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Ohio needs SB 5 to rein in unions

Published: Sun, May 22, 2011 @ 12:00 a.m.

Ohio needs SB 5 to rein in unions

For some time now, The Vindi- cator has published letter after letter bemoaning the end of the world as we know it based upon the passing of Senate Bill 5. As if somehow, that single law is alone going to take the state down a dark path from which there is no return. Just what path do you think we are already on? There is no money — it cannot be said any clearer. It is not the spending policies of the current governor and General Assembly that left Ohio with an $8 billion budget deficit and no painless way to fix it.

With $4.15 gasoline, increased food prices, product shortages and high unemployment, just where do public-worker unions think the taxpayers are going to find the money to continue to pay for unsustainable levels of benefits? Even affluent areas like Canfield and Poland recently voted down new tax levies forcing those districts to curb spending. We the people are tapped out.

As with their counterparts in California, Wisconsin and Indiana, Ohio public-sector unions are protesting while not offering any viable solutions of their own. How about some facts instead of emotional reactions? SB 5 still allows unions to bargain for wages, working hours, safe working conditions and provides for the right to negotiate to ensure law enforcement has the proper safety equipment. Only benefits are affected, and guess what, we in the private sector pay into them already and at a higher percentage than what is being proposed. Decisions to fire or lay off an employee can no longer be based only on seniority — you actually need to look at job performance. You can no longer get a raise for just showing up. Disputed contracts can now be put on a ballot for voters who pay for them to decide. What about those union dues? SB 5 prohibits payroll deductions for political contributions without the written permission of the employee, and if employees don’t want to join a union for their job, they no longer have to pay “fair share” dues.

The Pew Center found that it will cost over $3.3 trillion to pay all current and retired public-sector benefits in Ohio. It is underfunded by about a $1 trillion, making Ohio the fifth worst state in the comparison. The road we are on is not sustainable.

The proposed referendum on SB 5 this November will have consequences. We can either get our financial house in order or continue on the existing path and end up no better than Detroit or California.

Dana Malatok-Hughes, Struthers

Religious display at City Hall

Recently, on a visit to Youngstown City Hall, I made a discovery that really struck me. I’ve never before noticed the very large granite monument of the Ten Commandments located inside the Phelps Street entrance. Having a religious symbol in a public building, where citizens of all religions and those of no religious affiliation bring their civic business, makes a mockery of the idea of separation of church and state. (It’s also unconstitutional.)

The insistence that this country began as a Christian nation is a lie that will not die. Most of the Founders were Deists. That most Americans are nominally Christian misses the point.

The Constitution, a secular document by which this nation is governed, calls for the prevention of “tyranny of the majority”, and has no mention of God. Freedom of conscience rules in the public sphere. Some will argue that the Commandments (or Decalogue) have various versions, and are part of other mainstream religions.

This isn’t logical either, because as we learn more about the human brain, we realize that the way we treat each other and govern ourselves comes from human values that would evolve with or without religion. Deep human connections are made through shared values.

Religions attempt to do this, but they often ultimately become divisive, separating us into groups with competing Gods and world views. Either we are a democratic republic or we are a theocracy; the two cannot both be right.

James Rogers Jr., Youngstown


1Nonsocialist(710 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

The analogies between the Roman Empire and the USA are stunning, except we self destructed so much faster.

I wish we didn't steal the playbook from the losing team.

Labor unions are our version of the Praetorian Guard. Both are/were only concerned about enriching themselves at expense of the state. Both support(ed) any leader that will buy them off. Both aggressively attack(ed) anyone that threatens their privileged position.

The root cause of most failed nations: Too many placing self above country.

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2paulparks(235 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

We are at the "tipping point" in this country - where we have to decide whether teachers, like everyone in the private sector has to face the economic realities foisted upon us in these times. Are teachers better than everyone else, unaffected by "real world" concerns, or are we all on the same team - sharing the country's successes AND failures? I single out teachers among public employees because
(1) they have become the greatest political presence among public sector employees, &
(2) they have the greatest mechanism for protecting their "turf" - using our children as hostages - in decreasing services to protest failed school levies.

We have become of nation of "haves" and "have-nots" defined today as public and private workers. This, in particular applies to teachers and their super powerful union. Who else, (even in the public sector) enjoys regular raises during recessions? Who else can retire after 30 years working only part of the year? Who else enjoys the security, public-esteem, and job security of today's teachers? My daughter's roommate in college went into teaching because as her roommate said, "I'm lazy." Not that all teachers are lazy, but the system greatly protects the overpaid, lazy and incompetent among the teaching profession. When will teachers finally admit they've "got it made" and thank the taxpayers for making their lives so nice? All the private sector gets is criticism when a school levy fails - never credit for the troubles we've endured or for rational thought. I don't know the fate of SB5, but I do know that teachers need a lesson in humility and teamwork.

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3Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Well I see the haters are out in full force with the same lies

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4paulparks(235 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


What lies?

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5NoBS(2215 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

paulparks, what lies? Let's see . . . public employees are all overpaid and underworked. That's a lie. Public employees make more than their private sector counterparts. That's a lie, in most cases. Public employees do not pay into their own pensions. That's a lie. Public employees get their health care for free. That's a lie. Public employee union members are only concerned about themselves. That's a lie. Public employees are all selfish and greedy (but not lazy). That's a lie. Public employee unions have the upper hand in contract negotiations, which makes SB 5 necessary. That's a lie.

And, SB 5 will save money for the state. That's a lie. SB 5 does not do away with collective bargaining. That's a lie.

I can go on all day.

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6paulparks(235 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


No one said: ALL public employees are overpaid. Teachers HAVE NO PRIVATE SECTOR COUNTERPARTS in terms of salary, working conditions (9 mo./year), perks, bennies, raises, % contributed to health insurance and retirement; the teacher's union EXISTS FOR THE BENEFIT OF TEACHERS, PERIOD! The kids are only a far distant consideration (e.g. cuts to busing and services - hurting students/parents), BUT NOT THE POWERFUL TEACHER'S UNION - no "share the pain" to maintain services when a levy fails; agreed that not all teachers are selfish and greedy (but many,many of them are and their union certainly is); look the 10% raises plus step raises, and bonuses given in the Poland and Canfield school district the last 3 years and tell me teachers DON'T have the upper hand in negotiations; SB5 WILL save money for the state, otherwise why would the benevolent unions be opposed to it; SB5 DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH COLLECTIVE BARGAINING - it just pulls back some of the powerful "overreach" of the public sector. BTW, please go on all day with more "lies."

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7rocky14(764 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

theotherside---you said it all
Gov Koch and SB5 are going down

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8rocky14(764 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

SB5 has nothing to do with our 8 billion dollar deficit.
It's only to try to break the unions
It's not going to work you haters

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9grand4dad(208 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Amen, theotherside. Well said. Too many people out there who don't know much about the issues surround SB5 believe all the ugly propoganda put out there by Kacich and company. Read the bill folks. This is NOT about saving money, it is ALL about power and busting the unions.

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10Stan(9923 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Enough of this SB5 controversy, get off my back . . ..


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11VindyPost(436 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

We all know very clearly it's about Union Busting, that's a fact... folks are very much aware of the hidden camouflaged areas.

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12Stan(9923 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Don't just maintain your high standard of living, raise it ! Tax them to the limit one more time !


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13cambridge(3299 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

I'm going to help out all union hating teabagger/republican types with a solution for your problem. Below is a list of "right to work" states.

Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Do yourselves and everyone else a favor and move to any of those states. No unions, no Democrats no "progressives", just people that think just like you.

One more thing you will get if you move there, the awakening that in the end when there is no one left to point at and blame for your miserable lives you will finally know why the rest of see you as the losers you are.

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14rocky14(764 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Taxes were higher in the 1990's
No problem there
One of the big problems was during Bush years when 2 wars were fought and nothing was paid for---except for the lives of the young.

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15Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

paulparks I see you got your list . But it will mean noting to you as it is easy to see your eyes and mine are closed like most of the haters on this page .
But the sun is out a little today so go out and enjoy it .

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16Stan(9923 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

cambridge :

No hatred is involved . It is all a matter of balancing what is available with what needs paid .

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17cambridge(3299 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Stan.....That's where you're wrong. It's all about the hatred of something someone else has and the rest of you don't.

Everyone makes choices. Some people chose to belong to unions and some didn't. Now the the people that chose to not belong to unions want the the people that belong to give up anything they have that the people that didn't want to belong missed out on.

You know what? Tuff S..T!

I gave you and your little friends the solution with that impressive list states that are "right to work". Just move there and you will be in your own little paradise.

But you know what else? None of you will pick up and move for a better life because you are all cowards. I think people like you have this conception that life owes you something and the first time you hit a bump in the road you give up and look for someone to blame your own laziness on.

What's it like to spend your whole life living somewhere you hate? I have to say it's definitely fun to watch.

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18redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Yes cambridge, Florida, where I spent my whole working career is a right to work state and I am glad of it. One of the first things you will read somewhere in every right to work charter is that workers are free to join a union IF THEY WISH!!! it is not mandatory to belong to a union in order to work at a particular job. I know that is a problem for you but it worked great for me. Whole bunch of union retirees would trade their pensions for my 401.

Sometime back I was really amused by someone, may of been you, who replied to another post where the writer was not happy with having to join a particular union in order to work at a certain job.. The comment to him was if he did not like the union he should not of applied for the job. That mentality amazes me, I thought the most important thing was getting a job you wanted, not the union.

Now this poster was probably someone who felt that he could advance on his own merits, not when BUBBA who had one day seniority on him croaked or retired.

And yes cambridge, as to your last comment about my miserable life, in April I had to decide which classic car to bring to Ohio for the summer, the Corvette or the Nova. If I had been a union type someone would of made the decision for me.

How is old Moonbeam doing out there in California, everything squared away? No new taxes I hope!!!

One last thing, you don't comment that much anymore but when you do you seem very sensitive, Is that a S.F. thing?

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19VindyPost(436 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Since Cambridge listed the states available for union haters, teabaggers, and the whiners to relocate as an option for their satisfaction in life...I must add ...if one is tapped out on taxes, fed up with union workers, etc just try and relocate elsewhere and see where the dollar stretches...because Ranked #1 is Indianapolis, IN and its surrounding areas...and Ranked #2 is Youngstown, OH and its surrounding areas for most affordable cost of living and most affordable housing.

That being said...folks don't know how well they got it...try moving to another state and try to make ends meet.

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20Stan(9923 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Hey Cambridge :

"I have to say it's definitely fun to watch. "

Yea, watch dis . . . ..

Obama sends da message . . ..


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21redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Post, I don't know about Indianapolis but if any one wants to come enjoy the affordable housing in Ytown, especially the southside, I would advise them to read the vindy for about a week or so first.

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22redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Post, as someone who lives 6 months in Florida and six months in Ohio, let me give you a real world comparison on expenses.

My house in Ohio is a three bedroom 1 bath with basement and a two car attached garage. My house in Florida is a three bedroom, 2 bath on a slab with a two car attached garage. Both built in 1972 with around 1200sq.ft. each. Pretty much the same thing.

Now let me list my operating expenses for the 12 months at each home even though I am in Ohio May thru October and Florida November thru April. The abbreviations are pretty simple to figure out.

......................... Oh................. Fla.

WSTG.............$ 332............. $ 329
ELECT........... $ 279..............$ 321
GAS...............$ 593.............$ 311
CABLE/INT.....$ 803..............$ 616
TAXES...........$ 1471.............$ 609
INS.................$ 427..............$1577

TOTAL........... $ 3905............ $4284

The Florida taxes include Flood insurance which I am required to buy even though I do not think I need it. But the law is the law. When I am in Ohio, my AC in Florida is set on 85 deg. to keep the moisture out of the house. When I am in Florida my furnace in Ohio is set on 45 deg. to keep anything from freezing.

Now I can guarantee you that my AC expenses in Florida in the summer (April through mid November) would not come anywhere near what it cost for gas for some of my neighbors up here with similiar size houses last winter. I think my insurance costs in Florida will be lower this year but I do not know that for sure.

I find food costs to be lower in Florida due to the longer growing season. gasoline prices run about ~8 cents a gallon less.

In summary, I disagree with your assessment that other parts of the country are necessarily more expensive than this area. If you have real facts to disagree with me then let us see them.

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23borylie(884 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Cambridge, Stan.....That's where you're wrong. It's all about the hatred of something someone else has and the rest of you don't.

This is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read. This is all you left-wing wacko's do is hate us republicans/conservatives for having something and you libs trying to take it away from us in the form of higher and higher taxes.

People do make choices and when you libs make the decision to not work,get pregnant at fourteen,take drugs,don't go to school or get the wrong degrees,you and your ilk want us that are successful or at least self reliant to bail you ninnies out.

And don't throw one your red herrings out here,you know a link to some Media Matters site that makes as much sense as you do. None.

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24VindyPost(436 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago










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25redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Post, you just do not get it do you? Why do you think all these places you listed are so attractive, it is because of the law of supply and demand. There are a lot more homes available than people are interested in buying. I am not going to waste my time trying to explain why this is. In one of your links Detroit was listed, Ya Buddy, How many want to move to Detroit???

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26VindyPost(436 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

the proof is in the pudding....

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27rocky14(764 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

redvert---i'm in South Florida right now.Can't wait to get back to Ohio.
Oh by the way---there are plenty of homes for sale here---no one want's them--except all the illegals that are down here.

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28redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Yes rocky, there are a lot of houses for sale in Florida, just like everywhere else. The reason there are a lot in Florida is because the housing boom was much larger in Florida than it was in Ohio. Which homes do you think will end up sold sooner, the ones in Florida or the ones in Ytown? Be honest now. But, never fear, obowser and his girl Maxine and Barney will try again to get 100% mortgages for the illegals (future democrat voters) so they can buy. After all, the housing collapse was Bush's fault.


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29AnotherAverageCitizen(1176 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


I bet most school teachers/police officers/ school custodians cannot afford two homes in two different states.

WOW and you complain about public workers salaries??????

Reference post 27,
Most cities have drugs, shootings, murders, corruption, and gangs. Youngstown is no different. Just the other day there was an article about a 1st grader in Pittsburgh brought 18 packets of drugs to school.

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30AnotherAverageCitizen(1176 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

""Ohio needs SB 5 to rein in unions""

The title of this article says it all. Its all about the UNIONS. Its not about the money. If it was all about money, the article would be about ALL PUBLIC TAXPAYERS, not just union.

There are many public taxpayers that are not union and kasich is not making them pay more for benefits yet. He does not need to wait for sb5 to change their benefits. But NO. NOTHING is being done to save Ohio money from nonunion public taxpayers.


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31rocky14(764 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

redvert---you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to housing.
You compare house buying in Florida to house buying in Ytown.Can't do it
There are cities down here I wouldn't buy houses in either.

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32AnotherAverageCitizen(1176 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Ya, Rocky....

Redvert got his apples and oranges all mixed up and he also got twisted up regionally referring to housing and its market and affordability---it was late...he needed a nap!

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33redvert(2162 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

I agree with you Rocky, I wouldn't buy houses in a lot of areas of Florida, South Florida especially. Let me say that south Florida especially has the same problems that the southside of ytown has. My original reply to "post" had to do with how these reports on attractive housing in certain areas fail to include the negative sides of those areas. I referred to one of VindyPost's links where it listed Detroit as one of the top areas for affordable homes. Would you like to move to Detroit's inner city?

I rest my case!!!

ps: As far as being able to afford two homes, it is all about thinking ahead and not just feeling that the state is obligated to take care of you. Sure, you may have a comfortable retirement but you may not have the extras you would like.

The company I worked for had a 401 program where they matched the first 6% I contributed every year plus contributed profit sharing. I saw people in their 50's that were not contributing at least 6% yet were driving a new car every year.

I believe in the old saying, "he takes care of he who takes care of himself"

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34AnotherAverageCitizen(1176 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


your company matched 6% over and above your salary. Did they also put 6.2% into Social Security?

My math shows that 12.2% above your salary. How can you complain about schools putting in 14% for teachers? Why is it OK for your employer to do that and not OK for schools to do that?

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35cambridge(3299 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

AnotherAverageCitizen.....The reason redvert deserves his company matching part of his 401 contribution and paying into his social security is because he worked hard and took care of himself and the ones like us that belonged to unions did nothing all day and collected money.

It's kind of amazing how a clown like redvert knows so much about the unions while never belonging to one. In over thirty years as a union member all I ever saw was bust your butt or you got sent back to the hall by the field foreman who was also a union member. If the word got out that you were not a good worker you basically sat on the out of work list forever or until you quit the union.

Of course since redvert knows more about it than I do I guess that would make me a liar.

It's kind of funny how impressed he is with himself because he owns a house in the valley and flordia. I could sell my house in California and buy his house in the valley twice and his house in flordia twice and have money left over. The guy is a poser.

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36Cowboyfan(105 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


More lies below

"Good letter about SB5. I am so tired of the Unions and the Democrats lying about whats in it. Time for public sector employees to be put on the same playing field as the rest of us. Why is it ok for you to only pay 5-9% of your health cots, have your employer pay in some cases 100% of your pension, while I pay 20% of my HC and 50% of my pension? Thats a big reason why the state is going broke; public sector unions are bleeding us dry. "

The Truth IS...
I pay 80/20 insurance like everyone else in the private sector. I pay 15% into my retirement. I protect you and I don't even know you. Shouldn't I be compensated? I make 40K with 20 years in. AND I PAY TAXES.

The state is broke because we let all these companies come in and pay minimal taxes and then leave when their tax break is up.

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37JME(801 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

"I pay 80/20 insurance like everyone else in the private sector. "

Is that copay for medical services received?
What % of the premium do you pay, compare that to the private sector.
Thought so.

Cambridge, don't you have the circumcision hot issue to worry about? Nice picture of you btw.


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38Stan(9923 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago



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39m__dogg(12 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

We need to lose the union control and its money sucking ways. If it worked so well all these years looking out for the working man, why didn't they keep our jobs here in the U.S. The unions seemed like they were doing oh so much for the working man during the good times, but it's easy to look good when the economy is great and money is plentiful. However, the true value of any entity is how they work and survive during tough and difficult times. As the economic times grow more difficult, the strength of the unions are evaporating. It's like listening to Jim Trafficant talking about how much he brought to the valley, when any educated politician doing their job would have brought the same or more help to the valley without all the BS, crazy talk, kickbacks and mafia associated crap. The unions are done because they have to work with little or no funds, and they were only in the game for the money and power. We better get used to it, and the working man needs to use their brain, work harder, take care of their health better and save more money for the future while spending less on needless material junk. America's strength was built on each individual doing more than their fair share without complaining and without worthless caretakers (unions) looking out for us just to take money from us and blackmailing big corporations for millions of dollars. Enough is Enough!

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40m__dogg(12 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

It's funny how a lot of the courses given in college for teachers are at lower levels than for other professions. You would think for such an important job as a teacher, colleges would require students take top level courses along side your doctors, engineers and lawyers. However when I took a physics class, my teacher friends took lower level physics, chemistry, biology ect. They boast about having all the holidays off, great health insurance, summers off and easy extra money in coaching sports they never played as a child. Yes, many of our teachers are overpaid within the collective bargaining agreements while our education system is still subpar compared to other first class countries. We are out of money, we cannot continue to pay the same wages bottom line. If we don't break these contracts, the Fed. govt., state and local govts. will have to lay off people to make up the difference. We can adjust our retirements, salaries and healthcare or many will be laid off to make up the difference. We must just face it, our country is in dire economic straights, and change must occur or bigger consequences loom in the near future. The people must not believe it's coming because I still see big SUV's, lines for the newest cell phones and video game while endless workers are busy texting, sexting, playing on facebook or scrolling through endless pages of nonsense on the internet instead of working. I'm off the clock now, but I wonder how many are currently on the clock reading the Vindy online and making comments instead of working. Makes you wonder if our heads are really in the game of getting our country back in the right direction or are we just sports fanatics, video playing fools, facebook bums or texting machines???

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41LtMacGowan(689 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Yeah to hell with the F.O.P.'s support for killing S.B.5. What do our police forces know ?

Seriously how much of your income is taken to pay for union collective bargaining, pensions and such, 3%? 4%?

This is why our country is crumbling. We want all this stuff but we never want to pay for. School district in trouble, having problems retaining good teachers, have way too many students per teacher ratio? CERTAINLY you shouldn't vote yes on tax levies for the schools. My god that extra $200 - $300 you ll save that might buy you that new leave blower you've been wanting, that's certainly worth our children's education.

Nobody wants to fund Welfare either, until they lose their job, or if their child get seriously sick and the crappy private insurance you have won't begin to cover their health care services, Or you never think something will happen to you, a car accident maybe and then suddenly you are disabled.

If you want a first class society, you have to be willing to not only pay for it, but WORK for it, get off your ass and help your community. Not vote no on every levy or tax, then scream about the roads being so bad, or the police taking 20 minutes to get your home during an emergency.

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42charms(228 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Unions have ruined our country.

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43jupiter(116 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago

Instead of being jealous of others, why not attempt to improve your own situation in life? THAT is what is so laugh out loud funny about all of this. The sad truth is on November 8th the bill will be killed, Shannon Jones will have egg on her face for being forced to even propose it, and life will go on. Locally Tom Humphries will be forced to resign for his ineptness in general and his recent stunts in specific. (How can anyone who has a problem with what a teacher is paid NOT be angry about what he makes?)
Hopefully, we as a state learn from this...

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44charms(228 comments)posted 4 years, 1 month ago


May your prediction on SB5 be as good as the Betras prediction that Strickland would win...

Also, jealousy does not drive teacher criticism, it's the ineptitude of some in education and the glorious "over-the top" compensation packages of some teachers.

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