubble to the top when you really start digging into something. I find Bethras' actions and hidden agenda in all of this as revolting as anyone else's actions.

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3questionreality(170 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

In what has become a decayed democracy lead by the misruling class & amid the swamp of political propaganda known as the media, it is refreshing to see a group of people engaged in the civic life of their community.

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4jonnyquest(20 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

What's this??? The War on Women come home to roost? Hey formerdemliberal, you must be drinking too much of that corporate Kool-Aid! I will admit your name calling is creative. "Frackpots," "Fracktivists," I love it! Maybe I'll make up some tee-shirts and wear them to the next "democrat" function. These "frustrated housewives" (one of whom is a geologist) seem to have the opposition running scared! Go Frack Off in the country somewhere! Not in urban areas!

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5msweetwood(160 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Some people's inability to navigate their own logic amuses me, some days. "QUESTIONREALITY" decries "the swamp of political propaganda known as the media" while reading about "a group of people engaged in the civic life of their community" in an article provided by "the swamp of political propaganda known as the media." Of course, if what he says was true, then he would not be able to read this very account or see pictures of the people because, surely, the "the swamp of political propaganda known as the media" would prevent it.

Sheesh.

Mark Sweetwood
Managing Editor

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6James_S(259 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Fracking in the Isramerica and in allied foreign nations is one of many things under the control of the globalists who are building their empire and taking over the entire world.

FOX News and Murdoch-owned news outlets generally support U.S. military action against Syria, but they do not inform their viewers and readers that Mr. Murdoch has a vested interest in war with Syria.
Rupert Murdoch is part-owner of an Israeli-American company that has been granted the rights to explore for oil on the Golan Heights – Israeli-occupied Syrian land.
It is highly unethical for FOX News not to disclose this information to its viewers.
Israel has granted oil exploration rights inside Syria, in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, to Genie Energy. Rupert Murdoch and Lord Jacob Rothschild are major shareholders of Genie Energy – which also has interests in shale gas in the United States and shale oil in Israel.
Dick Cheney is also on the company’s advisory board.
It is illegal under international law for Israel to grant oil exploration rights on occupied territory, as Craig Murray wrote in his February 2013 article “Israel Grants Oil Rights in Syria to Murdoch and Rothschild”:
For Israel to seek to exploit mineral reserves in the occupied Golan Heights is plainly illegal in international law. Japan was successfully sued by Singapore before the International Court of Justice for exploitation of Singapore’s oil resources during the Second World War.
The argument has been made in international law that an occupying power is entitled to operate oil wells which were previously functioning and operated by the sovereign power, in whose position the occupying power now stands. But there is absolutely no disagreement in the authorities and case law that the drilling of new wells – let alone fracking – by an occupying power is illegal.
The fact that Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch are invested in oil exploration efforts in occupied Syria suggests that they support the overthrow of the Assad government in Damascus in order to weaken Syria and divide the nation in much the same way as Yugoslavia was dismembered in the 1990s.

http://gazetawarszawska.com/2013/09/0...

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7southsidedave(4709 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

It seems as though the campaign should be titled"Frack all you want, just not in my backyard"...NIMBY

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8Ytownnative(985 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

I do not support fracking, however, this bill is not the answer. Still a no for me

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9oh13voter(1189 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

The charter amendment will go down to defeat again in November.
The supporters used false information to gain petition signatures and use the same mis- information to promote it.
The voters saw through the lies in May and will vote against the amendment again in November.
Hopefully no will mean no in November.

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10CompManRetired(28 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

Whilst I do not support Salt Water Injection Wells (within a 5 mile radius of private water wells or within a 25 mile radius of fresh water for public usage) harvesting of natural gas has proven vital to this area. The economic enhancement in jobs and wages are transparent. Todays Wall Street Journal editorial of "Fracking and the Poor" points out poor households spend 10.4% of their income vs the non poor at 2.6% on home energy. I agree with the article that Green groups are increasing income inequality with the poor by opposing responsible harvesting. The poor in Youngstown, and surrounding area, certainly have benefitted by lower gas prices and thus keeping more income due to harvesting gas. Youngstown does not have a lock on natural gas like they do with water. Drilling will occur even if outside of the city limits with underground drilling under those same above ground city limits.

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11questionreality(170 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

So, Mr. Sweetwood, are you saying you never, ever ignore any news?

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12arod(258 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

It's disgusting how all the old timers in the picture protesting fracking don't care about the current generation of workers trying to make a living. I am willing to bet that many of the old timers pictured had some ties to the steel making industry that was the lifeblood of the Mahoning Valley. This fracking is no worse on the environment that the steel industry was. Sad that these people can let those that are raising families now "get theirs" as they did through the steel mills.

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13makesyathink(36 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

These activists would better serve the community, if they educated the public on their use of eco-friendly vehicles, smoking laws, and watershed protection - oh, wait, they drive to these meetings in their gas-powered automobiles, with windows rolled down, blowing smoke out the windows, then tossing their butts out by the thousands which end up in the water we drink. Surely they can do something more productive with their time.

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1476Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months, 2 weeks ago

The opposition is not against economic growth. It is about the concern for the health and safety of human and animal life. The people of Youngstown are standing up to what is best for their city and they are not alone. There are hundreds of communities across the nation that have similar amendments as they learn the truth about this industry.

"The citizens of Youngstown can vote YES on the Community Bill of Rights to prohibit toxic trespass in the drinking water protected area of the Meander Reservoir, in residential areas bordering Mill Creek MetroParks and in the populated City of Youngstown." http://www.youngstownrights.org/vote-yes

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15BIGDRILL(36 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

“We the people certainly won.”

Just what have you won? It seem that you want no part of the treasure buried below nor do you want anyone else to have it's rewards.

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16Cmhs74(5 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

You have the right to petition not to have frackig so apparently you don'.t mind relying on countres that despise the US to purchase our oil from. Areas that don't allow fracking should have to pay a penalty tax for their gas to offset cost of fracking in other areas. Wait, your already complaining about high gas prices, due to the cost of importing oil.

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17LtMacGowan(622 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

That "treasure" has too many strings attached. I shall be voting no.

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18stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Truthfully, not many companies would even want to frack anywhere near Youngstown. Its too expensive to deal in highly populated areas with smaller parcels and more land owners. most wells in the county will going around the northjackson/ellsworth/Green, and Springfield areas. so even if there is no Fracking IN youngstown they'll just do it all around the city outside of the city anyway.

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19oh13voter(1189 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

The charter amendment is a lie.
The supporters will tell you it will protect your drinking water, a lie. They say it will protect the air, a lie. Finally they say it protects the democratic process, the biggest lie.
You could drill hundreds of wells in the city and the water would not be affected. City water comes from Meander Reservoir and this amendment has no effect in the townships around the reservoir.
Study after study has shown no effect to air quality from shale development.
The true democratic process is to work through our elected officials. This amendment ignores them and the true democratic process of representative government. The amendment also claims to supercede our federal and state Constitutions. You can't get more un-democratic than that.
Vote against the lies Nov 5th, vote no on the charter amendment.

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20UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

"Citizens of Youngstown!" are you going to stand silent as these Frackpots try to brainwash you? It is only Youngstown the poorest of the poor, whom they try to take away your property rights, while the farms and suburbs enjoy the product of their land. YOU are the one who pay your property taxes while THEY want to make YOUR decission for you. Here are the financial facts they do not want YOU to know:
Mahoning county is the only county that sits entirely on the wet gas zone of the Utica shale and Youngstown is right in the middle of it. Thousands of acres and City lots have been leased already for the highest amount in Ohio, $5K-$6K and acre just for the signing bonus . Based on reported production reports, the minimum royalty per acre in the wet gas zone is $1000 a month per acre. Approximately ten lots equal an acre. The smallest land in the Utica will produce $100 per month not including the signing bonus, enough to pay most property taxes and some.
Truth is most of these FRACKPOTS have no land and recieve no royalties, they do not want the poor of Youngstown to recieve any either,

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2176Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Thank you Uticashale for sharing those numbers. So the poor who may own a city lot, (which by your numbers are 10 to an acre) would receive a signing bonus of about $500 - $600 per homeowner and royalties of $100 per month. I don't see anyone getting rich there. You could easily save more than that by giving up cigarettes. Here's a thought... give up cigarettes = better health. Sign up for fracking = health risk.

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22oh13voter(1189 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Typical liberal nonsense expressed by 76.
No ome has ever said everyone in Youngstown will get rich. But I am sure that those that are struggling could use $500 - $600 dollars. Of course to snobs such as yourself that have plenty of money $500 is just a night out drinking.
But to those in need that five hundred dollars could mean paying the heating bill this winter or food for the kids.
You and your elitist friends would deny this help to those in need.
I for one want those in need to get that help.
Look at this elitist - 76 wants to deny you the benefits of your property and deny you your pleasures.
Defeat the elitist snobs register to vote and vote NO on Nov 5th.
Protect your rights from elitist snobs like 76.

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23UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Oh13, I'm sure -76 doesn't even live in YTown and yet the elitist wants to DECIDE for the poor. The suburbanites didn't let the Frackpots take away their rights. But hey they now PREY on the poor and African Americans of Youngstown, thinking they can't think for themselves.

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2476Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

UticaShale & OH13voter are gas industry trolls so they don't want any resistance.

Those that are concerned about the long term effects of this industry weigh the risks vs the benefits. We are all connected. The water sources from Youngstown not only supply Youngstown's population of 26,839 households and 15,150 families in the city but it also supplies drinking water to over 200,000 people in local communities including Youngstown, Niles, and Austintown.

The Mahoning River watershed drains a total of 1,085 square miles in Ohio and flows through all or part of seven counties. The Mahoning River joins the Shenango River in Pennsylvania to form the Beaver River, which flows into the Ohio River.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/investigativ...

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25ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

The oil and gas industry thinks you're stupid, and now UticaShale and Oh13 are hoping you're stupid as well, simply because they are hoping to get some money out of this.

The fact is....people in Ytown have nothing to gain, they can't put a rig in a residential area. They aren't going to get money...if by chance they get anything out of fracing other than polluted air and water, it would be nothing worth writing home about.

People like Uticashale and Oh13 are scared they will miss their opportunity to cash in because they own land...they want the people in ytown to get in line and be dumb little boys and girls so that they themselves don't miss out. They basically want you to say "ok" to jeopardizing your health for their sake.

November is your chance to let them and the oil and gas industry know that you're not naïve and stupid. Don't be taken advantage of and USED.

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26ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

It's so gross how Utica and Oh13 are pretending they are thinking of people in Youngstown, and even going as far as to mention what color the people are that they are trying to manipulate.

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27ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

I live in the suburbs with country all around me and I'd love to have the opportunity not to be poisoned by fracing.

I envy that the people of Ytown will get to decide they don't want to be poisoned. I wish I and others I know and care about had the same opportunity.

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28ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

By the way, I had the opportunity to hear an actual person who works in the oil and gas industry admit that his parents land is being taken against their will.

Two thoughts came to mind....number one is, how sick that in America, an industry as rich and powerful as the oil and gas industry can literally take your land without your approval.

AND...number two, why is this man who works for the oil and gas industry not able to convince his parents to lease their land? Surely someone who works for the industry and is pretending the things they do are all good, would be able to convince his parents to lease. Why did their land have to be taken forcefully?

Could it be that he warned them against it because he knows the truth about how bad it is?

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2976Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

We heard about the Lupo dumping case in Youngstown but the majority of people don't hear about the other cases of spills and accidents across the country. The noise from the industry is that this is perfectly safe. Our water could never be polluted, we would never be harmed and we would be stupid for not signing away our rights.

In an article by CNBC dated 9/11/13, XTO Energy, which was acquired by Exxon in 2010, is charged for spilling chemical-laced wastewater from a storage tank and into a local waterway, according to a statement from the Attorney General Kathleen Kane on Tuesday.

State environmental inspectors found the water leaking from an open valve on a tank at an XTO water recycling plant in Penn Township, Pa.

Authorities later found pollutants from the chemically treated water, including chlorides, barium, strontium and total dissolved solids, in a tributary of the Susquehanna River basin.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101026374?__so...

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30ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

*****Well....turns out a lot of people were right all along.....

Yesterday the Dept of Energy approved a permit to EXPORT LNG (liquified natural gas) for Dominion Gas from Cove Point Maryland to be burned NOT by American families, but by people in Japan and India.

How's that for the "American energy for Americans and American energy independence" that has been shoved down our throats?


Our resources go overseas while we get to be the toxic frack waste toilet bowl. What a sweet deal. Drill baby drill!


http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/...

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31UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

ABC, you got that one right, now we can be an exporter instead of importing the energy from people who kill us so you can heat and propel your energy sucking life.

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32ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Utica.... maybe you're content with turning our country into a toxic frack waste toilet so other countries can heat their tea while the oil and gas industry laughs all the way to the bank, but i'm not.

I feel that you're making the mistake of thinking you're part of a "team"....the "fracking team" or something. What you don't get is...to the oil and gas industry, you're nothing but a chess piece in a game.

They tell you to jump and you say "how high?"

Weakness and willful ignorance is a dangerous thing as you continually demonstrate.

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33ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Why does the first post under this article talk about women? Who cares what sex someone is?

How asinine and uncalled for. I don't know who the person is, but maybe you should go to the nursery at a hospital and explain to the beautiful little baby girls, in your best baby talk voice " Goochi goo, goochi goo....someday your thoughts won't count simply because of the xx chromosome"

Get a grip buddy. Shame on you.

By the way, you were a girl as a fetus before you started to grow male parts, that's why men have nipples.... "gasp".

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34stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

I'd be curious as to what credentials any of you have when it comes to drilling/ environmental compliance. Seems you just spew things that "he said she said" if you are not educated in the field and understand the actual processes your arguements cannot be taken seriously. simply i'd like to understand how Brine is able to magically float up 1.5 miles through solid rock into your water table?

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3576Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

stateline: Shale is not solid rock and "brine" is extracted from the gas well to be disposed of in injection wells and open pits and that is where the accidents can occur in extracting, transporting and storing.

"Shale is a fine-grained sedimentary rock that forms from the compaction of silt and clay-size mineral particles that we commonly call "mud". This composition places shale in a category of sedimentary rocks known as "mudstones". Shale is distinguished from other mudstones because it is fissile and laminated. "Laminated" means that the rock is made up of many thin layers. "Fissile" means that the rock readily splits into thin pieces along the laminations." http://geology.com/rocks/shale.shtml

Next time you drive through areas where you can see exposed rock, notice how it is not solid. It has fissures and cracks and crevices that water and gas can seep into and up.

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36ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Stateline.....many scientists and well known geologists have made these statements. As well as many doctors, including a world renowned expert on how these chemicals are endocrine disruptors.

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37ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months, 1 week ago

Hey formerdemiliberal....to add on to my above post to you, your mother is a woman. Would you think anything she has to say is silly or invalid or unimportant?

I bet she'd give you much more leverage than you'd give her judging from your comment up top.

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3876Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

The flooding in Colorado has created a natural disaster affecting fracking wells and holding pits.

Important to note that the Colorado River is the water source for 30 million people in seven U.S. states and Mexico, with 70 percent or more of its water siphoned off to irrigate 3.5 million acres of cropland for food that we all eat.

The following website has many informative articles including this one about the media blackout on the fracking flood disaster in Colorado.

http://www.texassharon.com/2013/09/15...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...

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3976Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

4 minutes of your time well spent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxrQUA...

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40BIGDRILL(36 comments)posted 7 months ago

Awesome tune but it didn't take my breath away. Still driving that car,using electric, cooking and heating with gas? Then you are no better than a rapist condemning sex while still in the company of his victim.

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4176Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

bigdrill: your comment is sick. and I don't mean in the slang the kids use the word!

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4276Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

bigdrill: Interesting that you have no comment about the disaster in Colorado.

When we truly cut energy dependence the big oil/gas companies loose money. They would rather we think that we need more not less energy. Is your home insulated? Do you reduce your thermostat in winter and raise it in winter if using air conditioning? Just 3 or 4 degrees. Programmable thermostat? Do you layer your clothes rather than increasing the temp in your home? Down comforter or extra blankets at night? Do you caulk and weatherstrip around your windows and doors or replace with energy efficient windows? Is there a blanket on your water heater? Did you reduce the water heater temperature? Energy efficient shower heads? Do you carpool once a week or even once a month? Close your fireplace damper when not in use. Wash only full loads of closes...heck hang our closes out on the line to save more energy. If you are in the market for a brand new car you might consider a hybrid or electric car. Solar panes? Or a solar charger in your sunny window for your cell phone.

Did you know that If every house in America changed ONE light bulb to an energy saving bulb it would save about 600 million in energy costs, enough to power 3 million homes for a year according the the EPA!

Not everyone can do everything, but everyone can do something. Doing the same thing we've always done is not the answer and fracking our land is not an option.

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43BIGDRILL(36 comments)posted 7 months ago

You are the type who would condemn the smell of a hog farm while gorging on bacon.

The biohazard from flooded sewage systems in Colorado is a far greater health risk that all of the flooded wellsites nationwide.

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44stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months ago

76 Ytown- You are correct about the shale layer being sedimentary rock, but are you implying that the brittle shale runs all the way up to the water table when it is actually a only a formation below the surface. Using the logic that cracks and fissures in the rocks allow fluids to seep UP into the aquifer, would also mean that those same cracks and fissures would let the water run DOWN them hence depleteing the aquifer.

http://nelashale.org/images/cross_sec...

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4576Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Water can travel upwards: Darcy's Law.

Artesian wells, geysers and your plumbing system are proof that it happens.

"Porous stone is sandwiched between a top and bottom layer of an impermeable substance, such as clay soil or shale rock. This keeps the water pressure high, so that at a point below the entryway of the flow, there is enough pressure to bring the water up when the pressure is released. Natural springs form in the same way when a gap in the impermeable rock — perhaps triggered by an earthquake — allows the water to rise to the surface. Sometimes, if the pressure is especially strong in the aquifer, the water might thrust up like a fountain and form a geyser."

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46ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months ago

I hate this bs where frack babies claim that we are being hypocritical by using energy. I for one, along with most people against fracing are not against natural gas....get this through your heads.

We are simply against rushing in and using an unconventional technology that hasn't had all the problems ironed out without first doing so.

Regular fracing is indeed a conventional technology that we've been using for decades...but what we're doing right now..... is not.

THIS is unconventional fracing using technologies which have only been in use within the last few years. We don't even know what the risks are, but have had many upon many previews of what they might be.

Dr. Ingraffea was actually a pioneer of this fracing...and he has been speaking up against it now for a long time. He says it's the well bore that it comes up through.

Here's a good video of him telling you the stuff those who have money to gain from this won't tell you.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkZUD...

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47lacrossemom14(13 comments)posted 7 months ago

I too am happy to see this put on the ballot. There are a lot of good points made in this column and on this discussion wall but the fact is it comes down to the people. They will seek out the truth and do what is best for Ohio.

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48UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months ago

It's funny to read 76YTown attempt to be intelligent, the more he tries the obvious it is that he has no clue.

@ABC,
nice for you to self proclaim that you are smarter than majority of intelligentsia. keep sucking up energy and we will keep fracking for yins.

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49stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months ago

(keep sucking up energy and we will keep fracking for yins.)

yup.

Artesian wells- deepest one in the world is 2800 ft. utica drilling is still a mile below that.

Geysers are formed by heated rock, along faultlines. which are not in eastern ohio.

I can tell you have a strong expertise on the subject since you just copy and paste things you find on YAHOO ANSWERS.

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5076Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

To answer the statement "faultlines are not in eastern Ohio", you may be surprised to know that they do exist and earthquakes have occurred on faultlines throughout Ohio, including 11 recent quakes in Youngstown.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/10...

http://www.ohiodnr.com/geosur
vey/html/geo_f03/tabid/8307/Default.aspx

uticashale and stateline: your (lack of) intelligence is showing when you make statements like: "keep sucking up energy and we will keep fracking for yins."

Copying and pasting supporting documentation is far more credible than merely claiming to be an industry expert as we have seen by other posters such as oh13voter. But then, his main strategy is name calling.. I don't want to be accused of plagiarism, hence the links. The more educated we are on the subject the better we are able to understand the pros and cons of what is being forced upon us.

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51stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months ago

YAHOO ANSWERS is not reliable supporting documentation. Anyone can put whatever they want on there.

DRN website is relaible, and i'm glad you posted that as it shows no faults near youngstown.

Also tell me where the local geysers are around here i would like to see them.

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5276Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

FYI... I've never used YAHOO answers. You can click the link to my sources to find the site. For example: my source for fault lines is Ohio State Department of Natural Resources. You are welcome to your opinion as to whether their information is credible.

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53stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months ago

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/ind... .

Anything you read on the internet must be true!.

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5476Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Don't think there are geysers in the northeast? How about this one in PA?

http://www.lcountyfracking.org/archiv...

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5576Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

stateline: I notice that you used YAHOO answers in your comment #53 . LOL!

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5676Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

No faults in Youngstown says stateline? Even in California quakes happen on unknown faults. Study plate tectonics to see how the earths crust is in motion.

Youngstown quakes:
"These shocks were likely due to the increase in pressure from the deep waste water injection which caused the existing fault to slip."

"Throughout 2011, the earthquakes migrated from east to west down the length of the fault away from the well -- indicative of the earthquakes being caused by expanding pressure front"

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Blog/...

Isn't geology fascinating?

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57ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months ago

Utica....what are you even referring to?

What are your thoughts on Dr. Ingraffea, Utica?

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58ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months ago

76.... as usual, good info.

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5976Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Thanks ABC. Good to see your posts as well.

Here's an article the frackers may want to read before sucking up to the gas companies claims that we so desperately need them.

Google is on the way to quietly becoming an energy company.

http://qz.com/125407/google-is-on-the...

"The nation’s utility executives probably are not feeling lucky these days. They are already fretting about losing revenue as a growing number of homeowners install solar panels to power their abodes with free sunshine."

And: http://www.google.com/green/bigpictur...

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60walter_sobchak(1750 comments)posted 7 months ago

Yep, since solar accounts for 0.19% (1/5 of 1%!) of all electric power generated in the US, it's a wonder that the executives of the electric generating companies can sleep at night! I would think they could find that amount of money in the cushions of the chairs in their offices. As far as Google goes, I would reread the article you posted and figure out what they are really interested in doing with their purchase.

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6176Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Here's what I read:

Google’s main goal is to make itself greener. Google Energy, the company’s power subsidiary, which has a US government license to buy and sell energy like any utility, will sell the electricity from Happy Hereford into the wholesale market in Oklahoma where one of Google’s massive data centers is located. The data center can’t take the power directly from Happy Hereford; it buys electricity from its local utility, which may buy it from the wholesale market. But by selling green power to the grid, Google gets to deduct emissions from its carbon footprint as if it had used the renewable energy itself.

Did I miss something?

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6276Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

In 2012, the United States generated about 4,054 billion kilowatt hours of electricity. About 68% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuel (coal, natural gas, and petroleum), with 37% attributed from coal.

Energy sources and percent share of total electricity generation in 2012 were:

Coal 37%
Natural Gas 30%
Nuclear 19%
Hydropower 7%
Other Renewable 5%
Biomass 1.42%
Geothermal 0.41%
Solar 0.11%
Wind 3.46%
Petroleum 1%
Other Gases < 1%

That is today. Now, if we each do a small part in energy conservation in our homes, vehicles and businesses we can reduce the the kilowat hours needed in the future by more efficiency, energy conservation, and each of us becoming aware of small changes that we can do to make a difference. (did your parents ever say to you "close the door...do you think you live in a barn? or turn off the lights when you leave the room?)

Current thinking is we need to only produce more energy. We need to think in terms of how to reduce energy dependence along with ways to protect the environment. Not saying the we will be able to stop using coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro power. Not everyone uses electric to heat their stove, some use gas. Not everyone uses gasoline to power their cars, some use a hybrid source and public transportation is being converted for energy efficiency. Not everyone can use solar, or wind, but where feasible it is a way to reduce dependence on fossil fuels or nuclear.

Just because the numbers for solar use are low in comparison to fossil fuel does not mean that going forward these are not good alternatives.

In the grand scheme of things, solar and wind is in the infant stages. In the 70's the amount of storage that a computer required was the size of a warehouse. Now, your cell phone has more storage than that. When PCs were first marketed to the public, they cost $5000 or more. Now, you can buy them for just a few hundred. All newer technology comes to the market with a higher price. If you want a the latest tech gadget a rock bottom prices, just wait for Black Friday to get a steal of a deal.

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63cambridge(2918 comments)posted 7 months ago

The electricity in my home comes from a municipal power company owned and run by the city I live in. It comes from a combination of solar, wind, hydro thermal and land fill gas. Every home and business is automatically 80 percent clean green and renewable. For an extra fee of $6.00 per month which I pay, 100 percent of the electricity in my home is clean green and renewable.

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6476Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

The best solutions to solving our energy problems has not been invented....YET. Some parts of the country are more forward-thinking than others as Cambridge points out.

Just think of what we have done to our planet in the last 100 years. We can't continue in this direction. The amount of stuff that we accumulate and throw away is mind-boggling. 100 years ago they probably didn't trash as much in one year as we do in a week. People think that dumping everything in the ground is the solution but even that comes with consequences. Now we've come up with a way to extract gas from the earth but the long term consequences are not being considered. Will we still think it was worth it in 10, 20 or 30 years when we look at what we have done to our country by polluting it to the point of no return in exchange for gas?

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65cambridge(2918 comments)posted 7 months ago

Batteries are the game changer. Collecting clean energy is not a problem. Cheap efficient batteries will change the way the world lives. There will be a day when the energy your home collects from solar and wind will be stored in a battery in your home that will eliminate all need for any outside source of energy including charging your all electric car.

There are numerous companies in the race to produce those batteries. It's only a matter of time. The problem is the race their in with people that are willing to destroy the environment just to make a buck.

The pro fossil fuel folks are the ones invested in that dying industry. Instead of buying up vacant lots in the valley so they could live in the middle of a gas field they could have invested in the future. I bought Tesla Motors when it was trading at $26.16 a share, today it closed at $166.22. How much have you fossil fuel folks made on those lots?

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6676Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

And when Bloom Energy (fuel cells) goes public you might want to buy some of their stock. http://www.bloomenergy.com/fuel-cell/...

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67cambridge(2918 comments)posted 7 months ago

76....Exactly the kind of company I'm talking about. Investing in the right one at the right time would be like winning the lottery and saving the planet all at the same time.

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68ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months ago

This is all about willful ignorance and who's conscience is for sale.

So gross....sooo obvious.

By the way.....when is the big news going to be rolling in about allllllllllllll the jobs everyone's getting!

I mean, my God....this is a "boom" after all....right?

First role of propaganda....attach a word like "boom" to the behavior or practice in which you wish to camouflage as "good".

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69walter_sobchak(1750 comments)posted 7 months ago

Wow, nothing like using a simple fact to rattle the cage filled with environmentalist-wacko's. Let me explain this to you simply: there is insufficient energy coming to the earth daily to provide adequate power for mankind's energy requirements plus growing crops. Once you capture the energy from the sun, plant life will die. Thus, we use stored energy in fossil fuels, or petroleum, which could be abiotic, or geothermal. But, this whole "green" energy sham is only possible on large scales with government tax credits or the threat of additional taxes because of some company's bogus "carbon footprint".

If we want to reduce the amount of fossil fuels used, nuclear is the answer. Fission using breeder reactors is the best current technology. But, large reactors are expensive and dangerous. A simpler solution would be to use small modular reactors (SMR's) that can be fabricated off-site and shipped to a plant. They can be used in series to produce electricity for a reasonably sized area. At some point, not in my lifetime, fusion will be accomplished on a large scale and we will have abundant energy.

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7076Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Walter...I just knew you were a higher thinker! Good input, but you lost me on the "once you capture the energy from the sun, plant life will die".

As the old saying goes "necessity is the mother of invention". I have faith that our ultimate energy solution has yet to be thought of but it will happen.

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71cambridge(2918 comments)posted 7 months ago

walter.....But once we use up all the wind we will never have another tornado or hurricane. I had to read that post a couple times to make sure you really wrote that crap about the sun. Now I'm trying to stop laughing so I can type.

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72walter_sobchak(1750 comments)posted 7 months ago

If I put solar panels on my roof, I can generate electricity. If my neighbor erects panels larger and higher than mine, will I generate electricity in the shade? If my solar panels cast a shadow to the ground, can I then grow plant matter that can be converted to ethanol? We need to use the energy stored in the earth from the millions of years the sun's energy has been striking the earth. How many solar panels or windmills would it take to generate enough energy to create a ton of steel to be used in cars, appliances, structures, etc. We need to use coal or gas, directly or indirectly, to do this. I am not saying that so-called green energy is not good, but it has its limitations and is not all that cost-effective yet.

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73ABC100(707 comments)posted 7 months ago

A quote by the oil and gas industry....."dance puppets dance!"

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74cambridge(2918 comments)posted 7 months ago

walter....if you grow crops and raise livestock in a gas field in contaminated soil irrigated with contaminated water is that something you want to feed your family?

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7576Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

Walter,

Solar panels sit flush with the roof but you do want to put them on a south facing side of the house. Doesn't matter if your neighbor has solar panels. Newer panels are made to replace your roof shingles.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/art...

Just think, if new homes were built with solar shingles instead of asphalt, you could trade the cost of an asphalt roof of say $10,000 toward the cost of a solar roof plus add the rebates to make it really affordable.

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76stateline(69 comments)posted 7 months ago

76- in comment 53 i was simply putting a link to YOUR SOURCE. That YOU QUOTED.

And i believe we're talking about youngstown fracking, not PA? Wind power is the biggest joke, Its take more energy to build a mill and maintain it, than it actually produces. (but wind mills make for a good write off) and what about all those poor birds you're killing! oh my..

This whole subject on fracking should be decided by the landowners. Trust me they are not going to be fracking in the city, that would be ridiculous since there are many better and easier locations to use.

And Walt, Nuclear energy is amazing and a lot cleaner than people think. But i think a lot of people have problems with it when hearing the horror stories about the recent problems they had in Japan.

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77UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months ago

The City of Niles finally realized that it was influenced by Frackpots that really had no substance behind themselves nor their lives, basically outcast. Like the few who suck up energy here selling their shallow interpretation of science, these outcast have resumes of mediocrity and unproductive lives.

Ohio is the next Saudi Arabia and the next generation will jettison this liberal bent into the trashbin of the liberals. Industry is rolling into Ohio like the war effort of WWII, the Frackpots will wither away in defeat once more.

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7876Ytown(1150 comments)posted 7 months ago

stateline: Your wind mill myth - bird killing machines? I suggest that you remove the windows from your house and get rid of cats because they are more a threat to birds than wind turbines. May want to eliminate airplanes and cars since they've been know to kill birds too. And probably even more detrimental is the polluted water that they may drink from a fracking waste water pond.

Another myth is that it takes more energy to build than maintain.than it actually produces. Once built, the wind is free.

One of the problems with wind and solar energy is what to do with the excess produced by wind at night and sun in the daytime. Excess energy has to be stored or used otherwise it's lost. They're developing ways to economically store that energy in batteries but haven't come up with the very best solution for that just yet.

Fracking wells will only produce for a short time leaving behind pollution for eternity. Solar and wind are clean renewable energy sources.

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79UticaShale(847 comments)posted 7 months ago

76er, now tell us why you are the authority on this and please state your credentials?

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80ABC100(707 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

76 could ask the same question of you, Utica.

What makes you the authority on this and what are your credentials? Other than hoping you'll be able to drain some money out of this.

A lot of the stuff we post came straight out of the mouth of world renowned scientists, geologists, professors at universities and even medical doctors who are outraged by this.

I asked you up above and you didn't reply, but what are your thoughts on Dr. Ingraffea? He, as I'd hope you'd know, actually helped pioneer this unconventional form of fracing. (the one they are trying to use now, not the fracing of yester year).

Dr. Ingraffea explains that the well bore is one of the major problems.

And the casing is basically doomed from the get go if you look at statistics.

Hey, I have an idea....why not iron out all of these dangerous problems before we destroy the heck out of ourselves?

The oil and gas industry doesn't care about your health. They actually pay a team of people on how to convince your types and real you in....how about that? Doesn't that make you feel naïve? Wake up and stop day dreaming about getting free money.

Your conscience has been bought and now we have to listen to you lie, lie , lie on here. It nauseates me.

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8176Ytown(1150 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

We never know the worth of water till the well is dry. ~Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732

Human destiny is bound to remain a gamble, because at some unpredictable time and in some unforeseeable manner nature will strike back. ~Rene Dubos, Mirage of Health, 1959

Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him? ~Pierre Troubetzkoy

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82ABC100(707 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

I especially love that last quote, so good, so true.

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83UticaShale(847 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

ABC,

1979 through 1987 , Newport News Shipyard, Engineering Analyst, Submarine Design Office.

Now reveal 76YTown and your resume?

Let me answer this for you, you two are not smart enough to know that you do not know.

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8476Ytown(1150 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

‘One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing.’
— Socrates

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85UticaShale(847 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

That's right 76YTown you know nothing. Really I love to see your resume and I bet you have an insignificant life and just wanna-be somebody here on Vindy. Kind of a fantasy to leave a BS legacy, otherwise you would be proud who you are.

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8676Ytown(1150 comments)posted 6 months, 4 weeks ago

uticashale: That went right over your head didn't it?

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87ABC100(707 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

Utica.... I see what you've written, and my question still remains, again,....what makes you an authority on fracing?

Do you claim to know more than Dr. Ingraffea, someone who literally helped pioneer this type of fracing?

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88stateline(69 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

"Another myth is that it takes more energy to build than maintain.than it actually produces. Once built, the wind is free."

Apparently you didn't get my sarcasm about the birds.....

but i must say, i cannot continue a debate with a person that doesn't understand that mechanical energy turbines require regular maintainence.

Thats the equivilent of saying.

"The hoover dam once built, won't need to be manned or maintained, because water is free"

Your delusions of a life where energy comes mostly from renewable resources are simply that.. delusions. If it were possible to have all this "free energy" as you call it. Don't you think energy companies would be battling and fighting to stick turbines and solar panels everywhere instead of drill pads? Its simple they're not doing it because it is not effiicient and not cost effective.

My credentials

B.E - Civil Engineering P.E.
M.S.- P/NG Engineering
ASCE
Society of Pretroleum Engineers
9 yrs oil/gas industry experience
Born and bred in Youngstown Ohio

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89steelhead(122 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

When this gets crushed by the voters, again, I hope it is the end of this part of the debate. It is good to see that different groups are getting their ideas and agendas out there. Now let's vote.
I'm one of the guys you don't hear about. I saw an opportunity in a growing field and decided to take a chance. I attended ShaleNET training as well as other programs all while working full-time. I went to countless job fairs and applied for hundreds of jobs. I did my homework and presented myself professionally in interviews. I had good references and passed my criminal background check and drug test. And guess what? I got a good job with good pay and good benefits. Better than my union public service job I have been at for fifteen years! The jobs are there with more coming. Not just in the industry itself but in every aspect. Support companies that act responsibly. Support water recycling and reuse. Come down hard on a-holes like Lupo and make an example of them.

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90UticaShale(847 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

Stateline and Steelhead, we need more true professionals to post and be heard on this Vindy site where it looks like society's rejects have had their way spewing nonsense and propaganda.

About time normal people get on this site and provide facts and ultimately we may get the Vindy to evolve and require true identity here to weed out the low information people and the parasites.

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91stateline(69 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

Steelhead, nice you went about it the right way. Seems people want jobs handed to them these days becasue they "deserve it" its the entitlement mindset. I know many companies that can't get workers simply because >50% can't pass an inititial drug test.

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92UticaShale(847 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

Silence.................I guess when we call the Frackpots out to show THEIR credentials, they run to another article. Summation:

ABC = unqualified
Cambridge=unqualified pipefitter but self proclaimed millionaire.
76YTown= unqualified

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9376Ytown(1150 comments)posted 6 months, 3 weeks ago

UticaShale: I am not about knocking your "credentials". I applaud you for the courses you took in your field for certification or accreditation programs but you do realize that you are not an expert by any stretch.

If you were a professor of civil and environmental engineering at a prominent college, an EPA scientist, a doctor, or a geophysicist you may be able to toot your own horn.

We've heard from a number of fracking supporters on this site who have their own opinions. They are fond of name calling and put downs (bullying). The information provided by those concerned by this method of gas extraction is supported by scientific evidence and true industry experts.

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94UticaShale(847 comments)posted 6 months, 2 weeks ago

I agree 76YTown, so you get off this site and let them get on and we can bring in the professionals instead of the unqualified. BTW, what are your qualifications on anything in life, please?

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95stateline(69 comments)posted 6 months, 2 weeks ago

76Ytown- I think you give College professors a bit too much credit. Most professors have spent their lives getting their education and reading books. There are a some that do research but still spend very little time if any anywhere near a drill sight or in the field for that matter. If Someone is an expert in this field, they will most likely not be a professor. They will be working for an energy company because the difference between 80K and 225K salary is too great and their expertise is more valueable to the private sector than in the acadamia community. just my opinion based on the numerous professors and professionals i've worked with.

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96ABC100(707 comments)posted 6 months, 2 weeks ago

What are your thoughts on Dr. Ingraffea, who literally helped pioneer this type of fracing?

Dr. Ingraffea states that the well bore is one of the major problems.

The casing is also pretty much doomed from the get go...as anyone who delves into the documentation will see, as failed casings are numerous.

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