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Senate Bill 5/Issue 2: How did we get here?



Published: Sun, October 23, 2011 @ 12:01 a.m.

RELATED: If Issue 2 is voted down

By MARC KOVAC

news@vindy.com

1st of five-part series

COLUMBUS

Joe Rugola stood before an audience of hundreds of union members, holding up an article about then-candidate John Kasich.

  A Firefighter Speaks Out On Issue 2

A Firefighter Speaks Out On Issue 2.

A Firefighter Speaks Out On Issue 2.

The headline, as read by Rugola, president of the Ohio AFL-CIO at the time: “Kasich to Public Employees: We Don’t Want You.”

That was in mid-September 2010, a month and a half before Kasich and his fellow Republicans swept Ohio’s statewide offices and the state Legislature.

A heated campaign preceded those results. Many Democratic-leaning union voters weren’t enthusiastic about their choices in Ohio, following months of economic doldrums and what then-Gov. Ted Strickland frequently called the worst economic conditions since the days of the Great Depression.

Unemployment rates, though on the decline, remained in or near double digits. Republicans hammered on the 400,000 Ohio jobs that were lost under the Democratic administration.

“The electorate was angry,” said Tim Burga, current Ohio AFL-CIO president. “We were just trying to get them focused on who to be angry at.”

During the September rally in Columbus, Rugola and Strickland — and later the same day, former President Bill Clinton — tried to stir the Democratic masses into action, warning of the consequences of allowing Kasich and the GOP to take control of state government.

There was ample talk about greed, Lehman Bros. and “country club cronies.”

And union busting.

“Sisters and brothers,” Rugola said at the time, “the forces that are arrayed against us today, their voices of intolerance that we hear on the airwaves and their moneyed allies on Wall Street, have one motivation and one plan in mind only. And that is to destroy and wreck the American middle class.

“Let’s don’t make any mistake about it. But there is one movement that they’ve got to get out of the way before they can do that, [and] that is the great American trade union movement.”

Kasich wasn’t completely silent on the issue. “We need to break the back of organized labor in the schools,” he reportedly told a Republican audience in early 2009, in a widely circulated account of an Ashtabula GOP meeting by The Star Beacon.

But the warnings of the Democrats and sound bites of Kasich and Republicans weren’t enough to sway disgruntled union voters.

Burga said his members still voted 2-1 for union-endorsed candidates, including Strickland.

But some stayed away from the ballot box altogether.

And some sided with Republicans.

“I’ve heard a number of people who were in police and fire unions voted for Kasich,” said Paul Beck, a political science professor at Ohio State University who has written extensively on political parties and elections.

Nancy VanDyne has taught high school chemistry in Cambridge for more than 20 years, including six stints as president of the local teachers union.

She and her husband, also a union member, and two sons are Republicans. Three of them voted for Kasich — the youngest son probably would have, too, if he had been old enough at the time.

“I truly believed that maybe Kasich would ... try to find a constitutional and equitable funding method [for Ohio’s public schools] because of his background in business and his ideas with respect to money,” VanDyne said.

And now?

“I’d never vote for Kasich again,” she said.

November 2010

Beck said the election results were similar to what happened in 2008, when an electorate tired of economic turmoil blamed George W. Bush and Republicans and elected Barack Obama as president. Democrats nationwide enjoyed comparable success that year, even taking control of the Ohio House.

Two years later, with the economy still in the dumps, voters shifted their blame to Democrats.

“You have this 2010 outcome that put Republicans into state Legislatures in numbers that we hadn’t seen since 1928,” Beck said.

In Ohio, that led to a GOP sweep of the governor’s office, the four other statewide offices and both chambers of the state legislature.

“Ohio voters were saying, ‘We’re not really happy with the way things are going right now, we are going to blame the Democrats more than we blamed the Republicans this year,” Beck said.

In 2006, Democrats nearly swept statewide offices, with Strickland receiving more than 60 percent of the votes cast in the governor’s race. About 2.4 million Ohioans were in his camp that year.

By 2010, a year when voter turnout was several percentage points below the previous gubernatorial election, Strickland managed only 47 percent of the votes cast, about 1.8 million.

Kasich received 49 percent, about 1.9 million.

“This wasn’t a mandate for [Kasich],” Beck said. “Nor do I think it was a mandate for the Republicans.”

That’s not to say that the GOP took control of Ohio government solely because of disgruntled Democratic voters.

The 2010 campaign included much focus of an $8 billion budget deficit, a growing national sentiment that government borrows and spends too much money and a belief by a majority of voters that Kasich and Republicans were their best bets business growth and job creation.

In polls of registered voters from both parties, respondents said they thought Kasich would do a better job of handling the state budget and rebuilding the state’s economy.

On the campaign trail, Sen. Shannon Jones, a Republican from the Cincinnati area, heard a clear and repeated message from voters: live within your means and don’t raise our taxes.

“Taxpayers don’t want to provide government with more resources,” said Jones, the lone sponsor of Senate Bill 5. “... These communities, these political subdivisions, are just out of money. So the question before us is, if we have no more money, how can we continue to provide the quality services that taxpayers [expect]?”

Broadsided?

Kasich and other Republicans campaigned on economic development, unveiling a plan to privatize the job-creating programs of the Ohio Department of Development.

They pledged to reduce business regulations through something they called the Common Sense Initiative.

And they said they would retain planned income tax cuts and push for others, including the elimination of Ohio’s estate tax.

Within months of taking office, Kasich and the Republican-controlled Legislature had accomplished all of those goals, along with prison sentencing changes and the passage of a $56 billion two-year state budget that they said filled a multi-billion-dollar budget gap and contained more reforms than any piece of legislation in recent history.

Following a contentious debate, thousands of angry protesters and national news coverage, Republicans also pushed through Senate Bill 5, changing the way some 350,000 public employees in the state have negotiated labor contracts for nearly three decades.

Kasich and other proponents said the legislation was needed to help state and local government offices better control their costs and bring more parity between the wages and benefits of public and private sector workers.

But Democrats and other opponents said Senate Bill 5 went too far and amounted to an attack on organized labor — a fulfillment of the governor’s earlier comments on breaking the backs of teachers unions.

They also said sweeping change to the state collective bargaining law wasn’t among the issues emphasized by Kasich and other Republicans during the 2010 campaign. If it had been, more union voters may have sided with Democrats.

“Did you ever hear [candidate] Kasich say that he would support a repeal of collective bargaining rights for Ohio’s public firefighters and police officers?” asked Chris Redfern, chairman of the Ohio Democratic Party. “Did you ever hear him mention that once? Ever?”

But Jones and Jason Mauk, spokesman for Building a Better Ohio, dispute that notion.

They said collective bargaining reform was among the topics covered by a budget commission, whose task was to pinpoint ways to reduce the state’s budget shortfall.

“Anyone who makes that suggestion clearly wasn’t paying attention to the debate,” Mauk said. “... No one can say that this issue is somehow new in the public discourse. Just because it might not have been a central tenet of the gubernatorial debate doesn’t mean that this hasn’t been in the works.”

He added, “If the union leaders did not see this coming, then they weren’t doing their jobs because this is not something exclusive to Ohio. This is a debate that has been unfolding [nationally].”


Comments

1NachoCheese(161 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes on Issue 2! The beast must be slayed. Ohio can no longer afford the interference of the unions in the providing of our public services. It is astounding how many of these otherwise good people in the ranks of teachers, firefighters, etc. just don't get it when it comes to employer employee relationship. Some have been seriously brainwashed by their union bosses, but this can no longer be tolerated. Yes on Issue 2 for the good of Ohio - we move forward from there.

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2Just_me(18 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Mauk is exactly right....this is a national tone, a national agenda. This is what the Republicans now stand for because they don't have the vision or fortitude to work on the real problems of generational poverty, a weak economy, and the lack of real jobs. They would rather privatize public ed and help the for-profit moguls line their pockets with taxpayers' dollars, forcing local districts to raise taxes to replace the revenue they siphoned off of school budgets. They are destroying public education and targetting the public employees and their services which we do not mind paying for.

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3timOthy(802 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

The Koch Brothers got us their and other Special Interest Right Wing Groups or Cults ! That's how we got here. Then there's the Turnpike .and the Million dollar study ! With (NO) open bidding and using Stimulus money to do the Study ! When you can drive to Indiana to see there's ! Thanks Tim Ryan for pointing it out what our LOSER Governor is doing. Now he has to pay back the Stimulus Money to the Federal Government. Just love Right Wingers !!!

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4Stan(9923 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

The problem isn't complex ! With more being unemployed less taxes are collected . To keep the status quo those paying taxes need to be taxed at a higher rate .

AUSTERITY IS ONLY FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE AND NOT THE SPECIAL ONES !

Support government workers unions and you are supporting higher taxation . Their goal is to take more of your money . So your wages have been cut ? It is you who must make do on less .

http://www.thoughtsfromaconservativem...

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5theotherside(329 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

“Anyone who makes that suggestion clearly wasn’t paying attention to the debate,” Mauk said. “... No one can say that this issue is somehow new in the public discourse. Just because it might not have been a central tenet of the gubernatorial debate doesn’t mean that this hasn’t been in the works.”

He added, “If the union leaders did not see this coming, then they weren’t doing their jobs because this is not something exclusive to Ohio. This is a debate that has been unfolding [nationally].”

There you have folks. So not only did John Kasich lie to voters in the campaign, but the republicans finally are admitting what their SB 5/Issue 2 agenda is really all about. It never was about pensions, health care, or even saving money (Shannon Jones admitted that herself). It was always about union busting to defund the democrats and take permanent control of government by stripping away democratic party monetary support from the unions. Because that is what the republicans have always wanted to do ever since the unions organized. We can now all stop talking about Issue 2 isn't about and throw it in the grave where it belongs. Stop union busting in Ohio and send the message to Kasich, Batchelder, and Niehaus and the rest of the country that union busting is unacceptable.

Vote No on Issue 2.

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6Philo(99 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

I see absolutely no problem with the idea of busting up the public sector unions. The governor was clear from the beginning. Public sector unions benefit only a few to the detriment of many. There are now laws in place to protect police, firemen, and teachers as well as the other public sector union members. If the end of public sector unions results in a workplace that is intolerable for some then let them quit and go to work in the private sector; but we know they won't do that, will they? We're not in the Gulag. No one is holding a gun to their head. They've got it way too good at the expense of the taxpayers. Vote yes on 2.

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7Ypboy(50 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Look what the unions have done to Youngstown. So sad. Vote yes and get rid of unions so all can prosper.

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8atownreader(34 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

If you think abolishing unions will help the state
prosper, think again......Look at states in the South. I lived in Texas for 13 years. No unions there.Many problems. Other southern states the same. No unions. Who is prospering? This SB5 is BS. Vote NOOOOOO! Kasich's own words say it all. He wants to break our backs.

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9theotherside(329 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Don't be fooled. What philo, ypboy, and their pro SB 5 friends don't want you to know is that if SB5 is upheld and becomes law, private sector unions will be next. And why wouldn't they. A win for SB 5 supporters will embolden Kasich and the rest of the Columbus republicans to let the other show drop. And that will be right to work in Ohio. And that is bad for all Ohio workers, union and non-union. You think John Kasich is an extremist lunatic now? Let SB 5 become law and find out how much damage he really can do to the State of Ohio.

Stop union busting in Ohio.

Stop Kasich, Jones, Batchelder, and Niehaus and their bulling tactics.

Vote No on Issue 2.

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10drrabbit(6 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Federal employees have never been allowed collective bargining/striking rights. For some reason, everyone still wants those goverment jobs. They still have the best hours and benefits in the country.

At the state/local level this bill will mean that our elected officials will be able to make some different spending decisions than what they do now. If we don't like what they do with the public employees then we have to elected new ones. Public employees can still belong to unions and there will still be some benefits to doing so. Historically unions were needed for safety and living wage issues but hopefully we as general public already have a reasonable checks and balances for that.

I don't feel the need to vote to make unions more powerful in the public arena. Today, they don't seem to be interested in anything but promoting themselves--far from the common good.

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11theotherside(329 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

SB 5 will enable cronyism, favoritism, and nepotism in the public work place. Public employee collective bargaining, and when necessary, binding arbitration are the checks and balances that protect taxpayers from these "isms". Without the ability of workers to have real negotiating rights at the bargaining table (not faux rights like under SB 5), those checks and balances that drrabit wants will disappear and be replaced with the "isms".

Don't take that chance.

Vote No on Isue 2.

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12blutarsky(25 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

I THINK TEACHERS DESERVE EVERY PENNY THEY MAKE! WITH WEEKENDS, HOLIDAYS, SPRING BREAK, SUMMERS, AND SNOW DAYS THEY ARE WORKING THEIR BUTTS OFF! IF YOU HAVE TO GET RID OF YOUR CELL PHONE OR CABLE, DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PAY THEM WHAT THEY DESERVE!

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13UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

YES on Issue 2 - why should 350,000 pubic union employees dictate what we pay in taxes to taxpayers? We need a seat at the negotiation table and SB5 gives us that seat if taxes have to be increased to pay for their contracts. That's why the unions are fighting it so hard.

I don't want to continue to be left out or pay higher taxes, so I am voting YES on Issue 2!

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14paulparks(235 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

blutarsky,

Are you for real? You've just listed many of the reasons teachers are the most coddled, overpaid bunch of cry-babies on the planet.

Shouting will not help you make your points. I for one think it's time - not for the private sector to sacrifice more - but the public sector.

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15Iwannamove(61 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

God don't tell me that so many idiots are actually falling for the republicans crap. God I feel sorry we have so many mindless people in Ohio. I guess you certain people that vote yes on sb5 are going to be the same fools who vote on a republican for president. You guys much be filthy rich or very slow. I got news for you I am not sharing my alcohol nor my fire when the crap hits the fan in January and we are all homeless or living in slave camps.

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16candystriper(575 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

...470,000 high school students from around the world took the math placement test and the United States ranked 25th...even Finland beat us.

Yes on Issue 2

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17newsmaker1(127 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

The question should be. Why did the Public Unions spend 35 million dollars against the Wisconsin reform?

Message to:Citizens and Taxpayers: These Unions lied thru their teeth about all the bad things that would happen in Wisconsin.

In Wisconsin, they are now back hiring Safety Forces and Teachers.

The sun still comes up in Wisconsin.
Children still go to school.

No Fireman, Policeman,School have lost their jobs.

Keep Ohio moving forward- Taxpayers need a Yes vote on Issue 2

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18Education_Voter(838 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

blutarsky and PaulParks:
I'll remember that I am a "coddled cry-baby" on Monday in Youngstown City Schools when I throw myself into separating two baggy-reared combatants, whom I am assigned to inculcate with the values of Western Civilization.
The paramedics with the area fire departments will remember that as they race to revive a victim in the middle of the night.

The police officer that gets called to the house where the former baggy-reared student has broken down the door will remember that as they face the attacker on behalf of the resident.

The nurse on Code Blue trying to bring back respiration to someone's father will remember that we are, of course,
"coddled cry-babies."

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19SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

IF YOU LOVE AMERICAN AND OHIO

VOTE NO ON SB5!!!!!!!!!

Stop KASICK's lies!!!!!!!!!!

VOTE NO ON SB5

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20Constructor(105 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

It's a shame that most of the money being used to defeat Issue 2 is donated from unions other than the teachers, cops and firefighters. These public workers are the very same idiots who voted for Kasich and his minions to begin with. It's amazing how the people who have the biggest egos and who think they are better or smarter than most others are the same ones who voted for the governor who is breaking their unions and lowering their standard of living.

To all the teachers, cops, firefighters, etc... out there, just remember it is the trade and manufacturing unions (who you never patronize or respect) and others like us who have spent countless millions to bail your stupid asses out.

Vote NO on Issue 2!

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21theotherside(329 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Constructor, you are absolutely right. And that mistake won't be made again. John Kasich and his puppets in the statehouse will go down in history as the best thing to happen to organized labor in the last 50 years because people see what this is really all about and are finally awake and moving to stop these tea party controlled extremists. Union busting and enslaving working America with substandard wages all to enrich the likes of the Koch Bros and the politicians who do their bidding is unacceptable. And thanks you for your help!

Vote NO on Issue 2

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22card64inmyrtle(26 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

GO TO HELL KASICK

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23honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

to all the pro sb5/issue 2 people on here, please tell me how unions are raising taxes. we are supposed to take paycuts and work in more dangerous conditions, while pencil pushers in congress give their buddies raises. why are congressmen and all politicians not taking pay cuts, who gets the tax breaks middle class, or rich. i think the real problem is you dont respect the work we do, fire, police, ems, teachers but guess what, someone has got to do it, and i know you want to pay us all min. wage, cuase we dont all have big fancy degrees, so when you wreck your car, or have a heartattack, do you want the guy making 8 bucks an hour saving your life, cuase how much is he gonna care, he's tired from working two other jobs, or the guy who makes a decent living, not rich, i know this rebublicans paint a picture of all the police and fire robbing the cauffers of local govt, but thats just not the case, the avg ff (full time) makes about 40 a year. some more some less, my God what thieves, how dare they be able to afford a nice chevy truck, damn crooks

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24Education_Voter(838 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Constructor,
Thanks for the help from private unions. I always drive a GM product -- granted, I can only afford used.

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25JohnB2(6 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Schools and local government are hurting for money thanks to the political agenda of which political party? Ya know, the one that gave tax cuts to the rich and tanked the economy with deregulation that permitted gambling on derivatives. The gamblers lost and the middle class pays. To meet the challenge, Kasich cuts money to schools and local governments while giving a $140K job to his BFF from Lehman, ending the estate tax, and bringing in carpetbagger Kvamme. NO to Kasich, Corporatism and Issue 2!

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26rjwhit63(10 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

What the pro issue2 people don't understand is that a yes vote will severely diminish the ranks of Ohio's police, firemen and teachers. If this issue passes why would anyone want to be a teacher in Ohio. Why would anyone want to risk their lives for $8 an hour. People seeking to work in the above professions will leave the state seeking employment else where. College enrollments across Ohio will decline. The tax base in Ohio will decline raising taxes again on the remaining middle class. By the way why doesn't any of the "yes" people gripe about the exorbitant salaries of Kasich and his administration.

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27lilgandee(103 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

My mom worked as a nurses aide for over 20 years, a few years ago they voted in the union and it was the worst thing they ever voted for. Their medical went up to $400 every two weeks, that is devastating to workers. No waitresses, and aides I know have money put in their retirements, and my husband doesn't get money for retirement or sick days unless we pay into it. We pay a great share for all our dental/vision and the anthem plan between deductibles, co-pays and percentages. There are only two plans to choose from. When you work for the government it is because you chose it but you shouldn't be anymore deserving than the rest of us. I know plenty who work their tales off for nothing-like insurance, sick pay or retirement funding. That goes for most service jobs so who looks out for them? I thought I was a democrat but then I saw how anti-family our dems are and now I am Republican. I will be voting yes on Issue 2 and hope those whose family members do jobs with no thoughts of their future will too.

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28conservative4you(14 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

what the pro issue 2 people really do not understand is that this is Kasich & company's first step in the elimination of the middle class in Ohio. after issue 2, then they will go after the private sector unions, then they will proceed to pass laws that will eliminate the rights and benefits of all working middle class people in Ohio, while public dollars are funneled to a select few. . The hand writing is on the wall. All these supporters of issue 2, are guilty of what's called "shooting yourself in the foot"

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29honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

hey lilgandee, my wife is a nurse in a non union shop, they have to work with unsafe pt loads, no brakes, and forced overtime, and your gonna compare a nurse, or medic or ff or pd to a waitress or an aide, not the same, and we have a retirement because we dont get social security, i pay into it, but i wont get the same as someone in the private sector, and when you have a job that tears up your back, neck, and muscles because its a physically demanding job, what are you supposed to do, lose your house becuase you had to carry someone down 4 flights of stairs that weighed 400lbs. and guess what, i have horrible dental, horrible eye ins. i pay 140 out of my pay every 2 weeks, thats 280 a month plus have deductibles, and yes we chose to do this job,so ........to be continued

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30honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

.....continued,, so when we all decide that the 8 bucks an hour pay is no longer worth breaking our backs and risking our lives to help, who's gonna do it. actually do some research on wages, the private sector makes more yearly income than the public sector, nurses, fireman, and cops, can be 4 year degree's, but are usually 2 year degree's, a private sector associates degree will make about 15 to 20 grand more than public, a 4 year will be 25 to 30 more a year, look up the facts, dont just buy into what people tell you, dont take my word for it. its your state too

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31honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

and my statement about comparing waitress to firefighters and cops is not a slam on waitress's, they work hard, its a demanding job, and its in the service industry, but it is not a public servant position like fire and police and the training that we go thru and the work conditions are different. again i'm a fireman, i have horrible eye, dental, but good health, i pay monthy out of my check, there is no gold card that lets me get the best medical anything and i work damn hard for it

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32Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

You get one vote and the rest is BS and I for one will vote no,no,no on this

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33khuz(7 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Its not just about public employees! It is the whole freaking Middle Class that Kasich and the GOP are gunning for. He is going after public employees unions now, next it will be the private sector unions. Kasich is still working for Wall St. The people of Ohio also need to Stop his efforts to Privatize the Ohio Turnpike. Vote NO on issue 2.

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34Philo(99 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

The public sector union members are getting desperate. They would have you believe that private sector unions will be targeted next, as a fear tactic. Individuals have the option to patronize or not patronize private sector business' whose employees belong to private sector unions. Not so in the public sector. Whether SB5 is recalled, or upheld, the writing is on the wall and public sector unions are on the way out; probably sooner rather than later as taxpayers are fed up with their bloated wage and benefit packages. Actually, every public sector job that can be privatized should be privatized. There are numerous studies that indicate the majority of these services can be subcontracted to the private sector with better results at less cost to the cash-strapped taxpayers of Ohio. One only has to look at the great job the Catholic schools do and at far less cost. Every child in Ohio should have the choice of using a voucher to use as he or she sees fit. Many other services could be privatized as well. Vote YES on Issue 2.

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35Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

NO < NO NO NO

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36NachoCheese(161 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

What Ohio needs is RIGHT TO WORK! We must put an end to the unions holding people hostage as is the case now. Yes on 2! Yes on RIGHT TO WORK! Save Ohio before it is too late. The union mentality has pretty well killed off Youngstown, but much of the rest of Ohio can still be saved. YES ON 2!

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37busy(12 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Its a shame that the Youngstown Police are grouped in with the great teachers and brave firefighters. They haven't exactly proven much recently. Have they given up on the missing Avalon Gardens owner? Have they had presence in the community in order to help prevent the 3 shootings in one week...and the 3 murder trials that recently were in the media?
They are corrupt and inept...I'm sure they can dig in their pockets for this one....

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38lilgandee(103 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Ok honestman you chose your job just like my "unworthy" aide of of a mother who worked with more people on her side than she was allowed and her body is busted up but since she isn't a nurse, fireman or cop she doesn't compare with your overworked under paid self. I understand your heroism thinking that if not for me you pions will be SOL! My husband remembers the all important points but I see what I believe. An example is my 6 year olds teacher was awesome last year n so far this year but the kids she hangs with were not so lucky. Her teacher would be on the chopping block because of her time in but a teacher my older kids had would be safe. No thanks. My husband and his knowledge and my eyes are where my vote comes from. What makes America great is you vote your way while I vote mine! Good luck for both our ideals.

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39honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

first off, i never said she is unworthy but you cant compare the jobs, and guess what she could be in union, i dont think i'm a hero, never said that, but i do have certain skills that took more than 2 years of schooling to get. it was a comparison of degree's and again someone makes a statement about bloated wages, your kidding right, cause our wages are public record as well as our contracts, look it up, go to serb of ohio, put your money where your mouth is, bloated yeah right, its easy to say harder to prove, more rebublican bs, you can say it, now prove it. private vs public. 2 year degree, its all on the net, till you show me some bloated examples of wages i say your full of crap

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40honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

one more thing lilgandee, you do have a retirement, social security, we dont get that, and for the record i'm gonna state your the one that used the word unworthy, i never did, and as far as the teacher comment, i understand the theory of tenure, we even have a person or two who really should be fired, but instead of taking an axe to the whole system how about fixing the problems, how about some accountable standards that people have to follow. that would be reasonable.. it would also show good faith on govt part. but no they want to destroy the unions that way we can all make 8 to ten bucks an hour and they'll have more money to give themselves raises

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41lilgandee(103 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

You can say whatever floats your boat but our fire department is all volunteer and throughout Ohio (all over the country for that matter) it should be. Your thougts are entitled as are mine. Single me out for what I see fine. Unions suck private or not, go to any mill to pick up pipe and they can take hours. My mom lost more than any positive with her union. The voters will vote on this then we will all know where Ohio stood-for or against!

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42honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

oh i get it we should do it for free, i started as a volunteer, and thats great at night when everyone is home and can run a call, but what about during the day, when everyone is at work. avg response time for volleys is the ten min mark, avg for full time 5 min, not because we are better, they do the same job, we just are already there, we are also medics and we use part timers to keep manpower up without all the expense. and while our taxpayers pay about 100 bucks per 100000 of house value twice a year, they pay nothing if they use the ambulance, we bill the insurance and whatever is left over is a wash. and i'm not singling you out, i also responded to philbo with facts, so keep your opinion because i know where your coming from, but we dont lie, i see the pro 2 stuff and its a big stretch, again the broken record will say, no soc. security for us and avg pay is less than private sector

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43lilgandee(103 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Ssecurity what a joke and the will it be there when needed is a joke. My mom retired at 62 & gets $520 a month while ssi people get more money and benefits like medicare. I never said anyting about wages just why I am voting yes. Time is up.

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44Education_Voter(838 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Philo- Here's a story you missed:
http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/oct/13...
Parochial students who receive vouchers must take the same test as public school students, which is how we found out that they tend to score in the lowest third in math and science.
Try these statewide and local scores from the Ohio Department of Education:
http://education.ohio.gov/GD/Template...

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45skittles(7 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Really, Mr. Rugola??!! Your statement," The forces that are arrayed against us today, their voices of intolerance that we hear on the airwaves and their moneyed allies on wall street, have one motivation and one plan in mind only. And that is to destroy and wreck the American middle class." You sound like you're from another planet. So once the middle class is destroyed does that mean that they are dead or just that now the evil forces will have to support them. How stupid is that. The only ones that really need to be "protected" are people who don't deserve the job they have. If you are doing your job with integrity, mental and physical strength, and are proud of what you have done, you don't need the union. I believe our Police, Firefighters, Nurses, Teachers and so on are people who have compassion, character and work hard. There are always some in every occupation that spoil it for the rest because they are loud and obnoxious. My question is WHY in the world do we want to protect them?

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46Cowboyfan(105 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Dear Newsmaker1 Fire and police were exempt from Wisconsin’s law

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47honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

once again we talk about the great benifits package, lilgandee for the record retired firefighters are currently paying about 400 a month for thier benifits, not free, the only real perk is accumulation of sick time, but we have a high occurance of getting hurt. nature of the beast, toycannon, you really think issue 2 is gonna bring more people to services, your crazy, we have a fair bargining program in place now, the problem is governing bodies dont want to be fair they want to just say this is the way it is. its pure union busting, i agree people should be accountable to do their jobs, this goes way beyond that, way beyond. the real problem is big business leaving the area because they can pay 3rd world countries pennies on the dollar, where we actually want to make a decent wage. god forbid they only make 5mil a year, instead of 20mil, a yes on issue 2 will make every job like working at wal-mart, we'll put our butts on the line for petty cash, there will be no middle class, just rich and poor. its class system all over again

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48AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Unions aren't needed in Ohio? Really??

Then why is Infocision giving signing bonuses to new hires when unemployement is 9% ? Maybe poor working conditions, poor treatment of employees, EXACTLY why we need unions.

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49Education_Voter(838 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

toy cannon said,
"And school teachers, they are worried about two things, their pensions and their medical benefits."

Not really, toy. Teachers don't get their pension contribution paid for them. That's a perk for managers, not union workers. And we pay what SB5 suggests already.

What I AM worried about is taking away our voice about class size and safety issues like fresh air and sufficient supervision of the children. I want a voice in the materials the central office chooses -- I'm the one who actually knows how they will work.
SB5 doesn't change my pension or health care -- but it does change work conditions.
The teachers' work conditions are the children's learning conditions.

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50doubled(210 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

Hey Philo, you said "The public sector union members are getting desperate." Let me ask you something, have you seen the latest polls on SB5?? You're not even close to being correct in your baseless comment. Oh, and one last question, does it hurt your head when you tell the truth...b/c you obviously have a real problem with it. SB5 is a referendum on kasich -- and ohio can't stand him.

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51fd6636(255 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

We got here because radical republicans who lied to voters in past elections want to remove the two party democratic system of goverment, remove middle class workers voices by eliminating unions, which usually support democratic canadates, and turn that two party democratic system of goverment into a one party socialistic, capitalistic form of goverment where the top 5% are filthy rich, all controlling of the other 95% of Ohioans who would become slaves to the right wing"masters"! THAT, my friends, is how we got here. Not budgets, not reforms,(which mean cuts) is why were under assult. The middle class is not why we are here at at this point: Control of the ultimate wepon is why they are here. Its called control. VOTE NO ISSUE 2, AND SEND THESE BAST#$DS PACKING!!!

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52honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

hey toy, again with the bloated wages and pensions, here's a question for everyone, what is a fair wage for fire, police or teachers, and toy, as ive said before you use the term but cant produce a number, so from now on, i think toy and every other pro issue 2 person is purple, there i said damn p'surple people, i said it with absolutely no proof, but it must be true because i said it. and as far as bitching about private making less, i know alot of people from gm, timkin, sams club that have pensions, we also put into our pensions just like other people. we pay for out benefits, more and more each year just like everybody else, stop feeding the lies, yes there may be a fire dept with great wages, they are few and far between, saying everyone is made huge wages would be like me saying everybody who works in the private sector makes as much as a ceo of a corp. comeone, and i dont hate or antagonize other people because they do well, good for them, dont let rebublicans set the middle class against itself. Look at kasucks plan for the turnpike, look at indians's turnpike, the only people who are making money is a select few, stop buying into the lies, they dont care about anybody but themselves, and any money they get they will just give themselves raises,

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53honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

toycannon, the private sector makes more than us, so they contribute more, what your saying basically is the private sector should make more money than public service and have the same pension as public service. so private is better than us, ..... traditionally fire jobs as well as police and teachers made lower cash but the perk was the benifits, but god forbid we have any edge on the private sector, again do your really know what our benifits are????? if you make it to 35 years without going on disability your get 72%, most people get 60 % out of that we have to pay 400 to 500 a month for benifits thru ohio police and fire, which fire has to be in. if you worked another job and get soc sec. its cut, if you didnt work anywhere else, you dont get any. and i pay into it as a ff. that doesnt seem fair. we pay 10% into our retirement. some get pension pick up from govt, but those are becoming few and far between. i know one dept just gave it up completely for new hires. again i now pay 10% for my health care plus have terrible eye and dental. always have. its great to say private sector, remember we are talking about people with at least associate degree's and 4yr degree's. you cant compare us to jobs that require no schooling. thats not fair, thats like comparing a sports car to a sporty economy car. and all kasucks wants to do is line the pockets of himself and his buddys. get the unions out and then the real pillaging can start. just like indiana did with the turnpike, he's gonna do here, and its all for his good old boy network of college educated ruling class elite cause clearly his time on wall street taught him everything he needs to know about screwing over the people

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54honestman(33 comments)posted 2 years, 9 months ago

anyone want to know the wages, its the web, type in avg pay for ff in ohio, columbus 40,000, y-town 39,000 cinci, 40,000 etc etc, also type in private vs public sector, it will give many states most point towards actuall govt as in politicians and their staff making the most, hmmmmmmmm curious the people that want to cut our pay make more. i actually went thru about ten sites yesterday and only one states that ff's avg 67,000 a year. that was a national site, and if someone knows of this dept please let me know, cuase i'd like an appication. i pulled up ohio specificly and what i posted above was only a few of the depts. i listed the biggest there are many more so by all means people look it up

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55L0L(640 comments)posted 2 years, 8 months ago

But lets still bash the union workers like everyone does, lets blame the union public workers for all the ares economic woes and lets keep thinking that they have it sooo much better than the private sector. Tier 1 workers at GM make $58k and got a $9k bonus this year. I dont believe I recall public workers ever getting a bonus....

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56L0L(640 comments)posted 2 years, 8 months ago

@toycannon

Let me back you up a bit there.
"GM is a company based on making a profit"
-Dont cities, townships, villiages etc do the same thing? Try to make money on taxes, grants, inheritance tax, etc to make money?

"If they don't make a profit they are soon out of business."
-You mean like they were about to be a couple of years ago until MY tax dollars bailed them out?

"A bonus for a public employee?? They are paid from tax dollars."
-Again, apparently GM is too since my tax dollars allowed them to stay afloat.

"Let's see, public employees deserve a bonus so let's wave a magic wand and poof...Yeah, more money for those public workers!"
-Well why did the GM workers deserve a bonus? They woke up just like public workers and went to work, put in their 8 or so hours, punched out, then went home. Sounds like a day in the public workforce as well. So why does GM workers deserve a bonus and public workers dont? I'll answer for you. Because you are a private sector worker who is either bitter about not being a public worker or arent getting your private sector bonus so now youre just plain mad!

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57Oop81269(16 comments)posted 2 years, 8 months ago

Let me give you some info directly from SB5. If an employee is SUSPECTED of taking part in a strike he forfits TWICE his daily pay for those days that he is SUSPECTED of having taken part in the strike, but, it is up to the employee to PROVE that he did not take part in the strike (what if he was in the hospital) and has to sign a sworn affidavit and go to court to get his money back. 12 People APPOINTED by the Governor, President of the Senate, and the Speaker of the house; all of these get paid out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and reimbursed for all "operating expenses paid for out of THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND and according to Ohio Revised Code 124.15 which means that the can make as much as $32.00 per hour for a 40 hour week and they don't pay for their health care because they are state appointees and get it for FREE! (2) Members shall receive compensation fixed pursuant to division
(J)(A) of section 124.15 of the Revised Code and shall be reimbursed from
the school employees health care fund for actual and necessary expenses
incurred in the performance of their official duties as members of the board. THEN there are another 18 bureaucrats appointed to watch over these 12, all with the same free ride. Oh and I almost forgot, They also get to hire their own aides and these get paid for out of the SCHOOL EMPLOYEES HEALTH CARE FUND. For each and every profession listed in these adds they are going to add more bureaucrats that will cost even more tax payer money. How does any of this sound right to you? Don't beleive me?
OK, here is something to actually read.
At the very least make an educated vote and don't be one of the "sheepeople" blindly following a political party. Here is a link to all 304 pages.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload...
Project Vote Smart condensed version.
http://www.votesmart.org/election_bal...

And this page will link you to all the ballot issues in Ohio.
http://www.votesmart.org/election_bal...

This page allows you to look up all the Ohio Revised Codes that the are talking about.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc

Copy and paste these links into your browser. Get informed. Make an informed vote!

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