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Atheists claim Grove City, Pa. school board has dropped prayer

Published: Wed, September 19, 2012 @ 4:00 p.m.

GROVE CITY, Pa. (AP) — An atheists’ group based in Wisconsin says the school board here has decided to replace a pre-meeting spoken prayer with a moment of silence after the group threatened to sue.

Superintendent Richard Mextorf today confirmed that the school board voted 7-2 at a meeting last week to change the policy in the Grove City Area School District.

The school board in June at first refused to change the policy after the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Madison, Wis., threatened to sue.

Mextorf says the school board relented after he and the district’s solicitor researched court opinions that suggested the district would likely lose a lawsuit defended with taxpayers’ money.

The school district is home to Grove City College, a conservative Christian school and several like-minded churches.


1LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Hurray! as a proud member of the F.F.R.F. I say Kudos.

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2LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Yeah.. Keeping religion out of government and schools is making it "Hate speech" right.

officials are elected to serve the people. All of the people. Not just Religious people. Having theist dogma jammed down your throat everywhere you go gets tiresome.

the FFRF sued to make them stop actively promoting their religion ONLY when acting in an official manner. They can put giant 30ft crucifixes up in their yards and scream I love jesus all they want as private citizens.

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3excel(1251 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Yeah.. Keep right on doing what you like to do with no rules. Most of the people should put up with the feel goods who want to do their thing.

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4James_S(268 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

The progeny of the original antichrists are behind the attack on Christianity.

A Rabbi Schmuley Boteach is quoted as saying "Jesus and Christianity have been the main sources of antisemitism in the world..."

So, what Schmuley is saying is that Jesus was the first antisemite and therefore Jesus was the first Nazi...

"Israel owns our Congress"- Jim Traficant

The antichrists now own the kingdoms of this world.

Jesus said His Kingdom, New Jerusalem, is not of this world.

God's Kingdom, New Jerusalem, has been established.

Those who overcome this world (by believing and having faith in Jesus) will inherit God's Kingdom:

Revelation 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Those who do not overcome this world (by not believing and not having faith in Jesus) will not inherit God's Kingdom:

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those who are the leaders of the ongoing attack on Christianity in this country (and the rest of the world) and their followers may have gained the whole world during their lifetime on this planet.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

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5LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

and here come the nuts..

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6ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

next thing you know the atheist nut jobs will sue the government for having "In God We Trust" on the currency.

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7Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

The FFRF are nothing but a bunch of fools, with the sheep's following them. Why does it bother these cockroaches so much about saying a prayer in school or anywhere for that matter. Who is "forcing" them to say a prayer? They can sit down, be quiet, leave the room, if there so hellbent on not saying a prayer. I can guarantee when in time, for a loved one, friend, family who is suffering, and they need a prayer(s), they will prayer to no end. And I can guarantee at one time in there life, they said a little prayer for whatever reason.

Oh, to get back the good old days without all this garbage!


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8LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

They are actively promoting religion while acting in an official function. I care as does the F.F.R.F and A.C.L.U. No one is trying to censor your views and opinions or say you can't be a christian or believe in god. The whole point is that when you are in an official position. You should leave religion at the door and act as if you represent everyone, not just the people who believe as you do.

and yes I would love to see god removed from our coins. Its basically a big F.U. to everyone that believes in other gods or don't believe at all.

I'd especially like to see "under god" removed from the Pledge. It wasn't even part of the original pledge it was added in the 50's at the height of McCarthy's Red Scare.

The government shouldn't be a platform for one segment of the population advertise their views. Its supposed to represent all of us and to protect the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Let me get this straight the whole reason for prayer is to thank god right? If you believe in God then he hears your prayers whether you say them out loud or not. So whats the point of mandating prayer time then? So you can show off how godly you are and what a great christian you are?

To Atheists,Agnostics, Native Americans, Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc its like the people who are supposed to be representing everyone are ignoring everyone that doesn't share their beliefs. There is no room in government for religion.

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it” - John Adams

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9Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago


"and yes I would love to see god removed from our coins. Its basically a big F.U. to everyone that believes in other gods or don't believe at all."

Why does it bother you and the atheists so much? It's only words on a coin. Because it includes the word "GOD" you want it removed. Couldn't GOD be different in your eyes then someone else's eyes? Why is GOD such a hate word in society today? Or a school having prayer time? Are you in that school? Are you children? Why do you care so much? Or the nativity scene in front of a church? Why does that bother you so much? Do you attend that church (of course you don't) so what is the difference if it's there or not?? People have a choice in society today, if they don't believe in GOD then move on , why do you people have to fight because of GOD. What exactly are you trying to accomplish or prove? What makes you's think your right?

Oh to bring back the simplier times when Life didn't have so much "hate" over the word GOD.


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10ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Life, don`t waste your time arguing your point with Ltm. His little quote by John Adams, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”, isn`t even a good argument for his point. He took it out of context to make himself sound intelligent and support his cause.

The complete quote, which was taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson actually says this,

"Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it"!!! But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly [Adams' boyhood parish priest and Latin school master]. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

Meaning, he did not want to live in a world without religon.

People who are against religon love to throw that quote out there.

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11LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Its offensive because the Government is supposed to represent all Americans. I see our coins and I feel excluded. Its more than that its not just exclusion but the promotion of one religion over others by the government. It goes on again and again like when I put on the Uniform of the United States Army to defend this country and I experience difficulties for being Atheist. I was even called in and told to "put a lid on it" that by continuing to just state my beliefs I was jeopardizing my chances for promotion because "It would negatively impact unit cohesiveness and under mind my authority"

Over and Over again I hear that Atheists are evil, and you can only be moral if you believe in a 2,000 year old fiction. Poll after Poll shows that Evangelical Americans believe that Atheists are more evil than islamic jihadists. Seriously?

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12Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

I know when I joined the United States Navy, I had to take the enlistment oath. Did you? In case you don't remember here is the link:


(so you had a choice to just not say "SO HELP ME GOD" - No one forced you, did they????

Guide Note: There has been some controversy about whether the phrase "So help me God" is mandatory. I have seen officers allow enlistees to omit these words, if they choose, according to their religious preference and beliefs. While federal law does not appear to make any part of the oath optional (see Title 10, Section 502 of the United States Code), military regulations often do. For example, the Army enlistment regulation (see Army Regulation 601-210, paragraph 6-18) makes the portion "So help me God" optional.

And this is fair?



I know! Losing battle, which I respect others views, just feel bad come Judgement day for them. There so lost.

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13ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Life, don`t you like how he blew past the fact that he got caught making an idiot of himself.

Like my post was never there.

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14LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Anyways the F.F.R.F won here. Membership money well spent.

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15LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Madalyn Murray said this at the opening of the famous Abington School District v. Schempp Supreme Court case. I thought it was rather eloquent.

"Your petitioners are atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.

An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god.

An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter. He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now."

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16Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

""An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.""

You could replace (atheist) with (Christian) and delete (no), and what would be the difference?
You guys attack GOD and PRAYER and think you won some stupid lawsuits (which by the way is a waste of money, spend it on yourself or family, friends, charities, etc. not no useless club) but who says that you are right? Do the Christians chase away the atheists? Not quite, your choice. So why can't the atheists leave GOD and PRAYER alone? Not hurting you if you don't believe in it? Right? Why does it bother you so much??

"He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter."

Then leave Christians alone and enjoy your GOD free world. Quit hating GOD and PRAYER and people who believe in him. There not hurting you in any way, shape or form. And if you think so, How are they hurting you?

GOD is everywhere


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17ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Hey Ltm you gonna tell us why you took that quote out of context?

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18LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Because I was looking for Adam's quote where he says the US is not a christian nation when he was addressing the Barbary Pirates in 1802? I believe I could be wrong, but I came across that quote and I liked it. I made the fundamental error of not researching its context and you nailed me for it. Congratulations.

I can admit when I've made an error.

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19ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Liking a quote because it sounds good without knowing its context is foolish, irresponsible, and misleading. Not to mention it now nullifies your whole argument.

Perhaps you also don`t know all the facts of what you believe in.

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20LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

I don't see how one misplaced quote nullifies my entire argument, but believe what you will.

Kudos Vinytalk. The FFRF only brought the suit. The court is who ruled on it.

Please Hulkster elaborate on how we Atheists break many laws? I'm curious to see what laws it is we are breaking.

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21LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Btw Courts have ruled in favor of FFRF suits many times. Such as

FFRF v. Thompson - In February 1996, a federal district court ruled that Wisconsin's Good Friday holiday was a First Amendment violation because it's sole purpose "was the promotion of religion.

FFRF v. Indiana Family & Social Services - May 2, 2007 challenge of the creation of a chaplaincy for the Indiana Family and Social Services Administration (FSSA). The FSSA hired Pastor Michael L. Latham, a Baptist minister, in 2006, at a salary of $60,000 a year. In September 2007, in response to FFRF's suit, Indiana ended the program.

Also they were part of the suit where Federal judge Barbara Brandriff Crabb ruled that the statute establishing the National Day of Prayer was unconstitutional, as it is "an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function,"

The ACLU has a long history of court victories as well like Everson v. Board of Education case, in which Justice Hugo Black wrote “the First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state…. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.”

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22Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago


Yep, they won suits, but seriously, does that really do anything for you? Does that improve your life in any way? Do you really think people are going to stop Good Friday as a holiday in Wisconsin? Does it please you that families or children can't see the manager the FFRF took away from that church. Is it really that bad that you fight not to have GOD and PRAYER anywhere? Does it enhance your life in anyway? That poor child with cancer, who needs all the prayers from his classmates and teachers, can't say a prayer from him in school because you fools have to fight it. Do you people even have a conscience? Just asking....


Breaking the law? Does it make you really that happy that GOD and PRAYER is against the law? No wonder the youth of America is the way it is today, nothing to believe in, but hate and a GOD-less existence. That's pretty sad when you celebrate children not being able to pray in school or say the pledge of allegiance. I really feel bad for you's.

P.S. A.C.L.U is nothing but a useless idiotic group. Fight for the "Important" issues, not the stupid ones.

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23LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Lets review the rights the ACLU has participated in helping to win us

Brown v. Board of Education resulted in a ban on racial segregation of schools (some what important i'd say)

Powell v. Alabama resulted in the right to have an attorney when questioned by the police

Rochin v. California results that the state can't forcibly pump your stomach on the suspicion you may have used drugs. (The right not to have invasive medical procedures is a big one I'd think)

Mapp v. Ohio results Police must obtain warrant before searching your home

Miranda v. Arizona created your Miranda rights

Whitus v. Georgia ended segregated juries

Griswold v. Connecticut the right to get birth control if you are not married.

As I said these are just some of the landmark cases the ACLU has participated in to win us the rights we enjoy and take for granted today.

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24ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

LTM- "I don't see how one misplaced quote nullifies my entire argument"

If you can`t quote someone correctly, how am I to believe you know what the heck you`re talking about to begin with? What other incorrect information are you spewing?

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25Ret(39 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

"Anyways the F.F.R.F won here. Membership money well spent."

Lt, you mean you have to pay dues to believe in nothing. That's a great racket.

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26Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago


"Till that time they where breaking the LAW ."

And that is a shame, just for saying GOD and PRAYING, and people can live with that and feel they accomplished something. What a senseless world we live in.

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27LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Nothing fails like prayer.

And No you pay money to receive their newsletter and to add money to their coffers to help stop religious encroachment upon government.

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28LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

That and they used some of that to erect a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes". The Monument reads

"Atheists in foxholes, some say they are myths,
Creations of the mind who just don’t exist.

Yet, they answered the call to defend, with great pride.
With reason their watchword, they bled and they died.

They took Saratoga from the British crown,
Secured America’s freedom at the Battle of Yorktown.

From Sumter to Appomattox, fields flowed with their blood.
When the cannons grew silent, the flag proudly stood.

From the Marne to the Argonne, in trenches and tanks,
They defeated the Germans -- the whole world gave thanks.

They were bombed at Pearl Harbor, fought on to Berlin.
Many freethinking women served along with the men.

Still war keeps erupting -- Iraq, Bosnia, and Kosovo.
Where is the peace that eludes people so?

It is broken by tyrants who bear crosses and creeds,
That overshadow reason with hate and cruel deeds.

So atheists prevail until your work is complete.
Mothers mourn, children cry, and bigots plan your defeat.

By air, land, and sea, you answer freedom’s call.
Without god or faith, you seek liberty for all."

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29Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago


"Change the law
Everything else the just talk!!!!"

Don't have the time or money to change the law. And besides, I'm sure they still still prayer (if to themselves) and praise GOD if to themselves. So you see, they didn't really win, because GOD will always be everywhere if you like or not. Just a fact. Must be bad to live in a God free world with nothing to believe in. Pitiful.


Really?? That has to the stupidest thing I've seen in a very long time. And you gave them money for that? smh

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30ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Spending money to build a monument to support the belief about nothing... sounds like a Seinfield episode.

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31Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago


" Plus I do not think you are stupid for your ideas and would not stoop so low as to call you that or any other name."

That comment wasn't for you, it was for LT. And yes I do believe that giving money to erect a monument to "Atheists in Foxholes" is stupid. Like anti said, how can you build a monument if you have a belief in nothing. Don't make sense.

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32LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

I believe in the Atheists Soldiers who died to protect this country and its about time they got a monument to their sacrifice.

Time and time again religious figures in the military try to play the myth that there are "no atheists in foxholes" which is bunk. Its about time that Atheist's service was acknowledged.

Also just because we don't believe in god doesn't mean we believe in Nothing. I for one believe in my fellow man, and I believe in the Law, and I believe in being a good man and a good citizen.

One can be a good man who takes his civic and ethical responsibilities seriously with out believing in some fairy tale.

If my meager contributions helps to create a monument to a worthy cause, or helps pay the legal costs of protecting separation of church and state, anywhere and every time it is threatened then I consider it money well spent. You don't agree then don't donate.

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33LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

I forgot to add that if the lawsuits filed by the F.F.R.F. and A.C.L.U. are so frivolous and ridiculous. Why does the Judiciary side with them so many times?

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34ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

It is nice to know that you support our great nation.

A nation that was born from the desire to be able to worship religious beliefs. (not atheists beliefs).
A country that was founded by religious men of conviction and fortitude.
A country who`s pledge since the 1950`s states, “one nation under God…”.
A country who`s official motto states, “In God We Trust.”
“In God We Trust”, a phrase in the fourth stanza of the complete Star Spangled Banner. Our nations official national anthem.

Lt, you go ahead and believe what you believe. It`s your right. That`s what our religious founding fathers wanted.

But the fact is atheists are the minority here in the US.

Remember, when there is a crisis, when there is a need for hope, when a little child is missing or when tragedy strikes, people ask for prayers. Not, "is there an atheist around to say a few words?"

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35Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Since they don't believe in the spiritual I propose that we sculpt a bucket of soil as a memorial
Looks like Mom did not get your mac & cheese to you in time

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36ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

September 20, 2001

After a joint session congress, showing solidarity after our great nations tragedy, breaks out in song.

That song....

"God Bless America"

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37LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Some one needs to learn about Judicial Precedents and Jury Nullification.

Sorry its "A nation that was born from the desire to be able to worship religious beliefs, including lack of religious beliefs"

You should read the Establishment Clause and the legal precedents set by it. Including this opinion writen by Justice Hugo Black in Everson v. Board of Education

"The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

As for Police matters. I would hold the police just as accountable as any soldier. If i witnessed one beating an EPW I'd immediately start to bring about an Article 32 hearing.

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38Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

The face of prayer has changed. The need for prayer has not.


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39LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

Nothing fails like prayer.

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40ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 9 months ago

God Bless America

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41LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

Don't forget Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Ganesh, Thor, Freyer, oh and the Flying Spaghetti monster.

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42LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

FYI the phrase "under god" was not part of the original pledge of allegiance it was added during the Red hysteria of the 1950's as a measure to stop communism. Because we all know that like Vampires with crosses, the word God makes communist burst into flames.

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43Lifes2Short(3882 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

“The value of consistent prayer is not that He will hear us, but that we will hear Him.”

William McGill


How an Atheist Found God

"To me, it's like the foundation of a building. The facts/reasons support my faith. It's like someone driving across the Golden Gate Bridge. They can feel whatever they'd like about the bridge. But it's the construction/design/materials of the bridge itself that allows them to safely get from one end to the other. In the same way, the objective reality of God--the logical, historical, scientific reasons to believe in his existence, are important to me. There are people who don't seem to need that. But I hate being fooled, and I have little regard for wishful thinking. The reasons for God's existence mattered to me."""


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44ANTIYOUNGSTOWN(253 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

Lt since you do not believe in what this country`s motto clearly states, feel free to leave.

Life, good points.

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45Bigben(1996 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

LtMac Gowan - -I was an atheist too in college. I argued against the existence of God in Grad school over pizzas once a week in those days after class. I put my faith in human potential. That still left me feeling pretty empty and did nothing for the reality that I was going to die and it could happen at any moment. Then was all of this for nothing? It made no sense. I started thinking how can evolution be true if monkeys aren't driving around in cars? Do bees teach their offspring to communicate through all these little different dances at great distances from the hive and get fellow bees there successfully? Are birds taught when and how to fly south when they were only born in the spring? No they were programmed and designed to do what they do. Chaos does not run this universe. There are systems of laws and laws are not established from nothing. Something can not come from nothing. There is indeed a source and that source is God. Just the human eye and its complexities do not occur by accident or trial and error.

As far as prayer. I learned in a psychology class that Christians on a whole tend to live longer and it was postulated because their faith helped them to deal positively with life's stresses. It was also noted that they tended to heal faster due to it was said a more positive attitude. Well the sources weren't Christian but they were able to admit that there was something to it.

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46WilliamSwinger(341 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago


My congratulations on Atheism's marvelous successes: Counting Pot, Mao, Stalin and Hitler among the greatest hits of fifty-something declared Atheist regimes the world; a body count from these regimes almost two hundred thousand times that of the remaining wars, Crusades and other documented human conflicts combined; Good times! I can see why you want to align yourself with this belief system. Atheism is awesome, dude!

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47LtMacGowan(713 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

FYI Hitler wasn't atheist he was even a choir boy at his local church in Austria. Stalin was in the seminary for awhile before they kicked him out.

Yeegads maybe its Christianity that turned them into mass murderers. Maybe the priests were playing hide the sausage again?

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48southsidedave(5189 comments)posted 3 years, 8 months ago

The U.S. is so afraid to offend anyone these days...the Government needs to get a backbone and stand up to these radical groups

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