facebooktwitterRSS
- Advertisement -
  • Most Commentedmost commented up
  • Most Emailedmost emailed up
  • Popularmost popular up
- Advertisement -
 

« News Home

Man criticizes lack of gun-policy signs at restaurants



Published: Sun, February 10, 2013 @ 12:05 a.m.
  Firearm Signs

A local gun owner is concerned about proper placement of firearm signs.

A local gun owner is concerned about proper placement of firearm signs.

By John W. Goodwin Jr.

jgoodwin@vindy.com

YOUNGSTOWN

It has been nearly nine years since Ohio adopted a con- cealed-carry law for firearms, but not everyone may understand the rules governing how to keep gun carriers off their property.

Pat McWreath, 59, lives in Youngstown and, along with his wife, obtained concealed-carry permits a year ago. The McWreaths said they feel it is nice to have the added sense of security that comes with the ability to protect themselves against dangerous people.

“When they passed it where a citizen could apply for it, I felt it was my constitutional right, and we just feel better being out and about with concealed carry,” he said. “With all these public shootings in the country, it’s scary.”

McWreath said he wears his firearm often and makes every effort to be a responsible gun owner and permit holder. He said he tries to be cognizant of places that do not permit firearms on their premises so he can either choose not to patronize that business or leave his firearm at home.

“I am the type of person who will not leave a gun inside a vehicle,” he said. “If I am going to a place that does not allow guns, I would rather leave it home in the safe.”

McWreath said his personal gun policy is made more difficult by businesses that do not want guns on their property, yet do not display signs clearly in outside windows to alert permit holders before they enter.

He said the signs became an issue recently when he and his wife dined at area restaurants.

On a visit to Chili’s restaurant in Boardman, McWreath said he checked the door for any signs prohibiting firearms. Seeing none, he went in, wearing his concealed firearm, and was partially through his meal when he noticed a sign inside the restaurant behind a bar that said firearms are prohibited in bold red letters with smaller lettering detailing the policy.

Ed Lamancusa, Chili’s manager, said the firearm prohibition is for the entire restaurant, and the sign is posted alongside other policies and permits for the restaurant, per company policy.

He said if someone does not see the sign and carries a firearm into the business it is easily corrected.

“We just inform them what the policy is and very politely ask them to leave it [firearm] outside,” he said.

McWreath said he was similarly frustrated at the Applebee’s Grill and Bar in Boardman when he did not see a gun-prohibition sign at that establishment. Applebee’s does have a sign in the front of the restaurant telling patrons that firearms are not permitted on the premises. That sign is much different than the one hanging in Chili’s and mentions that the restaurant serves alcohol.

Denny’s, Five Guys, Jimmy John’s, Eat ‘N’ Park or Bob Evans — other restaurants in the Boardman area — did not have any signs at the door or immediately inside the business that addressed carrying a firearm, but a call to the establishments resulted in mixed results.

An employee answering the phone at Denny’s and a manager at Bob Evans said there is no problem with a permitted gun holder eating at the restaurant so long as the person has the permit with him and the gun is concealed and properly secured.

A manager at Jimmy John’s said there are to be no firearms on the property. A manager at Eat ‘N’ Park said she is not sure what the restaurant’s policy is.

No one answered the phone at Five Guys.

Ohio law, as posted on the Ohio Attorney General Office website, says the owner or person in control of private property may post a sign in a conspicuous location that prohibits people from carrying firearms or concealed handguns on the premises.

The law does not spell out what language must appear on signs prohibiting firearms, but it does say the sign must be conspicuous and inform people of the prohibition. There is an example placed on the website.

“Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under his control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly handgun or dangerous ordnance onto these premises,” the example says.

The attorney general website says that the wording is an example, but encourages business owners to consult legal counsel as to specific wording.

Anyone who violates a posted prohibition of firearms sign is liable for a civil cause of action for trespass.

McWreath said he carries a card to leave at restaurants that do display gun-prohibition signs or that tell permit holders not to come in.

“Your policy has made me spend money with your competitor instead of you,” it reads.


Comments

1bmanresident(597 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

These gun nuts are worse than the holy roller bible thumpers. who gives a crap whether you have a gun or not? This guy goes around flonting his piece is as annoying as those people that preach to you all day long about why they believe in god. Just leave all that crap to yourselves and leave us alone!

Suggest removal:

2Archie1(15 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

SINCE THIS GUN PERSON KNOWS WHICH PLACES NOT TO GO, WHY DOES HE CONTINUE TO GO? THERE IS NO ISSUE. KEEP YOUR GUN AT HOME ALONG SIDE YOUR BIBLE OR JUST STAY HOME YOURSELF. WHY DO THESE CONCEALED CARRY PEOPLE ALL HAVE TO BRAG? THEY ARE SO PROUD TO SHOW THERE WEAPON. IT'S DOWN RIGHT SICKENING. NO ONE WANTS TO SEE YOUR GUN!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! GO LIVE IN THE WOODS LIKE DANIEL BOONE IF YOU DON'T LIKE OUR LAWS!!!

Suggest removal:

3DwightK(1236 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

No one cares if you spend your money somewhere else. They throw away your card and then seat the next people in line.

Suggest removal:

4Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

If you are out here in Boardman you need a gun. The law says concealed , that means out of sight . I did not see one thing about God , or showing his gun . TO me he was just trying to follow the law .

Suggest removal:

5RedDevil4Life(5 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Its funny how all of you sit back and cry about this mans rights as an upstanding citizen to go out and get a CCW. He is absolutly right to not patronize those places as he sees fit. But understand this... This man or some other legal gun carrying CITIZEN may be the one to save you or a family members life when the DEPRAIVED criminal comes into that same place with a different agenda. You stand on you box and cry foul about someone legally carrying a gun right up until some crazed guy or gal comes in shooting the place up and that legal carry concealed gun owner saves you!!! It may never happen but wouldn't you be taken back when it happens and you think jeeze if someone else who could have stopped the killing before the Police got here would have saved my wife or husband or childs life. So sit back and cry and see how your views about that legal gun owner with a CCW may have changed the outcome of that day!!!

Suggest removal:

6jimt01(11 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I have my concealeed carry permit. I rarely carry a gun. But I can carry whenever I like. It's nice when businesses and restaurants have a do not carry sign in their front window as I belive they should and not posted in other various locations inside.
By the time that you notice it, your already inside. That's how the law was set up I believe. To be posted at the entrance. By law, I cannot flaunt my gun. It's a concealed carry permit. Flaunting it would put me in trouble with the law. Unlike criminals who flaunt their guns at will at anyone, anytime and take your wallet and or your life. We are law abiding citizens. Your neighbors and your friends. With the hunters and gun owners in this country, we could be considered the largest malitia in the world. But because of a handful of persons, we have all this termoil going on about guns. Ban assault rifles? In 2011 in this country, over 300 persons were killed with rifles. With handguns, over 6000 were killed. I'm not sure, but I would bet my last dollar that law abiding concealled carry permit holders have an excellent record regarding having any incidents while carrying their concealed guns. There are more of us than you think. You walk by us all the time.

Suggest removal:

7Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Just call the place, not to difficult to dial a number.

Suggest removal:

8TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Week said life. How many crimes have been committed at the local restaurants or in their parking lots that would warrant carrying a gun for safety? Anyone have any stats?

Suggest removal:

9jimt01(11 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

In youngstown, especially downtown, there have been people robbed at gunpoint after leaving restaurants at night.

Suggest removal:

10mrblue(969 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I am sure the businesses that don't allow guns on their property are not going to miss the few dollars that you are going to spend.

Suggest removal:

11jimt01(11 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Galaxy seafood on Belmont was robbed at gunpoint with patrons sitting down and eating. A YPD officer shot and killed him. Had the officer not been there, it would have been a much different outcome. Who's to say. It could have been much worse. Crime does happen everywhere.

Suggest removal:

12Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Someone said
How many crimes have been committed at the local restaurants
MORE THEN YOU WILL EVER KNOW
Go armed

Suggest removal:

13big97redtj(16 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

It's amazing that people on here are so quick to criminalize our freedoms.

Suggest removal:

14excel(279 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Gun free zones save lives. A man died at Galaxy Seafood because a man there had a gun.

Suggest removal:

15jimt01(11 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

What planet is excel living on? Or did I miss his point? A law abiding citizen or criminal??? Criminals do not care about you or I or even there closest family members!

Suggest removal:

16HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I can't find anything in the Ohio Revised Code that REQUIRES a private restaurant to post. If someone can find the citation, please post.

Citizens are expected to know the law. CCW holders need to be even more nowledgeable as they have more at stake. So it comes as a shock to me that anyone does not know that, with very few exceptions.."No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued." ORC 2923.121 (A).

John Goodwin's article is slightly misleading with respect to the penalties.
A party who knowlingly violates 2923.121 (a) is guilty CRIMINALLY.

The occasion of a civil tresspass applies to the parking lot of privately owned and posted property, not to prohibited places. Entry into a non-prohibited but posted premises is a 4th degree misdemeanor (criminal tresspass)

Suggest removal:

17kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

lifes2short--so you carry a cop everywhere you go? When seconds count the cops are only minutes away. Cops normally don't stop a crime in progress (unless there just happens to be a cop there). They show up, write reports, gather evidence, question witnesses and call the coroner.

Suggest removal:

18kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Happybob--that law has been changed (last year) and ccw holders MAY enter places where alcohol is served but may not consume. If there is a criminal protection zone sign they still may not enter even with ccw.

Suggest removal:

19kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

lifes2short-oooops, I read that too fast. You said "place", not "police".

Suggest removal:

20doubled(210 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

hey kk - you claim "Cops normally don't stop a crime in progress (unless there just happens to be a cop there)."

Guess what. Neither do CCW holders - even when they are there.

Suggest removal:

21jimt01(11 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Response to doubled.
Guess what?
What a dumb comment!
Was that your brain working on overtime to have come up with that general blanket statement?

Suggest removal:

22kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

doubled--contrare, there have been cases of ccw holders stopping crimes (ever hear of google?)., the most recent being at the Oregon mall. The shooter went in and it would have been a turkey shoot, (Christmas time, mall packed with shoppers), shot 2 people . A ccw holder who did not see the sign had his weapon, pulled it and aimed at the shooter. He did not fire (from what I understand he did not have a clear shot with people running around). The perp went around the corner to a concealed area and popped one in his own head. No one else was killed. You guys like to spout off that ccw holders are not trained enough to handle these situations. The only training needed is to know your limitations and when to NOT shoot. Go educate yourself now so that maybe next time you will have a clue what you are talking about. But thanks for playing and please try again.

Suggest removal:

23kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

correction "there have been MANY cases..."

Suggest removal:

24TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

So one specific case listed thusfar. Thanks Jim. Does anyone else have any other specific examples? Serious question for the greater metro area.

Anybody know how many elementary schools there are in the united states?

Suggest removal:

25RedDevil4Life(5 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Here you go... Read up on shooters stopped by the CCW community. http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/...

Suggest removal:

26L0L(640 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Criminals don't care whether or not there is a no gun sign at the door when they walk in carrying their gun neatly tucked away in their pants so why does everyone have a problem with a guy that went to a class, training and obtained a permit to legally carry a gun?

Suggest removal:

27TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Red, I didn't see any local reports.

I don't think its irrational for someone to hope to take their family out to eat and not want to worry about guns, legal or not, at the next table.

Suggest removal:

28HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

CCW may enter but may not consume.

Restaurants (and for that matter any private party) may prohibit guns, see ORC 2932.126 (C) (3) (a). That law says " may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms".

The video of McWeathy contends that the law requires posting on entry door or entrance. Yes, it maybe splitting hairs, but actually the law only says "conspicuous".

Suggest removal:

29One_Who_Stayed(236 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I find it kind of funny that any Restaurant or Bar can decide for themselves whether or not their clientele can carry a gun onto their premises, but they cant decide for themselves whether or not their patrons can smoke in their establishment. . . gotta love democracy!

Suggest removal:

30doubled(210 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

jimt -- if you were even remotely intelligent enough to comprehend the potential ramifications of allowing weapons in bars and other places where folks can just belly up and have a few, then i would expand my statement - but since you're not, I won't. And kk - if that's the best example you can come up with, then you don't make a very persuasive argument for guns, guns, more guns. Is that when we'll all feel safe? Because the thought of pinning my hopes for public safety on some 60 yr old out of shape tea bagger carrying doesn't really inspire confidence. to you morons it's all tough talk -- until you've squared off against someone that's shooting back - like the cops do - then i'll take my chances on the cops coming through when needed. keep your range heroics to yourself. they mean nothing.

Suggest removal:

31kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

doubled- no problem with guns in bars. Maybe you don't understand how it works so I'll splain it to ya.
To get a concealed carry you go through a gun safety and law class AND spend a bunch of money (gotta pay the instructor and pay the sheriff), go through an extensive background check (not just in OH but nationwide), give them your finger prints, etc. In other words you go through a lot of effort and expense. Now I'm sure there are idiots who go into bars with a gun and drink but I will bet they are not legal concealed carriers. They (ccw holders) are law abiding citizens or they could not get the license. What's the logic in going to the trouble of getting the license and then deciding to break the law?? Why not just break the law without going to that trouble and expense? You call others morons....backatchya. The example I gave was just one of MANY and was a good one (no matter what you say). The perp goes in the mall to commit mass murder and can only get two people before a C.C. pulls his weapon and without having to fire a shot, it's over. There are MANY other examples. Have mommy show you how to use google so you may be educated before you spew again. Wait for the cops to come?...that's what they did at Sandy Hook. How did that work out?? In fact, since the great majority of mass shootings take place in criminal protection zones, they almost always have to wait for the cops to come..How does that always end up (except in the case I cited)? You gotta be a lefty because I see that since you have no valid points to make all you can do is call people names. You may CHOOSE to be a victim if you wish, but as for me, I at least want the opportunity to defend myself and you (thankfully) have NO right to say that I can't.

Suggest removal:

32kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

doubled--BTW, I see I had already told you to educate yourself before spewing at me again (on this very thread!). You obviously have a problem with comprehension. You need to work on that also. But thanks for playing and please try again.

Suggest removal:

33HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@kk80586, Not that you need me to come to your defense (you and I disagree on a lot of other things), but name calling and bashing is just so juvenile!

I also tend to agree with you that CCW holders tend to be the most respectful of the the laws governing firearms. It's my belief that they realize the responsibility that goes along with the permit, and try not to knowingly jeopardize the priviledge that they have earned.

Are there going to be a few jerks, there always are.

As I said elsewhere, I'd personally prefer that all gun owners go through a permitting process like Ohio's CCW.

Suggest removal:

34TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I don't want shell casings in my baby back ribs, even if they have a smoky flavor.

Suggest removal:

35kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

TB, I see above that you have a fear of law abiding people with guns. You may want to stay holed up in your house. Most likely your neighbors carry and if not, their neighbors do. They are in restaurants, grocery stores, hardware stores, gas stations, ...they're everywhere!! they're everywhere!! I don't know what the current number is in the local area, I'm sure you could find out from the M.C. Sheriff. All I know is they have a special window with 2 or 3 deputies and there is always a line. That was back in 07 or 08 and I've heard it has increased. Classes are booked up with waiting lists.
How many murders have you heard of by ccw holders? Or even accidents by ccw holders?
I'm sure it's happened but you don't hear about it all the time like you do with criminals and mass killers and I guarantee you that when it does happen the networks and rest of the media would be plastering it on page 1.
So it would appear that the only thing you need to worry about in a restaurant is the non-law abiding person. Maybe they just stopped in to eat and aren't going to shoot anybody. Maybe they are just there to rob the place and will take your wallet and the register and then flee. Or maybe... well, I'll let her tell her story... go to the popular "tube" site that has videos and search for "Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment". (Can you say youtube here?).

Suggest removal:

36kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

for excell:

Re: "gun free zones save lives.A man died at Galaxy Restaurant because a man had a gun."

Are you serious? Criminals or the mentally disturbed don't normally obey signs which politely ask them to park their guns outside before entering.

The only ones following that kind of message are law-abiding citizens.

The Lunacy of the Left never ceases to amaze me!

Suggest removal:

37kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Restaurants routinely put signs and messages on their front door of interest to their customers as a convenience and courtesy. These include "payment options"- Visa, Master Card and Discover- as a courtesy to customers so that anyone entering without cash (I generally keep only a Visa Debit Card) is not embarrassed or inconvenienced. Many also post menus and prices, again as a courtesy and convenience- so that you don't go in, order a meal, and get sticker shock when you see the bill.

What is wrong with extending the same courtesy to Licensed Carry Holders- LAW ABIDING CITIZENS??? If you don't want them to come in with a weapon- fine- that is your privilege- but as a courtesy and convenience: PUT A SIGN ON THE FRONT DOOR!!!!

All I have to say is: Mr. McWreath- RIGHT ON! I applaud what you are doing, bringing attention to this issue. In your shoes, I would,also, boycott any restaurant that dis-respected my Constitutional Rights.

Suggest removal:

38KSUgrad(144 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

There is many restaurants to choose from, so boycotting might be effective.
What will he do with the hospitals?

Suggest removal:

39doubled(210 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

kk -- you say...."Wait for the cops to come?...that's what they did at Sandy Hook. How did that work out??"

I stopped reading after that. You're a coward and a scumbag. And you forget that the psycho got the guns from his mommy - who from all reports was a responsible gun/permit owner -- just not responsible enough to keep her automatics locked up safe and away from her deranged adult son. I bet she paid A lot of money to get her guns licensed, permitted, or WHATEVER. As if paying money to buy the gun or the permit that goes with it makes you responsible. Yeah -- you gun nuts are all about safety?? And then for you put blame on the Sandy Hook victims and the local police for not being able to save them instead of where it really belongs -- on the psycho who did it and on his "RESPONSIBLE" gun owning mother - who apparently wasn't very responsible at all now, WAS SHE??? You see, when you bring guns into the equation - you open up the door to so many unknowns and variables that no matter what "responsible" plan you think you have to deal with them, you can't control every situation and you can't control the other guy - no matter how many guns your carrying. But of course, your solution, and those like you, is to just let everyone have more guns. What the hell is wrong with you?

Suggest removal:

40HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@doubled
Juvenile
Not worthy of response

Suggest removal:

41kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

You are correct Bob but I can't resist...she is so easy.
doubled-you should change to tripled because your bra is obviously too tight and cutting off oxygen to your brain (if there is one).
Number one- the psycho's mommy did NOT have "automatics". Those are very hard to come by and VERY expensive.
Number two- YOU say I blamed the Sandy Hook victims and/or the police. NOPE...that's your comprehension problem showing through again.
"Comprehension" means retaining and understanding what you hear or read. If you want me to use smaller words, let me know and I'll see if I can rephrase those things you do not understand.
Number three- It would appear that psychos mommy was irresponsible but before I would make a charge like that I would need to know that she did not make every attempt to keep the guns secured. Perhaps she kept the guns locked up and he found the key somehow. We may never know but I did NOT forget that he "got the guns from his mommy".
Number four- "You're a coward and a scumbag." There's that name calling again but I totally understand because I see you had no valid points to make nor a valid argument against any points I made. I am going to bet you consider yourself a "liberal" .
Number five- (that's all the fingers and the thumb on one hand)-I don't have any "plan" other than to NOT be a victim. I want the means to be able to defend myself (or others) if need be. I don't think a gun makes me any "tougher" because I know I'm not all that tough any more. I'm old and have copd. I can't go go diving over the fence anymore and even if I could I should not have to. With all the "psychos" out there nowadays whether they be armed with a gun, knife, hammer or even a fast fist and able to bench-press my weight, I (and others) have a RIGHT to not be molested/maimed/killed. If you don't agree with that, tough. Just be sure to wear a sign around your neck that says "victim" so I will know to leave the perp alone if he is shooting at you or pounding your head into the pavement.
Number six- (that's a tough one, you'll have to go to the other hand now) "What the hell is wrong with you?" Since you were kind enough to ask...Well, I already mentioned the copd but I also have a bad back, I get some arthritis flare ups from time to time, I have a toenail that likes to go ingrown all the time, and right now I have a cold or whatever the crud is that is going around the area right now (sinuses draining and coughing and sneezing...yuck). That's about it but if anything else pops up (and it will at my age) I'll be sure to let you know.
I'd like to chat more with you but I have to work in the morning (work is that thing that about half the people do after they graduate). Work on that comprehension thing and next time read what I say a few times and if you don't understand something, feel free to ask...I'm here to help.
But once again, Thanks for playing and please try again.

Suggest removal:

42kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

"I think what we have here is a failure to communicate."

Remember that famous line from the Paul Newman film- I think it was "Hud"- where he was cornered by the chain-gang warden and his guards? A failure to communicate.

I notice that in this thread- it's not about private gun ownership per se, at all , it's about the policy of restaurants and other public places in properly informing their patrons- of their policy concerning concealed carry.The Bottom Line: If you don't want people coming in with a concealed weapon: POST A SIGN ON YOUR GOD DAMNED DOOR AND LET THEM KNOW YOUR WISHES!!! What's so hard about that?

Putting a sign over the bar- or over the men's room urinal- after someone has already settled in for the evening is ridiculous- and just plain STUPID. (and disrespectful to their customers).

Speaking personally- and I'm not a handgun owner but I do believe in fairness and decency- I'm going to make it my "mission" from now on, in any restaurant or other public place I patronize (where I don't see a prominently posted sign" - to find out what the policy is toward "Concealed Carry". If they say- "We don't want them- I'm going to say: Where's your sign?"

Mr. McWreath is to be commended for drawing attention to this issue. And let's hope that the criminals and the mentally deranged are as observant of the law as he is.

P.S. I think the State Law should be changed: the requirement should be that- if you want to block concealed weapons- you HAVE to put a sign on the front door- otherwise forget it.

Suggest removal:

43kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I mean this whole thread started of in a bizarre way with the post: "These Gun Nuts, etc., etc." Give me a break! Here you have a man bending over backwards to observe the law, and you have the audacity to call HIM a NUT!

Mr McWreath is obviously someone respectful of the law- or there wouldn't be an issue, right? He could just have said: "Well, screw it, I'm just going to keep my gun anyway", but he wanted to do the right thing (as law-abiding citizens tend to do) and what happens- he get's attacked for it: "These Gun Nuts, etc."

I don't have a carry permit so the issue doesn't effect me personally, but from the standpoint of common decency and fairness- it infuriates me.

Suggest removal:

44HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Hey kurtw,
Did you mean to single out CCW? I suppose that an owner could decide to do that but would that allow open carry.
In any case, yes the property should be posted in a conspicious place. The government anti-regulation types may sqwak that demanding "on the door" is too intrusive.

I also suspect that a judge would not consider "above the urinal" sufficient notice, particularly if the patron was a woman!!!.

Suggest removal:

45Voodoosdaddy(12 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I think he is missing the point about "concealed".

Suggest removal:

46dawn421(265 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

kk sounds like my old buddy williamswinger?

Suggest removal:

47fattynskinny(195 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

they don't post the signs in an easy to see place because they don't agree with corporate and/or state policy of not allowing personal weapons on the grounds. if i can't enter your business with my weapon then you ARE responsible for making sure i'm safe!

Suggest removal:

48HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@ fattynskinny:
You may think that the business owner is responsible to make sure you are safe, but you will find thousands of case law decisions that disagree.
Business owners are generally held to a standard of providing reasonable protection protection to their patrons. A judge or jury will decide what is reasonable in light of the circumstances.

Ultimately you are responsible for your own safety. If you are fearful of going to a certain restaurant that does not permit weapons, just don't go there. Should you choose to patronize that place, in spite of your fear, then you are not acting responsibly.

To expect the owner to take responsibility for your personal fear is unreasonable.

Suggest removal:

49HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@Voodoosdaddy:
Who is the "he" you are referring to?

I was referencing kirkw's comment #47 where he says "if you want to block concealed weapons...."

I have no problem with his suggesting that the placement of signage be more specific, I just wonder if he intended to specify only concealed weapons.

Please tell me if I'm wrong, but at the present time I can take an AR-15, shotgun, slung over my shoulder into any supermarket, department store, dining establishment that does not have a sign erected.

I suppose that I can be asked to leave, but I would not be in violation of State law.

That's why I asked if kirkw was targeting CCW.

Suggest removal:

50cambridge(2972 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I've ignored this thread until I just read through it here and there....i think you all should just shoot it out and get it over with.

Suggest removal:

51kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

dawn-is that a good thing or a bad thing :)If you were questioning if I am...no I'm not

Suggest removal:

52TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Good point Cambridge. I've eaten at hundreds of restaurants and never needed a gun. Youngstown, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, new york, dc,etc and never once have I had any incident where law enforcement was needed or ccw was needed.

I don't think its good for businesses to have signs about guns by the entrance. People go to eat to enjoy themselves, and having any sort of gun message, pro or con, is going to have a negative impact.

Maybe you ccw folks should seriously open a chain where its welcome. It sounds like there's q niche in the market big enough to justify one.

Suggest removal:

53KSUgrad(144 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@TB, I've had the same experience, no guns needed. And I agree with your other comment that I too would rather not have shell casings in my entree.

The Ohio law was recently changed so that CCW folks could carry into places that serve alcohol. The person possessing a weapon may not drink. That's a given.

However the business owner or private property owner has the lawful right to prohibit firearms in his establishment. That's a given.

In Ohio a person can walk around the mall, or go to the restaurant of his choice with a shotgun, rifle, handgun (loaded or not) in plain sight. That's a given.

The owner (or agent) may ask a gun bearing person to leave the property, if the bearer refuses, he can be arrested for tresspass. Similarily the owner can post a sign in a "conspicious" place (which has the effect of the verbal assertion) that guns are prohibited.

IMO the gun rights activists are doing is trying to impose sanctions to advance the cause of open carry as well as CCW.

I will be very uncomfortable taking my family to a restaurant or a movie theater where the patron sitting at the next table or row has an AR-15 hanging on the chair. IMO, I think most parents would leave.

Suggest removal:

54WolfAxis(3 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

Suggest removal:

55TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I guess on the same line that carrying one around is a sign of impotency and small genitalia, as well as paranoia and arrested development.

Suggest removal:

56kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I looked at the PDF of the actual law where it addresses "signage" and it clearly states warning signs have to be in a "conspicuous" location to advise those entering the building of the owners intention. If someone goes in anyway- ignoring a door sign- then it becomes a civil criminal trespass matter. Without a conspicuous warning sign- there is no trespass.

Suggest removal:

57kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Correction: in above post it's not a "criminal" trespass matter- strictly civil- if building owner elected to pursue matter.

(I don't know why everyone on this thread is getting so "lathered up" about this matter. It's not about the Pros and Cons of private gun ownership or the Carry Law- that's another matter. It's strictly about the need for "conspicuous" signage in public places and, here, the law is pretty clear: signs have to be in a conspicuous place to advice anyone about to enter a building- suggests a door do me- common sense really.)

Suggest removal:

58TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Is anyone enforcing this law or policy?

Suggest removal:

59Robert_Neville(116 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

TB and KSU I do not agree with you at all. The comment that you made about the law is mot correct. The police in the area are up holding the law. The way I see it is post the sign on all doors. They do it in Texas and in Utah. So why is Youngstown any different.

Do you or would you like the law that is unplaced in China and South Korea. It you have a gun you will be placed in jail and then killed.

I believe in upholding the law and protecting peoples rights. If you take all gun rights way it will not solve anything. I think education a 400hour mandated class with a ten year probation period is in order. To include a 200 hour retrain and mental check up. Now that is a law and this protects all parties.

Suggest removal:

60HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@Robert_Neville.... Who is advocating taking away ALL gun rights?

Youngstown is different because it is in Ohio. They may have different laws in Texas and Utah.

Suggest removal:

612ndamendment(20 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I carry everywhere I go. Also I have my CHL license (concealed handgun license). I do not have a CCW license (carrying a concealed weapon). Criminals carry weapons. I do not carry a weapon. Get all your facts straight people. CCW term means a criminal carrying a weapon not a law abiding citizen. I am an ex police officer and in my opinion everyone should own a gun. Criminals will think twice before messing with anyone because there life is in jeopardy also.

Suggest removal:

622ndamendment(20 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

What I should of said was I carry everywhere I am allowed to lol. Sorry for the mistake.

Suggest removal:

63KSUgrad(144 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Robert, Could you be a little more specific? What is not correct?

The law regarding a property owners right to prohibit guns and particularily concealed weapons is found in Ohio Revised Code 2932.126 (C) (3) (a)...
"The owner or person in control of private land or premises..., may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.”

Prehaps it is more convincing laid out by the Buckeye FireArms Assoc.
attorney of record. His written statement of advice to concealed carry licensees is this:
Effective Friday 9/30/2011, Ohio's liquor permit prohibition, R.C. 2923.121, no longer applies to licensees so long as 1.) they do not consume alcohol in the liquor permit facility, not even a sip, and 2.) they are not already under the influence of drugs or alcohol. The licensee is cautioned, however, that liquor permit facilities are still private property, and private property owners may ban ALL firearms (or all yellow neckties etc) simply by posting a sign to that effect. The important difference is that a liquor permit facility owner posting a sign is only creating a trespass violation ; they are not putting the licensee back under the felony penalties of our liquor permit prohibition.”

To recap: Any person who violates a private property posting that restricts guns is guilty of CRIMINAL tresspass (a misdemeanor). The police can be called and can make an arrest.

If that trespass is in a parking lot, it is a civil trespass.

Suggest removal:

64kk80586(227 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

robert-- WHOA DUDE!!!... a (minimum) 10 week class to satisfy a RIGHT that "shall not be infringed"?? Although I would agree that you can't have TOO much education... gun safety and when to use/not use is a fairly straight-forward thing. I have had no less than 5 gun safety/training courses in my life and all of them added together would not equal even 200 hours. Military and police (excluding range time) do not get that much training. I can tell by the rest of your post that you are trying to do the right thing but please rethink that idea of 400 hours :)

A gun is like a parachute...if you ever need one and don't have one, you will probably never need one again.

Suggest removal:

65HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

@2ndamendment.
Just goes to show that even an ex police man can make a mistake.
You said" CCW term means a criminal carrying a weapon". Perhaps that was the abreviation used in you law enforcement service.

The Ohio Attorney General's website referrs to CCW applicants. Buckeye Firearms helps people find CCW classes, they publish a CCW applicant checklist. OhioCCW.org is definately not an organization of criminals.

So call it CHL or CCW permit or license, we are talking about the same thing.

So right back at you... the term CCW does not mean (to Joe Public) criminals carrying a weapon.

Suggest removal:

66TB(1167 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I don't want to take away any guns. I've found that I'm able to get through ny meals without a glock just fine.

Suggest removal:

67USMC0331(150 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

A comment about eating somewhere and not needing a gun. I live my life by this and with today's world I'd suggest it for everyone.

"I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it."

Suggest removal:

68Robert_Neville(116 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I want to say that I do not want to take guns away but education is needed. This helps all parties involved.

KSU I am glad you can research information. I will have to contact my lawyers about changing this law. To me it is really unfair and needs to be updated.

Ok I have researched fire arms training and you are correct. 200 hours is a long time and it would take up a lot of time. I know that a Soldier gets 100 hours of training in every quarter. Looked it up on a basic training site. That is were. I came up with 400 hours.

Suggest removal:

69fd6636(255 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Sorry out there. The time has come where you gotta have the right to protect yourself, yes, even when your out at dinner. Sad, sad times are upon us. At one time I didnt agree with the gun carrying "nuts" out there. Well, now I see the light. I am one! Sad.

Suggest removal:

70DwightK(1236 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

I'm always confused when gun rights supporters tell me crime rates have gone down and then turn around and tell me that things are getting so bad you have to go around armed.

Which is it?

Suggest removal:

71CCWinstructor(1 comment)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

DwightK,
Crime rates have gone down in areas that have CCW permits and open carry laws as in Ohio. There are areas of the country that crime and murder rates are among the highest, Washington DC for example that has the toughest also has the highest crime rate, Chicago also has one of the highest although they have one of the toughest anti gun laws. Now Kennesaw, Ga. that requires it people have have firearms has the lowest nation wide.
Here are a few web sites to look at. Don't forget to look at Washington DC.
http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm
http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/ra...

Suggest removal:

72HappyBob(285 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

ccwinstructor,
First let me say that I believe that you are doing a good thing by being an instructor. Intrinstically the notion of allowing CCW is not evil, however I have reservations about the sensibility of carrying in a movie theater or churchs.

The simple truth is that you are more likely to be in an auto accident than in a firefight in a theater.

But enough on that, your statistics that crime has gone up in areas that have strict gun laws and crime has gone down where open and concealed carry is permitted may well be accurate. But what you don't, and can't provide is evidence that the increase in crime is related to stricter gun laws. You can't prove that one causes the other. And I would submitt that it is impossible to do so.
I've read John Lott's works and also the criticism of his work. The flaw in his argument is that human and sociatial behavior is fraught with too many variables and inconsistancies to establish a cause and effect.

Before you go off the deep end, consider this. Gun violence statistically dropped when Australia made gun laws more strict. The same overall effect has been seen in other countries. But you would argue that the US is different... and you would be correct!

Don't you believe that the American rural culture is significantly different that the American urban culture. Is it possible that a gun regulation is helpful in a urban environment but not helpful in a rural environment?

Point is that you can't prove your right, and I can't prove your wrong. There has not been a controlled experiment, until the time that's possible the only thing you can suggest is an inference, the POSSIBILITY of a cause and effect.

It is possible that I may die before today is over.

Suggest removal:

73zz3(921 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Difference is between US and Australia we let the thugs rule. And you don't need stats to back that up just read any news.

Suggest removal:

74NixonCarmichael(3 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

The real question is why this psycho feels he needs a gun to go to Denny's? Is he going to shoot the waiter if it takes to long to serve up his scrambled eggs? Jesus, people, get a life.

Suggest removal:

75Sensible(118 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Hey Nixon,
Two things come to mind (why he needs a gun at Denny's)

The first might be because he believes that Denny's is literally an unsafe place to be. (like a dark alley in the worst part of town). So why he would voluntarily go there is a mystery.

The second is that he feels the need to be a vigilante. Out looking for trouble, even when it's not his to deal with. Kind of reminds me of George Zimmerman in Florida, another legal concealed weapons carrier.

Psycho?? - well that might be a tad harsh.

Suggest removal:

76kurtw(846 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Sensible, I know quite a few gun owners and concealed carry permit holders and "psycho" is not the word I would describe any of them.
They're law-abiding citizen's- by definition- because they took training- paid the fee- and obtained their permit legally. There are "psychos" out there and some of them manage to get weapons but they belong in a different category entirely. Categorizing law-abiding citizens with carry-permits- as "psychos" is, well, just plain stupid.

Suggest removal:

77Sensible(118 comments)posted 1 year, 5 months ago

Kirkw, Actually what I said was that “psycho” was a tad harsh.

I also know several concealed handgun license holders and generally they are responsible and reasonable people. The vast majority carry because a specific reason, because of a dangerous neighborhood they have to work in, or because they are known to carry large amounts of cash (like store receipts) on a regular basis, or because they have been threatened by spouses. In other words they have a good reason to carry. They are also not out looking for trouble or out to defend anyone else.

I’ve tried to come up with some sort of rational reason why someone feels they “need” to carry at Denny’s (as an example).

I gave two possible reasons. Both of which seem to suggest irrational thought process. I invite you to suggest additional.

The mantra that the open and concealed carry groups display on the internet is that the more guns the better for society. Consequentially they advocate boycotting businesses that do not welcome guns. As an example, it irrational to change doctors solely based on the office’s gun policy. Recommending others to do the same just compounds the obsession.

Yes, the majority of CHL are responsible and reasonable, but it only requires one of those to unleash lethal carnage.

Unfortunately I do know of a "psycho" CHL holder. He is a family member that is acknowledged as being "out of control". Fortunately for us he lives in Nevada, unfortunately for us he is thrilled that his Nevada permit is valid to carry in Ohio.

Suggest removal:


News
Opinion
Entertainment
Sports
Marketplace
Classifieds
Records
Discussions
Community
Help
Forms
Neighbors

HomeTerms of UsePrivacy StatementAdvertiseStaff DirectoryHelp
© 2014 Vindy.com. All rights reserved. A service of The Vindicator.
107 Vindicator Square. Youngstown, OH 44503

Phone Main: 330.747.1471 • Interactive Advertising: 330.740.2955 • Classified Advertising: 330.746.6565
Sponsored Links: Vindy Wheels | Vindy Jobs | Vindy Homes | Pittsburgh International Airport