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Shale drilling controversies — who's wrong, who's right


Published: Sat, April 6, 2013 @ 12:01 a.m.

RELATED: New perspectives offered at Warren shale forum

By DAVID SKOLNICK

skolnick@vindy.com

YOUNGSTOWN

A coalition of business, labor and political officials not only opposes a citizen-developed charter amendment for an attempt to ban fracking in Youngstown, but says the language is so vague it could prohibit anything from dry cleaning clothes to driving a car.

Also, if approved by voters on the May 7 ballot, the proposal would give authority to any city resident to “enforce this law” in court.

The law could be interpreted to outlaw aerosol deodorants, certain cosmetics, and existing gas and oil wells, said Alan Wenger, an attorney with the Harrington, Hoppe & Mitchell law firm and chairman of its oil and gas practice group that represents hundreds of property owners.

“It’s just crazy,” he said of the proposal. “There’s no sense to it at all.”

Wenger is among members of the Mahoning Valley Coalition for Job Growth and Investment, which announced its formation Friday and its effort to defeat the charter amendment.

But Tom Cvetkovich, a member of Frack Free Youngstown, which obtained the needed signatures to get the proposal on the ballot, said the bill specifically points to fracking, and any claims of it doing more than that aren’t

correct.

“The bill doesn’t go as far as they say,” he said. “We don’t intend to go after other businesses or people.”

The coalition brought together an unlikely duo — Mahoning County Democratic Party Chairman Dave Betras and Tom Humphries, the chamber’s president and chief executive officer.

The two initially clashed during the 2010 gubernatorial election when Humphries backed Republican John Kasich and co-hosted a fundraiser for him over incumbent Democrat Ted Strickland. Among Humphries’ issues with Strickland was his administration’s declining to hire the chamber head’s company in 2007 for a state lottery commission contract.

That led Betras to pull his law firm as a chamber member with Betras saying co-hosting a Kasich event went too far.

Betras also criticized Humphries after the chamber board voted 8-1 with five abstentions and nine members not voting in support of SB5, legislation that restricted collective-bargaining rights for public employees.

“I’m standing with Tom Humphries so you know this is bad legislation,” Betras said. “If we say it’s bad, you know it’s bad.”

Humphries laughed and said he was going to say the same thing.

The chamber taking a stand against the city charter amendment is different from its position on SB5, Betras said.

“I opposed the chamber taking a position on a partisan political issues,” he said. “It was a fight they didn’t need to get into as it pitted Democrats against Republicans. They’re a private entity, and they were involved in a public-sector issue. In this case, it’s a bipartisan issue that directly impacts local businesses.”

While the intention may not be there, Betras said the charter-amendment language has “unintended consequences,” such as “arming private citizens to take the role of government to enforce laws against people who drive cars or dry cleaners or against V&M Star,” a company that’s invested $1.1 billion in a new plant in Youngstown to make steel tubes for the oil and gas industry.

“It’s crazy language,” he said.

The charter amendment calls for a ban on fracking in Youngstown.

The amendment language states the proposal, if approved, would trump state and federal laws on fracking.

City officials say the amendment isn’t enforceable because the state Legislature approved laws nine years ago to take over control of drilling from local governments. An Ohio Department of Natural Resources spokeswoman has said several times that the state has complete oversight when it comes to fracking.

The proposal is called a “community bill of rights.”

Betras said, “Who doesn’t want a bill of rights? Who doesn’t want clean air and clean water? But I’m telling you it’s a bad piece of legislation.”


Comments

1howardinyoungstown(591 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Pittsburgh PA passed a Citizens Rights based ban on Hydraulic Fracturing in 2010 it is still in effect and has not been legally challenged by any company, existing businesses are still expanding and new businesses are still moving to Pittsburgh.

The Youngstown ban is a copy of the ban in Pittsburgh, so this groups claims that "The law... could be interpreted as outlawing aerosol deodorants, certain cosmetics, and existing gas and oil wells" are inaccurate at best and quite possibly bold faced lies.

The citizens of Youngstown should pay attention to the members of this group that are trying to take away
YOUR RIGHTS!

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2Ytownnative(1049 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

If I was insane I would cut off both my thumbs and replace them with my toes and give fracking four thumbs down. This is just bad juju. "And Howard, exactly what rights will the fracking industry take away from you, other than allowing others in the area to the pursuit of happiness that can result from obtaining meaningful employment in a growth industry in the middle of a blighted community like Youngstown" I would take 1000 crack dealers rather then 1 fracking company.

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3UticaShale(854 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Every productive citizen of Youngstown and the Mahoning Valley who own property is leasing their land for mineral harvesting. They are the silent majority and will not allow the "taking" of their minerals by the so called environmentalist.
Youngstown is 75% leased, as long as the fracitivist suck up energy the energy companies will always prevail.

"It is because you suck that we frack!"

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4ytownsteelman(631 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I never thought I would see the day when people would rather continue living in poverty than enjoy prosperity. I once held a much higher opinion of my fellow valley natives than I do now. Many of the people opposed to fracking are reacting to emotions and their inherent mistrust of business and not weighing the pros and cons or even attempting to learn the facts.

One person would rather have 1000 crack dealers than 1 gas exploration company? Really? Do you really know what that says about the person who made that statement? This is scary insane, but I guess to be expected from an area full of liberals. Meanwhile down in Columbiana county where the conservatives live, everyone has new cars, are going on vacations and living large on their new found wealth. Youngstown stands at the threshold of returning to some level of prosperity but the antifrackers would rather have us continue to live like we have for the past three decades. What is their true agenda?

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5UsuallyBlunt(105 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The poor idiots of Youngstown are about to be bypassed! Trumbull County landowners are ready for a big blast of cash! As Youngstowners get passed by, they will whine and cry about being poor and will, once again, need handouts from those around them! We shall only give them bread and water!

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6UticaShale(854 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Steelman, you nailed it, Ytownative is an example of the mental state of the takers of Youngstown, "he admits that he would rather have 1000 crack heads sucking on their crack pipes as he continues to suck energy and denounce it."

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7VINDYAK(1799 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

We must watch what is happening in Trumbull County and keep the heat on the drillers. Absolutely NO spills and NO illegal dumping of fluids.

I am not against domestic energy, but I am against illegal activities that compromise our land, our children and our lives. It is imperative that oil and gas companies train their employees to be responsible workers and quit trying to hide what they have done. Why is it that we property owners have to be the watchdogs over oil and gas workers and report problems and issues to corporate decision makers who depend on Google Earth for their observations? For once, I would like to see these decision makers climb down out of their glass towers and drive out to work sites and observe in real time what is going on.

It is RESPONSIBLE drilling that we demand and we cannot cow to the oil and gas companies' rhetoric or lack of concern for our environment or communities. They do not live here, they are transients and they will be gone when the drilling has been completed. All we want is responsibility and to leave our lands and neighborhoods the way they found them when they arrived.

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8Cubbies(37 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Now we have a new oil spill in the Mahoning River....and you folks want more fracking to damage our soil and water....just sad.

http://www.nrc.uscg.mil/reports/rwser...

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9UsuallyBlunt(105 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Read the report Cubbies...this is from a failure of containment fixtures from an ancient spill...i.e. nothing new at all...

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10RTS1416(117 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I have found from experience the the "fracktivists"
are very good at preforming the oh so complicated copy and paste maneuver without any regard for what information the article actually contains.

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11GeorgeinYoungstown(76 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"The Coalition of the Drilling" hates the idea of the citizens of Youngstown actually having a say in what path their city should take, and the idea that they might actually choose a healthier and more sustainable one is anathema to them.

The hatred for democracy by the ruling class has never been more evident.

But in the end, "We the People" will take our democracy back from the grips of powerful corporations who are only concerned with taking what they need, regardless of the consequences to our health, safety, and long term economic sustainability.

This shale "boom" will only bring us another "Black Monday", (i.e. the steel collapse) and it will come a lot sooner than the first one...

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12cambridge(3033 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The link below will tell you all you need to know about big oil and gas and it will only take a little over six minutes.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/ns...

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13Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

It needs to be banned altogether. Betras and Humphires are for sure getting kickbacks from the industry as is all our local officals. They want the money for their own gains Even if safety is followed and their are strict regulations accidents and spills will happen due to human eroor, greed cutting corners and how complex drilling and fracking a ellis. We do not want this dirty industry here. Some may some don't but we have the right to decide what the citiens want not the stupid corrput goverment Hope all these guys get voting out for pulling this crap.

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14JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@ UsuallyBlunt:

Looks like the "site police" don't care for our comments about her hotness.

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15oh13voter(1205 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Metz,
If we ban anything we should ban gas stations. Last year three tanker trucks turned over and spilled their loads of petroleum products on their way to gas stations in Ytown. That's more spills than shale development in the area.

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16oh13voter(1205 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

olddude,
She is also a fraud. A piece of information she doesn't disclose is that she a founder and director of an anti shale and oil & gas development group in TX.

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17BenitaDrugs(42 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Again, I have to lay this at the feet of Bud Selig

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18Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Becuase JS none has been done. As s=It for Soda and fries bad comparsion since you can choose to eat unhealthy foods and consume large drionks yet the indivdual has no control over where a well is put. As for the studt you dpo know no driliing has ever been down in a populated area like Youngstown right jsut in rural souhteast ohio where few people live and only the enviroment is harm. In al;l honestely your claims are mute since threy don't apply. Nice try though youo pro frac anti enviroment guy.

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19Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Can anyone here admit that this industry no matter how safe will have accident, spiils and blowouts. Can we agree on that much? How much is too much. Fior me if you leave it in rural areas and not in or near a populated area that is fine as the enviroment will be impaceted no matter what. The ODNR does not fine or suspend permits fpor not reporting spills accidents or not and no one has been crimally charged expect for Ben Lupo. Thiose are facts, now the question is what to do ?The best thing is remove the ODNR from the picture and give local communties the power to do what they feel is right.

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20GeorgeinYoungstown(76 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"None have died from fracking..."

The List of the Harmed:

http://pennsylvaniaallianceforcleanwa...

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21JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Living is dangerous to your health!

If you're afraid of industrial development, find a safe harbor and remain isolated from what modern society has to offer.

During the industrial revolution, if this country were populated by the equivalent of today's fracophobics, we would still be riding horses.

Thank goodness my forebearers had the courage to forge ahead.

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22Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I did not say our diet is not harmful you diot. I am saying it it uo to the persons choice. And as for fracking is was and to date has not been done in Youngstown. Show me proof of your claim. Drilling has happened it is called VERTICAl well drilling not HORIZONTAl well drilling. It diod not exsist in our area until 2012 last year and a few year before that in southeast ohio. God you a moron like all pro frackers you spew misinformation claim it is true and the other person is wrong and how we are against the economy which is a flat out lie. wish I could see you person and duke it out hockey fight style! You can keep your posion water and shove it up your DSave Betras loving butt!! Sick of hearing all this pro fracking bs and hype which is all this is and when it is gone praise the lord.

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23Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Did you hear or know that every moth the amount of shale gas under our feet goes down due to new estimates. The newest numbers say we may have 6 years done there,, is that really worth it. I think not.

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24Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Actually if people cared about the enviroment back then and not money we could have ballanced the economy and the enviroment. You can't tell me polluting the Mahoning River so bad it caught on fire was good. We are still leaving with the mess from the stell mills today. Same thing with fracking, well casings fall after 20 30 even 50 years go by. It is due to geography, the fact nothing lasts forever and phyics. We have no control over any of that. By the way I will keep going until you pro frackers admit some of this is true and stop whitewashing and lying about the risks.

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25RTS1416(117 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Even if you had a valid point to make no one could ever decipher it through your crappy spelling and poor grammar.

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26tookie(64 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Per the reference that nothing happened to Pittsburgh after council approved their so-called bill of rights, please note that oil and gas companies decided to locate their regional operations -- not in Pittsburgh, but well south of Pittsburgh and Allegheny County in the Southpointe area of Washington County, a boom development area. Also, the major Marcellus Shale conference in Pennsylvania takes place each year, not in Pittsburgh, but in Philadelphia, which isn't even in the Marcellus Shale area. Bottom line, the shale industry is steering clear of Pittsburgh and spending their dollars elsewhere.

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27Gman(46 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@Metz10987
You said, "...Drilling has happened it is called VERTICAL well drilling not HORIZONTAL well drilling..." . So, for several decades Vertical Fracking has been OK but now YOU declare, without any proof, that Horizontal Fracking needs to be banned all together. Really? There are now, 282 Horizontally Fracked Wells that prove you are WRONG. And now your reason is, "We do not want this dirty industry here". You call this industry "dirty" but you offer no proof. You, and others like you, are in the minority opinion.
.
You are just another ignorant hypocrite.
.
By day you complain about the O&G industry and at night you go home and relax in all of the comfort the O&G industry provides.
.
You, and every like you, want to go back to living in caves and burning wood to cook your meals? Because that is all that you would have without the O&G industry.

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28Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

For the woefully forgetful and the shills we remember the largest earthquake recorded locally a little over a year ago and thousands upon thousands of gallons of fracking waste dumped into the Mahoning which flows into others drinking water.

Add to this the desire to frack Mill Creek park , the Poland woods, Poland cemetery , the city of Youngstown and wait this is the best Meander where we get our drinking water.

The shills are still running their mouths off about jobs and fuel? Same lies and propaganda. As if our cars run on natural gas and as if there were no other way to obtain natural gas except through horizontal fracking. Oh and on the job propaganda everyone in the area is on drugs so that is why the jobs thing never materialized. Ah no.

Lets see oh and the other stale one we already have a history of fracking in the area but the truth is it isn't the horizontal type. So shills( I say shills but we all know there are times when one posts under multiple names) no one with any sense believes you. In my personal opinion I don't even think any folks that might be being paid off believe you. However your father of lies certainly would be proud -a chip off the old block.

Oh I almost forgot the one where the shills tell everyone about the huge fire sale-come and sign folks before its too late to destroy your land and water after all everyone else is doing it . And if you don't then your just a stupid hood rat (What logic). As if people are in the 7th grade and being peer pressured to take their first cigarette.

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29excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Bigben who is a champion of allowing guns in the city to kill many every year but calls fraqcking a threat to our existence has some agenda. I'll take my chances with the wells but the guns need removed from the city to stop the real carnage.

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30Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Like this comment from Gman -A perfect example. He or she says "you offer no proof". Really ? You really think the residents of the area are all that stupid? No proof .I guess the polluting of the Mahoning River isn't proof or the earth quake. It never happened , just click your heels and spin around and it never happened.

Then they will tell you that it is only the disposal that has been a problem . Well where did all the waste come from? Ah the life of a shill paid to blow smoke up peoples rear ends its almost like watching the old WWF .

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31Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Then there is this joker excel who tries to flip the switch by changing the subject and completely takes things out of context. Your not fooling anyone. What does drug dealers shooting each other with stolen guns have to do with dumping waste in the Mahoning? Nothing at all and I wouldn't allow either and neither does the law. How is that shill?

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32excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

You fool no one Bigben as you didn't want the guns confiscated in the city. Unlike your imaginery threat from the wells those guns kill. Even a gun that fires one bullet will kill you.

Your name calling shows your lack of any real thought.

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33Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"You fool no one Bigben as you didn't want the guns confiscated in the city." - - -Unlike you I am not trying to fool anyone. I believe law abiding citizens have a Constitutional right to have firearms. Do you ? You know Hitler, Stalin , and Mao were all in favor of confiscation of firearms from law abiding citizens.They weren't nice people either.

Anyone who tries to change the topic is on the loosing end and you have done this. Aren't you outraged by what was done to the Mahoning Valley's river. Aren't you concerned for all the women and children they may depend on it for a source of drinking water or livestock in other connected water sheds down stream. Money simply isn't worth what can result from something like this.Is it worth it to you ?

My wish is for people to be able to drink clean water without fear of consuming poison. If that makes me wrong in your eyes than that is something I'll just have to live with.

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34excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Anyone who is on the losing end resorts to name calling as you well know. I have a right to life without being gunned down by those who you support to be armed. The families of those who were gunned down in the city also deserve a right to life. Being shot in the city is the greatest threat to life of which threat is real and not imaginary.

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35cambridge(3033 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The fools that claim pollution from fracking is imaginary don't even believe that lie. I can't imagine how anyone that knowingly lies about something over and over again can look themselves in the mirror.

Fossil fuel is the energy of the past. Clean green and renewable is the future. China leads the world into the future while big oil and gas keeps America in the past at the expense of the environment.

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36RTS1416(117 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

China burns 3.8 billion tons of coal year while the entire rest of the world combined only burns 4.3 billion tons. If China is leading the world into the future look out because it's going to get mighty smoggy out there!

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37cambridge(3033 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

China's investments in wind and solar are leaving America in the dust but you keep on shilling rts. Drink any of that harmless frack fluid yet? Didn't think so. Let me and the local media know when you're willing to take that challenge.

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38Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

excel This is the topic of the article- - - Shale drilling controversies — who's wrong, who's right. Not criminals shooting other criminals or innocents which I am opposed too. And I don't want you to be shot either. I am glad the elderly woman who stood her ground recently and held a criminal at gunpoint with her pistol was armed. She became a victor rather than a victim. The police agreed she was well with in her rights. Would you have her disarmed?

Now do you care about what could happen to all those women and children down stream from the Mahoning? All the little kids? Live stock? Their pets ?What about the little babies ? What have you to say about that? Who could do such a thing or agree with such a thing? Where is their conscience? Are they human or some sort of monster?The love of money is the root of all evil.

Now I have answered you even though your comments are off topic. Why won't you answer me on the questions I have posed to you?


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39RTS1416(117 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The U.S. produces 40% of it's electricity from coal while China produces 80% of it's electricity from coal. Bejing's average PM10 is 121. The worst city in the U.S. Bakersfield Ca. average is
38. Your in the bay area right? Were you aware that nearly 1/3 of the soot in the bay area blew over from Aisa, maybe it is all those wind turbines?
Who ever said drilling waste was harmless? If anyone did it wasn't me.

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40cambridge(3033 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

rts....the pollution in China is exactly why they are investing in clean green and renewable. It's the future and people like you want to postpone the inevitable. There is more clean green and renewable energy being used in this country and around the world every day and less fossil fuel. You are on the wrong side of history but you keep on shilling for an industry that you just admitted will harm the environment.

The drilling waste fluid is the same fluid being injected so what's going in is as bad for underground water sources as the waste is for air quality.

So far most of this drilling has been done in rural areas. People aren't going to put up with drilling in urban areas. It's sad that produce and live stock raised in fracked rural ares find their way to our dinner tables but at least those gas companies made theirs.

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41excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Bigben@

You have nothing but hollow words and imaginery concerns. Want to really save lives? Then get real and support the banning of the guns in the city. These guns have killed many while drilling and fracking in the city are yet to kill their first victim. We can save many lives downstream by banning their guns and giving them a chance at life also.

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42Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@excel - -I'm waiting for you to answer the questions. You think what happened was OK? Just business as usual? Wow that is cold. The people know it wasn't imaginary they saw it on their television sets.

And you think the people in this area want that for their park, city and near or under their water source at Meander ? No you have the imagination problem. Imagine it not happening.

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43excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Bigben@

Your lack of concern for gun proliferation and the gunning down of innocent people says it all. Wow you are cold! Guns have killed many in the past and continue to do so today. Can you cite one instance of anyone getting killed by drilling or fracking in the Mahoning Valley? Let's stop the real carnage and get the guns off the streets!

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44Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Obviously we have our answer.

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45Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Horizontal fracking in this area is a relatively new someone else here has posted a list of the harmed from other areas.

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46excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I have my answer for your lack of concern regarding real deaths at the hands of people with guns in the valley. Your degree in scatology is well refined.

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47Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

That is GeorgeinYoungstown has posted a link for The List of the Harmed which can be found at comment number 30 on this page.

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48Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

As for gun deaths in the valley most of them are in Youngstown City . Banning guns from law abiding citizens won't help because the underlying motives at the heart of the issue not guns. A break down in family structure, a sense of hopelessness, poverty ,gangs, a death culture , and drugs are primary causes for the shootings.

If guns were banned altogether the elderly women I mentioned earlier would have been at the mercy of a criminal who broke into her home . This while the criminals would still be armed of that you can be sure. Just ask someone who has worked in a prison they will tell you how resourceful criminals can be.

I have provided sensible answers while you are consistently off topic and posting nonsense. So on that note good day.

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49Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Notice how off topic we have got. That proves those for fracking can not say anything but the same lies we have heard every day and have been shown to be not true or at least not the whole truth. They have to know their are risks nothing is without risks. I am voting yes for this charter aggreeement to stand up to all this nonsense. Enough is enough, Chesseapeke go home!!

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50excel(285 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

You are hoping that if you develop a smoke screen that no one will notice that guns are the big killer in the valley. Let's get real about saving lives and get rid of the guns which are real and can kill with one bullet. Can you name just one person who has died from drilling or fracking in the valley?

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51JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The comments on this story have evolved into some of the best entertainment yet.

Fracophobics, gunaphobics, et al, thank you.

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52Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Metz@ "Enough is enough, Chesseapeke go home!!"- - -Exactly.

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53oh13voter(1205 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

No proof whatsoever that "fracing" has ever polluted anything.
The list of the harmed posted above is not real, there is no proof any of those listed were ever harmed by fracing.

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54Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I call bs on that oh13voter. Prove your cliams or get off. We have provdied you pooff you refute it but have no evidence you or right so again I call bs.

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55RTS1416(117 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"pooff"...your gone. Funny.

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56BIGDRILL(36 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

So Bigben, have you come armed to picket the rigs and oil & gas facilities? At the rigs we don't feel the need to be armed and totally rely on law enforcement to handle the picketers.

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57UsuallyBlunt(105 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@ JoeFromHubbard...My 1st amendment rights may have been violated but...I stand by my original statement...that there is 1 nice looking woman and I can only imagine the doors(?) that were opened by her pleasant personality!

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58JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@ UsuallyBlunt:

Studies have been done indicating that "good looking" or "attractive" people have an unspoken, natural advantage in the business world.

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59walter_sobchak(1927 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Joe and Blunt,
Very good, spot-on analysis about he speaker. After all, as James Brown said, this is a man's world and if I have to watch and listen to a commentator, they may as well be attractive. It is the fox News principle. Would you rather watch Megan Kelly on Fox, with her blonde hair and great figure, Candy Crowley on CNN, with her four large cheeks and multiple chins, or Rachel Maddow, with her Joan Crawford clothes and butch hair. There, I feel good!

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60JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Walter, I've always admired your posts. They are accurate and logical as would be expected from a fellow engineer.

Thank you for the acknowledgement.

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61TERRAPINST(307 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Hey Metz: I can't take it anymore. I have read the majority of posts on this Board (this story that is)-and while I don't claim to be an expert, I recognize that this area is in desperate need of economic growth-that we can agree on right? Further, just because you support drilling doesn't mean you are a hateful, idiot who cares nothing of Mother nature-which is pretty much your stance. We all believe this should be regulated-Right? However, you sound as though there is just no way to accomplish both. You insult those that disagree with you by calling them idiots. We CANNOT allow and do not have the luxury of alienating business due to protest and over-regulation. Also, there are EQUAL amounts of evidence supporting your claim as well as those who say fracking can be done safely. Finally your grammar and spelling are atrocious, really bad man---I think with the way you reverse letters and punctuation you appear dyslexic. Message Board might not be the best avenue of protest from you. REALLY doesn't support a guy who calls OTHER people idiots. Maybe give talk radio a shot-don't have to spell there.

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62walter_sobchak(1927 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

JoeFromHubbard,
You and I both know the country would be in far better shape if more engineers were making the decisions that really matter. Thanks for showing walter_sobchak, a true and good American, some love!

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63usaokay(2 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Drill Baby Drill

And America

Frack ON !!!!!!

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64Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I wish it could be done safety and maybve it can if compmaies where punshied for viloating regulations with is why the ODNR should not be handling the whole shale industry. The next issue is accidents will happen and nothing can prevent them entirely. No well should be near Meander period for that reason. Another issue no one can answer is what chemicals are they using. Right now the laws are in favor of the shale industry and that is just wrong.

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65JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@ Metz:

"Right now the laws are in favor of the shale industry and that is just wrong"

No, that is just right.

It limits a few hysterical people who would ruin the economical development that this industry presents.

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66Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Provide a link then to prove it. Can you tell me why some compmnaies have 100/s of violations yet they keep doing busniess in Ohio and get permits? Or why Ben Lupo and D&L and Hardrock are the only two compnaies ever punished by the state. Can't deny those facts.

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67JoeFromHubbard(1071 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

@ Metz:

"Ben Lupo and D&L and Hardrock are the only two compnaies....."

Lupo, D&L and Hardrock are essentially one and the same "company" except for some legal, technical separations.

Many companies have "infractions" of the law and continue to do business. That is just a fact of life in today's business world and is why they carry liability insurance.

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68Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

True but that does not make it right plus peoples health can be at risk if there drinking water supply is contaminated like Meander. Enviroment law is different then criminal or civil. Also the ODNR is supoosed to issue fines or revoke or permits for delibetre actions of not following regulations or after being told to fix something or cleanup a spill they come back and nothing was done or very little. Prehaps laws should be enforced or stregthed to punish companies with know history of not following the law like what Lupo's companies have done for close to 40 years.

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69Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Anyone who would be in favor of risking their drinking water lacks sense. Anyone know how many gallons were dumped into the Mahoning? What is the latest best guess?

The shills love to try and divert the topic don't they. Ask yourselves why that is the case?Change the topic ,Create goofy scenarios , attack and avoid answering questions.They won't even tell you what is in the fracking fluid, lol -unreal.

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70Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

'So Bigben, have you come armed to picket the rigs and oil & gas facilities? At the rigs we don't feel the need to be armed and totally rely on law enforcement to handle the picketers."

- - -I don't picket the rigs at all and I don't believe anyone who does picket needs to be armed. What I want to see is voting on fracking in sensitive areas such as Mill Creek park, Youngstown City , and Meander.So BIGDRILL are you opposed to the people having a legitimate vote?

Lets let democracy have a voice . Lets make sure we have clean drinking water , a healthy park and protection for the citizens of Youngstown. Imagine going to the faucet and not knowing for certain whether or not there are fracking substances in your water. That is just not right.Think of all the people and little children who trust and depend on clean fresh water daily.Is it worth taking that chance ?

How many gallons of fresh water have been used for fracking in the tri county area or will these just be more unanswered questions followed by more foolish off topic attacks?? Anyone ?

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71Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

"Many companies have "infractions" of the law and continue to do business. That is just a fact of life in today's business world and is why they carry liability insurance." - - -Well Joe, does liability insurance cover all the potential harm to folks and livestock in the area and all the water sheds that connect to the Mahoning and does it cover intentional criminal acts?

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72Metz10987(145 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I doubt it. If that happens even homeonwers insurance may not cover the damge and the companies laywers wqill be sure to claim the company did nothing wrong and without proff get screwed. In the end the only wilnners are the big corporations of shale and oil companies. The private citizens are dirt to them and mean nothing, we have no power and neither does local goverment or communites. The only reguklations come from the stae not form the feferal level.

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73Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

I see. So why would the state go along with these corporations ?

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74TheFarmersWife(7 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

Fracing is just another blight on the already *up face of Youngstown. It is a boon /bust and it will bust long before steel did and the pillagers will be no where around to clean up their mess! What moron permitted this around the Meander anyway? Obviously someone who cares NOT for the drinking water of the communities that Meander serves. This is a fantastic piece of legislation and all you have to do it go to celdf to see what a fine organization participated or talk to the people of Pittsburgh who used something similar to protect themselves against the ravages of the industry! Youngstown has suffered enough already!!!!

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75Bigben(1996 comments)posted 1 year, 6 months ago

The FarmersWife@ "What moron permitted this around the Meander anyway?" - -Has it been permitted around Meander? I thought they were pushing for that. Any info would be appreciated.

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