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Last thing needed are gun laws



Published: Tue, January 29, 2013 @ 12:00 a.m.

Last thing needed are gun laws

I watched the president give his speech to fix the gun problem in our country. It was platitudes and grandstanding; he and Joe Biden presented a heart-string-pulling, $500 million solution to our school shootings. Give me a break. Not one word that the NRA gave a worthy, well thought out solution that can be put in place immediately, that will increase the safety of school children and staff immeasurably: security guards in every school that feels threatened. And it will not cost the middle class taxpayer a half a billion dollars. Many schools across the country have already acted on this NRA recommendation.

It is harsh, yes, but remember when we did not have to lock our doors. Things have changed. With the castle doctrine, (you can now defend yourself in your home without being arrested), and concealed carry (all promoted by the NRA), now homicide in the U.S. is at a 20-year low. Did you notice this was never mentioned by the president? What he said was 900 people have died by guns in the 30 days since the Newtown shooting. Not a word about the good guns do.

Citizens are arming themselves. Being armed is a way to try and not become a crime victim. The police are great, but they are really the second responders. You are the first. Guns are not the problem, law breakers are.

The NRA is not a boggy man, it is made up of millions of middle Americans, grandparents, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, aunts, and uncles, from all walks of life. Yes, we have spokespersons, like all other organizations. We are seeing our Second Amendment freedom taken away by an anti-gun government, and we are trying to push back.

People are buying guns at an accelerated rate because they are afraid they will be left defenseless by the action of the president.

All the gun laws, and we have over 22,000 thousand of them, have not stopped the criminal element. Laws did not stop prohibition and haven’t stopped the war on drugs.

This president, either by intent or ignorance, is taking us down a fatal path. He is not ignorant, which leaves intentional. Comparing the USA in anyway, with other countries is an exercise in futility. We are a haven unto ourselves. What we do not need are gun laws, and total gun registration is one of the very worse.

Tom Page, Boardman


Comments

1nipsy(133 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

What are we to do then Mr. Page? And if we do what the NRA mentioned then how much will it cost to put armed guards at every school in America? (something I am not opposed to) You say every school that feels threatened, but you fail to realize that the schools in NewTown, I am sure, did not feel threatened before that horrible day last month.
Personally, I am not opposed to some laws restricting magazine size and banning some assault type weapons. In addition I feel their should be a new tax placed on all weapon and ammuntion sales to be used to help implement the NRA's plan to put security at every school.

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2DwightK(1250 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

It's funny that you hear the NRA proposing new government services but you don't hear them proposing new taxes to cover the cost of all these armed guards.

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3SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

I'm glad that the NRA supports concealed carry. Do they also support the background checks required for concealed carry?

The CCW application and permitting process used in Ohio (and many other states) is far superior to insure that only law-abiding citizens have access to purchase firearms. This process should be used universally for all firearm transactions.

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Oh...

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4HonestAbe(270 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Sorry son, the NRA is owned by weapons and ammunitions manufacturers. Those aunts and uncles you speak of are merely puppets.

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5excel(280 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

On 9/11/2001 men with boxcutters took over planes and killed over a couple of thousand people. With no way to defend against them it was easy.

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6AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Mr Page,

You better go back to math class. $500 million dollars is a lot of money. But you think the NRA plan is cheaper then $500 million dollars.
Simple math for you.

$500 million divided into 50 states equals $1 millioj per state.
$1 million ndivided by 88 counties in Ohio equals $113636.
I am not sure how many schools in mahoning county. But lets use 25. That gives each school $4,545 dollars to have armed security in each school to have armed security at it.

Remember, Columbine had armed security at it. So dod Fort Hood.

I also don't agree with your last statement of "What we do not need are gun laws, and total gun registration is one of the very worse"
Total registration seems to me as one of the better solutions to a problem. The registered owner of weapons need to take better responsibility of their weapons. If weapons owner has loaded weapons that his kids have easy access to, and their kid takes weapon and kills someone, the child and OWNER need to be held responsible.

Once again, I am not against the right to bare arms and I don't wish to take guns from anybody. I just think we all need to take more responsiblity in gun ownership,

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7DwightK(1250 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Gun laws do work. Thanks to successful legislation on the books currently criminals do not have access to automatic weapons, potentially dangerous people are prevented from buying guns by failing the background check and people who use a gun in the commission of a crime receive stiffer penalties.

Improving what works, like universal background checks, seems like common sense.

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8HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

Notice that criminals are not excluded, mentally deranged people are not excluded.

The second amendment does not anything about law abiding citizens, in fact it doesn't even say citizens.

You can't simultanously advocate the Second amendment and prohibit gun sales to any "people".

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9AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Bob,

They only read the 2nd amendment when it is for guns. The same ones that defend the right to bare arms complained when a newspaper used its right to freedom of speech, when it listed CCWers in the northeast.

All criminals have the right to bare arms. All mentally deranged and unstabled have the right to bare arms.

WOW.. how scary is that??

MR page. says ""security guards in every school that feels threatened. And it will not cost the middle class taxpayer a half a billion dollars""

Mr Page, who exactely is going to pay to hire these security guards?

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10SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

@excel:

Whether it was boxcutters, hammers or whatever.... the planes were taken over because the pilots lost control of the cockpit.

Since then cockpit spaces have now been hardened, there have been no other similar incidents. There was a defense - "we" just didn't think it was necessary, until it became necessary.

What is your point?

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1176Ytown(1232 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Article by the US Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center regarding school shootings: http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac_ssi...

* school shootings are rarely impulsive acts. Rather, they are typically thought out and planned out in advance.
* almost every attacker had engaged in behavior before the shooting that seriously concerned at least one adult - and for many had concerned three or more different adults.
* some school attacks may be preventable, and that students can play an important role in prevention efforts.

Anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.

http://www.cato.org/publications/comm...

Laws don't deter people from getting guns. There are laws on the books that make it mandatory to have a drivers license, auto insurance, permission to work in our country, a prescription for certain drugs,and on and on.

Mental health background checks are only as good as past record. Where do we draw the line on what would be considered a mental health issue that would deny a gun purchase? If you went to a doctor 5 years ago for a brief period of depression, would you be denied a gun purchase based on that diagnosis? If, as a child you were diagnosed with ADD or autism should you be denied a gun permit? Would those records be available once you reached adulthood? What if you had no history of any type of illness but after being approved for a gun permit you snapped?

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12papa1(648 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

sorry to tell you but 60% of americans agree with president obama, including a majority of nra members. all they need to do is outlaw the high capacity drums to render these killing machines impotent. lapierre is nothing but a shill for the gunmakers. he doesn't give a damn about you or your rights. regulating ammunition and real background checks are the only answer.

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13excel(280 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

We shipped some real serious firepower to the drug lords in Mexico which was considered no big deal. The ranchers on the border will have to learn to live with new gun laws stripping them of equal arms. Make sense.

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14Rockyroad(149 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

LOL!! Oh, Tom, you did the community a service by sending that letter. Girl Scouts selling cookies, Boardman Baseball players selling raffle tickets, schoolkids selling candy bars, UPS Drivers making deliveries and Jehovah's Witness's trying to convert folks can look up your address and avoid you knowing that you are peeking out your curtains with your gun cocked and ready to blow those threatening criminals away! How many people that are familiar with you, co-workers, relatives and neighbors read your letter and said, "Hey, look at what that nutcase wrote to the editor!" You are so far outside reality...you need to better assess risks to your life. Falling and breaking your neck in the shower is more likely than a criminal harming you or anyone else; so just buy a bathmat if you want to be safer. And as far as what you think about President Obama, if the two of you went before a panel of psychiatrists to determine which one of you had a rational view of the world and which one of you suffered from paranoid delusions, who do you think they'd lock up? There is no saving a guy like you. You are one of life's unfortunates, waiting to pull out your Glock in Applebees, like Dirty Harry, and saving the day. More likely though, is that you blow a part of your body off and shoot innocent bystanders. Keep your guns and buy more of them; they're all you have in life.

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15SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

excel wrote "We shipped some real serious firepower to the drug lords in Mexico ...."

I assume that the "we" refers to the ATF, and not that you were personally involved. Where do you get this information that the ATF actually shipped arms to the drug lords?

Are you are referring to the botched ATF program to monitor straw purchases and lost track of firearms? If so, that doesn't rise to the level of the accusation that you are making.

Do you really know if the AFT ( or someother "we") was involved in actually shipping 'serious firepower'?

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16Rockyroad(149 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

BOARDMAN, OHIO—According to numerous reports, local resident, Tom Page, who owns a shotgun and several boxes of ammunition, is currently the last bastion of defense between the United States of America and the federal government’s full-scale takeover.
Page, a recent retiree and a proud advocate of gun rights, and is, at present, the only person capable of preventing top-secret forces within the government from striking and forcefully coercing hundreds of millions of Americans to submit to a fascist and brutal New World Order.
“It is every American’s right to be good and armed, and that’s a right that should always be protected,” said Page, now the sole American protecting the nation from the government’s hidden plot of disarming all citizens, gradually gaining control of the mass media, and installing martial law throughout the nation’s streets. “Our Founding Fathers intended for each and every one of us to protect ourselves from tyranny. That’s what America is all about.”
“What happens when the feds show up at your front door and start telling you how much meat you can eat or how to raise your kids?”
Page, who keeps his gun on his person at all times has reportedly struck dread into the very highest-ranking members of the U.S. government. According to sources, top government and military officials are fully aware that they remain unable to commence with their oppressive, systematic subjugation of the American populace as long as the 62-year-old owner of a rifle exists.
“The way I see it, the Second Amendment’s been keeping this nation free and secure for well over 200 years,” Page said, valiantly standing in front of his home that is constantly being monitored by CIA agents and elite Special Forces operatives, who are told to maintain a safe distance from the formidable 62-year-old. “First they’ll come for our guns and next…well, shoot, I don’t really plan on ever seeing what the hell happens next.”
While the federal government is more than adequately prepared to begin the first phase of its plan of convoying Second Amendment adherents to newly established FEMA concentration camps, high-level members of the Obama Administration involved in the widespread conspiracy confirmed that they have been forced to resort to alternate methods due solely to Page’s heroics.
“As long as there’s someone like Tom out there with a gun and ammunition, we are unable to carry out our attack on America,” said Maxwell Caufield, a covert military leader in charge of the operation to turn the country into an authoritarian, one-party state wherein the basic rights of citizens are stripped away in order to create total government control. “Try as we did to spread our distorted gun control propaganda—claiming that it would protect innocent people across the country from needless deaths—the man just wouldn’t bite.
“You’ve got to hand it to him, really,” Caufield added. “If it weren’t for Tom, you’d be looking at a totally different country.”

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17SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

@Hman: I'm not sure what excel is referring to, only he can explain. But even in the scenerio that you pose, there is no "we" shipped to the drug lords in Mexico.
My point is this, unless there is some factual basis for excel's remark, then what he is presenting is simply myth that is designed to inflame the discussion.

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18HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Rockyroad. OK, I get it, you are trying out to be a writer for The Onion.

Maybe there are people who are not "in" on your joke.

Otherwise very funny satire at the expense of Tom Page.

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19excel(280 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

SeriouslyNow is now doing damage control. If no one in this discussion seen it then it didn't happen.

ATF’s Fast and Furious scandal

A federal operation dubbed Fast and Furious allowed weapons from the U.S. to pass into the hands of suspected gun smugglers so the arms could be traced to the higher echelons of Mexican drug cartels. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which ran the operation, has lost track of hundreds of firearms, many of which have been linked to crimes, including the fatal shooting of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in December 2010.

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20thediffrence(13 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

Last thing we need are more nut bags like this letter writer. Gun nuts UNITE! Assault weapons ban is not taking away your guns. You have plenty more. No sanity and armed guards didn't stop Columbine. Or Virginia Universtiy or many other shootings from happening. AUSTRAILIA DID THE BAN and they still have guns and guess what? Not a mass murder with a gun in over 15 years with the ban.

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21SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 7 months ago

@excel, Thanks for your explaination., Just challenging your statement that "WE SHIPPED to drug lords in Mexico"

Allowing guns to walk (in an effort to find drug lords) is definately not the same as "we shipped..."

So why the falsehood?

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22SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman: Wait, wait....
I thought it was excel who said "we shipped" serious firepower.
Are you posting under both names?

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23SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman,
I would concede that if "we" (US govt) hired a private contractor to deliver 'serious firepower' to Mexican drug lords that is equal to "we shipped....
"
Is that the contention? Is it accepted fact? I'm not trying to be cute, I'd really like to know. Because I've never heard that about the Fast and Furious program.
Can you refer me to a credible source?

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24SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman, Thanks for the dignified response.
As far as the military weapons (RPGs and like) will you concede that the Mexican government was the intended reciepient. That those weapons made their way to drug lords was not the responsibility of the US govt. Ergo, "we shipped .. to drug lords" is false.

As to the gun-walking fast and furious program, I'd only ask your help as to who can you and I agree is a credible and reliable source.

Obviously neither you nor I are first hand witnesses to the events of F&F, we rely on what we hear reported.

As you suggested, I did google F&F and did find many sources, unfortunately there was a lot of contradictory information.
So, what news sources do you, personally, believe to be reliable and credible?

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25SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Hman, where DO you get your information?
You told me to look up Fast and Furious and what I found was that the gun walking operations began under Geo. W Bush. So why do you say that the operation "was created under this administration", implying the Obama administration.

Among other sources this is what I found;
"The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty of Mad Dawg Global informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[32}

With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[12] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[31] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][32][33][34]." - Wikipedia. Also reported by CBS, NBC, ABC and Fox.

So I ask you again, what news sources do you believe to be reliable and credible?

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26HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman,
Now I think I understand. Your reliable and credible news sources are heavily conservative, leaning into conspiracy theorists. WND recently ran stories that the Sandy Hook massacre was staged.

Aaron Klein is unabashdly anti-Obama, as evidenced by his books.

Media Porn would be a apt description.

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27SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Walter Cronkite and the days of objective journalism.
Today the vast majority of the journalists deliver their opinion of events, their commentary and their theories on events.
They digest the news for us and deliver it with whatever bias they or their employers want to project.
You don't have to read much beyond the title of Klien's books to see his political bias.
Just look at the featured articles at WND (fondly known as Wing Nut Daily) to see what agenda they are promoting.
Yellow journalism at it's best.

The truth is neither liberal or conservative, it is simply the truth. The truth is rooted in evidence, not conjecture, or imagination.

For a list of WND stories that feature the Sandy Hook conspiracy just google WND Sandy Hook. As of this morning there are several.

As to presidents, I adore none of them. I love my wife and adore my God. I respect all these presidents because they are the product of our democracy. I respect and defend our democracy.

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28SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman:
1) Disagree about Cronkite.
2) Aaaron Klein author of "The Manchurian President: Barack Obama's Ties to Communists, Socialists and Anti-American Extremists" and "Fool Me Twice: Obama's Shocking Plans for the Next Four Years Exposed". Sounds somewhat biased.
3) Google the words "wing nut daily", the first hit will be for www.wnd.com. Their agenda is the same as the supermarket tabloids - be as blantly provocative to sell advertising.

4) Back to the original discussion: The commenter named excel claimed that "we shipped serious firepower to the drug lords in Mexico". I dispute that and asked for a serious, reliable, crediable source. I offered you the description from Wiki along with the footnotes the lead to CBS news, House Comm. on Oversight and Gov't Reform, LA Times, Washinton Post, Arizona Daily Star, Business Week.
Can't find any reference that "we shipped firepower to the drug lords in Mexico".

The closest I can come is a blog posted in endoftheamericamdream.com by an author who uses only his first name "Michael".

Conclusion: the statement made by excel and defended by Hman is just a deliberately provocative falsehood intended to redirect the subject away from the original posters letter to the editor about gun laws.

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29HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Hman,
Wikipedia is a useful tool to find the references to a subject. I get that you may not trust LA Times, Washington Post, BusinessWeek, or the Arizona Star but they are better known and generally accepted as reliable journalists.
The same can't be said for WND or No Quarter USA.
The other sources I cited were Darryl Issa's Committee on Gov't oversight that did an exhaustive examination of Fast & Furious. One thing Issa is not, he is not a liberal.

So you and I may disagree all day long about who or what journalist is credible.
I'm going to go with the well known and traditionally accepted, you can choose the Conspiracy theorists.

You will not convince me that the US government knowingly shipped weapons to the Mexican drug lords as you and excel assert.

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30excel(280 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Comrad Bob is very good at providing cover. Next he will convince us that the earth is flat and the moon is but a space panel owned by GE. Optical and verbal illusions have fooled many over the years.

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31HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Actually HappyBob is one who really trys to find actual evidence. excel's retort is innane.

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32HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Can we get back to discussing the original letter and dispense with the personal characterizations?

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33excel(280 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

NO!

I would rather watch a rerun of the Doug Henning show!

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34HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

If you still can't present a logical argument, resort to name calling, the tried and true equalizer.

Hman, I referred you to the references section of the Wikipedia article. There are over 130 citations given there. Among those references are these:
"The Department of Justice's Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents" Joint Staff Report Prepared for Rep. Darrell E. Issa and Senator Charles E. Grassley, 112th Congress, June 14 2011.

Fatally Flawed: Five Years of Gunwalking in Arizona (Report of the Minority Staff, Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, Ranking Member; Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, U.S. House of Representatives, January 2012).

Have you read either of these? Are these what you call mainstream media? Do you have any other contradictory evidence?

Excel's statement that "we shipped to drug lords is plainly untrue". Did the ATF botch an operation in which they were to watch others ship guns? I'd agree with that. But botching a surveillance operation is not the same as performing the actual operation of shipping.

Excel's statement is the distortion of fact.

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35kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"$500 million divided into 50 states equals $1 millioj per state.
$1 million ndivided by 88 counties in Ohio equals $113636.
I am not sure how many schools in mahoning county. But lets use 25. That gives each school $4,545 dollars to have armed security in each school to have armed security at it."
Uh, might wanna redo the calculus there...the correct answer is (no peeking)
$45450.00 . I'd so all school hours and events for $35000.00, that leaves $10450.00 to pay someone to go tear down all the "Criminal Protection Zone" signs that criminals and looney people are attracted to.

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36kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

so=do

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37SeriouslyNow(192 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Check your math again. You were closer the first time. 500 million divided equally by 50 states is 10 million each. Dividing Ohio's "share" by each of the counties would give each county a "share" of 113,363. According to Mahoning County gov website there are more than 49 school buildings. So dividing the 113,363 by 49 results in 2,313 dollars for each school.
$2,300 - just saying

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38HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Hman,
There's no point in trying to discuss this with you. As I can see from your other posts you are not willing to accept anything other than what you have decided is true. You sound like a profoundly unhappy person.

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39kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Actually, when I saw the first mistake I should have looked for the others. To be honest, I didn't do any math other than divide 500 by 50 (and he was guessing on the 25 schools in Mahoning). I would be willing to go tear down all the criminal protection zone signs for $2300.00 which would make all those areas much safer. (Yes, I was going to pay someone $10000.00 but that was for a union guy, we'll just go non-union. Still not bad pay for a days work.)

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