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In defense of teachers



Published: Sun, May 22, 2011 @ 12:00 a.m.

In defense of teachers

Well, the time has come for someone to stand up for the legions of wonderful educators in this area. Lately this profession had been maligned, cursed and accused of sending this country into its economic woes. The paper makes accusations that make my head spin. And it accuses anyone who dares to question it as not being intelligent enough to ask appropriate questions.

Yes, I am an educator and have been for 35 years. I am proud to say that my family has combined experience in education of over 127 years. We have worked in grades K through 12 and in administration. Most of us came into this profession when business was booming and companies were providing their employees with generous annual increases, free medical insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, employer donations to a pension fund and matched contributions to 401ks. Most of them received two to six weeks vacation or more and 11 paid holidays. Which means that they worked on average 15 days more than teachers did — and they didn’t have to go to school nights or summers to keep their jobs. I know that well because my husband was one of these people for many years.

At that time, teachers were working for far less than most other professions. There was minimum insurance and we have always paid into our pension fund. We had summers off, but most had to work other jobs to be able to provide for their families.

The profession has finally reached the point that is comparable to livelihoods of other professions. Unfortunately, this has come at a time when businessmen have made a mess of the economy. We are not responsible for this, but we are being attacked constantly. I invite any of you to spend an entire day with 24 kindergartners or 4th graders or be responsible for 150 high school English students and then decide if we are in fact not paid enough for what we do.

This nation has been served well by the public school system and its teachers for generations. Who do you think educated the people who are throwing darts at us now?

Carmella Smallhoover, Poland

Honesty brightens a day

The other day I stopped at the IGA on Youngstown-Poland Road to purchase some groceries.

A couple hours later I decided to go to another store, but I could not find my billfold. I searched my car and could not find it. I realized where I thought I had dropped it, so I went back to the IGA.

Long story short is that it had dropped out of my jacket pocket in the parking lot. A customer found it and turned it into the office. The person did not leave their name so I have no idea who to thank for their honesty.

This is such a refreshing incident when we hear so much about thievery and other crimes. I pray that this individual will read this and know that I appreciate their honesty. This action reaffirms my faith that there are still a lot of good people in this world.

Gail Taylor, New Springfield


Comments

1AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very well put Carmella Smallhoover.

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2paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"[teachers are]...accused of sending this country into its economic woes."

(1) teachers live "on their own plane of reality." I have not seen it said anywhere that teachers caused this country's economic woes. They just refuse to live in a world where economic woes effect the poor taxpayers who pay them,
(2) this is a wonderful trip down "memory lane" but the rest of us have to live in the real world where teacher compensation, perks & bennies are "out of touch" with what their employers (the taxpayers) can support,
(3) you well may be worth every penny you earn but many teachers are overpaid,
(4) I'm glad your profession has finally "made it" but at what expense? ...kids that are passed up by other kids in foreign countries, unions in cahoots with the BOEs that make it nearly impossible for needed recession-based concessions to take place, a culture so "upsize down" that the private sector has become the "servant" of the public sector...
(5) I get it that good teachers work hard, but really... we all work hard! That's why society pays us for what we do. It's the bad teachers that are overly protected by your powerful union that bothers us... mediocrity and incompetence that would not be tolerated in the private sector.

"The profession had finally reached the point where it is comparable to livelihoods of other professions."

Really?

(1) I don't know of any other profession in the "75% club," where its only expected that you work 9 months out of 12 and retire after working only 30 years - (75% of the time others can begin thinking of retirement),
(2) there is a theme of "hurt feelings" in this letter that is common among teachers - because they can't stand to be criticized, even when it's warranted,
(3) no other profession has regular raises and step raises during a time of "economic woes,"
(4) teachers always want "gold stars" for what they do... I never see teachers thank their employers (the taxpayers) for making things so nice for them.

(5) Finally, I always see teachers take credit for kids doing well, when we all know that parents have always been the primary teachers of their children

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3SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Paulaperks,
you should never send you kids or grandkids to a school. Why? There might be some nasty teachers that belong to a union. Home school is for you!!!! Why not move to TEXAS, they already do wht you want Kasich to do. Perhaps that is why they are always in the bottom 5 states in the union educationally.

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4spinman(70 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I do not know of any other profession that gets 24% contributed to their pension by the taxpayer. While the administrators contribute ZERO !!!

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5VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Yes, nowadays...?as true colors come out in people and the mighty dollar they are disgruntled over with "tax" ...oh boy... I believe if one feels such hatred toward our school teachers and if they totally disagree with their pay and refuse to accept and give credit to reality in this decade ... then Home School is for them and their families... (no big deal) Frankly, It will not be the solution because it's evident that the parents are ALREADY sending the children and toddlers off to "Day Care" and "Pre-School" ! (and parents immediately either back to work OR EVEN STLL a stay-at-home-mom/dad)

Perhaps, suggesting with another approach and relieve the flagrant attitude... parents need to consider keeping their kids at home until they are 18 years of age and educate them to the best of their ability. Therefore, Teach / educate your own children and you will be much, much happier without the gripes. On a positive note to say to the folks so bitter...Home School is not so horrible, so.... "bond with your kid!" Best wishes.



Otherwise, HUSH on our valued educators. the teachers are not getting the recognition they truly deserve. I see jealousy, envious and that creates your own hardships.

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6ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

In defense of teachers?

What a opening comment? It should say, Indefensible attitude of teachers, they should know better than anyone if you do the math, the combination of raises, step raises and benefits such as health insurance and pensions, if allowed to continue are absolutely unsustainable without taxing the rest of the people in their districts into bankruptcy or default on their property taxes and just walking away form their homes.

Why do you think some teachers in the Poland Schools went against the wishes of their union, fellow teachers and administrators and voted against the last levy? Why, I will tell you why they did the math is why. And I applaud them for their courage.

@VindyPost:

Why make this a US against Them issue? Because you very well know it is not, this is about the control the unions have and the fact that they have gotten way too strong for their own good. Nobody will say no to them is the real problem, this is not about whether the teachers are respected or appreciated, because we all know and tell the teachers we appreciate them for what they do. In the end it comes down to what you can and cannot afford.

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7FifthAve(168 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

(1) I don't know of any other profession in the "75% club," where its only expected that you work 9 months out of 12 and retire after working only 30 years - (75% of the time others can begin thinking of retirement),

You do realize that teachers are only paid for 9 or 10 months; they go 2 months, at least, without pay. That's why so many teachers work in retail during the summer months.

You have never heard of the military? They retire after 30 years. So do the police and firefighters.

5) I get it that good teachers work hard, but really... we all work hard! That's why society pays us for what we do. It's the bad teachers that are overly protected by your powerful union that bothers us... mediocrity and incompetence that would not be tolerated in the private sector.

Teachers, like doctors, attorneys, etc, get paid what they are worth from the neck up. This is hard work but not nearly as hard as the one who is a laborer (skilled or unskilled) who is paid for his strength of body.

Finally, your cyncial attitude shows that you must not have been a top student; otherwise, you would have shown more gratitude to your teachers and more respect for learning.

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8meagain(80 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Wow. What hate! Do some of the haters even bother to read the articles or comments they're commenting on? So many of the questions or rebuttals you continually post have been answered or defended. Did you not read where the lady explained about vacation days compared to summers off? You coninually request teachers take wage reductions and it has been shown to you that there isn't even enough money there to make up for deficient funding. But really let's tell a teacher that makes 45K pre tax that you what him/her to make 10% less. Take out taxes and all of the other deductions and you have someone who is close to qualifying for food stamps. I'm sorry, I've been told the economy is bad and I certainly see some families who are hurting but by and large people are still heading to Disney, to the beach or other vacations. I see plenty of luxury cars with temporary tags. Have you tried to get into a restaurant on the weekend? My point being you continually bemoan how awful the private sector has it. From where I'm sitting it doesn't look so bad. Of course that's the problem with looking at something only from the surface. It rarely tells the whole story, but that's how the haters insist on viewing public sector workers and anyone who thinks SB5 is a bad idea. And thus why they feel so complelled to defend themselves.

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9ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

@FifthAve

You are an educator I gather, so why are you posting as if you are so uneducated? Maybe you were not a top student in college yourself?

You do know teachers have the right to spread out their paychecks over the 12 months or only while they are working. That is a choice. They also are making more than most in that 9 months than most make in 12 and on top of that salary have the ability to take work albeit part time away form another person just trying to make ends meet?

Sounds fair to me, but as you stated I must not be a top student. Real disrespectful words based on the fact that you do not know me, only an assumption on your part. And we know the analogy of assumption is.

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10Education_Voter(843 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I'm still trying to figure out how the taxpayer contributes 24% into my pension fund.

Oh yeah. I remember. Even after I cash a check for services rendered, that money never really becomes mine.

It is still the taxpayers' money when I contribute to my pension fund, or buy groceries, or pay the paperboy.

Does the money then become the paperboy's money, or is it still the taxpayer's money?

Of course there is no recognition of the work done by teachers to earn that money. That is invisible to these commentators.

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11spinman(70 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

To education voter....you might want to get educated on the perks of administrators in your school system. Principals....superintendents...athletic directors ...treasurers...etc...contribute zero towards their retirement..As a teacher in Poland you contribute 9.3% and the other 10.7 is picked up by the school district (tax payer). What is so hard to figure out ???

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12Education_Voter(843 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Actually, your numbers are off, but regardless, the employer does not contribute 24% by your own admission.

Some administrators are highly paid. But the vast majority of teachers do not get the perks you mention.

So much for the supposed evils of collective bargaining. The administrators do not belong to teachers' unions and negotiate their compensation individually.

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13grand4dad(195 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

@spinman, Education_Voter is correct. I don't know of ANY teachers in our local districts who get their pensions paid for. They all contribute 10% of their salary towards their pensions. Maybe the private sector should start contributing more than the 6.2% they are currently contributing, maybe then social security wouldn't be in the mess they are in. You want the private and public sector to be equal, how about private sector paying more towards their retirements? Also in SOME (not all) of our local school districts, administrators DO get ALL of their pension paid for. I do not agree with this. But as Education_Voter pointed out, these are NON UNION people. What excuse does the Board for these districts have to pay these excess benefits to these non union people, they are not bowing to any pressure by evil unions, they are negotiating individually with these people. SUPPORT THE TEACHERS! They are average middle-class folks, working hard to earn a living. They are not evil, greedy, lazy, or incompetent for the most part. You can point to any profession and show that some are not performing up to standard but most teachers I know go above and beyond to do well by our children and grandchildren.

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14ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

@meagain, "Did you not read where the lady explained about vacation days compared to summers off?"

Yes we did meagain, you need to brush up on your math, teachers still have a few holidays and additional days off during the school year that total 2 1/2 to 3 weeks additional off, winter recess and spring recess comes to mind, along with the summer recess. So how do do your math to compare that to the private sector eligible vacations and paid holidays? And I hate to inform you it is not the norm to have more than 3 weeks vacation and the usual 9-10 holidays off during any year. So you still have about 2 months over the vast majority of us and still make about 25-30% than the average household in the surrounding suburban communities, by yourself, and that is most household incomes which is comprised of 2 incomes.

So I give you a D- on your math meagain.

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15VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

That's part of the curriculum...if you want year-round education, teachers will certainly work year-round.

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16ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

You missed the point Post, meagain was stating that the educators have no more time off during any one year that the private sector worker and I just showed them the math that disputes that.

2 1/2 - 3 weeks plus assorted federal holidays including the summer recess, is way more than any average private sector by a mile. And to boot they make 25-30% more than most suburban households by themselves. This is also compared to most households that has two incomes.

Sounds fair to me?

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17VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I Am Not Missing the Point...pick your poison..your argument and debate is "shallow"!

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18ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

So you get a D- in math also. How do come up with a shallow argument?

The original quote you are defending is: "Most of them received two to six weeks vacation or more and 11 paid holidays. Which means that they worked on average 15 days more than teachers did."

This is so far off that to say teachers work only 15 days less than most private sector workers is misleading at best. This may be true f they count their part time summer job and then they only take a short vacation during the summer months? Other wise your argument has no basis or facts Post. How about some facts to support your side of this debate? Your short unsubstantiated post about picking your poison is immature at best.

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19VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

You must be a school teacher "grading" everyones post.

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20ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Your silence with any facts is your ignorance. You apparently must not be a teacher.

You are the one who called my argument debate shallow. Who has egg on their face now? I know. VindyPost.

Remember Post, there was some Poland teachers that voted against the last levy.

Being called a school teacher? Should I be offended?

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21AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

ytown,

Since your math is so good, and words mostly spelled correctly, you should be very proud of your teachers you had in school. Did you have summers off when you went to grade school?

Its many parents that complain to schools, when year round classes are talked about. So don't just blame teachers for having summers off.

I guess you don't like banks either, they don't usually work past 4:30. I assume you don't care for lawn maintenance either, they only work 6 months a year.

But you probably want the fire dept to show up at 3:30 am. And the emergency open for YOUR advantage at 4:00 am.

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22ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Post, what galls me is when educated people try to play it out that they actually work a full year and only work 9 months. We all can do the math here, there are 52 weeks, 365 days and 12 months in year in case I needed to refresh your memory. I also never brought up the year round school, you did.

I am apposed to someone comparing themselves to the private sector when if you do the math, their pay would works out to be much more than somebody that works all year, and they do not have the opportunity to work a part time job during the summer without working 14-18 hours a day.

Your last comment "But you probably want the fire dept to show up at 3:30 am. And the emergency open for YOUR advantage at 4:00 am." is completely incoherent, maybe it is a little past your bedtime?

My words mostly spelled correctly? That is incorrect grammar if my 3rd grade English teacher did her job well enough.

So good night Post, you need your rest school starts early.

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23AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

ytown, maybe you need your rest also. Post did not say most of that, I did. See nobody is perfect, NOT EVEN YOU.

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24ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

My Bad, I hope you were not offended. If you were I apologize.

I also never claimed perfection, no need to yell.

Could you please explain your last comment,
"But you probably want the fire dept to show up at 3:30 am. And the emergency open for YOUR advantage at 4:00 am."

Or maybe that is what your reference to not being perfect is referring to.

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25AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Many folks complain about high cost of fire and police. But most want/need them to be available 24/7.

Let me explain it this way. If your house caught on fire at 3:30am, Would you want the fire dept to come at 3:30 or at 7:00 when most of the rest of America starts working?

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26AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

It was Strickland who tried to get OHIO to go to 200 school days, up from the current 180. Strickland went to 3 calamity days and kasich switched it back to 5.

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

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27AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

One more question.

In the private sector what is a masters degree worth in salary in most major corporations?

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28SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

An old saying goes" you can fool some of the people all of the time (SB5 supporters) and fool some of the people some of the time (those who have voter regret), but you can't fool everyone all of the time" fits here.

Teachers can only work with the best sent to them un like private school and charters that can send them back to the public schools. TEACHERS are grossly under paid in this country. If the republicans in Columbus would have fixed school funding as court ordered. But the real solution is in welfare. I can send my child to school one day a month and let him fail as a result. The school and teachers get the blame and I get my welfare check. If Kasich wants to turn education around, which he doesn't, tie student preformance in the classroom to the welfare check. You would see test scores go up yesterday.

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29Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

This what the tea party , GOP, and Gov. K---KK has done . Now some , a lot of us . HATE teachers , Fireman , Policeman , and even the dog catcher . . WOW who is next .

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30paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Carmella,

"The better your teachers do, obviously, the better you'll do. After all, principals should make more than teachers." Agree with R1200GS - the better the private sector does, the easier it is to sustain high salaries in education." Bottom line - In today's fractured economy...can we afford educators making over $80K a year?

BTW - Carmella's latest income as a principal is $82,662 a year.

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31VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"In Defence of Teachers"

35 years in career, continued education: earned Associate's Degree, Bachelor's Degree, Master's Degree and P.H.D.
(P.H.D. in many cases) and certificates ---now a Principal along with integrity, commitment, dignity. (and student loans) That's quite the accomplishment!! I feel 80K is fair for a Principal of schools.

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32paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Please, VindyPost - stick to the facts. I don't know about Carmella, but I would say very few principals have Ph.D. degrees. I would think she would have signed her letter "Dr." if she were one. Also, on Masters Degrees... a dime a dozen. What? 3 summers of classes? Most teachers have them (and we pay them a raise when they get it!) And R1200GS, I wouldn't think for a minute that Carmella doesn't have at least the same contribution %wise into her pension than the teachers have - which is about 14%. Maybe hers is more. Also, what raises, bonuses and other perks does she get every year? I think she would agree that she is compensated handsomely! But again, the bottom line question is: can we afford it? Poland voters, after finally having the "veil of secrecy" lifted by the Vindicator - have said loud and clear - NO! (Look for salary information on Vindy.com's Government Watch and at Buckeyeinstitute.org.)

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33VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos007.htm

http://education-portal.com/how_to_be...

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34VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I'm sticking to the question of Paul Parks
re: can we afford educators making 80k? This is ANY individual @Principal Licensure, not only Carmella @35 years Many, Many others

Some good literature above.

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35leoziggy(6 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

O.k....for the last time...Poland teachers get 24% into their pension..9.3% in which they contribute and 10.7% in which the district picks up. The administrators also get 24%...they contribute zero and the district picks up all of the 24%. These are facts...call the treasurer to verify ....

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36leoziggy(6 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Sorry....the district picks up 14.7 % not 10.7% my mistake in the previous post....for a toal of 24%

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37VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Good grief...wake up!

Poland is not the only school system in the state of Ohio and Poland is not the only school system in Mahoning County... voting and taxes are throughout the state and throughout all many counties ...then the many many school districts. etc..

Stick to the article: " In Defense of teachers "
( Teachers with an "s")

This is written by Carmella on behalf of all ---not restricted to Poland Schools, not restricted to herself--it's all educators in this profession.

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38meagain(80 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

My math is just fine - thank you. First off most teachers work into the 2nd week of June and return to prepare for the next year well before the end of August so your estimation of 3 months off is not quite accurate. Secondly, just as the haters LOVE to deal in the extremes and claim ALL teachers make outrages wages and have fabulous benefits I choose to work in extremes too. I know plenty of private sector workers who have accumulated upwards of 10 weeks vacation. So by my math of extremes it all evens out, but of course you only like the extremes when it works to your advantages. As for her salary - don't forget administrators work a different schedule than classroom teachers and considering the attitude of some parents and kids today (I sit at the ball fields and hear their comments) I'd say she earned every penny if not deserved more. Again you're all so consumed by what teachers make instead of looking at the larger issues at hand. Until you're willing to make those right and fix funding and the exodous of our dollars to charter schools things will continue to spiral out of our control at the expense of our kids.

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39paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

VindyPost,

There have been a lot of good posts here. The reason Poland is relevant is because:

(1) They, like Canfield have a good history with school levies until lately. What has changed? The economy (as Carmella pointed out - has gone down the tubes); dissatisfaction with the BOEs in both school districts in spending money wildly (especially the last 3 years on extra raises and bonuses); and the education of the voters in these two communities by Vindy.com's Government Watch,

(2) Poland is (after all), Carmella's school district, &

(3) Carmella undoubtedly shared in the outrageous "give-aways" of the last three years and is thus accountable to the taxpayers.

People in Poland and Canfield have had "their eyes opened" and nobody will be able to "put the cat back into the bag." You'll see more heart-wrenching letters from former students, educators and administrators in these two districts as November approaches. It remains to be seen if voters will remember the lessons we learned before the May Primary.

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40VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

...(taken from this article)

Unfortunately, this has come at a time when businessmen have made a mess of the economy. We are not responsible for this, but we are being attacked constantly. I invite any of you to spend an entire day with 24 kindergartners or 4th graders or be responsible for 150 high school English students and then decide if we are in fact not paid enough for what we do.

******************************************************************************

TO: All

Well Folks maybe we should all take Carmella up on her invitation?!

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41AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

VindyPost,

that's the BEST post on this board. Let's all RSVP to Carmella's Invitation and take a visit to the classrooms.

C'Mon people, let's go and decide for ourselves, exacting what she's requesting.

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42Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I just can't understand why there is such an issue with teacher's salaries and pensions. First of all, beginning teachers salaries are about $32,000 a year. Out of the $32,000 they pay 10% into their own pension plans with their employer paying 14%, so as with MOST PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES an employer is meeting or exceeding their 401K contributions, teachers pay 5 to 10% of their healthcare coverage, which is similar to PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES and teachers ONLY GET PAID FOR DAYS THEY WORK. Teachers DO NOT GET PAID VACATIONS. Teachers work 185 days a year but most teachers work days after school closes and prior to the first days of school in August without pay. But as people on here keep saying they don't work enough - well let’s see 365 days a year with 104 of those days weekends, now we are down to 261 days, 11 legal holidays now we are at 250, each member of the private sector gets at least 2 weeks minimum vacation, 10 days, we are now at 240, ok you got me teachers work less than you do 240 - 185 = 55 days more. That is right, Private Sector works more days but wait Teachers have PROFESSIONAL degrees so let's compare them to say Doctor's or Lawyer's -- oh ok -- Doctor's are closed at least one day a week - ok I see Teacher’s work 3 days less than Doctor's, Dentist's or Lawyer's. But of course you see us as public employees and not Professionals but we have the education of a Lawyer or a Doctor. But again we are just UNION people but the Doctor’s have the AMA, which is their professional association, which lobbies for the Doctors and the Lawyer’s have the Bar Association, again their professional association so the teacher’s have their professional associations but the State of Ohio does not value teachers as much as Doctors and Lawyers.

Do you realize that a teacher that does work summers pays into social security but will NEVER collect what has been paid into the system. But the PRIVATE SECTOR can have a company pension and collect SOCIAL SECURITY. Is that fair? I am a human resource manager in the PRIVATE SECTOR and these are the real facts. A person at my PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANY with 35 years experience and a MASTER”S DEGREE would make well over $180,000 with a pension (fully funded by the company), healthcare with NO contribution, car allowance, phone allowance, 5 weeks’ vacation and many other perks. I want my child’s teacher to make a good wage, it is only fair! They worked hard for their education and MOST teachers are excellent at their jobs. As for the author of this letter, she was and is one of the most extraordinary individuals and teachers in Poland. Her dedication of over 35 years is outstanding. I only wish that she would have stayed for one more year. She was and is well worth her salary and pension.

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43SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

well said Poster1. Well Said!

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44paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster1

(1) If teacher salaries and pensions weren't an issue, why the heated defense? I am glad you work for a fine company, but we taxpayers don't have to fund your operations. There is no "profit & loss" in schools, just more salary increases and tax levies.

(2) I know you like Carmella, but she did get a 10.64% increase in wages the last 3 years. No recession in Carmella's world! (This % isn't taken from an average - I've checked her salary numbers provided to the Vindicator by the Poland School District.)

(3) Comparing teachers to doctors and lawyers?... you must be kidding. Getting a Master's degree in 3 summers in no way compares to the grind of becoming a lawyer or doctor.

(4) You say that "Ohio does not value teachers as much as doctors and lawyers." Really? Ask Mahoning County Prosecutor Paul Gains that question. There are many teachers making in the 70's and administrators in the 80's WITHOUT Ph.Ds. This greatly dwarfs what many of Gain's lawyers make.

(5) You mention about teachers working in the summers. This is ON TOP OF their lavish salaries, perks, bennies, health care contribution by the district and their out-of-sight golden contributions made by the district to their pensions.

(6) Defenders of school levies love to cite starting teacher salaries and anti-levy people love to cite 30 year plus teachers' wages. But to be fair to everyone, let's use averages. The average teacher in Poland has to make at least 50K. (It was in the paper, but I forgot the exact number). This was published before the May levy vote, so people apparently thought 50K was high in this crumby economy - (combined with the 9 months of work, 30 years to a pension, & all of the other benefits including job security, etc.)

(7) My greatest argument is the vote count itself. You can "slice it" or "dice it" anyway you want, but to me it indicates that times have changed.

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45TchrsRock(3 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

People need to remember that not all teachers work in affluent suburban schools. Teachers who work in low income rural or urban communities don't make the "big money" that some of the bloggers seem to believe they do. As a teacher with a master's degree, I barely make $38,000 per year. My health insurance? No dental. Just the basic 80/20. No major perks there. My pension? Where I am employed, the teacher maximum pay is $55K for 18+ years. Oh, and by the way, our school has an "Excellent" rating. So, for those of you who think teachers don't teach and that the parents do all of the work: come visit our school where it is a battle every day dealing with extreme poverty. We still do everything we can to ensure that our students succeed even when their homes don't support learning environments.

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46BigJim2234(57 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I hate people who have jobs that have free gas cards, free cars and free insurance.Them the company passes the cost on to the consumer. I also hate people who abuse the workers comp, disability and unemployment systems. This causes the taxpayers to pay more. Teachers are the least of our problem in society that breeds greed.

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47VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster and TchersRock,

Excellent comments regarding education and its "profession" .

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48VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Please take into regard that the students today is our future tomorrow!
Some folks just seem to bark about taxes, union, and their pockets---but when they need a good physician, they want the Best out there, when they need a good lawyer, they want the Best out there, when they need a good dentist, they want the Best out there.
These are the graduate students w/ many degrees and the credits began with our great educators! The list goes on and on even regarding trades and special skills when you want to find the Best out there. So, dig deep in your pockets to find the Best out there and REMEMBER the students today is *Everyone's* future tomorrow---thanks so so much to our educators of America.

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49AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

All the complaining about teachers is because a few teachers at one or two schools make good money. Not great money, but good money. All these sb5ers think every public employee out there makes what some Poland teachers and Boardman Police make. They never mention all the public taxpayers making under $20,000.

Looking at Youngstown City Schools, there are not many teachers making over $60,000 a year. But all these sb5ers will not hear about any teacher except Poland or Canfield.

Jackson-Milton doesn't have any over $63500 and most teachers there are under $53,000.

SO for all of you that think sb5 will save Ohio, THINK AGAIN.

As Spinman wrote in post 11
"To education voter....you might want to get educated on the perks of administrators in your school system. Principals....superintendents...athletic directors ...treasurers...etc...contribute zero towards their retirement."

I would guess that most of those you listed are not part of the teachers Union. No contract there. No need to wait for contract to expire to make all those you listed pay higher % in benefits and retirement. The schools and state can start saving money NOW, but NO all sb5 is about busting UNION EMPLOYEES.

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50streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Vindypost

Yes, we all want great teachers but you are implying that quality rises with the teacher cost. This is a fallacy. Many new teachers are some of the best out there but some of the most seasoned ones are not so good. That's because the system rewards longevity, not quality.

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51AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Even gov kasich said he had to pay his new employess a lot to get the very best.
Usually quality does rise with experience. I agree some slip the cracks, as with any profession. But for the most part, with experience one becomes better at their job no matter what it is.

The children are our future.

sb5 will fail. Even if sb5 passes in November it will fail in the long run.

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52paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Here's the problem with compensation based upon longevity...

BOEs claim that every student gets a quality education, whether from a new or experienced teacher. Teachers must be certified to teach - so the state gives them its blessing. BUT a new teacher teaching first grade makes 32K and next door - another teacher teaching first grade makes over 70K. Now, there have been no studies done that I know of to prove that more experienced teachers do a better job. Unfortunately, the longevity standard asserts that the 70K plus teacher is at least 2 times as good as the 32K teacher. This is ridiculous! If this were true, nobody would want their kids in the new teacher's class. In fact , if a child were in a new teacher's class, they logically should get some type of "rebate." Couple this incongruity with over 10% in wage increases the last 3 years and you have economic disaster.

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53Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

paulparks

What do you do for a living? I pay a younger professional less because they don't have the experience or in some instances additional education. And yes experience and additional education matters in all professions. I sure don’t want to be the first open heart patient of a doctor, I would rather be the 500th. And yes there are some really good beginning teachers, doctors, dentist, auto mechanics, store clerks, plumbers and brick layers but as they gain experience they become better at their professions and thus should earn more. So teachers that have been in education for 20 years can be better teachers than beginning ones. I will also agree that there are first year teachers that can be good but they as with doctors, lawyers, dentists, brick layers etc. need additional education and experience. Those beginning teachers, doctors, lawyers, dentists, brick layers, etc usually mentors and other experienced professionals to help them along the way. Maybe paulparks you should investigate how other professions pay their experienced employees – I bet you the more experienced get paid more. So why do you feel that teachers don’t have the same rights?

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54paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster1

You keep glossing over the differences between the public sector and the private sector; you compare experienced first grade teachers to experienced cardiac surgeons; you cite other professions and craftsmen, but you fail to explain why one with 30 years experience should make over 2 times as much as a licensed peer. A plumber is a plumber, a brick layer is a brick layer, a teacher is a teacher. Also, a teacher's certification does not require that a new teacher be mentored - like some other lines of work. We all know that the teacher's union has set things up to skew earnings to unreasonably high levels later in careers because retirement amounts are based on the last 3 years of earnings in the public sector. You are an intelligent and passionate advocate for teachers - but please - don't insult us with "cardiac surgeon/first grade teacher comparisons" or imply that there is a vocational equality between the demands, compensation & retirement schemes of teachers and workers in the private sector. Teachers have "got it made" and everybody knows it. The explanation I'm waiting to see on this blog is why Poland and Canfield teachers got over 10% in salary increases (plus their step raises) during the last three years - in this lousy economy.

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55Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I am not glossing over anything. You as a non-supporter of teachers decided that anything teachers achieve or get is wrong. And you don't know it all because in fact teachers are required to be mentored their first year. As I stated before: "I pay a younger professional less because they don't have the experience or in some instances additional education. And yes experience and additional education matters in all professions." I will bet you that the "cardiac surgeon" you referred to makes twice as much as the state licensed first year "cardiac surgeon." You arguments don't stand up. You really don't know the demands of a teacher’s job and I believe that you are so closed minded that whatever I say will never change your mind.
In regards to the salary increase of the teachers in Poland/Canfield, I checked the ones that you indicated in Poland and the raises were 9% over three years including step increases. Most of the contracts that you speak of were signed by the BOE prior to the financial upheaval in this country. I am sure that you think that both the BOE and the teachers should have known that the bankers of this country - the ones that get paid more for their experience and education - should have known that hard times were coming. I believe that those same teachers are now freezing their steps and wages for two years. What do you want from these teachers? Blood. They too pay taxes, buy products and work hard. It is pompous people that think otherwise.

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56paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster1

Doesn't matter what I think - its what the people of Poland and Canfield think that matters. I'm tired of all this hairsplitting... "first year teachers need a mentor"... "raises were 9% instead of 10%"... The fact is that Carmella worked in a school district that is in trouble (Poland) and she wrote the letter to persuade people in Poland to vote for the next school levy. She did not identify the fact that she worked in the Poland School District in her letter. It's just by chance that I found out her income information because the paper said she lived in Poland & I happened to check that info. The voters of both Canfield and Poland have told their respective school districts they aren't happy. I think its because of (1) the economy, (2) dissatisfaction with the decisions of the BOEs and administrators, and (3) because of the information now available on Vindy.com's Government Watch. Maybe I'm wrong. But what you or I say is not going to swing the next levy vote. The voters will decide if we go in a new direction or let the BOEs stick to "business as usual."

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57meagain(80 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

First off- everyone becomes better at what they do the longer they do it and gain experience. No one is comparing the worth of one job to another by saying that as a patient you would prefer someone who has been at it a while versus someone just starting out. You parent better the second time around and the longer you get to experience life the better you get at what ever you choose to do as a career. That however is irrelevant. I don't think anyone is claiming you should pay seniored teachers more simply because they're better. You pay them more because at some point they have to earn a living wage. What you are failing to see is that people eneter into the profession (making $32,000) with the knowledge that they will, at some point, after 15 - 20 years make a liveable and sustainable wage. You can choose to not pay seniored teachers more, but in essence you will have to pay all teachers more up front and for a longer period of time. No one in their right mind would enter into the profession making $32,000 if that was all the more the would ever make in wages. The people making what you consider outrageous wages do so after many years of earning very little and only earn that amount for a short period of time. In essence you would have to pay every teacher AT LEAST $55,000 (which I still don't think is enough to attract the very best) over the course of their entire career. Which by the way tends to be upwards of 35 - 40 years if the current trend of retirees is looked at as the norm. We'll continue to disagree on this account because the people who educate my children are worth more to me. Again, I wonder why the profits (in the MILLIONS) of charter school CEOs does not cause your feathers to rufffle the way the wages of our local teachers does? Perhaps you have a deeper agenda or an ax to grind because if you were truly after the betterment of our schools that would bother you too. Those are after all your tax dollars.

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58NOSB5(1 comment)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Get the facts on SB5
Facts
Collective bargaining has not caused Ohio's deficit. Budget deficits for states without collective bargaining are actually higher on average. Before collective bargaining there were an average of 60 strikes per year in Ohio for public workers. (Policy matters ohio)

Facts
If every public employee in the state were laid off it would not come close to balencing the budget. Payroll makes up about 9%.

Myth "Salaries and benefits paid to public employees are way out of line compared to private sector workers"

Facts
Including salary and benefits public employees make 6.8% less on average than their private sector counterparts. (Ecomonic Policy Institute)

Myth "Teachers Work only 9 months a year and have summers off" "Teachers are lazy"

Reality
Teachers contracts are typically 8 hours a day for about 9.5 months, while in reality the workload for a teacher requires a couple of hours each night and many hours on weekends. During the school year teachers work an average of 52 hours per week which equates to 11-12 weeks of extra work per year. In many instances summer is an opportunity for training sessions, graduate work, developing curriculum, or recharging and spending time neglected during the school year with their families.

Myth "We should pay teachers based on Merit because teachers will work harder and perform better."

Reality
The vast majority of teachers work extremely hard and dedicate their lives to helping youth. Merit pay systems have been tried and in several cities and have shown no increase in student achievment.(National Education Policy Center) We have good dedicated teachers. Poverty areas struggle with test scores the most due to attendance and home issues. When comparing to other countries look closely at what you are comparing. Do they test each and every kid? Are some kids considered school kids where as others are not cut out for school. Know all the facts! Ohio continues to be a state with good schools while states without collective bargaining are the lowest performing schools in the state and look to Ohio each year to recruit teachers. Public Schools outperform Charter Schools by 37%. 1 in every 2 charter school fails. 3 out of 4 Public schools are rated excellent or effective while 1 out of 6 charter schools are rated excellent of effective.

Teachers earn their money and are not paid enough. I'm not so sure about the life of luxury that is being portrayed on these forums. Look at the real facts. Those who think they know what teaching is because you went to school have no idea what the reality is. I wish you could teach to see what it is all about and you might have a better understanding of the lifesyle fo a teacher.

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59AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Well maybe Paul THINKS the first year teacher should start at the same wage as the 30 year experienced teacher. Then all teachers in Poland would make $80,000.

PaulParks
OK, Poland and Canfield levies failed. You got what you want. You should be happy.
Do you really think a first year plumber is as good as a 30 year experienced plumber?

If teachers have "it made", go to college for the next 4-5 years and become a teacher. Also, continue on with your masters degree. Don't forget to do continued education courses. Enjoy your teacher-parent meetings, chaperone dances, coach sports for very little, class advisor, fund raising, and the list goes on.

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60mabell(23 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Some of the dumbest people i know,,,are teachers,,,,Think about it

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61AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

OK I thought about it. I don't agree with you.

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62commoncitizen(961 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

NoSB5, your "reality"comments must be picked out of thin air because I know from teachers that they do not work (have contracts) for 8 hr days.
This is the problem with most of these posts ---no real FACT, just BS

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63streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

This blog has degenerated into name-calling, put-downs and childishness. The fact is that the teaching profession is a fine profession. There are many good teachers and I thinck most of them try to do a professional job. The problem is that until Vindy.com's Government Watch and buckeyeinstitute.org - the average taxpayer was kept out of the loop on compensation, raises, and retirement issues. Don't be angry that we know what you make! Some teachers are probably overpaid and some teachers are probably underpaid - but really - with studies showing an extremely high rate of job satisfaction; the high security of the job and all the other "bells and whistles," - do you have it so bad? I think you are pretty lucky!

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64AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

This is a comment section. It does not say fact section. I have no FACT to back it up, but I would guess the majority of teachers are at their school 8 hours a day. Not including any take home work needed.

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65AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Street,

Many professions have it made. So What? A plumber asking $75.00 fee just for coming to my house, has it made. A lawyer charging $150.00 an hour has it made. Why on earth does nobody complian about that?

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66streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

AAC

These others who "have it made" are in the private sector. Taxpayers have a right to get the "most and the best" for their money when it comes to government employees. Even in the private sector, you wouldn't hire someone without knowing you were getting the best for you money!

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67meagain(80 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I find it slightly suprising that people are "suddenly" aware of teacher salaries. Or that they had no idea what a teacher made until the Vindicator or other sites decided to post salaries. It's a fairly easy thing to figure. Do you think the people who went into education had no idea what their compensation would be? Clearly that information is available. That "on average" information is available with a quick google search. Clearly we all have a rough idea of what the compensation is for any profession. Didn't that play a part when you were deciding what you wanted to be when you grew up? Clearly we all made those choices with that information in hand at one point in our life. Maybe now you know specifically what your child's teacher earns, but as I've stated before I'm not in the business of judging or basing a person's worth on what I assume their day entails simply because I went to school at one time or my child tells me about his/her day when they come home from school.

Also, last I checked the teachers weren't complaining, whinning or crying about anything. They didn't start the "mud slinging" if you want to call it that. They simply were defending themselves against untruths and unfounded accusations. Last I checked they were still allowed to do that!

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68AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Paul wrote

"after finally having the "veil of secrecy" lifted by the Vindicator - have said loud and clear - NO"

All Poland public taxpayer salaries have been public knowledge for many years. Just because the vindy has SPOON FED it to you does not mean it was secret.

So why do you have to be in the private sector to make a good living. These teachers are highly educated, dedicated professionals who deserve a decent wage.

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69ELJenkins(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Are people avoiding the concept of "you get what you pay for"? People are complaining about high wages? Raise the wages of educators and watch education become a competitive field. It's hard to attract the best and the brightest with the salaries slightly above the poverty line.
I make three times the starting salary of teachers by cleaning houses. Seriously? It's time to reflect on our values when scrubbing toilets is more financially rewarding than educating our youth.

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70spiritfree(3 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Dawgalong quite eloquently posted shortly after the May primary that the (levy) vote was a referendum on the ABYSMAL performance of administrators. Todd Franko succinctly cited that the vote clearly signaled to the BOE that they need to do more with what they already receive. It's that simple folks! I will not change the minds of ideologues and those ardently opposed to SB5; I wouldn't waste my time, but comment I will. The angst and righteous anger that is palpable in these posts resonates for good reason. Taxpayers are unwilling to compensate administrative incompetence or increase teacher and administrator salaries to fund their lucrative benefits. The website www.BuckeyeInstitute.com clearly buttresses all the monetary facts that have been extensively discussed in these posts. They are irrefutable and simple to comprehend. Canfield and Poland administrators and teachers are extremely well paid and we are free to opine that they do not merit their inordinate compensation. My personal favorite is Longevity Pay. State funding may be a legitimate issue, but it is a SEPARATE issue. People can quickly remedy the problem of incompetence and salary increases by not supporting the levy to send a resounding message to the Board. Who among us in the private sector are as unaccountable as these administrators and teachers? Who in the private sector can blow a budget by 30% and just ask for and expect "donations" to correct the mistake? Who among us in the private sector can have clients repeatedly request our colleagues because they find us offensive and unapproachable yet we are never replaced? I am requested to take a performance survey every time I shop at Kohl's and every time I drive through Taco Bell. Where is the survey to evaluate Canfield school leadership and Canfield teacher performance each year? Taxpayers and our children are the school administrators' and teachers' customers. Yet, if we the people fail to comply with their demands and pass the levy they solicit, then we and our children are made to rue the consequences. Bussing will stop, courses will be dropped, sports will be "pay to play" and
other various "punishments". Who in the private sector treats their customers with abject disdain and operates a flourishing business. No one. And therein lies the crux of the problem. No matter how poorly they do their jobs, taxpayer dollars will pour in and students will enter their classrooms because there is no meaningful competition and they know it! And until we change that, we will endure their abysmal performance and indifference.
Footnote: Seasoned teachers may have "more" hours worked, but more is not always better. Sometimes more is just simply more. They may have less patience, less charisma and less concern.

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71AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

......PaulParks Wrote:
A plumber is a plumber, a brick layer is a brick layer, a teacher is a teacher.

********************************************************************************
And PaulParks is simply just PaulParks!

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72streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

spiritfree,

"Taxpayers and our children are school administrators' and teachers' customers."

You have succinctly stated the fact that escapes many in the education system.

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73SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

If the teachers I had going through school had merit pay, they would have made nothing! Why? I hated them! Why? they challenged me and made me work hard to get to where I am today. If Kasich's plan goes through, Only the teachers that give grades away will get raises. Part of the formula will be student and parent approval of the teacher. (AKA Do they like me?) AT the time, I didn't like my teachers. However, 20 plus years later, I thank my teachers for what they gave me. Often times you cannot measure the results of an education until years later.
Another bogger made the comment about attendance problems as a cause for student failure. Do you know in Youngstown, a student can miss 150 or more days and as long has he/ she has made up they work the teacher MUST give them, they cannot fail!? Yet when time comes for state testing, they do not pass. The teacher had no control over this failure, yet they miss out on a raise because of the failure of the parent to get their child to school and the child for not doing his/ her part in the learning process.

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74AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Merit pay for teachers will be real bad in the long run. Who decides which teachers get a raise? The school board that so many complain about? Fellow teachers, you folks won't like that either.
How about sending out ballots to all the other taxpayers and they vote on which teachers get a raise. I don't know all the teachers in my local district but they can send me a list of teachers and I will pick a few names out to get a raise. Should the coach who only plays the best players abd gets a good record get a raise, or the coach with a bad record that plays all the players?

Measuring teachers by merit or grading them only ends up being the good ol boy system that does not work.

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75Lesthanzero(35 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

What an instructive thread this has become. The author boldly states "Unfortunately, this has come at a time when businessmen have made a mess of the economy." With absolutely no support or attribution for the charge, teachers (and students) of English composition will recognize this as an expression of naked bigotry; those who paid attention to news coverage of the Madison Statehouse demonstrations will recognize it as public sector union propaganda. Students of economics (apparently not taught at this educator's institution) know that "businessmen" as private entrepreneurs contribute substantially to the economy and CREATE wealth--a foreign concept to many teachers and their unions.

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76JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"Measuring teachers by merit or grading them only ends up being the good ol boy system that does not work."

Teachers want to be considered "professional", but don't believe they are subjected to the requirements of being a professional - Including pay based on job performance, and non-standard working hours.

Guess what, that's how it is in the real world for professionals. There are no set hours and you have to have results.

Having no merit-based rewards does nothing but create mediocrity.

Kasich has asked input from Ohio's public school teachers for suggestions on how to judge performance. Instead of whining about, make some suggestions. It's apparent that the teachers who are opposed are the underperformers.

Teachers@governor.ohio.gov

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/...

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77AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Including pay based on job performance, and non-standard working hours

So if Johnny gets an A, teacher gets bonus points. if all students get an A, teacher gets pay raise because grading scale is too easy.

Mr JME it's 10:00 pm, come pick the litte boy from school now, teacher just let class out. Non-standard working hours means our children will be at class all evening, midnights might even work better.

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78streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

We're on to an important topic here - merit pay. I would like to pick up where JME left off. First of all, there is a "merit based" system already in place for teachers. It's merit based upon longevity. Like any standard, it has its pros and cons. It gives teachers job security and a great retirement. On the negative side, it only rewards quality as that directly relates to experience - and there is no proof that quality and experience entirely mesh. Teachers argue that it does because their whole scheme of employment is based upon it. Some say that young teachers may be better because they have more enthusiasm and older teachers may become bored and burned-out. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. We all want the best teachers. They should be paid adequately. They should be able to rely on the traditional benefits of a career in public service - protection from the ups and downs of the private sector, reliable benefits and working conditions and the esteem of society. If I were a teacher, I would want these things. The question becomes, "Can today's society deliver on all the implied promises of security?" I don't know. We have a very sloppy democracy - where we have school boards making commitments before asking the taxpayers to fund them. They try to do their best "estimating" what salary increases, bonuses, etc. are warranted and that will be approved by the public. The letter to the editor here indicates that the economy is bad. She claims teachers are blamed for it, I think because the levy in her school district (Poland) failed. Unfortunately, when people vote for or against a school levy, they can't indicate on the ballot the reason for their vote. Some may blame the teachers, as the writer suggested or there may be a number of other reasons why the levy failed. No matter where you stand on school levies or SB5, I think we can all agree that we want to preserve what is good about our education system and find reasonable ways to improve it. As meagain stated in post 70, she doesn't feel she is in a position to judge a person's worth. We don't like being in that position, but unfortunately as the "bosses" of the public employees, we're called upon to do that. No one likes it - but it has to be done. Let's just not make teachers scapegoats for decisions made by boards of education. And let's not hold boards of education to the impossible standard of predicting the economic future of this country with 100% accuracy. Yes, the system can be improved - like any system - but lets do it in a way that respects good people of opposite opinions. Yes, our democracy is messy, but in the genius of that mess - compromise usually gives the majority what it wants.

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79JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

anotheraveragecitizen,

Thank you for proving my point, you would rather whine than come up with a solution or provide ideas.
Do you truely believe a merit-based system would be based on grades alone? How about if a teacher comes up with a better idea on how to educate, or a more efficient way to operate?
You must be a teacher because you have no concept of reality.

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80JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"Mr JME it's 10:00 pm, come pick the litte boy from school now, teacher just let class out."

anotheraverageteacher, the non-standard work hours comment went completely over your head.
Teachers belly aching over how they have to grade at home, or have to prep for classes. My point (since it was too fast for you), stop using that as an excuse for having to work some extra hours. If you want to be considered a professional, stop whining about the extra time. Your not punching in and out on a time clock. Professionals are not compensated for the additional time requirements of a job.

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81JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Where does it mention that students must receive an A for teachers to get merit-based compensation?

“a teacher's performance should be based on the progress students make in the classroom.”

“lower-level students should not be measured against higher-level students when judging a teacher's performance.”

"It's all about the progress that gets made," Kasich said. "The simple fact of the matter is we want to measure the amount of content that a kid gets through a year."

“Kasich said he would move to delay implementation of merit pay if he doesn't feel the metrics used to judge teachers are fair.”

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/...

ordinaryaveragethinker, please enlighten us to how the merit-based pay actually is structured. Keep in mind, the framework for judging teacher's performance is not due to the state Board of Education until April 20, 2012.

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82walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster1,
Let me help you with your arithmetic. There are 260 weekdays in an average year. Teacher's contracts bind them to 180 days of class session. Let's bind you to an additional 15 days for final grades, room closing and prep, etc. This leaves 65 days, which is 13 weeks of time off for holidays and vacation time. Plus, they don't work weekends. And, this time off starts in year one of teaching. It took me 15 years to get to three weeks vacation.

While teachers are professionals, their education is not even close to a doctor or a lawyer. After obtaining a baccalaureate degree, the student must then go to law school or medical school. Doctors then have to do internships and residencies for a chosen field of specialty. Doctors then must buy into a practice, which will further put them into debt. Lawyers also have to scrap their way in a starting practice. So, this comparison is invalid and unwarranted.

Teachers need to quit complaining and realize that they have a good thing going. Now that the public sees what they are making, the taxpayers just want to rein this in a little bit. I'm not a big fan of merit pay because public school teachers have to take everything that they are given. Basing it on passing grades and state tests is foolhardy.

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83cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

JME....Do you have a job? If you do have a job are you at work when you're posting all these comments about other people making too much money? Does your boss know?

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84dawgalong(86 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Spiritfree,

First of all, thanks for the props. Secondly, you streetsmart and about 2/3 of the voters in Canfield have caught on that something is wrong with the administration. Quite sad actually that the teachers are becoming the scapegoats for the architects of the bankruptcy.

Blame the people that have squandered the hard earned taxpayer money. Blame and hold accountable the heads of the districts, the BOE's, the comptrollers that allowed money they didn't have to be spent. Hold accountable and replace weak or conflicted leadership that has failed the taxpayers. Replace all and start new with financially educated business minded folks that would jump at the chance to make the kind of dough these incompetent, conflicted, fat cat blowhards are making.

But don't hold hard working teachers feet to the flames. Do some teachers make more than they are worth? Sure, but so do some of us. Reform the system by starting at the top. Canfield's BOE has failed to act and absolutely must be replaced for dereliction of their duties. Through their inaction, and I again remind you that I could not pick any of them out of a line up, they have failed at their duties and must be voted out of office based on their incompetence to fullfill the base responsibilities of their appointment. That is, to make changes when neccessary. They have proven that they are, in fact, shills of the administration through their inaction.

To any poster above that actually believes that their level of education is some sort of right to entitlement, I knew a guy who had a masters from Kent. He managed the lingerie dept at KMart. He was an idiot. I knew a young lady that had a masters from YSU. She believed that Lake Erie belonged to Canada. She was an idiot. I have never met anyone that boasts about their degrees that are worth a damn. Hard working, dedicated, strong willed, caring individuals built this country and continue to lead in all aspects of society and business. These are they types of individuals that should be leading the school districts irregardless of what degree they hold, or who they know, or their tenure. Let's try something new next time. Let's vote for qualified BOE candidates. Not the candidate with the cute apple sign.

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85grand4dad(195 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

dawgalong hit the nail on the head. It is the administrators and BOE members that need to be held accountable for the fiscal mess of many of our school systems NOT the teachers. As pointed out, there are some teachers not worth a damn just like there are in any other profession. I am shocked and saddened that teachers are being painted as lazy, worthless, greedy, etc. Let's put the blame where it belongs, with administrators (not union workers) and hold them accountable for the jobs they are hired to do.

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86TchrsRock(3 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

After reading all of the comments, I feel compelled to respond once again. I used to be employed in the private sector. I am now a teacher. Both occupations have their pros and cons - as is true of all professions. Here is the major difference: public school teachers must teach all students who live in the district......the bright, the special needs, the poor, the rich. Teachers cannot refuse service to a student who doesn't come to school, doesn't do their work, disrupts class, or is disrespectful. In the private sector, one may choose to service a customer or not. If they are impossible to please - sometimes it (the trouble) isn't worth the money. This is not true of public schools. Teaching 150+ students per day who come from a plethora of home lives and learning levels is a challenge for any new or experienced teacher. Teachers teach first and foremost because they want to educate - not because they have summers off etc. Please know this: it is not a "cushy" job. Is it fun? Some days, yes; some days, no. Do teachers love their jobs? Most would say yes. Okay, so what don't they like? What are they complaining about? It comes down to this: for whatever their reasons, the public does not respect the teaching profession. Period. Many in the public think that it is an easy job with great benefits. They believe that the education of their children isn't worth the teacher salaries (low or high). Well, before I became a teacher, I valued education. I believe in education. I want my children to receive a great education. How do you put a dollar value on that? Class sizes continue to increase due to cuts in state and federal funding. Pretty soon, class sizes will be over 35 or 40 students per class period. When your child is in one of those classes, and he/she wants to learn, but there are 15-20 students who don't care about school and don't value their education, what then? The teacher must continually enforce classroom management instead of taking care of the business of education. So, what's the answer? I don't know. I understand the frustration of taxpayers - remember I'm one too. What I do know is that teachers deserve respect if not your tax dollars. Remember, you wouldn't be able to make these posts without a teacher teaching you how to read, write, type, or analyze. As for the comments that teachers are nothing but "whiners" - when you've been beat up on a daily basis, as teachers have been for the past several years, you'd be upset too if your integrity and character were questioned.

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87SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Lets pay civil engineers on merit. when a bridge fails and kills people, they owe us money plus jail time for murder!!!!!!

when someone dies under a doctors care, we get money back plus the doctor goes to jail.

Since public schools are non-profit, charter schools that make a profit, anyone caught making $76 million off of the tax payers when all charter schools in Ohio are worse than Youngstown city performance should be put in jail plus pay back twice what they stole......oooooooh waite, that is the governors good friend....we can't do that now can we?

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88JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Cambridge,

What can I say, I'm good at what I do and delivery. Look up the word autonomy - being a union person I'm sure you don't understand the meaning.

You my friend must have a boring life to make so many comments on Youngstown and Ohio when you don't live here. I'll explain it to you again, I'm married to a public sector employee, so I'm way more knowledgeable on the subject than you are. That's how ridiculous the Ohio taxpayer is getting screwed, I benefit from the golden egg, but yet disagree with it. Kind of hurts your argument, doesn't it.

Speaking of envy at people making more money, why are you soo jealous of the wealth of the top 3%, because you weren't as successful?

Maybe someone who could buy 4 houses should be paying more tax, hypocrite.

Besides, don't you have the hot circumcision issue to contend with. You west coasters are all screwed up, it's no wonder California's budget is a mess.

How did you manage to get a photo of you on the front page. LMAO

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/c...

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89cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

JME....I asked you three questions and you didn't answer any of them. All you can come up with are lame insults. Pretty pathetic.

It's amazing that you you don't see the irony in the fact that you spend your time at work posting comments on the Vindy that other people are overpaid at their job and when I call you on it you call me a hypocrite. I think you're the one that needs the dictionary.

Maybe you got the impression from your wife that public sector employees are a bunch of lazy slobs. She probably picked up your work ethic.

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90JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Cambridge,

I don't have set hours (which include evenings and weekends), and often not sitting in an office. You must think the world revolves around a punching in and out of a time-clock. Some of us don't need a baby sitter to complete work.

Why are you jealous of the top 3% making more than you, answer that question hypocrite? Sounds like your bitter because someone makes more than you, and you want to bring them down to your level by increasing their taxes. How ironic that you would make a post bemoaning people as wanting to bring down the salary's of others when you constantly whine about the successful not paying enough taxes.

My wife tells me about the waste some public employees get away with. And she will be one of the first to opt out of paying union dues once SB5 kicks in.

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91JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"All you can come up with are lame insults. Pretty pathetic."

Cambridge,

You should include yourself in the description of pathetic since your one of the leaders on these boards as far as dishing out the typical democrat-socialist name calling when you can't support any argument with facts, which is quite often.

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92JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Sad-dad, just like Cambridge you change the subject and revert to insults when you can't provide facts to a discussion.
Why are you such a negative and miserable person.

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93cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

JME....So your wife tells you about the waste some public employees get away with. She ought to be telling YOUR employer about the waste one of his employees gets away with.

Oh by the way, I'm not jealous of anyone, although you seem to be jealous of everyone that has something you don't. Maybe if you had a decent job where you actually had to spend your day working you would have some of the things your neighbors have earned through their hard work. :-).

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94JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

You not jealous? So does that mean we won't have to hear your constant whining regarding the top 3%. Thought so. After all, your trying to bring down your neighbors because they did better than you. Oh that's right, you like to flip-flop.

I know your concerned about me, but I do pretty good with income and having enough time to deliver the goods and make you look silly on here. You must have been an hourly worker who had to have a set work schedule and be supervised because you weren't trusted enough to complete your work independently; it's apparent the autonomy concept is way over your head and ability.

You ought to pick up a hobby if you spend this much time trying to stir up trouble hundreds of miles away. How are you going to vote on SB5? Oh, that's right, you can't!

Now, are you going to come back with an insult or change the subject?

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95cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

JME....Your correct in saying I was an hourly worker. In construction everyone's work is evaluated every day. The first time your day isn't profitable for your company it will be mentioned, the second time they just send you back to the hall. Never had a problem because I have a work ethic, look it up.

The last fifteen years were spent in front of a computer building industrial construction projects in cyberspace. I'd go in early have a cup of coffee read the SF Chronicle and the Vindy on line. I never made even one comment on the Vindy from work ever. There's that work ethic thing again.

So if you're so proud of yourself for posting all your comments from work about other people being overpaid how about you brag to your boss about it and let me know how that works out.

By the way I just got my monthly news letter from my union and the membership voted on how to breakup the $3.75 raise for this year. $2.00 to wages, $0.85 to building fund, $0.50 for health and welfare, $0.25 for pension and $0.15 for training.

That brings the journeyman hourly rate to just over $51.00 an hour, foreman get another 10%. general foreman another 20% and senior general foreman another 30%. When I moved into the office I negotiated my own deal. I worked for all the same union benefits and always made from $10-$15 over journeyman scale and the contractors were happy to pay it. That's the kind of job someone with a work ethic has. Thought you might be interested.

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96JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Well thank you for your career history. I never doubted that you didn't accomplish a few things. Your thought process is completely out of whack though.
Here's the thing, I'm sure your fairly up to date with technology, but just in case your not: Work can go with you at home, on the road, and even on vacations. It's not just office time. Why can't you comprehend that? I don't get compensated by the hour, and many of us are on call 24/7 for approximately 360 days a year. As I said before, look up the word autonomy - my boss, like many, want to see results and have answers, which he recieves from me. So it's completely irrevelant when and where I browse Vindy.com.
Tell me, if you were on eastern standard time and you needed to communicate with someone from South Korea, how do you accomplish that during standard business hours? Being salary has it's pros and cons, but if you added up the hours it's much more than 40 hours/week. I don't have a problem with that or doing work during those non-standard hours because It comes with the territory - but it also opens up my day to do as I please.
I don't have a problem with the pay and don't believe the union rhetoric that they'll be subjected to minimum wage - please show us in SB5 where their pay will be reduced. What I do have a problem with as a taxpayer is that health insurance costs have exploded since the early 2000's. For some reason, the public employees feel that it's not there problem and that their employer should pick up the costs. Guess what, that's why allot of manufacturing jobs disappeared - Witnessed it first hand when the union refused to pay more, 14 months later the plant was closed.
The employer (i.e. the taxpayer) can't keep picking up these massive increases - that is no different than giving raises.
And speaking of raises, the average teacher pay in Ohio from 2002-2009 increased 41%, vs. inflation over the same time period which was at 21%.
I have no problem with someone making a buck (you apparently do because of your constant complaining of the top 3%), but 2x of inflation on the taxpayers dime? BTW, they also pay taxes, but with a return, I don't want to hear that excuse either.
Have you ever gotton raises that were 2x inflation over a period of 7 years?
Either control the costs or face continued layoffs, it's the people's choice in Ohio. Asking for more tax money won't be the answer.

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97JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

P.S - thank you for admitting that you could negotiate your own contract without a union. It helps prove my point regarding SB5; the good teachers (and all good public sector employees) have nothing to worry about and their effort will be rewarded - Just like the private sector. Do your job well and you don't have anything to worry about.
Have a good evening.

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98TB(1167 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

what if your administrator is incompetent JME?

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99AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

JME, but what happens when our boss replaces you for a cheaper wage. Or your boss decides he likes the other person better and gives you the crap job till you quit. Or you are told to train a new person and then that new person replaces you.

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100Spence(22 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I have read the posts here and I am amazed at the numbers of people that are blaming working people just like themselves when they should be blaming those who purposely are wrecking our economy. Wall Street banksters have robbed and are continuing to rob our country.

The $700 billion bailout was just the beginning. Some of the top firms have been given a slush fund by the Feds of another $200 billion. This is in addition to $20 trillion set aside in U.S. government-backed securities in case the banks lose again at their casinos. At the same time they are borrowing at the Fed's discount window at near zero percent interest. They are using this money to bid up the price of commodities just like they did in 2008. The poor and middle-class are bearing the extra cost of food and gasoline. Economists tell me that their speculation is adding at leaste 60% to the cost of commodities.

Then they have the nerve to lobby Congress to prevent the general economy to be helped. No money to provide jobs. No money for Social Security. No money for healthcare. It's all about the national deficit that they helped create.

There will always be a high national deficit when there is high unemployment and a weak economy. The only way to get the deficit down is to spend massive amounts of federal investment in infrastructure to create jobs. Cutting spending will only increase the deficit. The math is quite clear. This is not like your family budget.. this is macroeconomics 101.

Look at Europe. The countries with the highest GDP are the ones who have spent the most to recover. They are now benefiting. The countries that actually reduced spending are suffering the greatest losses.

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101JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Average,

Take a class/read up on human resource laws.

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102streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

TchrsRock

Your attempt to equate the private sector with teaching is misplaced. Obviously, you prefer teaching because you left the private sector to become a teacher. You say there are pros and cons to both private sector jobs and teaching but you refuse to face up to the negative claims made in this blog about teachers. You exhibit the "hurt-feelings" attitude that the writer of the letter to the editor exhibited, not because as you say, "your integrity and character is being questioned," - I think it's because teachers aren't used to being treated like the rest of us. We all have to answer to someone. Tenured teachers pretty much answer to no one. You say you have to teach all kinds of students - easy and hard - but did you just become a teacher to teach those who "don't really need you?" The greatest service an educator can render is to teach students how to teach themselves. But you seem uncomfortable with that. You claim "the public does not respect the teaching profession." It is because the public has so great a respect for the teaching profession - that we all are left baffled that you don't respect US. No thanks, just more raises! No appreciation, just stonewalling silence when school levies go down. No gratitude for making your profession one of the most stable & reliable among all jobs - both in the private AND public sectors. No empathy for the victims of the recession who pay for your raises and bonuses during an economic collapse. If anybody needs an "attitude adjustment," it's the high and mighty teachers, who need to come out of the ivory tower and dig in with the rest of us - sharing in solving today's problems.

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103SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Fix school funding and everyone wins. Here's how; everyone pays 1% income tax. That will raise enough money to fund public education in the state of Ohio. You then have the option to continue to pay property taxes for the schools. Only that money can be used to fund chater schools. End result, the failing charter system goes bye bye becuase if you have a choice to cut your property taxes, you will. So insteda of paying say 1,000 or more to schools most poeple will pay say 500 to 750 dollars a year. More people work than own property, so everyone wins.

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104SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Don't trust everything you read at BUCKINSTITUTE.ORG. It shows what a teacher will get form social secruity. Buckeye institute. get your facts right. Teachers as of 1986 in Ohio cannot collect Social secruirty. Ronald Reagon past a law that prohibited public employees from "double Dipping' as he called it. If you collect a public pension, you cannot collect social secuirty. Funny thing there, Reagan was OK with him collected three pensions plus social secruity for himself.

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105Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

StreetSmart

I am sick and tired of the high and mighty of the private sector thinking that they know what and how a teacher does their job. You don't have a clue because you DON'T DO THE JOB and until you DO, you do not have any right to judge them.

Hurt feelings?? Are you kidding me? Treated like the rest of you? Where are you living? Teachers have felt the same economic downturns as everyone else; they don't live in a bubble. They too have had wages frozen and paid more for their health care. I truly believe that the lies that the private sector is hurling at public employees is WRONG. The private sector employees have had it good for so long but you DIDN'T hear the teachers complaining about it. They simply continued to teach with raises of 1 or 2% when private employees were getting 5 and 10% raises. Teachers don't respect the US, where do you get that??? I am unsure of your true motivation for your posting but I believe that you just have no empathy for the teachers. They are the ones that have brought food and supplies (out of their own funds) to help their students that can't afford it because of the economic downturn. They are the ones that have given Christmas gifts for the families that couldn't afford them or food to the family that really needs it. Or the child that forgets their lunch money on a regular basis and the teacher gives them money? Is the taxpayer so blind? Who do you think pays for the tissues children use in the classroom or the decorations that hang on the walls? The teachers pay for this out of their own pockets.

What kind of response do you want from teachers? Most districts in this county have taken wage freezes and increased contributions to their health care. I live in Boardman and I know that these teachers have not had a raise in over 3 years and have paid more into their health care. How often are teachers suppose to thank the taxpayer, every time they get a pay check? What about the taxpayer supporting the teachers at some point in their careers? Tenure is their so that teachers can’t be accused of wrong doing without just cause because a parent or student is angry with their grade. Learn about tenure and the reason it was put in place in the first part before you rip it apart.

Maybe the US should value teachers enough to pay them a decent wage for the amount of work they really do and the amount of their own money they put into their jobs. Maybe you in the private sector should send some money to your local school district to help pay for the lunches of the kids that really can’t afford lunch because they just don’t meet the poverty level but have no money for lunches. The private employees in this country don’t know how it is help a student whose father just die figure out where the money is going to come from to pay for the funeral and then the teachers in the school pitch in and help – where is the private employee?

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106paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Poster1

(1) I believe US means "us," not United States.

(2) "lies the private sector is hurling at public employees"... I believe it's the TRUTHS found on Government Watch and in the Vindicator that is a cause of levy failure, like the fact that Poland and Canfield teachers enjoyed a 10% salary increase (plus step raises) the last 3 years.

(3) You are wrong about not judging. We make judgments all the time about people in other lines of work before we hire them.

(4) "Where there's smoke, there's fire." Have you ever seen times like these - where teachers' motives are being questioned like this? If this isn't because of the unprecedented "view" we now are getting about teachers' salaries - what is it? The truth only hurts those who are afraid of disclosure.

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107dawgalong(86 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Many have given concise corrective answers to the issues in regard to obvious negligence of the BOE to fullfill their sworn obligations to the taxpayers.

This isn't rocket science. The teachers are not to blame for organizing. The BOE's and administrations are directly at fault for incompetence and dereliction of duty for the bankruptcy of the school system in Canfield.

I'm betting that any issue pertaining to the bankruptcy of the Canfield School System could have been averted if the administration and BOE had been competent and applied any effort at all to stave off this crisis. This debacle falls squarely on the shoulders of the finance manager of the system. That this position has not been involuntarily separated from the system screams that the BOE is complicit and have been reduced to shills of the administration. All BOE members should be investigated for conflicts of interest issues by the township trustees immediately. If the trustees do not act, then they too are complicit and an investigation by the state of Ohio into conflicts of interest should be initiated.

Can anybody say "Enron"? There are millions of dollars of taxpayer monies that have been squandered away by incompetent Canfield School System administrators. This issue should be raised to a criminal investigation in order to acheive full disclosure as to why so much money was irresponsibly spent by the finance manager and the administration. Let's find out who misappropriated all of this money from the taxpayers of Canfield. Because of their inaction to act, it appears that the BOE is covering up something. Does anybody else feel that perhaps full disclosure is neccessary in order to ensure that theft is not involved?

It's time to get to the bottom of this issue. The BOE is obviously unwilling to act, perhaps a prosecutor can get some answers.

I know that this is a cropped version of a comment that I wrote in response to another article on the subject, but I am becoming convinced that something is rotten in Denmark (Canfield). I wonder what perks like lunches and cars and cell phones, and trips (vacations) have been paid for at taxpayer expense. This situation is starting to smell fishy. Does anybody else share my view that because the BOE obviously refuses to act, that there may be a need for a full investigation into the financials of the Canfield School Distrist administration's spending practices that were approved by the Financial Manager that so far has been insulated from any punitive action for their direct incompetence?

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108ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

dawgalong, how do you equate overspending by the BOE for Canfield equating to bankruptcy when the budgets are overwhelming controlled by the salaries and benefits of the teachers, to the tune of 80-85%? How is the financial manager at fault when he just writes those big checks to the insurance companies and PERS on behalf of the taxpayers?

I also would like a full disclosure of what exactly is going to cover these benefits also. How much is exactly going dollar amounts not percentage for insurance, what exactly the copay amounts are for doctors visits, prescriptions? How about total compensation for vacation and holidays? Don't Teachers take time off during the school years for personal days a with full pay? Sounds like some could abuse that time off for a little R&R during the school years too?

Yea dawgalong I would like a full investigation too, let's get it all out in the open. There is something rotten in Denmark (All public school systems).

Does anyone else share my view that because the Teachers Union obviously refuses to act and completely disclose all aspects of their contracts and agree to necessary adjustments. There is a need for a full investigation (Disclosure) with the financials where it is concerned to salaries and benefits for the employees and do what is right "FOR THE KIDS".

No new taxes and no to any old emergency levies, the emergency should have been addressed and the levy removed or should have been requested as a full time levy for the general fund. See the emergency sounds better than just asking for more money to hand out raises and such.

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109dawgalong(86 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

ytown,

The BOE is the governing body that oversees the administration, or at least that's the way it should be, right? They obviously have not performed their job competently.

The financial manager, or comptroller is responsible to oversee all spending to ensure that the business remains viable. I am not suggesting that the BOE overspent a dime, but rather they did not perform due dilegence in their responsibilities to monitor over spending by the administration through the comptroller's approval. Somebody has to make sure that, and I am choosing my words carefully, there isn't anything "going on" that would be construed as inappropriate in regard to spending habits. If the administration and comptroller are in collusion, then it would be the boards reaponsibility to review expenditures to ensure everything is "above board". This type of information obviously is secret. Otherwise when researching expenditures on the BOE webpage, it would actually have enough detail that taxpayers could discern that all expenditures are justified and would be considered normal for any business. Because the website gives vague financial data, I am as curious as you as to where the money actually goes. The BOE's silence is deafening.

Obviously, because the system has been bankrupted through incompetence, the administration and comptroller have spent more money than they have taken in. The board should have stopped them from doing so prior to the crisis. The comptroller should have had the foresight to alert the BOE so that they could have acted to stop the crisis. None of those events occurred or else the district would not be bankrupt.

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110rememberwhen(9 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

streetsmartt you have is so right.

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111ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

dawgalong I am not sure we are on the same page though we do have some of the same concerns.

The main problem contributing to the ills of our school systems, especially Canfield and Poland is they agreed to raises for the rank and files of each system over the last three years knowing very well that the cookie jar was going to be empty. These raises also included step raises along with bonuses for the administrations. They also made no changes to the insurance contributions all the while the insurance plans were costing more every year? Does that make any sense to you? Spending money you do not have, why not when you can just go to the taxpayer with a new or an emergency levy to cover the last check you wrote. At least that was the plan, until the levies were voted down. Oh my why would these nasty taxpayers deny the Kids? You know what these issues have nothing to do with the kids, this is about making the appropriate and necessary changes to compensation to fit the times you are in. Everything is not business as usual in case they have not noticed.

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112charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

ytown1

You have "hit the nail on the head." Are teachers whiners or are "NO" voters kid haters? Are boards of education out of touch with reality or are boards of education benevolent saints? Is a gym teacher making over 70K overpaid? Do teachers retire too early, work too little and and pat themselves on the back too much? Are BOEs mere puppets of superintendents? Does the teacher's union care "one whit" about the kids? Will the teachers abandon classrooms like they did in Milwaukee? How many more "poor us" letters to the editor will local educators submit before November? Yes, its a mess. Stay tuned for more enlightening posts as these issues get debated the next few months.

One thing I do know: Teachers are running scared because of failed levies and SB5. Government Watch has caught them "with the pants down." It remains to be seen if they'll "come to the table," rescind their raises and contribute more to their benefits to refurbish their image.

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113SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

To all those "Whiners" about teachers bargaining pay raises, note this fact. The only way any union working for school districts in Ohio can get pay raises, the school treasurer must show in a five year forecast that money will be available for pay raises. Otherwise, it is illegal for any agreement to have pay raises at all in the new contract. Thus, if you need to be angry with anyone, its the BOE for agreeing to any raises at all, not the teachers. In the private sector, If the boss agreed to pay you more, you would take it for sure as well!!!!

That law I refer to was "guess what", enacted by the last Governor everyone wants to blame for the budget short fall, not the republicans that spent us here for thew past 20 years,

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114charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

SOC

It's not "who to blame" so much as "how do we fix it?" The teachers union needs to make concessions, pure and simple. If the BOE made a mistake, fine. Tell the teachers union you "goofed up" and request a revisit of the contract. After all, the teachers' chief concern is "the kids," isn't it? HA! HA! HA!

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115charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

rocky14

Sure, shoot the messenger. Aren't you tired of the Canfield levy signs, "Vote Yes for Excellence?" What kind of excellence? Excellent salaries, raises, step raises, perks and bennies for teachers? Excellent bonuses to Mr. Zambrini? Excellent excuses for rational decision making by the BOE in the midst of a recession? Something is very wrong with the scheme of school funding decisions being made by the BOE/Superintendent/Teacher's Union. I lump them all together because they are one close-knit happy family. The school levy signs should say, "Vote Yes till their pockets are full and yours are empty."

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116paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

The writer of this letter to the editor condemns the Vindicator for its attitude towards teachers. It seems to me that the paper publicizes every positive thing it can about teachers as well as publish letters from teachers, educations majors, former students, etc. In fact, the Vindicator was given a community service award recently by the Austintown BOE for positive things the paper has done for that school district.

I maintain that the Vindicator does not play favorites. Poland and Canfield school districts have created their own messes - the Vindicator, in what is good public service, has just brought these messes to light.

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117SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

If the state legislature would have fixed school funding as court ordered, neither district would be in the "mess its in", plain and simple. Strickland tried to fix it. However, the legislature refused and now the same party controls the governors mansion....oooops sorry, no one is living in it at the time. We the taxpapers instead of paying our teachers more spent $25 million dollars to "remodel" Kasich house. This was reported once in the Lebanon ohio newspaper. The reporter was since fired.....for reporting the truth

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118TB(1167 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"The main problem contributing to the ills of our school systems,"
sounds to me like you made an argument that spiraling health care costs are the main problem, yet no one demands investigation or reform of this. In fact, when reform was suggested, people on the right started crying

soc makes excellent, well informed points.

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119ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

So TB you and SOC are of the same cloth then, SPEND SPEND and don't worry about how you are going to pay for it until it is too late?

The kind of health care reform we are looking at is that the teachers and other public workers need to carry more of that load, as you can see the salaries they make can sure cover it.

Yes we need Health care Insurance reform, but for now, the pittance that these unions contribute towards these costs only enriches them to be that much above the rest of the people that pay their salaries.

I would also ask you if you have really read any of SOC's comments, when it comes to providing solutions, he has none, that is all I can say.

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120paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

The Silence of Current Poland & Canfield Teachers is Deffening."

The writer of this letter to the editor has stirred up a hornets nest. At over 82K, she was obviously at the high end of the compensation scale. She felt it "safe" to write such a letter because she just retired last year and no longer "has any skin in the game." Nothing that happens will change her retirement. A teacher from a rural school district joined this blog, but he too "has no skin in the game" of Poland and Canfield salary adjustments. Some on this thread are probably teachers, but are afraid to identify themselves as such. Why? I think they are embarrassed to have their identities known - for fear of the level of scrutiny that will go into their personal salary/benefits info. Why? They should beat their chests with pride at what they make.

On another note...

Today I heard that Chinese students are the best in the world - with the US way down on the list. Everyone knows schools in this country used to do a better job than they do now. I think that the teacher's union has ruined the education system.

(1) It has turned teachers into wimps - by not making them stand up on the own merits,
(2) It has turned BOEs into co-conspiritors in the Ponzi scheme of haywire spending on teacher salaries/perks and bennies,
(3) It has "dumbed-down" the standards used to evaluate schools so the even schools that get excellent ratings aren't that swift, &
(4) It has made mediocrity the only standard that teachers have to shoot for.

Something has to change.

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121SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Ytown1,
I have given solutions. First, the state legislature refused to follow a State Supreme Court order. This came at the direction of then Governor Taft. Strictland tried to get the republican legislature to follow that order. Funding schools on property taxes is unconstitutional. However, Republicans are against public education period. If they wanted the middle class poor to get one they would fund it.
Here is the best solution....I will type slow so you can follow.....You may think this is a tax increase, it is not. The state changes everyone, even those on welfare 1% income tax. Each district then does the same. Your property taxes goes down to almost nothing. Most of your property tax goes to school. Say you make $50,000 dollars, your tax totals $1,000. Your property taxes are $3000 of which 2000 goes to schools. Ytown1 Get a calculator to help, 2000 - 1000 = 1000 dollar tax savings.

As for Pualparks, when you compare the chinese to the US education, you must not know if by sixth or seventh grade,(if not sooner) in chinese, if you don't make the grade as a student, you are out. We have to take everyone and give then until the quit or graduate an education. That make a huge difference. It would be like compare a lincoln towne car to a ford pinto. you just can't do it unless you want to miss inform the public about the facts which happens far to often

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122ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Only one flaw SOC, do you really think for one minute if you allow them to asses an income tax to fund the schools that they would stay at 1%.

I am going to let you in on something, if a school income tax was allowed, what do you think is going to happen when the PERS goes belly up, when raises are demanded by the unions, and let's say SB5 is defeated and the insurance costs are out of this world and the unions refuse to pickup any of the costs, I ill tel you, The % amount would be raised to make up the short fall and the teachers would be laughing all the way to their retirement homes in Florida is what.

So SOC your plan is so full of holes you may as well call it the Swiss cheese plan. So you really have not proposed a real plan at all.

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123SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Ytown1,
School districts would have more money than they would ever need. Republicans, especially Kasich to realize it for his failing charter school cause. Teachers and every other public worker have will will continue to give back in all areas. The media choices not to report it on the front page.

Until you wake up and see the facts and not believe the propaganda, this country is in trouble. To quote a movie line, "You can't handle the truth". You are believing lies! Ytown1 you plan will cost you so much, hope you have a printer that prints money.
!

WHy? you don't want to pay for anything. Three things make a community strong, Good police, fire , and schools. They cost money. For my child's sake, I will pay anything for his best interest, too bad you seem you won't.

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124charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

SOC

"For my child's sake, I will pay anything for his best interest..."

There are those who will always support school levies, those who won't. The key is the remaining 20% who aren't committed. Obviously, you would always support school levies. I used to be that way, too. But things have changed. About 50% of the school levies in Ohio the last 5 years (out of about 2000 levies) have failed. "There is wisdom in the ballot box." All those people in Ohio voting against school levies aren't: stupid, insensitive, or selfish. There are caring people in the group of "NO" voters. Debating the funding scheme is interesting, but not immediately relevant. I for one support the current way things are done (even though declared unconstitutional) because I think local BOEs ought to have to answer to local voters. If not for that, what check would there be on spiraling costs, raises, bonuses, etc. Without local control or without a local "NO" the BOEs have no incentive to economize. We could argue all day long about "who does or does not care about the kids," but in the final analysis, local oversight by the ballot box is the best way I know of to give the taxpayers a seat at the bargaining table.

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125ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Thank you Charm, I am also one of those 20% who is also for the current system, though with limits, to just ignore that things have changed financially would doom any other busines, people like SOC will never consider an adjustment to the current amount of money being spent to provide community services.

With the vast majority being (85%) spent on salaries and benefits, with the rest just barely maintaining the infrastructure we have, meaning we have no ability to upgrade without having to vote in a bond to build a new school, is why it is almost impossible to continue down the road we are traveling. The unions also refuse to recognize that now is not the time for raises and to continue paying for the vast majority of health care cost, I believe the current amount for health care contributions in Boardman is capped at $30 a month for single and $79 a month for family. I repeat that is for a month not per week. Most private sector workers are paying at least this amount per week if not more. I also hate to tell you that where this amount is usually for a health care plan that no one in the private sector could wish for. Including the co pays are very low if non existent, including dental and eye which most lost years ago. These plans do not come cheap and to have the monthly costs to the employees capped at $30/$79 per month does not even come close to reducing the cost of operations.

SOC I also feel good Police, Fire and Public Schools are what make up a great community, but there has to be restraint to what this costs the taxpayer, your vision is that there is no limits as to what is being spent now and what it is going to cost in the future. I also have news for you, there is a declining population along with the amount of students enrolled has also declined. But you just want to increase the amount of money being spent? Sounds like more of the Voo Doo economics going on here in Boardman.

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126SRSTinAtown(15 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

After reading all these posts, I think people need to go to the OPI website and see what teachers need to be certified to teach in OHIO. Teachers pay for Praxis tests, they pay for classes to stay current on certification and last but not least the summers are not time off for the majority of teachers. Most of them are in school, working hard to better themselves and prepare for the next school year.

For all you teachers, keep up the good work, I know I appreciate you!

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127SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

SRSTINaTOWN,
THANK YOU FOR BEING THE FEW VOICES OF REASON AROUND THIS TOWN.

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128VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Maybe once again I shall mention to folks out there complaining and whining...Get hooked up with Carmella and take a one day visit to the classrooms, as she has invited in the above journal---(now summer, got to wait until fall )retired or not, she could present a guided tour and once again..."teach you" a lesson regarding daily routine for teachers and students. I'll bet one will re-evaluate the perks and bennies then...

As for what "PP" comment above believes..."She felt it "safe" to write such a letter because she just retired last year and no longer "has any skin in the game."

....well
"BULL--ONY"!!!! (to "PP")

Throughout Carmella's whole family is 125 years of education experience. Perhaps, stop with the plain ignorance.
Go Visit Carmella and let her know she is not worth 80K. But take the tour , first!

Next, why is it that one can see 80k salary for a Principal and makes the assumption that oh my gosh... ALL teachers are also 80k? PLEASE ... The Average is 55K! and certainly not getting rich! (but it's tax $$) Boo-hoo. Also, a Phys. Ed instructor is not only Phys. Ed., HE/SHE also teaches Health, Biology, Science, History, Math, and/or Coach. during other periods.

**********************************************************************************
*** Frankly....Just Book a Tour to the classrooms before you vote!
Pick your School.

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129charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

VP,

Most people are working too hard supporting the overly-burdensome teacher salaries, perks and bennies to "play school" for a day. We all went to school. We've all seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I said in my first post that Carmella may be worth every penny she made. It's some who are mediocre, overpaid nincompoops hiding behind her skirts that bother us.

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130VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

I am not talking about "PLAYING" This is obviously a serious situation and matter. One needs to witness education and its profession first-hand and therefore assessments, evaluations, and your own individual eye to measure for a concrete conclusion. This is FEASIBLE! Very Feasible. That's an excuse when someone says "they don't have time"

Before pointing fingers, exagerating, assuming, griping, ---for your own satifaction ...go to the source Directly that pi$$e$ one off! ie The Classrooms. We should all do this before we vote, gripe and pay these taxes, then.

I do agree, some people are not the very best or top-notch in ALL professions, just because degree-holding cum laude doesn't mean he/she is blue ribbon of excellence!

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131HSG(109 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

All of you imbeciles complaining about how good teachers have it should start your own unions and demand some changes. Or get a teaching job. Quit taking all the crap spoon fed to you by the corporate types. They can afford to do better by their employees, but that would mean less for the big wheels at the top. Can't have that, can we?

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132AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

“I will make some terrible mistakes, ok?”—Governor-elect John Kasich

That’s the most honest thing he’s told us since the election

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133paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

VP

If all the voters wanted to "witness" education, the schools would have to shut down.

HSG

It gets so tiring hearing that "NO" voters aren't thinking for themselves and that they should make things better in the private sector. Even Obama hasn't been able to improve things in the private sector. Poland and Canfield teachers are finally having the light shine on their world and they are going to have to convince voters that they are worth the 10% in extra raises of the last 3 years.

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134charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"Familiarity breeds contempt."

Teachers are an ungrateful bunch. They take what would be considered in the private sector as "golden compensation packages" and complain and moan about how difficult their jobs are, how we just don't understand, and how much they "care about the kids."

There is a pervasive lack of appreciation amongst educators for being in the positions they are in. It is a privilege and an honor to teach - but they are so busy groaning that they oftentimes ignore the positives.

Humility & lack of arrogance would go a long way toward healing their damaged reputations.

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135cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

paulparks....You claim "Even Obama hasn't been able to improve things in the private sector."

Actually there have been 1.1 million jobs created since Jan. 2011. This after bush and the republicans left the economy in shambles and we were losing over 100,000 jobs a month.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_16...

You're Welcome!

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136cambridge(2974 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

jay1981.....The link below is from a series by the New York Times about the financial meltdown. Enjoy.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/bu...

Your statement that the bush tax cuts improved the economy was hilarious so thanks for that. It's kind of funny how they took ten years before it worked. Or maybe it's the Obama administration that is turning things around. What do you think? You know what? Never mind I already know what you're going to say.

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137juicylucy(13 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

Nobody except teachers know what goes on in Youngstown schools. We can't even make up our stories. We are afraid for our jobs if we speak out but within our ranks there is outrage and apathy. We are professionals and take our jobs seriously but you will never hear the truth about what really goes on. The real truth is hushed and never reported. The haters can opt to stay home and educate their own children since they feel teachers are the devil or move to a state where teacher salaries are not tied to property taxes. Teachers pay property taxes like everyone else. We are also over taxed. Put the blame on your legislators who will not change the law that ties salaries to property taxes. It is unconstitutional to do this and it has been tied up in the courts for years because of our lawmakers NOT TEACHERS! We are just as p-ssed off as everyone else about this. Bill Maher is right--People are STUPID.

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138streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

juicylucy

"Teachers pay property taxes like everyone else... People are STUPID"

Teachers rant and rave about being taxpayers but a very small % of their pay comes from teachers' taxes. In fact, the tax code just loves teachers - allowing them to opt out of participating in social security (unlike the rest of us). When people criticize teachers - the critics are called "stupid" and told they don't understand. Blame is laid on the funding scheme - I think because teachers would prefer if there was zero oversight on their ever escalating salaries and lavish benefits. How many times need it be said that complaining won't win back voters?

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139HSG(109 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

People aren't stupid, just ignorant . They're also too lazy to research the real reason for our current mess. It's much easier to be told how to think by the morons on Fox or the obnoxious ill-informed vocal few on this blog. No, people aren't stupid, just really, really disappointing.

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140paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

"People who can -- do. People who can't -- teach."

H.L. Mencken

Today, it's not society that undervalues teachers, it's teachers themselves. Teachers have become their own worst enemy. The union has let them down by "cave man" thinking about contract negotiations and lack of a meaningful response when school levies fail.

Since BOEs just want to "get along" with the teacher's union, the unions in Poland and Canfield forced unreasonable raises the last 3 years. This caused levies to fail in 2 of the best school districts in town. The teacher's unions in both school districts have let the reputations of teachers go down the toilet - thus taking thinking back several decades ago to what Mencken thought about teachers.

The teachers should wise up and change union leadership before the unions create further devastation to these two fine school districts.

I've given up on the BOEs. They'll never change and get the backbone they need to counter the overpowering unions.

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141charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 2 months ago

PP

Agree that teachers have become their own worst enemies. You motivate people to your way of thinking 1 of 2 ways: "the carrot or the stick." Teachers, BOEs and superintendents are great promoters of the "stick." "Stick it" to the parents and kids when levies fail.

I think it's time to try the "carrot" approach. Give concessions, be cooperative, really think "about the kids." Then you will start getting levies passed.

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142streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

The comments on this thread are certainly enlightening. Educators (including the writer of this letter) have tried in vain to stem the rising tide of criticism against teachers - but to no avail. The reputation of teachers is at an historic low point. Is it warranted? I think it is. Teachers whine about not being appreciated when it seems to me that society has given them a big "pass" on oversight. Teachers for the most part have no "bosses" once they gain tenure and thus have no one to answer to. If I were a teacher, I would want it that way too! Who likes to have someone "looking over their shoulder?"

But the time is ripe for change and the tide is turning. Regardless of what happens to SB5, teachers are going to have to face the reality of stricter standards of conduct and meaningful administration of their performance.

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143chkyle68(4 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I see a lot of comments comparing the Private Sector to the Public Sector. In the private sector (in which I work), we only hire people who we feel are capable of doing the job they are hired for. If, in fact, they are unable or unwilling, we let them go. We give them the opportunity to succeed, we are not responsible if they decide not to use it.

So why is it teachers are expected to be held accountable for the success of disrespectful, poorly prepared (at home), unambitous students, whose parents do not encourage or monitor their progress? It would be great if all kids could be "reached" and be a straight "A" student, but that is not reality. Most teachers I know want to be that person to reach every student and make a difference. But as the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Would you "blame the teacher" crowd like to manage a staff of people who did not care and/or did not work hard, and then be held accountable for their performance? Oh, and let me add, you are not allowed to criticize, discipline, or do anything else that might hurt their feelings lest they go running to the boss to try and get you fired.

If I did not do well in school, my parents did not blame the teacher, or the BOE, or the Governor. They made it clear I needed to improve my performance, and helped if necessary.

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144paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

chkyle68,

Kids are kids. Some are great students. Some - not so great. But I disagree that teachers are managers of these kids - like they were employees! They are supposed to nurture and develop the potentials these kids bring to the classroom - and that has to be with a reasonable standard of job performance measure. The current system has nearly zero oversight for tenured teachers and that has to change. Nobody is talking about blaming anybody! We all just want a better system - because the current system is failing us.

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145AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

PP,
If the system is not broke, don't fix it.

If you go to most schools, I believe you will find most teachers as good hearted, hard working, dedicated educators. Most teachers do not get into teaching for the money. They want to help our children become better people.

Yesterday listening to talk radio, there was a 22 year old just completed college and said he has a job paying $60,000 a year. Most people would say congrats to him. But here in the Valley people complain when 25 year experienced teacher with masters Degree make a little more then that.

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146paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC

(1) The fact is: "teachers take much of their compensation in various ways that don't translate directly into salary."...everyone knows what those ways are by now.

(2) A master's degree in education is a crock - just another 3 more quarters of "cut & paste."

(3) A first grade teacher isn't worth over twice as much with 30 years of experience. In fact, they might be worth a lot less.

(4) The system is "broke," so we must fix it!...salaries run amuck, no meaningful oversight or incentives to improve, unsustainable perks and bennies...

(5) The teacher's union has ruined education in this country. I only hope we can recover what we've lost in comparison to other countries.

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147VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Someone needs to get "PP" to a campus...Quick

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148charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Greed...Selfishness...Arrogance

What can you say about the teacher's union? Take, take, take... until the "Golden Goose" ruptures. Bully boards of education into submission... Beg for acclaim from the public... Use students as hostages... Make mediocrity a virtue... Condemn innovation.

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149jupiter(116 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I seriously am beginning to hope that all of you posters get to live in the world that you seem so hellbent on creating. Only in the Mahoning Valley can "public employee bashing" be turned into a sport. "Had a bad day? Hate your life? Blame a teacher!"
Kasich and others have created such a Waterloo for the republican party that they have set things back by about 20 years. I used to consider myself conservative. After this sad, sad attempt at political punishment the republican party is gonna have to do an awful lot to ever get my vote on anything.
You people will eventually get what you deserve. Its going to be funny to watch when Kasich comes for your standard of living next. Don't cry too much.
Carmella-"THANK YOU." You were my kindergarten teacher in the early eighties. The education teachers like yourself provided me allowed me to create my own success...unlike these sad, sad individuals on here who seem to lack even basic skills. The world always will need ditch diggers, guys. Rejoice in that fact!!

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150AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,

Are you complaining that a college Grad teaching your child makes too much money?
The other day listening to talk radio a very recent College Grad just got a job making $60,000. But you complain when a 15 year experienced teacher makes the same $60,000.

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151ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC how many times are you going to repeat yourself? Are you fedupwithcrap reincarnated? (There I go again slandering Charlie again, sorry Chuck) I would also assume your example is far from the norm, being the exception as to what happens everyday to graduates. You also fail to educate us on what profession this College Grad is employed in.

But the least amount of facts available, just makes your story more believable, NOT.

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152jupiter(116 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Paulparks...you are EXACTLY correct-IF YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT CEO/EXECUTIVE PAY...especially corporations that are the beneficiaries of blatant "corporate welfare." PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE, boys (and girls).
When China kicks this country back to the early 20th century its going to be because of narrow minded, ineffectual, little people like you who made the word 'teacher' into a pejorative!!

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153VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC:

I believe you need to keep educating and repeating yourself with good debate and comments...then...perhaps someday--it will "SINK IN" for PP, Y-town1, and Charms. They simply do not comprehend. Some folks are slow learners mentally and lack developmental skills. Re-conditioned thought processes in a variety of ways are favorable in this instance to maintain them to focus clearly. Be patient ===they will in time realize.

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154jupiter(116 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I really have to laugh at all this 'public vs. private' debate. What is the private sector equivalent to a teacher? What about a police officer or fire fighter? Cops and fireman are EXPECTED to die in some situations...and its considered a part of their job. What private sector occupation involves taking an oath to lay down one's life for another? Its amazing-ten years ago you people cried like emotionally retarded children over cops and firemen. Fast forward to today and you blame them for the antics of YOUR bosses in the private sector? Ummmm, cause and effect people...???

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155questions(4 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

As someone who has taught in the south, I can assure you the issues you bring up are not because of unions. I have taught in a "right to work" state where I didn't have a union rep or union dues. I didn't have anyone who was a voice for me. Even without the unions we are experiencing the same problems. We are just as broke (money wise) as Ohio. Programs are being cut, funds for technology in the classrooms are being eliminated and school districts are not replacing retirees. So here is some info for you. However you use it, or twist it, is up to you.

I pay 10% of my salary into my retirement, my district pays 6% and I will get social security and medicaid/medicare when I retire. Ohio teachers do not get social security or medicare (even though they may have paid into them). So either way you slice it a teacher's retirement is funded by tax payers. Just like those who are on SSI and Medicare, your benefits are being funded by current tax payers. And yes, I know you are going to make the argument that you have paid into this for 40+ years and you deserve them, but if you look at the history of these programs you will see that your money has long been spent and you are now reliant on current tax payers. Furthermore many people who are on these programs receive more in benefits than what they have contributed.

Our school's income isn't solely property tax. We pay property taxes on our houses AND on our cars, every year. Yes, that is correct. Every year I pay a tax on my car simply for owning it in addition to the tags and title fees. We also rely on sales tax. We are a county school system so the taxes are collected from the whole county to support the schools AND the county commissioners can vote to raise your property taxes for schools WITHOUT a vote from the people. So no levies or bonds, just an increase in taxes if it is needed.

So enjoy the info. The grass isn't always greener!

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156VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

questions:

Interesting...food for thought!

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157charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

jupiter,

There is no private sector equivalent to a teacher. That's because teachers have the nicest jobs in the public sector.

Your welcome!

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158charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

A letter from a teacher that you will never see...

Dear Taxpayer,

Thank you for making my life so nice! I really appreciate the fact that you entrust me with your children - and give me the opportunity to be a part of their success. I enjoy my job so much! I just love the great pay and the benefits are out of sight wonderful!

Please know that I appreciate all the tax levies you've supported in the past with your hard-earned dollars! Thank you for giving me a privileged position in society and the best job security available in the job market today!

Please forgive any of my brethren who are lackadaisical, greedy, lazy, or just not committed to our wonderful profession. Thank you for my summers off!

Vote whatever way you want on SB5, but know that whatever the result is, I will pledge myself to being more sensitive to the issues facing the private sector: like the recession, diminishing benefit packages and unemployment.

Forgive the fact that we just don't thank you often enough! You see, many of us take our nice jobs for granted!

But not me! I appreciate you, Taxpayer! If is wasn't for your sacrifice I could not do my job!

Sincerely Yours,

Betty Teacher

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159SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,
Yes there is a private sector equivalent to a teacher. Its called a private tutor. A private tutor may tutor three children per hour at $30 per child (90 dollars an hour) and say tutor 15 childs a day for five days for a total of $2250 per week. So over nine months, that would add up to $85500 per year. Much higher than my 45000 a year teaching job I maxed out at five years ago. I think I have to make a change now for sure.
In review here. I service 180 kids a day for five days a week , eight hours a day and make 45000. Yet a tutor services 15 kids a day, five days a week for five hours and makes 85500. But I'm lazy, " lackadaisical, and greedy" !
Its my fault a student won't bring a book, paper and something to write with to class, but will bring their iphone, ipod, and playstation to class instead. You call home and if you can get someone, they tell you deal with it, he/she is you problem for eight hours because grandma can't handle them......oh by the way you find out dad ran off and mom is in jail doing 10 to 15 for armed robbery or a drug conviction. But I'm greedy, and lazy.

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160charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

P.S. ...to the letter above by Betty Teacher

One more thing, taxpayer... Please don't listen to any of my fellow teachers who whine, complain, and "cry-baby" their way through life. They know a lot of their remuneration isn't in direct salary. They just won't admit it or be grateful for it.

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161VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

.

SAVEOURCOUNTRY:

Well stated and puts things into perspective.

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162VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Well, the time has come for someone to stand up for the legions of wonderful educators in this area. Lately this profession had been maligned, cursed and accused of sending this country into its economic woes. The paper makes accusations that make my head spin. And it accuses anyone who dares to question it as not being intelligent enough to ask appropriate questions.

Yes, I am an educator and have been for 35 years. I am proud to say that my family has combined experience in education of over 127 years. We have worked in grades K through 12 and in administration. Most of us came into this profession when business was booming and companies were providing their employees with generous annual increases, free medical insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, employer donations to a pension fund and matched contributions to 401ks. Most of them received two to six weeks vacation or more and 11 paid holidays. Which means that they worked on average 15 days more than teachers did — and they didn’t have to go to school nights or summers to keep their jobs. I know that well because my husband was one of these people for many years.

At that time, teachers were working for far less than most other professions. There was minimum insurance and we have always paid into our pension fund. We had summers off, but most had to work other jobs to be able to provide for their families.

The profession has finally reached the point that is comparable to livelihoods of other professions. Unfortunately, this has come at a time when businessmen have made a mess of the economy. We are not responsible for this, but we are being attacked constantly. I invite any of you to spend an entire day with 24 kindergartners or 4th graders or be responsible for 150 high school English students and then decide if we are in fact not paid enough for what we do.

This nation has been served well by the public school system and its teachers for generations. Who do you think educated the people who are throwing darts at us now?

Carmella Smallhoover, Poland

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163SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Carmella,
I stand proud with you!

An early post wrote that teachers can opt out of social security. NOT TRUE. in 1986, Ronald Reagan felt it was wrong for public employees to "double dip" in retirement. Thus the republican legislature of Ohio voted to not allow public employees to collect social security upon retirement. That is why we pay 10% into our own retirement system, (soon to be at least 12% or more).

Its sad our un-informed the public really is on the facts. Its like they are sheep led around by those who truly have a negative agenda against the working man in this country.

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164charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost "outed" as Carmella!

Glad you're reading these posts, Carmela! Now that I know we have your attention, please answer these questions:

(1) Why didn't you admit in your letter that you worked for the Poland School District?

(2) Why did you take 10% in salary increases the last 3 years of your employment - was it ti "jack-up" your final year salary to OVER $82,000 to boost your retirement?

(3) Did you talk with any school board members, the superintendent, or teachers before you submitted your letter?

(4) Did you author the letter? Was it "OKd" by others? Did the head of the teacher's union see it before you sent it?

(5) Why were you "selected" to write the letter? Is it because you are retired and now have "no skin in the game?"

(6) Why in all your beautiful discourse have you not thanked the taxpayers for making your life so nice?

(7) Since you have retired (and are in your 50's) are you working someplace else now and "double dipping" while the rest of us in our 50's have to keep working for only one source of income?

(8) Can't you think of anything NEW to say except to "cut & paste" your first letter - or is that what the BOE, teacher's union and the superintendent want you to do?

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165Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms --

So you want to attack the writer of this letter. I have had kids in her school for years. So these are the facts.

Carmella retired with 35 years of excellent service to the Poland School District. She worked for most of those years as both a part-time teacher and part-time principal meaning she received for most of her career 1/2 salary for teaching and 1/2 salary for administration. Oh and most of those years was as a kindergarten teacher. And if you read the paper at all you would KNOW that this wonderful woman that you are assuming is in her fifties is really 75 years old. So there you go you idiot. Also she doesn't have to get anyone’s ok to write a letter in defense of anyone. IF you think this wonderful retired teacher/administrator has the time to read and respond to these stupid posts then you really need your head examined. She has earned her retirement and has worked with the wonderful teachers of Poland. As a resident, and I have said this before, her service to our school system has been exemplary. She deserves the pay she received and I for one am proud that she served the Poland community as long as she did.

Charms you need to get a life and get off this site and do something constructive with your time instead of picking on individuals who, under the first amendment have the right to speak their minds.

How about the taxpayers thanking Carmella for working two jobs and saving them money for all those years. You really should KNOW what you are TALKING about before you open your keyboard up.

GROW UP CHARMS

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166charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Poster1,

If calling me an "idiot" gives you a "cheap thrill," go ahead. I didn't write Carmella's "bleeding heart" letter, she did. I don't care if she's 75 or 175, she juiced up her salary by 10% the last 3 years to boost her retirement. Facts are facts. If she doesn't want criticism she shouldn't have "outed" herself or written the "bleeding heart" letter in the first place. I too,like you, have First Amendment rights.

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167Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms

I guess when presented with the facts you are unable to debate this issue with any intelligence. .

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168charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Poster1

Sure, "shoot the messenger." Now, I'm not intelligent, huh?... just because I don't agree with you?

(1) Carmella may be worth 82K a year but we'll never no because merit pay doesn't exist in the Poland School System,

(2) Carmella wrote the letter to "spank" the Vindicator for its reporting of teacher salaries,

(3) Poland schools may be loved by you but a majority of the voters have given the system the "thumbs-down,"

(4) I'm not the only one critical on this blog - how intelligent is anyone who disagrees with Carmella or you?

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169Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,

As you have indicated no one knows why someone writes something. Your attacks on the writer are uncalled for -- she was an administrator and they are not under a union contract so you see your intelligence again is in question -- she did work on MERIT PAY!!!!!!!
Your anger says it all -- you really DON'T know the FACTS.
Also I will apologize for calling you an idiot - I was wrong for taking it down to that level - you are just ignorant of the facts.

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170devildog(94 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

No Charms....YOU ARE WRONG....
(1) her merit=her school rating was excellent!
(2) her "spanking" the vindicator for reporting salaries= she was defending the J O B teachers do!
(3) voters did not give Poland schools a 'thumbs down', they gave more taxes a thumbs down, most live in Poland because of the awesome schools, funding schools needs to be examined by the state!

Get YOUR comprehension in check!!!

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171streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Pullease!!!

Everyone knows that administrators' salaries are piggybacked on top of the union raises & there are a lot of mad people in Poland upset with the schools.

If people in Poland were happy, why did they vote a resounding "NO!"

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172Poster1(9 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Streetsmart

The administrators' salaries are NOT part of the union contract. There is a totally different scale for administrators in most systems. Their salaries are based on MERIT - just like the PRIVATE sector.

I hope that you live in Poland Streetsmart because you would know that NOT everyone is upset with the schools system. Check the polling and see that the ones that voted this levy down and they are mainly living in the Mc Mansions.

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173paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Poster1

Enough already from the president of "The Carmella Fan Club!" Carmella's letter will be followed by other Poland and Canfield letters geared toward convincing the electorate in those communities to support November school levies. It remains to be seen how persuasive the "VOTE YES" proponents are in their propaganda with Poland and Canfield "ripping off" the taxpayers with 10% raises the past 3 years during a recession.

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174patrickhm(17 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Unlike other professions in either the public or private sector, teachers don't have a clock to punch in and out of at the beginning and end of each day; for us, our work consumes us and we consume it. Much of that, I may add, is of our own time - off the taxpayers' "clock." ALOHA

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175devildog(94 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Hey paulparks.....how about ENOUGH already from YOU!!!! You are thee most negative, miserable person posting on this site. You clearly are a very unhappy and frustrated individual that obviously had some bad experiences in school with teachers. But rest assured that if you have children in school, a genuiene caring teacher is nuturting them and preparing them for life while daddy blast their very existence on a web site.

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176charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

devildog,

Quit picking on paulparks. He's made valid points here... And how can you guarantee that "a caring teacher" is always available to nurture a child? I've seen some way less than stellar teachers in my day - both as a student and as a parent - and there was nothing that could be done about them!

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177AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

There are less then stellar people working all over the place. We can't get rid of them either. There are less then stellar people posting on this board, and we cannot get rid of them either.

Quit whining about public taxpayers, and educaters(who pay taxes also).

POST 171 answers
1, it doesnt matter where she works.
2, she was entitled to the raises probably.
3 &4, she can think on her own, did you check with anybody before your posts?
5. were you selected to make your post.
6 thank you for paying taxes just like she does and ALL other working people
7. you can get a second income also, just apply yourself.
8 what makes you so sure VP is the author, like you said, cut and paste,

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178streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC

The problem with less than stellar teachers is - this - we can't get rid of them! You can't compare incompetence in the private sector with "the sweet deal" teachers have - with their brow-beating gorilla union protecting them!

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179devildog(94 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Hey Charms.....scroll back a few comments, I believe it was paulparks picking on Poster 1.....so it stands to reason that those of you bashing educators have difficulty reading!!!!

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180SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Streetsmartt,
As a teacher, I have seen very good teachers be 'Fired" (AKA contracts not renewed) far too many times. Why? Because they have a sick spouse costing the district too much money in healthcare, an adminstrator has a relative they want to hire (or a good friend), and the list goes on. Tenure stops that. Today it is easy to fire tenured teachers. If they have two poor evaluations in a row, by the third without improvement they will be fired. Non-tenured teachers can be fired without any reason in the state of Ohio.
SB5 puts us further back into a good old boys club that rewards corruption that we all fear in government, and especially with our children's education in hand.

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181charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

With all due respect to you because you are a teacher, it is hard for me to believe that "it is easy to fire a tenured teacher." Whatever the evaluation process is, teachers must be able to "game" the system - so that they can "get by" and still keep their jobs.

I've have witnessed this myself. Really. Also, although I assume you are a good teacher, isn't it true that there are mediocre teachers that you've seen who keep their jobs?

My problem is that with the tenure system, there is no real way to encourage improvement. And today we need the very best from the very best teachers to compete with the rest of the world.

Education to me is a very dynamic process - calling for a high dedication level, continuously getting better coupled with meaningful ways to evaluate - so that we don't only settle for fair teachers, we shoot for good to excellent teachers.

Who has the less regard for human nature: those who claim the system now encourages "a conspiracy" between BOEs and teacher unions or those who claim SB5 will make BOEs arbitrary and unfair to teachers?

I think the evidence (at least in Poland and Canfield) suggests that teachers are now "in bed" with the unions. ***10% raises in both school districts the last 3 years during a recession.*** It seems as if now, the BOE decides how much they want to spend (with healthy increases to employees), the BOE projects that "made-up" number as a budget, then they ask for a school levy to cover their inflated costs. Homeowners have no say in the process - because once the BOE is elected - they operate essentially "in secret." Their thinking probably is this: "what does the property owner know?" It's hard to translate complex spending formulas into what the average person can judge is a "fair" levy amount.

That's the major flaw in the current funding system: BOEs spend what they want, property owners tell them whether or not they did a good job & then the "fake fixes" come in to lower "costs" or increase "fees" if a levy fails.

This is a poor system of oversight for the taxpayers. The best we can do is oust a bad BOE member after mistakes have been made. WE essentially can't touch tenured teachers & we have no way of knowing the quality of the product until it's way too late.

The current system isn't working. I think SB5 will give the ultimate ones in charge, "the taxpayers," a better chance at the kind of dynamic system I described above. Today's educational demands warrant this change - and I think that it will operate in a fairer way to everybody - than the current system.

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182SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Pay increases is how you do what it is you are arguing for CHARMS. It is the market system at work and you just don't see it. The governors own words. You have to pay well to attract and keep the best". He just doesn't believe it because the teachers unions didn't support his campaign. Why?
Because he is for Profit education. We see how well that is working out in Ohio. Near 300 charter schools and all but one are worse off the youngstown city.
SB5 will not give those in charge as you put it. It will open the door up for more charter schools and ten times less accountability because charter schools aren't accountable to anyone.....your tax dollars at work.
The only thing your right on, take politics out of education. Doctors police themselves. So should teachers, not Politicians in Columbus or Washington!

Bye the way. Public schools must show nearly a zero balance each year unless the forecast a deficit. That means the amount of money in must be the amount of money out. Charter schools are different. Those who run it are allowed to make millions while kids don't learn. But you are OK with that!

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183charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

You obviously are against SB5 and I am for it - so to a certain extent we are arguing past each other - not answering points. But as far as you are talking about charter schools and their future - it isn't a big issue for me. I think they will be around, but the vast majority of kids will be educated in public schools. I know it's parochial thinking, but my concern is in the schools in my school district and the property taxes that support them. As teachers campaign against SB5, whether the "charter school argument" will sell across Ohio remains to be seen. I think most people relate to school issues as they affect them in their own communities. They don't see charter schools siphoning off their tax dollars as an issue that matters. I think you have to paint charter schools as one of your "villains" in your campaign, but I don't feel their influence or cost directly. See? And most people don't think they are all bad or wasteful.

Pay increases to handle attracting good teachers only deals with the positive side to the issue of compensation. There has to be a way to punish bad teachers compensation-wise too.

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184SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,
You need to run for school board with several like minded friends. Then you can pressure the adminstration to weed out the bad teachers.

Can you help my wife out. She has some sub-par employees in the private sector (non-union workers) she would love to let go, yet she can't without just cause.

You can let a teacher go by simply checking "will not rehire" on an evaluation even if is was awesome

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185charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC

You love the status quo but the system isn't working. You apparently believe it is.

"Just cause" would cover firing people for your wife's "sub-par" performances problem. This is an "at will" state. You disagree.

Poland and Canfield both have a problem with levies. I think some of the negative voting has to do with dissatisfaction with teacher performance vis-a-vis their 10% salary increases the last 3 years. You don't agree with that.

I have one point (question) I am going to ask you not to evade - Please tell me, under the current system (which you support) how do we improve teacher performance in our schools?

Oh..., and if I run for BOE, would you support my campaign?

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186walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
Pay increases is how you do what it is you are arguing for CHARMS. It is the market system at work and you just don't see it. The governors own words. You have to pay well to attract and keep the best".

If pay increases will improve education, then we should immediately double the salary of all public school teachers. That way we will attract thebest to become teachers and we will keep the best. But, what about the mediocre and sub-par teachers that currently are degrading the system? Do you think they are going to voluntarily leave? Not with the tenure system! ANd, do you think if salaries are doubled that nepotism is going to decrease? Guess again!

And, Gov. Kasich is wrong about charter schools. No state money should go to these schools. It is very smart for the thug union people to villanize them!

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187paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC

Sorry to "burst your bubble," but everyone knows many teaching jobs don't really require a degree (especially elementary school teachers). If you care about kids and are patient - you're "good to go" teaching elementary school right out of high school! My daughter's roommate in college now teaches locally in middle school - but while my daughter was slaving away on higher level courses, her roommate was making scrapbooks for classes and cutting out pictures.

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188resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

paulparks

Absolutely Correct !

Teacher that teach Chemistry, Physics, Math take very difficult classes while elementary teachers are taking Kiddy Literature. And they all get paid the same.

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189SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,
Let teachers evaluate each other within a discipline as part of the process. Any teacher can at some point become a principal who currently evaluate. I don't want a gym teacher turn administrator to evaluate me on my content knowledge when they don't know my content.
I said it before, parents and students should not play a role in the process from this stand point. Nearly ever teacher I had in high school would have been fired because I hated them. Why? They challenged me beyond no ends. Today, I look back and thank them for doing so. I want to make a difference. The difference makers are leaving. WALTER all that will be left are the leftovers and charter schools for the average joe while the rich pay for private education.

WALTER....I do like your idea of doubling my salary. Perhaps then I won't be getting food stamps that i currently EARN!!

You maybe correct paulparks, however the state see's it differently.

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190paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

I have a problem with teachers evaluating teachers - even within the same discipline. Content knowledge can be measured by testing but teaching is only partly content knowledge. That's why you need input from students. In college, it is a routine thing to have student evaluations. The fact that you hated your teachers wouldn't have caused them to be fired. You are only one student evaluation!

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191resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

The problem with teacher evaluations is that Administrators don't want to give their "buddies" a true evaluation. And what is wrong with just randomly stopping in teacher's rooms for only 10 minutes and see if they are on task (doing what they write in their lesson plans)?

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192SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

paulperks,
like and/or dislike by the parent and student are part of kasicks SB5

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193SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

paulperks,
like and/or dislike by the parent and student are part of kasicks SB5.

doctors evaluate other doctors

lawyers evaluate other lawyers

why not teacher evaluate teacher.

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194streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

No disrespect intended, but teachers are not in the same professional league as doctors and lawyers. Also, teachers work mostly in the public sector. Doctors and lawyers work mostly in the private sector.

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195SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

my tax dollars go to pay doctors, don't they? If so, Doctors and lawyers are public employees.

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196paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

You strike me as a young, dedicated teacher who is concerned about his future with SB5. Don't worry so much. Regardless of what happens with SB5, teachers will continue to have nice jobs with good benefits. You're in a great career and you "want to make a difference." Don't be so defensive. You'll be OK.

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197paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

Glad you finally agree!

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198SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

paulperks,
I don't agree at all with you. Education will be harmed so bad in Ohio, it may never recover. I am young at heart, but a 20 year vet that will be screwed if SB5 goes through. However, I should have a nice age discrimination case when I'm let go for a cheaper (first year teacher the is someone's relations).

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199paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

If we don't reign in public sector unions we will become a socialist state - paying 50%-60% of our income in taxes.

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200questions(4 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Resident - They do that in schools. They are called walk-thru evaluations. Principals evaluate you and give you feedback either in a one on one setting or through a document in your mail box.

I agree that teachers should be evaluated. Some states offer multiple evaluators. For example, teachers from our content area, building administrators, teachers out of our content area and a teacher evaluator (someone who is hired through the district to watch you teach). They meet talk about you and then give you your feedback. In addition you have to submit a portfolio with all of your "evidence" of progress over the past 3 years. If you meet the expectations you are then good for another 3 years. If not you have to redo everything the following year or you get let go.

FYI - I am anti-SB5 because it doesn't allow teachers. firefighters or police offers to have a voice. We don't have to always agree with what is said but I feel, as Americans, everyone's voice should be heard without fear.

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201charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

questions,

Baloney! It's time to give the taxpayers a "voice." And taxpayers now have the greatest fear of anybody - because the public sector is "sucking the life" out of our economy!

paulparks,

Go get 'em, cowboy! Right on!

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202questions(4 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms - You do have a voice. Your elected officials are your voice. You elect them to represent you and your values. Your board of education holds public meetings and allows citizens to raise concerns in a public forum. Your board member's names and contact information are public record and available to you. So, Charms, you do have a voice. Whether you use it, that is up to you. If you don't like who is representing you, then elect someone else or run yourself.

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203charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

questions,

When the board of education is "in bed" with the teacher's union, there is no practical way to undue past mistakes other than vote "NO" on levies. Everything else comes too late.

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204SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

yes there is, run for the BOE and make your changes. Stop whining about it and do it!. With all due respect

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205streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

You can't change past contracts. It's only if you put a school district into fiscal emergency that the state has the power to force union concession on an existing contract.

Vote "NO" to tell the unions "make concessions."

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206AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms, SOC

Go to the BOE meetings, voice your concerns. You have a voice, use it. Tell you neighbor he/she is making to much money and you think their perks are out of line. You have a voice, use it. Stand at the HS football game this fall with signs, show your face, tell the teachers how you think they are screwing the rest of society. You have a voice, use it.
Go stand with protest sign in front of your local PD/FD tell them they make to much money. You have a voice, USE IT.

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207streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

As I said and you conveniently avoided: YOU CAN'T CHANGE PAST CONTRACTS UNLESS YOU PUT A SCHOOL DISTRICT INTO FISCAL EMERGENCY.

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208AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Yes, I know that. I did not avoid anything.

But you still have a voice. Were you there for the last contract? I sure hope you were there. Be there to fight against your employees.

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209AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC.

I agree with you. They can go to BOE meetings and stand up.. OR ........

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210SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

streetsmartt,
What do you think SB5 and the state budget is doing to every school district. You will be getting your wish sooner than you think

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211streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Canfield and Poland... Just do it! Push your districts into fiscal emergency so we can roll back the "over-the-top" salary increases of the last 3 years... People... take charge! Make the BOEs work for you! VOTE NO OVER & OVER TILL WE GET WHAT WE WANT!

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212resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

streetsmart

AMEN !!!!!! You got it !!!!!

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213charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

streetsmartt & resident,

CHA CHING! CHA CHING! CHA CHING!!

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214streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Teachers should be ashamed of themselves! Taking advantage of the taxpayers! Money grubbing "me first" attitudes that are sending our education system down the toilet!

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215karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I have been teaching for fifteen years. I do not have a masters degree, but I do have three certifications and am working on my fourth. The continuing education required to keep and upgrade my certifications comes out of my salary. Which is a comment, not a complaint.

I love teaching. I take classes, read, travel and do anything necessary to keep expanding my techniques and knowledge so that my students stay excited and involved. It is not just a job to me.

School starts at 7:45 and ends at 3:15. I am always there by 7:00 AM. I am never surprised to see the many cars in the staff lot alongside me. I tutor before/after school beyond my work hours. I work evenings and weekends to grade, evaluate assignments and create new lessons. My school day has never corresponded to the "official" hours of my contract. (i.e. never less but often many more).

I am not a believer in tenure.

I believe that we as teachers should be evaluated often; but I do not agree with basing teacher pay simply on student performance because there are too many factors that I cannot control. I see students for a limited amount of time. Some children have little or no supervision at home to make sure they eat, get enough sleep, dress properly for school and instill good study habits. Students have told me they went to bed at 4:00 AM because they were texting a friend all night. Parents have their children 17 hours of the day and I see them for only a small part of the time that they are in school. To base my salary on elements I have absolutely no control over - does this really make sense to anyone?

No Child Left Behind came into being and it began by taking money from wealthier "high-performing" districts and parsing it out to those that where "low-performing". In the minds of some politicians, this made things more equal. As if throwing money at a school can solve social ills. But NCLB is mandated by the state. Teachers and districts have no option but to do as it says. And it includes a plethora of unfunded mandates. Which means the school district must pay for them.

Some people think that if teachers take a large pay cut, there will be money from heaven for everything without levies. Except, without a levy, even deep teacher cuts can never come near to making up for state monies that have been taken away.

The questions as to why busing, extracurriculars and P to P are topping the list of cuts? Because it's that or cut an academic teacher, lose class offerings and put students into academic classrooms of 35 or more. Which sadly, has already begun.

Achieving a great education is the reason school exists.

Teachers *are* stepping up, taking cuts and freezes and paying more. I know I did willingly. But we need the public support too. It's about our community, our kids, and our belief in each other. To continue to be able to be proud of what we have given to our students and what our students have accomplished. And to respect one another.

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216karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

In response to Streetsmart:

"Canfield and Poland... Just do it! Push your districts into fiscal emergency so we can roll back the "over-the-top" salary increases of the last 3 years... People... take charge! Make the BOEs work for you! VOTE NO OVER & OVER TILL WE GET WHAT WE WANT!"

If what you want is for your vitriolic comments to push a community into putting a district into fiscal emergency, watch the state come in and take respected schools and turn them into shells of what they once were - a pride of the community -, see property values fall (what family with children will buy expensive homes in such a district?), watch communities disintigrate into disrespect, distrust and blame.......all to break contracts in which teachers have already willingly taken cuts, frozen salaries for future years and agreed to pay more for health care?

So much effort for such sad consequences.

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217SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I applaude you Karin281,
Tenure is needed to protect you. As I have stated before, tenured teachers today can be fired for poor performance after two bad evaluations And that is in the Ohio revised code(changed less than four years ago). I've seen far too many teachers on limited contracts fired for no just cause and replaced by an principals or supervisors relative.
Perhaps you have not seen such action yet, it will happen.
And to all that believe teachers contracts don't change or can't be changed, you're dead wrong. It happens all the time. Its call bargaining. When the economy is good, teachers have more to bargain with. When its bad, the BOE has more to bargain with on their side.
Ohio revised code makes it illegal for staff members from getting raises if the treasurer of the school district five year forecast shows deficient spending in any year. Sp Poland and Canfield has the money to award pay increases of 3.33% per year
That is far less than my wife gets each year in the private sector. Some of her equals are given the same raise without her production. But that only happens with teachers.....right

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218streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

karin281, SOC, ACC, jupiter,

The taxpayers are bleeding! They're down for the count!

It's not the mean taxpayers - but the teacher's union that is pushing Poland and Canfield into fiscal emergency!

Temper your greed, unions! Voluntarily roll back the 10% increases of the last 3 years...

Don't be silent any longer, unions!

Save these two great school districts!

It's up to you!

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219karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@Streetsmart

I live in the community I teach in. I am also a taxpayer, and a single person. I have lived in my community for 43 years. I went to my school. My family always voted for the schools because they are the heart of our community. I live in a decent-sized house where the levy would raise my taxes to the point it would cost me about two loaded pizzas a month. I can do without that, in order to have well-educated children, a sound community, and nice property values. One day I will want to sell my house and move to a condo. Who will buy my property once the school is in ruin? A young couple with children?

I can do without two loaded pizzas or give up one extra hair appointment a month for this.

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220streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

karin281,

If you live in Canfield or Poland, would you be willing to have your 10% in raises the last 3 years rolled back, and make greater contributions to your health care costs and pension to get the levy passed?

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221paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

streetsmartt,

Way to go... You won't see any more posting by karin281...

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222karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Last year we were in pay freeze and gave up a percentage. This year we have willingly given up step raises and taken another long term freeze for several years. (Step and regular pay freeze.)

I have already been paying into my health care ever since I came to my school system. I also pay into social security which I can never collect on. But I am required to pay into it and that I may add, goes into the pie for the rest of the tax paying public who can collect.

I'm sure what we have given up will never be enough for a few of you. Am I willing to lose ten percent of my salary? No. Would you? I think we were very fair and responsible in our negotiations.

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223streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

karin281,

WHAT ABOUT THE 10% SALARY INCREASE THE LAST 3 YEARS? You fail to mention that. That's what we want rolled back. But you refuse.

It's a different story when we aren't talking pizzas, huh?

The rest of the country is in recession.

The public wants more concessions, more concessions, more concessions!

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224karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

One thing I would like to point out is that people seem to be deliberately avoiding certain points. I do hear the one agenda “Teachers are paid too much. Break the union. Bring down their wages, and this will solve everything.”

The way Ohio funds it’s public schools was declared unconstitutional. Look up DeRolph v. State. Basically, the Ohio government refuses to police itself. How nice that would be for we common folk.

How schools are funded - based on property taxes - and No Child Left Behind’s unfunded mandates are what has decimated school funds and the need (advised by the State of Ohio!) to continually go to the taxpayers.

I see teachers *everywhere* willing to negotiate fair contracts and work with the school boards and do their part to ease the pressures on the public. But to demand a set amount “10 percent or nothing you guys will do will satisfy me” is meaningless.

To set all of this right, we need to change school funding. We need to hold the state accountable. And that takes the public, the teachers, the students, the parents and the school boards to work together and stand together and demand responsibility from our state government.

Although some wish to lump all the school ills that exist on the teachers, that is quite simply not true. We are a group of professionals who work as hard as anyone in *any sector*, are willing to work with the public and take freezes or cuts in these economic times, give a lot of heart and time to our students, and ask in return to be paid at a professional level and to earn a modicum of respect doing it.

Now I know that what I post will never satisfy some. But I have welcomed the interaction and discussion. I know that I am willing - and have - worked with my school board to come to a fair contract. But I will never be able to satisfy everyone. I believe for the schools to thrive, the public, the teachers, BOEs, the students and our *state government* must come together to save our systems. If we all give a little and work together, I believe this can be done.

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225devildog(94 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

karin....VERY well said......!
what a Class-Act Teacher you are!

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226VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Karin281 and SOC:

I applaude both of you!

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227ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Karin, VindyPost and ol' Devildog, how do you blame everything on the administrators salaries and the inability of the taxpayers to fund the 80-85% the is what the teachers pay and benefits cost each and every school district.

I do not think the 15% that covers utilities and building maintenance is what is busting the budgets. The pressure of the pensions and escalating health care costs is what is busting all of the school districts along with many a Police and Fire departments, There has to be some limit in these contracts, you do not just say we are going to give out raises because we think we will have enough money this time and if we run out of money due to health care premium increases, we will just put another emergency levy on the ballot to fill the hole.

I know I will probably never get you three along with others I will not mention right now, but where else is the additional money requested for in levies going too? Salaries and future benefit increases. I get that, but when is it enough, when you all make three times of the average taxpayer in your school district?

Or better yet when all of the taxpayers cannot afford there own health care because they had to make cuts so they could just keep the roof over their heads, will you all be happy then?

That is what I read every time you come up with the argument that, you can cut everybody else but not mine only because I deserve it? I just don't get it, when is it really going to be for the KIDS.

See what you all really want is to take the funding source away from the taxpayers property tax which will only take away the taxpayers ability to say no, that is enough, and we want changes. Your answer is to slide the funding into a place where the taxpayer has no say in how much is spent, That my friend is taxation with out representation.

Learned that in school I'll have you know.

I do not have all that many answers though I do have valid questions, and the situation we find ourselves in will not be fixed just by taxing us into the gutter and allowing the public workers to reap all of the benefits from the hard working taxpayer and his family.

Together we have to get together and do the right thing, and according to Buckeye Institute and the Vindy's government watch information, more taxes is not the answer I hate to tell you.

The costs pertaining to salaries and benefits are far outpacing the revenue. In Private business you have only one recourse, make drastic changes or file bankruptcy, it is time to make drastic changes, or file bankruptcy, because the taxpayer just cannot afford any more. I cannot make it any more clear, the taxpayers are in the self survival mode and will do what it has to preserve there little place in the world too. I guess we will just see who has the strongest will to survive now won't we.

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228AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

YTOWN1

If your boss offered you a 5% raise today would you accept it?

YES OR NO

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229AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

ytown1, Paulpark, street, charms

Kasich hired Dave Johnson for $60,000 to go to 24 meetings a year. I didn't see any of you complain about that. None of you said he is making too much money.

Lets see who will answer Vindypost's question. How do you feel about Dave's position and PAY?

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230SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

ACC,
Its bull! yet everyone will blame strictland. However, Little "Hitler" KASICK could have changed the salary to 50 dollars a meet instead of $2500.

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231charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Vindypost, SOC, ACC,

How dare you impugn the character of Dave Johnson! I know Dave personally. He's a good man.

And how dare you belittle the importance of the position Dave was appointed to. We want the best and the brightest serving on this board - and Dave certainly meets the bill.

I feel the pay is a little "light" considering the great responsiblity Dave has in this position.

You get what you pay for, my friends! If you want the best for this important state position, you have to pay for it.

Don't be cheap when it comes to this board - that deals with the lives of your friends and neighbors.

Congratulations, Dave! Way to go! Good luck!

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232karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@Ytown

I said we needed to hold the State of Ohio responsible for decisions it made and refused to uphold.

I did not make a single negative comment about BOEs or administrations in any of my posts.

However I must say the idea that I make "three times" what most people do in my district is an utter fallacy.

I am a taypayer in my own district - a teacher and a taxpayer - and I do try to look at things from both perspectives.

As far as changing how schools are funded, again, we will never please everyone. Right now funding by house tax or state mandate are the only options we have. Perhaps we can come up with something new. But it has to include the voices and ideas of the taxpaying public, the teachers, the administrations, the BOEs, and the *state governement.*

And NCLB needs to be changed in how it decides which districts are more needful of money. If NCLB were more equitable instead of throwing money at a school to fix the society around it, part of this funding mess would not exist.

I see so many of the attacks simply on the teachers, which is inquitable in light they are some of the only ones currently that are moving to take cuts and freezes. I think we need to look to and demand that our state government make some serious changes in how schools are funded and NCLB and we would see a difference.

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233SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,
SHAME ON DAVE JOHNSON FOR RAPING THE TAXPAPERS. AS LONG AS IS FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR FRIENDS ITS OK, ISN"T IT.
WELL I KNOW MANY TEACHERS IN POLAND AND CANFIELD AND I WOULD BE PROUD TO HAVE THEM TEACH MY CHILDREN.
IF DAVE JOHNSON IS AS GOOD A PERSON AS YOU SAY HIS IS< HE SHOULD NOT TAKE A DIME FROM THE TAX PAYING PUBLIC LIKE MYSELF AND VINDYPOST< AND ACC

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234AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms, I feel the same way about the teaching profession and police officers.

In your words'
How dare you impugn the character of TEACHERS! I know TEACHERS personally. THEY are good man and women.

And how dare you belittle the importance of the position of a TEACHER . We want the best and the brightest serving our future - and TEACHERS certainly meets the bill.

I feel the pay is a little "light" considering the great responsiblity TEACHERS have in their position.

You get what you pay for, my friends! If you want the best for this important state position, you have to pay for it.

Don't be cheap when it comes to TEACHERS - that deals with the lives of your friends and neighbors.

Congratulations, TEACHERS! Way to go! Good luck!

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235resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Many people in the Mahoning Valley have not had a pay increase in years and many have even lost their jobs. I know of several in both situations. So why do teachers automatically feel they deserve a raise in this economic situation. When people lose their jobs, they are not replaced and therefore someone now has to do double the work for the same pay !! Oh my, how terrible for a teacher to have 35 students !!! And it isn't just the pay. There are a few good teachers and I greatly applaud them. The problem is, there are many that are only there to collect a pay check or coach. The administrators need to start earning their pay and give TRUE and ACCURATE evaluations of their teachers and MAKE them do a decent job ! What happens in the private sector if you do not do a good job? You are gone ! I am sure there are many people who would make excellen teachers and it is time to get rid of the ones that don't do anything !!!!!

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236karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@ resident: concerning teachers, students and overcrowded classrooms:

I'm not as concerned for the teacher to have 35 students as much as I am for the students. In larger, crowded classrooms, it is much harder to be able to give every student what they individually require: just as an example, we have students that have special education issues, ADD problems, average students and students that are on each end of the ability spectrum in one room.

You have one teacher working hard to balance 35 to 40 children, keep excellent classroom management and meet each child's needs simultaneously.

I would invite anyone to come into such a classroom and teach (and really teach - meeting the standards, having interesting presentations, giving the students valid assessments) for 50 minutes and see how one would fare managing 35-40 teenagers of varying levels crammed into a classroom originally built for 20- 25 and complete the curriculum to everyone's satisfaction.

I simply know from experience that students in a classroom of 25-28 fare better than a more crowded classroom of 35-40.

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237resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

karin281

If you can't handle it, then maybe someone else can. Exactly what I am talking about. To be a truly good teacher it has to come from the heart. Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. Many people would like to be doctors and lawyers, but we aren't all able to what we want to do.

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238charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

For a teacher to stoop to the level you have in personally attacking a good man like Dave Johnson is a travesty.

Where are your bearings, man? What right do you have to speak ill of a good man like Dave without knowing him? Is it just because he is a republican and you are a democrat?

You've proven that you can learn bad things as well as good from a teacher.

You embarrass yourself with your attitude,

You embarrass yourself with your smugness, &

You embarrass the whole teaching profession when you act like such a jackass. Yes, my friend, a jackass.

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239charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

So you've turned the tables on me, eh?

Problem is - most teachers couldn't shine Dave Johnson's shoes!

He's a real man - a success in the private sector - lending his expertise to the public sector.

Maybe he scares you because he is so competent.

Maybe he intimidates you because he is so smart,

Maybe he shames you because you wish you had the guts he has.

I wish we had a dozen Dave Johnsons locally to help this troubled area!

BUDDA BING BUDDA BOOM...

CHA CHING CHA CHING CHA CHING

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240AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

No body has attacked Dave Johnson.

""lending his expertise to the public sector""

Lending does not mean getting $60,000 in return. I call that selling himself.

Charms you are so defensive about protecting all those public workers.

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241karin281(10 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@resident

Actually I handle my classroom very well. But I also have a lot of years of experience. I was simply explaining that not *all* teachers are complaining about class size for themselves. I was trying to show the perspective of trying to make sure a class that size with different abilities (which is very common) gets everything it deserves.

It's interesting that when some people make a rebuttal on this thread it generally contains a veiled insult. ;-)

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242SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Karin281,
you are correct again. Charms wants to name call because he/she/ or it has been called at your own game. I have not attacked Dave Johnson the person. The public official yes, but not the person. You have done nothing but attack teachers and the unions that have provided for the children of this valley since some parents fail to do what they should. When one has no arguement, they begin the name calling.
Charms and streetsmarts are one in the same. the crab pulling those who are trying to climb out of the pot back in because they want company at the bottom of the thought pool.
Sorry Crabs.....I mean Charms, I don't play those games. I deal with truths. If they hurt your feelings. "Go ahead, make my day" , take you ball and go home!

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243ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC, you asked this.

YTOWN1

If your boss offered you a 5% raise today would you accept it?

YES OR NO

NO, why because I am the boss, and we as a company just could not afford it at this time, we will see if things approve over time, but right now it would not be a raise anyway, as we are still counting on how far back we have gone, it appears to back somewhere around 2006? And that does not include the double and triple digit health care insurance increases since 2006 either. I guarantee that no public employee is anywhere near the wages of 2006, Remember I have browsed Buckeye Institute along with what the Vindicator has posted.

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244ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@Karin
You jumped the gun on this one or just did not read my whole comment, so I will post it after your comment so you can have a clearer view of what I posted.

"However I must say the idea that I make "three times" what most people do in my district is an utter fallacy."

My statement: I know I will probably never get you three along with others I will not mention right now, but where else is the additional money requested for in levies going too? Salaries and future benefit increases. I get that, but when is it enough, when you all make three times of the average taxpayer in your school district?

The three times statement was meant for future disparity of wages for public employees and the average taxpayers, never did I say you made three times at this time.

Just wanted to clarify that for you Karin.

And as far as blame goes, I have religiously held all public employees, public administrators along with politicians that decide these insane contracts accountable. Remember the contracts would not be awarded if the unions would not demand these things either, they could always take the high road and not ask for these ever creative ways to compensate the rank and file if they had the best interest of the communities they live and work in, that is if they really cared about the financial well being of their local governments and neighbors who carry the huge burden of paying for these things, we know you pay taxes too, but compare how many there is of you that take and how many more it takes to pay these bills.

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245VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

To: Another Average Citizen,

In ref. to Dave Johnson's $60,000 salary to attend 24 meetings...
****************************************************************************
I have simply asked just a few folks on "pay disparity board"....
It looks like Charms responded.

Still (yawn) waiting for others paulparks, streetsmartt, stan,

***************************************************************************
It's Called Denial. See Coward Run.

Ya...they all resemble and truly identify with "Punxsutawney Phil"! They won't emerge until Ground Hog's Day---Next Feb. 2nd 2012 or the following Feb. 2nd 2016. Presidential Race time.

Gound Hogs in nature are afraid of their own shadow...they abruptly return to their HOLE! They always fail on predictions! Hibernation is probably best suited for such rodents.

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246AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I repeat from the original article

BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very well put Carmella Smallhoover

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247devildog(94 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC.....you nailed it! Charms is ridiculosly miserable...always bashing teachers.....makes you wonder what his/her/its story really is....way too much negativity so it has to be personal. EVERYONE pays taxes and not too many are happy about it, but bashing the education profession is just absurd!
Karin, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.....you must be an awesome teacher, good for you, God Bless You...keep touching lives like you do! Unfortuantely the haters will continue to hate, but teachers will continue to rise above it and do their jobs!!!!

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248AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms, Why didn't you mention your personal friend "Dave Johnson" along with the others? Call him out too. Is he lazy now that he is a GOVT taxpayer? Will you be calling him a "THUG" also?

Charms also in another article you didn't even know your friends first name.....

Ok, my friend... What does Bill Johnson's new job have to do with SB5? Didn't the job exist under Strickland? I didn't see anywhere that the governor created the position anew.

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249VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms,

What an "unbelievable" quote, you and Dave Johnson are friends and you know him personally?! Really? Surely you can't be serious? Frankly, HE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR YOU--(he has 24 meetings to attend and collect his $60,000 dollars)

Anyway.......

Perhaps do yourself and ALL of us a favor. Try to take just one or two days off from these vindy boards. Relax, Refresh, Meditate, Do something you truly Enjoy. Breathe the fresh summer air! I promise, life will be so much more satisfying. : )

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250VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Well folks here's another invitation from karin281 post #244

Like I said in post #42 (4 weeks ago)

Enclosed are 2 invitations now:
1 from Carmella (in this letter above)
1 from Karin281 (post #244)

Experience the teaching profession and classroom environment and quit bashing and throwing darts at our educators! Go see for yourself. Then debate.

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251charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost, and all your friends...

If I sound negative, it's because negativity is called for.

SOC and karin, teachers both, have made their arguments in support of repealing SB5. Others have argued otherwise.

When specifically asked about the 10% raise she got the last 3 years, karin said "No Way" to rolling back those increases to balance the budget and get a levy passed.

It seems this "just for the kids" argument is just rhetoric. And karin seem to be a nice person and probably is a good teacher - but the point is this: even good teachers have to sacrifice to make the system work again.

We've all suffered in the private sector... why should our beloved teachers "share the pain?"

This "crab" talk is just name calling - juvenile stuff.

I've learned a lot from both sides on this blog. There have been arguments made against SB5 that I didn't think of.

And for those of you who would bash Dave Johnson, go ahead. He can take it. His job existed long before his appointment & I feel it is an important job.

But in the final analysis, we all only have one vote a piece, both on school levies and on SB5. Bot we can't vote on Dave Johnson's pay.

We all can't visit classrooms, as some have suggested. But we can look at teacher salaries and decide if they are warranted.

Many in the teaching field are overpaid, pure and simple. You could have a 100 Dave Johnsons and that wouldn't touch the millions in overpayments we are making to teachers.

Dave Johnson's salary is a "drop in the bucket," my friends... a drop in the bucket.

So agreed... enjoy the summer... this blog isn't everything... but let's be civil about this. After all, we are all in the same boat.

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252SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms, You claim now that public workers are in the same boat as you. How can you make that claim. Where do you base your facts?!

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253charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

I mean from the standpoint that we all have to deal with the "ups and downs" of the human condition.

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254walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

What is the basis for criticizing Dave Johnson for being apponted to the Board of Directors of the Ohio BWC. This is an extremely important position for the companies that do business in this state. The compensation is $2500 per month for board meeting and $2500 per month for committee meetings, no matter how many are held, with a maximum compensation of $60,000 per year. You are asking important people to be away from their companies for many days a year and this amount seems very reasonable for the responsibility they have. BTW, one of the BWC board members is David Caldwell, the president of the Central Ohio AFL-CIO and a former USW Local president. A union official! Think he is giving his compensation back?

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255AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Walt,
Nobody has critized Dave Johnson. But when you make statements like ""You are asking important people to be away from their companies for many days a year and this amount seems very reasonable for the responsibility"". $60,000 for a COUPLE DAYS A YEAR. ""REALLY""!!!!!! a couple days a year $60,000 but so many claim teaches are over paid at $60,000 a year. I would gues after looking at GOV watch and many local schools in the area, the average pay for a school teacher is not over $60,000. If David Caldwell makes the same, then I feel the same on his pay also. I wonder will they get a retirement from this also? Like Gov, senate, congress get for just a few years work.

SOC, we are all in the same boat. WE all pay taxes.

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256charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

Many teachers are overpaid at 60K a year. You know it. We all know it.

Some are overpaid at 40K.

Some are overpaid at 30K.

We all know these things.

The shoe shine boy's time isn't worth the same as the executive's time - who's getting his shoes shined.

All teachers know this.

walter is right. You can't expect a high powered executive to work for nothing.

No offense, but his time is worth a whole lot more than a teacher's time.

Sorry... life isn't fair.

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257walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,
Why don't you read the BWC website and check on their compensation. It is a maximum of $60,000 per year and the job holds much responsibility. Ask any business owner that has to deal with BWC and what the cost is. Boards such as this are not paid for out of general fund money but by the premiums paid by the businesses. You can't compare the BWC position to that of a teacher.

BTW, in post #241, SaveOurCountry said,
"SHAME ON DAVE JOHNSON FOR RAPING THE TAXPAPERS."

I'm not supposed to take that as criticism? I'm sorry, my bad.

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258SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Bring the average man down...It has finally hit the day of light. WALTERand CHARMS are for the Elite in the world, Not the whole. It all makes perfect sense. Lets make personal attacks on educated people (TEACHERS POLICE< FIRE AND OTHER PUBLIC WORKERS) to make the high school graduate that didn't want to further an education working at Walmart or the such feel as if they are being robbed by public workers. When they are actually being robbed by the elite class that are just as lazy as the teachers are the make claim without justifcation.
Perhaps if businesses provided better working conditions WALT, BWC wouldn't be needed!

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259walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

You obviously have no idea what the BWC is and what it is all about. It exists because every job has inherent risks no matter how safe we may try to make them. I'm not for bringing down the average man but you believe that Dave Johnson is raping the taxpayers. Your words, not mine. Dave Johnson is trying to run a company in which the deck has been stacked against him with this country' s trade policies.

But, you are comparing apples and oranges. We are all created equal but that ends with the first school bell! That's why we give grades. You are unhappy about the inequalities of outcomes and the perceived inequities of the system.

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260streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC

walter and charms have it, exactly!

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261AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Charms says about his buddy Dave Johnson.

He can take it. His job existed long before his appointment & I feel it is an important job.

I wonder why dave didn't know he was going to get paid for it.

YEA RIGHT.......

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262AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

""We all can't visit classrooms, as some have suggested. But we can look at teacher salaries and decide if they are warranted""

Is this how merit pay works? You don't go look to see how one is doing, you just look at salary and thats it.
Thats why merit pay does not always work.

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263AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

""You can't compare the BWC position to that of a teacher.""

Yea I know, dave only works 24 meetings a year. Teachers don't start at $60,000 and they work over 180 days.

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264VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Excuse me Walter?

In ref to your post #265=
Why don't you read the BWC website and check on their compensation. It is a maximum of $60,000 per year and the job holds much responsibility. Ask any business owner that has to deal with BWC and what the cost is. Boards such as this are not paid for out of general fund money but by the premiums paid by the businesses. You can't compare the BWC position to that of a teacher.

******************************************************************************

**Dave Johnson stated: "I didn't realize when I was asked that this was a PAID position!"

*****************************************************************************
Bull-ony! Lied.
Ya, right...Dave Johnson knew damn well he was collecting $60,000 for 24 meetings--- and a very good paid position---just cannot admit it; he feels guilty. Now publicized.

So, Walter in essence Mr. Johnson a board member, also needs to catch up on BWC. Reckon?

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265charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,

You malign the character of Dave Johnson. Shame on you!

I believe what he said is true!

Prove that he lied... Go ahead, PROVE IT!

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266VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Chomp on this!

(7th paragraph)

http://www.morningjournalnews.com/pag...

Johnson named to seat on workers compensation board
June 10, 2011
By TOM GIAMBRONI - Staff Writer , Morning Journal News
Save | Comments (2) | Post a comment |
LISBON - Columbiana County Republican Party chairman and business owner David Johnson has been appointed to the state board that sets policy for workers compensation claims and oversees agency investments.

Johnson's appointment to the Ohio Bureau of Workers Compensation board was among three such appointments made this week by Gov. John Kasich to the 11-member board. Kasich is a Republican.

"It's an honor to be asked by the governor to work on something as important as the BWC board," Johnson said, adding he was nominated for the position by a committee consisting of representatives from the Ohio Manufacturers Association, Ohio Chamber of Commerce, organized labor and the Ohio Municipal League, among others.

"It's a pretty diverse group on the board," he said, adding both organized labor and business are allocated representatives on the board. Johnson will occupy the seat for businesses with more than 100 employees.

In addition to being Republican Party chairman, Johnson is president of the Summitville Tile Co., which employs 150 workers. He also owns the Spread Eagle Tavern, with another 35 employees.

Summitville Tile was recently honored for going 652,526 consecutive hours without a single accident that resulted in lost time. "I think that's the hands-on perspective the governor wants me to bring to the board," Johnson said.

The position pays $2,500 per meeting and the board meets twice a month, for an annual salary of $60,000. "I didn't realize when I was asked this was a paid position," he said.

Unlike some boards, Johnson said this is working board that oversees a department with 2,000 employees that oversees 1.3 million workers at 220,000 businesses and manages $2 billion in investment assets.

"There's an awful lot involved. You don't just show up for a meeting," he said.

Johnson's appointment still has to be confirmed by the Ohio Senate, "but I don't expect any problems," he said.

tgiambroni@mojonews.com

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267charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

So what!

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268VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

When anybody accepts or is appointed to a job .....questions and answers are revealed as to pay, benefits, and term. This is not charity!

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269VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Shame the morningjournal news...not me!

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270JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"Dave Johnson's position is plain and simple abuse. When people were placed under other administrations such as this man people were screaming foul but this is okay. Why should everyone else be held accountable except for our ELECTED Governor. "

Geromajor, do you realize the BWC 11-member Board was created under Ohio law - House Bill 100, signed in June 2007, by STRICKLAND?

The BWC's operating income is received from employer premiums and investments, and to the tune of $2.1 Billion (probably a good idea to have some oversight).

"The BWC Board of Directors have 11 members who represent the interests of Ohio workers, employers and the public at large. The board also includes members with professional expertise in financial accounting, investments and securities, and actuarial management.

Three members represent Employers:
-One for self-insuring employers
-One for employers with more than 100 employees
-One for employers with fewer than 100 employees

Two members represent Employee Organizations

One member represents Employees

One member represents the Public

Two members are Investment and Securities Experts (and must be Ohio residents):

One member is a Certified Public Accountant

One member is an Actuary"

http://www.ohiobwc.com/basics/Boardof...

The law:

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/Bi...

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271charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

geromajor,

Not much to say about Dave Johnson's job now, eh?

The truth hurts, my friend! The truth hurts!

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272walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,
You obviously have trouble reasoning. Mr. Johnson stated "I didn't realize when I was asked this was a paid position," . What is your basis in fact that can say that this is not so? This just says he was honored to be appointed by the governor. Now he knows he will be compensated for his time to be on the board for a maximum of $60,000 per year, as prescribed by ORC. These funds are not paid out of general fund tax monies but by the premiums that are paid by businesses for workers. Now, there is no doubt that this appointment was a payback for the work Mr. Johnson did in the election of Gov. Kasich. But, once again, under ORC, this is a power of the governor. To the victor! If Mr. Strickland would have won, do you think Mr. Johnson would have been appointed or do you believe that he would have appointed one of his supporters? These appointments are done on a rotation basis and have varying terms. But, hey, don't let the facts confuse you.

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273VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Sobchak SAYS;
'This just says he was honored to be appointed by the governor.'

******************************************************************************
Sobchak, You fail to realize "you scratch my back ...I'll scratch yours"!

Here it is in black and white...
This position certainly does come w/ a
$60,000 dollar pay for 24 meetings and don't act dumb, too! ( And Johnson like a 15 year old -"are you gonna pay me to cut the grass, Really, Really?) C'Mon... Wake -up Sobchak! That's called ignorance...why do you suppose all republicans and dems are very upset. Listen to the outrage surrounding the locals in Columbus...just because one is 3 hours away in little Y-town doesn't make this real. And special thanks to Lenny Romito for bringing this to the front burner! Both parties are very angry with Kasick. Look, the man is voted least popular unwanted governor currently!

If you can't see through the politics back scratching refrain from commenting.

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274streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,

walter said, To the victor!" The rest of the quote is "goes the spoils."

He acknowledged that this is a political appointment. He's been informative and logical. I applaud his comments!

What' wrong WITH YOU that you hate this particular appointment so much? I would really like to know.

Dave Johnson isn't the problem. The BWC board isn't the problem. The governor isn't the problem.

I would think that you would be reasonable enough to carefully consider walter's comments and respond appropriately.

The only "outrage" I see out of this appointment is in this blog.

Gosh, who do you think your audience is?

I guess you can always find someone who shares your views on the internet.

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275walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,
Once again, don't let the facts confuse you. Ohio Revised Code Sec. 4121.12.1 was revised in June of 2007 by HB100 and signed into law by Ted Strickland outlining the Board of Directors composition, terms, compensation, etc. This has nothing to do with Kasich except the fact that he makes the appointments to the Board. Read post #278 or go to the BWC website. Of course, he is going to appoint his supporters. Do you expect him to appoint his enemies? And, when did they hold an election that voted Kasich "least popular unwanted governor currently"? Last election I remember, Kasich beat Ted Strickland as the man more voting Ohioans wanted for governor!

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you are abusing the privilege!

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276AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Walt, says
""This has nothing to do with Kasich except the fact that he makes the appointments to the Board. Read post #278 or go to the BWC website. ""

Please explain why Kasich has nothing to do with this. IF what you say is true, then what does Kasick have to do with teachers pay and positions. Kasick could lower the pay of this entire board if he was interested in saving OHIO. What about MERIT PAY? Dave is making the Max salary, before he does anything. How would you feel if Poland Schools hire a new teacher(remember the job was already there) at the MAXIMUM PAY for first year.

Walt, Practice what you preach.

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277VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Staff report

COLUMBUS

Gov. John Kasich has appointed Dave Johnson, Columbiana County Republican Party chairman, a member of the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation board of directors.

Johnson of Salem, who owns Summitville Tile, a 99-year-old ceramic tile company, was selected by the governor, also a Republican, on Tuesday. Johnson was among three BWC board appointees selected Tuesday. The board has 11 members.

Each member makes $60,000 annually to serve on the board that meets two days a week each month.

“My interest is to be of any assistance to the Kasich administration, to make Ohio a better place to work and to protect employees injured on the job,” Johnson said.

The BWC board establishes overall administrative policies for the bureau. It adopts rules for investments as well as strengthens accountability and transparency at the agency, according to its website.

*****************************************************************************

Exactly Another Average Citizen---

As stated in the article above, Johnson Quotes: "My interest is to be of any assistance to the Kasich administration"

The article also states ALL 11 members on the board collect $60,000 for only 24 meetings!

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278VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Sobchak:

http://business-journal.com/kasich-ti...

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279walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,
Your comment

Look, the man is voted least popular unwanted governor currently!

There was no vote taken. This is a poll of people, not an election in which the citizens vote. Polls are notoriously fickle. If things turn around, Kasich's POLL numbers will go up. Now, as to the board appointment, the members are appointed by the Governor and paid monthly stipends for meetings as stated in OHIO REVISED CODE. $2500 per month if one or more board meetings are held. Same for the committee meetings. This is law! The Governor cannot appoint the person and then change their pay up or down. They do not serve at the pleasure of the Governor. You have to change ORC. Once again, I have no doubt that this appointment is political. So what? You obviously have no clue just how important the BWC and its rules are to the business climate in a state. Educate yourseld instead of being ignorant of the law.

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280charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,

walter left you "twisting in the wind" again. Either argue the facts like he does or give up. Your hurting your cause.

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281VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Now Listen SOBchak:

When I get phone calls from political reps, they say, we are doing a poll, who would you vote for now? So, I give my vote! Go ahead and tear it up like principle/principal but it is truly evident your obsessive disorder is picking out negativity and not wanting to focus on the whole link or article!

Interpret and perceive as you want, no biggy.

And listen Charms, I've got a Tough Shell, brother. Frankly, I don't give up.

**It's more gratifying to Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick!

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282VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

p.s. Yourseld is not spelled with a "d"
YOURSELF

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283VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

In defense of teachers

Well, the time has come for someone to stand up for the legions of wonderful educators in this area. Lately this profession had been maligned, cursed and accused of sending this country into its economic woes. The paper makes accusations that make my head spin. And it accuses anyone who dares to question it as not being intelligent enough to ask appropriate questions.

Yes, I am an educator and have been for 35 years. I am proud to say that my family has combined experience in education of over 127 years. We have worked in grades K through 12 and in administration. Most of us came into this profession when business was booming and companies were providing their employees with generous annual increases, free medical insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, employer donations to a pension fund and matched contributions to 401ks. Most of them received two to six weeks vacation or more and 11 paid holidays. Which means that they worked on average 15 days more than teachers did — and they didn’t have to go to school nights or summers to keep their jobs. I know that well because my husband was one of these people for many years.

At that time, teachers were working for far less than most other professions. There was minimum insurance and we have always paid into our pension fund. We had summers off, but most had to work other jobs to be able to provide for their families.

The profession has finally reached the point that is comparable to livelihoods of other professions. Unfortunately, this has come at a time when businessmen have made a mess of the economy. We are not responsible for this, but we are being attacked constantly. I invite any of you to spend an entire day with 24 kindergartners or 4th graders or be responsible for 150 high school English students and then decide if we are in fact not paid enough forThis nation has been served well by the public school system and its teachers for generations. Who do you think educated the people who are throwing darts at us now?

Carmella Smallhoover, Poland

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284walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

The "d" and "f" key are next to each other and is a typo that I missed. The principle/principal issue is someone that doesn't know the correct word usage. The principal is my "PAL". My way of tweeking someone that defends educators but doesn't know proper word usage.

That being said, the only vote that matters is on election day. The poll you cite in your link was an automated phone poll of 565 people done by a Democratic organization over a 5 day period in May. These are preferences in a questionable poll, not a vote. Certainly, a vote will be held in November and those will be the results that matter in the SB5 issue. The petition drive has been impressive. I would expect it to be since the unions already have an organization in place and they mobilized the membership. However, you can't argue the facts about Dave Johnson and his appointment to the BWC board.

"Now, go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"

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285VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOBchak:

Taunt 10x's... that's your obsessive disorder, not mine.

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286streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,

Can't we elevate this discussion above claiming someone has a disorder?

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287AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Public worker haters,

Someone misspells a word and you get on them. But you misspell a word you have an excuse. Someone uses vote and you complain about it is not a vote it is a poll. So What!!
You always have an excuse.

If a public employee makes a living you complain. Unless it is your buddy, then it is OK.

If you want to debate things, FINE. If you are on here to "TAUNT" then Taunt away and nobody will take you serious.

Keep up the good work Gov.
Just 33% of voters in the state now approve of Kasich to 56% who disapprove. In March it was a 35/54 spread. Kasich's numbers are basically identical to where they were then with independents, and he's actually ticked up a little bit with Democrats.

What's really plunging him is that Republicans aren't even all that enthused about him anymore- he's gone from a +53 (71/18) spread with them in March to now +30 (58/28) with them in May. That 23 point decline within his own party is largely responsible for his overall drop.

http://www.progressohio.org/blog/2011...

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288AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Street,
Why can't we elevate this above Taunting? Or complain about a misspelled word.

""Dave Johnson isn't the problem. The BWC board isn't the problem. The governor isn't the problem""

So there is no problem. $60,000 a year for 24 meetings. No problem with a state as broke as Gov says we are.

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289streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

This string of comments is supposed to relate to a letter written about teachers.

What does Dave Johnson, who will be paid from BWC premiums, according to state law - have to do with the goods and bads of teaching profession?

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the connection. He is not going to be paid for with your tax dollars like teachers are.

I think that anti-Kasich fever has taken hold of some of you on this blog.

Teachers have a big target on their backs because they are paid for by local school levies, they have received unreasonable raises, (considering the economy), they aren't paying enough of their perks and bennies & many are way overpaid for 9 months/30 years-to-retire jobs.

How hard is that to grasp, my friends?

'nuf said.

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290walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AnotherAverageCitizen,

You people need to get a SENSE OF HUMOR. If I use quotation marks with a quip, it is a quote from a movie. Have you never seen Monty Python, Caddyshack, Big Lebowski, Blazing Saddles? You want to take shots at me, go ahead! I will come up with a pithy, humorous comment that those like me will appreciate.

Now, pay attention to what Streetsmartt says. Why was Dave Johnson brought into an argument about teachers and SB5? The FACTS are:
The governor has the power to appoint BWC board members. The board members are paid $2500 per month for board meetings and $2500 per month for committee meetings. If they don't meet, they don't get paid. If they meet for more than one meeting, they still get $2500. They do not serve at the pleasure of the governor but the appointment will definitely be political. The board members are paid out of funds collected on premiums paid by companies with Ohio employees.
Now, this is all set out in Ohio Revised Code and is law! It was passed in 2007 and signed by Ted Strickland. Even someone as clueless as Ted knew the importance of getting good, concerned people on the board. Once appointed, the governor cannot change the pay; only the legislature can.

This is up to 300 comments and "fedupwithcrap" has not even made a comment here!

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291AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

""Why was Dave Johnson brought into an argument about teachers and SB5?"" So what if the pay is law. Change the law, just like so many would love to change teacher contracts. Dave Johnson and his pay was probably compared to teacher salaries when folks complain about teachers only working 183 days for $60,000 and Dave attends meeting 24 days a year. Does "GO TO MEETING" count for him showing up? Does dave get paid $2,500 to sit at home on his laptop to attend a Meeting?

SB5 is supposed to be about saving money in OHIO. Well that's what the Gov wants us to believe. If SB5 was REALLY about saving money for ALL public employees in Ohio, Gov kasick could start implementing the SB5 rules on NONUNION employees today. Including himself and his staff. BUT NO that is not happening, he just wants to MAKE UNION EMPLOYEES suffer. So you tell me what SB5 is about. Saving Money. NO Busting Unions YES....

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292charms(228 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

If SB5 curtails perks and bennies for public sector employees who are unionized, so be it. You've got to start somewhere to reign in spending.

Will it save money? - YES!

Will it hurt unions? - WHO CARES! They're too powerful anyway and thus wield too much power over taxpayers, THEIR BOSSES

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293VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

TO:Streetsmartt.

...Your quote
This string of comments is supposed to relate to a letter written about teachers.

....yes, I have cut, pasted this article twice to re-direct this important issue. ( see VindyPost #169 & VindyPost #291 )

....I must add, your side-kick Charms is all over the place, (tangents) perhaps settle him down and do us all a favor. Can you believe he actually thought I was Carmella? (charms #171)

....Your question
What does Dave Johnson, who will be paid from BWC premiums, according to state law - have to do with the goods and bads of teaching profession?

....in essence, it's comparing apples w/ oranges...BUT I have to agree with Another Average Citizen "Change the law, just like so many would love to change teacher contracts" Since our state is in crisis, legislature needs to take a good look since 2007---we are marching into 2012! LAWS CAN BE CHANGED--it happens all the time. That's where what's good for one is good for another. Budget. but sb5 is only goal.
BTW it'll FAIL.

....Your quote
I think that anti-Kasich fever has taken hold of some of you on this blog.

....not only this blog, throughout the state of Ohio on EVERY blog. You're right, Anti-Kasich. (tied, most-unpopular, most-unwanted gov in the country) A million signatures on its way.

....taunting issue?

....I'm up for intellectual debate, if one's chosen goal is to taunt they'll run out of gas and the debater will prevail. Intellectual debate is far stronger than juvenile taunting---that is a disorder, and I'm glad you recognized it.

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294paulparks(235 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

VindyPost,

You seem to be against everyone who agrees with our governor, is a republican, or just wants to start reigning in public spending.

walter is wrong, streetsmartt is wrong, charms is wrong... others are wrong...

Are you a public employee, is your wife, where are you coming from?

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295JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"Gov kasick could start implementing the SB5 rules on NONUNION employees today."

Average, Kasich doesn't need to target nonunion employees. Those costs can be controlled already. For example:

"Olentangy cancels raises for non-union employees"

"The board of education voted unanimously yesterday to suspend the step increases for the non-union employees for next school year. "

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/...

School district boards already have the authority to make changes to non-union employees that will impact their expenses (just like private sector employers). SB5 is a tool for the Boards to do the same for union employees.
Non-union public employees are not under a limiting contract, thus there is no need to target them in SB5 - Do you understand?

Also, if you pay attention to what is going on regarding the State budget, you would know that cutting politician pay is being discussed.

And, Kasich's overall staff salaries are lower than Stricklands.

In case you still don't get it, Walter clearly explained the BWC - The Board Members are compensated with money received from Ohio's EMPLOYERS via premiums.

You need some new rhetoric. Until then, stick with "it's about the kids".

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296resident(40 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Carmella,

You are correct in what you are saying. However, things have really changed. Many teachers today are not what teachers used to be. When salaries and benefits were low, the teachers were there because they wanted to be. Now that things (pay, benefits, etc.) have changed, many want in the profession. And many do not satisfy the needs of the students. And most of the blame is in the high school and most of the blame goes to the administration for not enforcing the teachers to perform adequately !!! And now that the teachers have a respectable income, they need to accept the fact that the country is in deplorable financial situation and that they also need a pay freeze.

In terms of finances, pay to play is a joke. How much money is that going to generate??? Why not take the Athletic Director off of an administrative salary and put him on a teacher's salary where he should be. Now that would generate far more money !!!

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297AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JME says,
""Average, Kasich doesn't need to target nonunion employees. Those costs can be controlled already.""

OH YES HE DOES.........

If what you are saying is true, all those school administration would not be getting FREE retirement. For some reason kasick only wants union employees to pay more for retirement. He should start with himself and his staff.

sb5 does not limit the retirement minimum to only union employees. It states ALL public employees. But Kasich will not even start with HIS OWN STAFF.

""Non-union public employees are not under a limiting contract, thus there is no need to target them in SB5 - Do you understand?""

YES I understand fully thank you. SB5 is about screwing union employees only. If it were TRUELY about saving money kasick would make ALL employees under HIS RULE.

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298streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

Every law discriminates against one or more groups of people.

The target here is trying to heal the "grossly overcompensated" public sector. No, it doesn't include everyone in the public sector.

But I would be happy if it only included the complaining cutthroat teacher's union employees.

Start where the abuse is the worst. Public sector union employees are the worst of the worst AND TEACHERS ARE THE WORST OF THEM ALL!

You could make the argument that since Ohio law gives unionized employees the most perks and bennies - that it is only logical to start there when you try to "clip the wings" of the public sector.

KA BOOM! KA BOOM! KA BOOM!

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299VindyPost(436 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

.....paulparks says: post #302

walter is wrong, streetsmartt is wrong, charms is wrong... others are wrong...

WELL, I Certainly AGREE with You, too!

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300AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

If teachers pay 10% into their retirement and Administration pay 0%, Please explain how teachers have better bennies then administration. There is no justification for it except there are more teachers, and less administration getting FREE retirement.

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301AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Well Vindypost and PP are finally starting to agree on some things.

Glad to see some things are coming together.

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302JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Average,

You have the thought process of a female teenager - no focus.

Please try and follow.

The tools to control non-union expenses are already in place, the school Board or whoever the public employer is has to have the ballz to use that tool to control cost. SB5 covers the union portion to control costs. Kasich knows that the non-union public employee expenses can already be controlled, that's why it looks like it targets union public employees.

Regarding pensions, you are somewhat correct. Public employees must pay 10% toward pension. Some don't (mostly administrators, or upper level folks) - but they are not getting it free! SB5 says those folks must cover their 10% - the local employer cannot cover the employee portion. That is all local costs, not the State - which helps us as local tax payers. Now you may ask why the State would push that - less money they have to feed the Local Gov. If the locals control their cost, the State can save money. This is a tool used by private industry - you force the local entity to do what is needed to be economical viable. Take GM for example. Each plant must perform economically to survive. SB5 forces local schools, county's, city's, etc. to be responsible for their own budget. The State does would not control this. It comes down to the local leaders to control their own costs.

SB5 or Kasich doesn't need to target non-union public employees because those tools are already in place - they're just not being used, which is why the whole system is screwed up.

I'm trying to give you, and SOC, the benefit of the doubt and provide some actual facts to argue your point, but you don't.

Geromajor is the only anti-SB5 person that brings up some legitimate points to debate.

Vindypost, I think you had some good points, but the bashing takes away from it.

Regarding the previous argument on the value of teachers, or whatever it was. My wife is a teacher and I know it's not an easy job and easy to have the requirements to do it. That being said, she and I know that the benefits are golden, and are not sustainable in the current conditions.

The question I have for any anti-SB5 folks: can you provide a non-biased report or study that helps your argument, that the public employee bennies are not out of touch? I don't believe pay is the issue, it comes down to the bennies.

Average or whoever posted the Kasich poll, please post a source that is neutral, yours is clearly biased towards Liberals. As Walter mentioned, these polls don't mean didley. I just read a poll that said Obama's support has dropped - AAC, even among Democrats. Does it mean anything to me, NO - partly because I don't believe them, mostly because it wouldn't change what I would think about him. Look at the Vindy poll, last time I voted you or anyone could vote as many times as you would like - how's that for accuracy!

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303JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Average, I know you'll ask for this - and this is a study done by a Liberal newspaper - right from the Office of Collective Bargining:

"Ohio Senate Bill 5 would save approximately $1.3 billion, according to the state Office of Collective Bargaining. A fiscal report released by the office this week estimated the savings the State of Ohio and local governments would have realized had Ohio SB 5 been in effect during 2010."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110226/t...

Average and SOC, please provide some numbers that say there isn't a problem - please, show us all some facts and figures! We're all tired of your rhetoric Average and SOC. Put up some numbers that support your claim - or atleast go back and say "it's for the children".

Of course, SOC still believes there are over 1 million public employees in the State of Ohio, and that Mahoning County is one of the smallest in the State.

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304SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JME,
The numbers of >$1.3 billion all started with an article in the Columbus disbatch by the only reporter J. "Dick" Kasick will talk with. Its figures he created which he has admitted to. So, Show me were it will save me money. It will not, only cost me money and my job since I am one of the older ones left. I don't have a problem paying more for my insurance (which was happening long before Anti union bill came about). the 360,000 public employees are police, fire and teachers, not the custodian, ODOT worker, secretary, and many other related service workers. SB5 is a way to expand charter schools in this state for profit, not advanced educational production!
You will see, Lets hope its not too late.!

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305grand4dad(195 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JME, you state, "The tools to control non-union expenses are already in place, the school Board or whoever the public employer is has to have the ballz to use that tool to control cost." That's correct, the tools are in place to control costs for NOT ONLY the non-union but also the UNION employees, but the school Board/public employer DOES NOT have the ballz to control costs. Why does that mean we need SB5??? Why should the school boards/etc. not get punished FOR NOT DOING THEIR JOBS??? No, instead let's punish the unions!!! This makes no sense. If school boards cannot control their costs, THEY should lose their jobs and benefits. THEY are the ones responsible to the taxpayers and are supposed to be representing us in negotiations. I can't blame the unions for this mess. It is the fault of those in charge and they are not doing their jobs. These boards should not be approving any union contracts unless they can show they can be financially supported and they certainly should not be granting all the bennies/perks they are granting to the non-union people. If he's serious about saving money, let's see Kasich start cutting the bennies/perks for his top aides (non-union) and all the other non-union people before trying to destroy the unions.

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306AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Kasick says,
“I grew up in a blue-collar family in a community dominated by organized labor," he said. "I consider organized labor to be positive"

Really!! Really!!!
What a HYPOCRIT

http://www.plunderbund.com/2010/09/27...

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

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307ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC you say you are a teacher that has received many rewards for your abilities in teaching throughout your career, I applaud you for that, and even concede with egg on my face about the comment while he was campaigning, remember politicians say a lot of things while campaigning to rile up the electorate and ultimately get votes, but your disrespect for somebody such as Governor Kasich by your repeated name calling and I quote you "J. "Dick" Kasick", you cannot even spell his name correctly, takes back any and all accomplishments by you as a teacher, you of all peoples should know how important respect is in the grand order of society, so your example shows that you my friend are not qualified to teach any child because you just may show your disrespect for authority figures to your students and they will only turn around and do the same, possibly becoming just like those two teenagers that shot the other teenager on th esouthside last week.

SOC you should be ashamed of yourself for that show of behavior, but I know you won't because this was never about the KID's with you, this was always about your own self preservation. You have always felt that I earned it and nobody is going to take it way from me. That is what you all talk about at the union meetings now don't you, it is one big rah rah about what is mine stays mine or we will strike till we get what is mine.

AAC You and SOC are the "Hypocrite" the unions have never done one thing that was in the favor of the taxpayers, there only reason for being is too enrich the rank and file to well beyond there abilities. I rest my case.

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308AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Ytown,

You are correct. Unions were created to protect the workers. The unions job is NOT to look out for taxpayers(you and I). Sure unions should not run Govt/Business into the ground. I have said many times unions have pushed too far, but unions main objective is to protect the WORKERS. So according to you, unions must be doing their job. They appreciate your support. : )

Ytown, did you find the numerous articles about kasich wanting to slam the teachers union?
http://starbeacon.com/local/x34370139...

http://www.plunderbund.com/2010/09/27...

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live

And to please you, these are not wiki reports. These were not just made up, or overly exaggerated, as you had said or hoped.

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309SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Ytown1,
You are right its about the kids for all my union brothers and sisters. Now for my miss-pelling and as you say lack of respect. I give what I recieve. The Governor has disrespected every public employee , especially when, he called an officer of the law, an idiot for giving him a ticket for speeding. He must have felt he was above the law.
J stands for John; "DICK" is short for Richard (IE its what his close friends call him) ; KA_SICK is what he is (SIR Name).
Ytown1 . I was a union president of a local union at one time. I was the person that increased teachers contributions to health care from 1% to 10 percent. We have taken pay freezes often. However, each time we saved the district money, central office personnel (NON-union workers) got at least 10% pay increases. You are barking up the wrong tree. The BOE everywhere will do what they have to do to screw teachers. SB5 makes it easier.
Perhaps SB5 is( in fact it is) record number of public employees are retiring this year. Why would someone want to help someone on welfare when they make out better than the person working full time?

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310streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

Finally you reveal your background - that of a former union president.

Shame on you for conveniently hiding this essential fact - during all your diatribes!

All your arguments are colored, not by the fact that you are a teacher, but because you are a former union thug.

Shame on you for taking advantage of your school system.

The pillaging is over, my friend!

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311ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC explain to me how it is about the KIDS, your actions and beliefs as you have stated over and over again, tells me exactly the opposite.

It has always been my belief that if you are the one in an authoritative position, which you are, there are students you influence everyday you are with them, and I do know many teachers that let their moral and political compass dictate the daily class discussions, which unfairly influences young and impressionable minds, should know better and rise above the personal feelings and do the job they were hired for and lead by example not by how they act.

So in short you have to be the bigger person and show respect first and you will get what you give. Did you ever just think that the Governor just may have had a teachers or a teachers union representative show him a great deal of disrespect and now he is just giving back what he was given first? Just saying, the person who takes the high road will always be the winner in the end, so maybe you could be the first by at least saying or quoting the Governors name correctly, that could be a start wouldn't you think?

SOC as far as what the central office does is important, maybe you as a union should educate the taxpayers of this and ask them to make changes in either the BOE and the superintendents to correct this injustice, if what you say is actually true, which is why I have always stated in my comments concerning the Boardman Townships situation, that all of the fluff in the contracts is being done behind the scenes so as to not rile up the electorate, especially when it is not a popular thing to be giving out raises is when all of the items were given out during this collective bargaining time period. The same items that no one ever would have become so expensive and hard to pay for. Then these same items are given to the people that are negotiating the contracts? I am not saying anything was done in malice, they just suggested that maybe now instead of a raise in the times of recession, that the taxpayers pick up a little more of this and that. Now these little this-es and that's are expensive and are unsustainable. The taxpayer is a lot wiser thanks to the internet, and they just cannot afford to pay for their this-es and that's and the unions too, it is that plain and simple, so you have a good day and think about some of the things I have brought up. As you can see I did my dead level best to give you some respect, now go and give some yourself.

We are not the boogy man and are not going to lead the teachers and other public people into poverty as long as you do not do the same.

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312SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Why did collective bargaining come about? TO SAVE THE TAXPAPER HUGE SOMES OF MONEY in court costs. That is what you want, the have it. I can find a job in the private sector make twice to three times tutoring students that don't learn in the charter school system that will take over this once fine state.
Ytown1 , do you know that there are 575 teachers in the Youngstown city schools. Yet there are over two hundred central office personnel. Yea right, They have important jobs, don't they when the district is little over 6,000 students. Central office salaries are more then the teachers salaries combined, but they are important. Teachers aren't, are they?
Kasick has been compared to Hitler. Both do what they can to do away with the opposition.
Answer this, How much harm will be done to the economy of Ohio when 2 to three billion dollars will be taken out of the economy within two /three years when teachers, police, fire, and all other support staff see wages cut nearly in half?
Ytown1, those numbers are conservative at best.
Where do I get my figures you ask? lets say the average worker mentioned above earns $50,000 assuming healthcare cut to the employee increases by 10% and wages drop say 10% more Which may unions are seeing in the future( Two years or less) 25% cut or more. But, sticking with my numbers that would be 2.16 billion dollars not spent in ohio. State tax collect will decrease as well meaning more cuts to balance the budget. That is what you are facing.
Hopefully you don't have kids that you have to send them to the charter schools which is all that will be left. You will have to send you chidl(ren) to a tutor like me at $50 per hour in order to get into college. Or, just follow Kasicks plan and your kids will be ready for Walmart.

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313SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Ytown!,
The name calling makes you even smaller as an individual. The BOE made offers to leave healthcare alone with wage increases of 4% per year....some ten years ago. I made our bargaining team ask for 5% raises per year with the employee paying 10% of our healthcare (ten years ago). Thus creating a net loss of 4% per year. But I'm a Union Thug. for having the foresight to see bad times a coming when Bush was elected.
The only Thug in his home that we the taxpapers payed huge sums of money to fort-a-fye to "protect" his family. He's the enemy of us all and your either blind or to stupid to see.
Remember this ohio revised code fact. No teachers contract can have raises in it if the five year forecast shows one dollar of debt in any of the five years. Don't blame the teachers, blame the BOE. It takes two to agree. SB5 takes that away as well. How are you going to get and keep great teachers like myself for 25 or 30,000 a year with 45 to 60,000 in debt from college? answer is your not.
Again I say, I have tenure, SB5 doesn't change that fact and I'm safe. I'm worried about those younger than me. Perhaps, you may have lit the fire for me to get involved again in my local , sate and nation unions to fight for children everywhere this BS is happening

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314ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

What name calling did I put out there? You are reading a different post than I.

What my being civil and asking you to be the same was too much for you? I was giving you more credit than maybe you deserved?

I also never brought up "W" either, what posts are you reading anyway. I was never a fan of him either, the Iraq war was hos own private vendetta, that we as taxpayers will be paying for for generations.

As far as the BOE and the central office, I will repeat my comment there also, "SOC as far as what the central office does is important, maybe you as a union should educate the taxpayers of this and ask them to make changes in either the BOE and the superintendents to correct this injustice", I agreed with you and you still attack me?

You are the educated one, the person who is in charge of our future and all you can do is rant, I also never said anything about cutting wages in half, you are reading too much propaganda being put out there by the big union chiefs. You need to calm down a little and write some coherent posts, you are only regurgitating the same old boogy man scare tactics that you will soon see as nothing like you could imagine.

You fail to realize, that without a strong private sector you will have nothing to worry about where SB5 is concerned, the private sector is what makes up 80-85% of the taxes that pay for the public sector employees, and don't kid yourself if you come back with the comment that the public sector pays taxes too, because you and I both know how long you would last if you were the only ones carrying the tax load, about 6 weeks of the year tops, and you all would be out of a job.

Again if you really cared about the kids you would agree changes need to be made, where we are at is just plain and simply unsustainable. 5% raises on 60-70K to only turn around and increase your contribution a few hundred dollars a year for health insurance does not equate to a pay freeze by the way.

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315ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Now to discuss the Dedutibles,

You never discuss the deductibles, that is what really effects the monthly costs when it comes to health insurance. For all we know there may not be any deductibles, because nobody will discuss that. I say the public should be paying at least 1000 per person deductible or out of pocket first, if not 3000 like most of have had to do to contain the increases every year. the other deductibles are taboo too, office visits $25 specialist $50 prescriptions is another. how about a $40 per month refill for a generic, that is not the name brand drugs, a generic, I know of some who has 4-5 of those a month in maintenance drugs. That is what the private sector is facing, and still paying 1300 to 1500 for a family plan. That is right, I pay the whole thing, not 10% the whole enchilada every monthly, if I don't, I could take a chance on losing my house and business if I would get sick.

SOC you still feel you have it so rough? And I hate to tell you I am not clearing anywhere near the salaries I see on the charts uploaded on Vindy. We do OK but no where near the 85-90K that the Boardman Officers are pulling down with very little going to pay for the extras like we do. Now you can check your ego at the door and try being a little more civil, because I still have not called anyone names and still told the truth.

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316ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC I have read this many times over and I still do not understand how you can get a deficit when you are giving someone with a 5% raise on say a flat 50K per year, and you increase the contribution 9% on around 700-800 per month on a family plan, and I am giving you a large number for 10 years ago?

Lets do a little fuzzy math again, 5% on 50K = 52, 500 or a $2500 increase.

9% of say $750 per month equals $67.50 increase per month or $810.00

The employee still sees an net increase of $1690.00 per year.

How do you come up with a deficit of 4%?
Just asking for clarity.

Again you do not discuss the deductible being increased to help with staving off increase? That is what happens in the private sector, you have to survive or you are unemployed or out of business. Remember we can only raise prices of our products so much to pay for these increase, before the buying public says we cannot afford you anymore. We make hard decisions because we also have employees who depend on us also, and I hate to tell you we pay more for our employees insurance than you do, a lot more.

SOC, I really have nothing more to say to you tonight, have a good day.

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317SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Ytown1,
A union thug is a name. Sorry to bust your little bbubble

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318SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Facts are fact,
Districts throughout the state have asked for huge cuts in salaries already. One local district wants to reduce the teachers salaries by 20% right now. That district is rated very high on the state report card.
When did it happen? If I don't have something, neither should you. By the way, my wife works on in the private sector. She has better health insurance than I do, so we use hers and not mine saving my district $10 G's easy.
!0% of our wages are paid for the healthcare, not 10% of the cost my friend. Thus, 50,000 dollar salary minus 10 percent is $5,000 per year. and your right my math was off. Its a 5% net loss with on increase of only $2500 dollars . recap....5000 -2500= 2500 loss. which is actually slightly more because with an increase in salary comes higher amounts paid for healthcare coverage.
Again we pay 10% of our wages not the cost as you do in the private sector. Perhaps we should push for you to pay a percentage of you wages since it will be higher than a percentage of the coverage cost. We pay just short of $200 a month for healthcare. Somehow you think I am complaining and I am not. My complaint is with the propaganda the public is believing in the media. Also the media for printing it without investigating the facts.

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319streetsmartt(127 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

I hope you get involved and run the state-wide anti-SB5 campaign. Then it will surely fail.

It will fail because you union "bosses" use intimidation and class war envy to argue your points. "The man needs put down."

Well, we taxpayers are "the man," brother. And "the man" is tired of having his pockets picked to fund your glorious perks and bennies.

Go ahead, be smug about your tenure, union boss! The union movement in the public sector is dying.

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320SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

That's why the biggest fight is coming from the AFL-CIO against SB5. Currently, I am part of the middle class. If SB5 passes. More of you tax dollars will go to support younger teachers like myself. I hope I am wrong, but everyone that votes for SB5 will see everything I've said to be true. I fight the fight for the younger teachers and any future teachers.
Everything I use in my stance are facts found in the ohio revised code. Its available for you to read on-line anytime.
In 1984, why did the (court costs to the state of Ohio drop? They weren't being sued over unfair labor issues in the public sector. Court costs are much higher today than 30 years ago.

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321JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"10% of our wages are paid for the healthcare, not 10% of the cost my friend....
...Again we pay 10% of our wages not the cost as you do in the private sector"

SOC, you are completely full of bs, you pay 10% of the premium. If it was based off of salary, then different salary levels would be paying different amounts for health care, my friend. And when employers negotiate with health insurance providiers, all employees are getting the same rates/premiums (depending on single, family, etc.)
So, that would mean the more seniority a teacher has, the more that person would have to fork out for health insurance. Your union must be really be screwed up if your screwing the veteran teachers this way.

The private sector pays % of the monthly premium, which for me would be around 17% of the premium. My wife is a teacher also, her cost is approximately 10% of the premium - Not based on pay! Nobody's is based on pay. Her out-of-pocket health insurance costs are much less than mine - and our salary's are similar. According to your lie, her teacher health insurance out-of-pocket costs should be much higher than mine.

This is another good one:

"when teachers, police, fire, and all other support staff see wages cut nearly in half?"

Show us in SB5 where any pay is cut, let alone in half? Can you honestly believe that wages would be "cut nearly in half"? If so, nobody would be willing to do those jobs, then economics would kick in naturally raising salaries higher until it reaches a point to attract workers.

Your definitley a teacher because you have no idea how the real world works - Or your prefer to make things up and flat out lie.

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322JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"We pay just short of $200 a month for healthcare"

"10% of our wages are paid for the healthcare,"

SOC, so your wages are approximate $24,000 per year ($2,000/month, health care 10% of that for $200).

You mentioned that "10 years ago" when you were union president that you negotiated the higher health care cost (10%)

So, verify for us all. You have been teacher for at least 10 years and your salary is only $24,000 per year? That is far from believable.

My wife has taught for 27 years - family health insurance cost is approximately $120/month. Her salary is much higher than $24,000 per year. According to your statement that teachers health insurance is cost is based off of salary, my wife's insurance cost should be way higher than yours - unless you are a really bad negotiator.

SOC my friend, again what you say is fictional.

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323ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC where did I EVER say a Union THUG?

Nowhere in recent memory have I used any derogatory name calling? Though you and your rough talk have gone on and on and on.

My goal was to keep it civil, you my friend have done everything you could do to alienate the taxpayer from this discussion? Why you ask, I really do not know, maybe it is a respect thing with you?

Sorry, No bbubble to bust.

As far as the 10% of the gross, I would agree with JME I just won't retype it again just to ask the same questions.

What about those deductibles? No comment on those, so apparently they must be "0" or so low we wouldn't want to disclose it.

Again, you see the unions answer to everything is strike or sue, what ever happened to just plain ol' negotiating, IE Talking things out?

We are all adults you know. You would think?

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324SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JME,
Its based on a salary of 50,000. Thus 5000 a year is paid for healthcare equaling out to about 200 dollars per pay every two weeks. And yes, I make slightly less than $50,000. Also required to return to school for hours paid out of my pocket because the district doesn't pay for it anymore.
JME, you catch on quick. Older teachers(people) use more healthcare services as one ages. So, they do pay more for the same coverage as a younger teacher would. Its the trend in public healthcare coverage.

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325JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"Older teachers(people) use more healthcare services as one ages"

You would think, but not necessarily. Keep in mind the the number of doctor and hospital visits that kids require when they are younger - this may make it more expensive (to insure) for a young family as opposed to a couple of empty nester's.

As far as a trend, it's just not believable that your health insurance costs is a % of income - I'm not asking you to list any personal info, but please provide a reference to this as a growing trend for public employee healthcare coverage. There would be no motivation for any employee to stay in the public sector as they age. Now if your teacher's union negotiated such a thing, you should ask for your union dues back. Maybe your not aware of it, but you're paying a % of the premium.

As Ytown1 mentioned, very low or zero deductable.

If it's the trend, why does SB5 specifically mention premium?

The key word below: "Premium"

"State employees pay about 15percent of their health-insurance premiums, while local government employees, according to the State Employment Relations Board, pay about 7 percent. The School Employee Health Care Board found that school employees paid an average of 9 to 10 percent."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

One other question. If you negotiated a contract 10 years ago that would mean a 5% loss of income for teachers, how would you get the rank-and-file to ratify such an agreement? Remember, this was at a time when there was no scrutiny over the public sector employee compensation. Back in 2001, the unions (public or private) would just cry "strike" if they were offered a contract that would require giving up 5% $.

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326JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I wonder if Canfield/Poland teachers will offer to pay 15% to get a levy passed.

From today's Dispatch (Columbus suburb, Pickerington School District):

"Nearly half of the savings is from teachers picking up more of their health-insurance costs. They had been paying 10 percent. The new contract requires them to pay 15 percent."

"The agreement will save the district more than $6.25 million over the 2011-12 and 2012-13 school years, board members and union President Carla Fultz said."

"Fultz said she hoped the concessions taken by teachers in the new contract will help district officials win voter approval of a 5.5-mill property-tax levy that is on the Aug. 2 special-election ballot."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/...

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327ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Which story is it SOC Quote from (post 326)
"We pay just short of $200 a month for healthcare"

or is it from (post 332)
"Thus 5000 a year is paid for healthcare equaling out to about 200 dollars per pay every two weeks."

I am confused, which is it per pay or per month, 10% of gross or 10% of the premium?

Still no response on the deductibles? Must be "0" as I thought. Nothing to go to the doctors office, nothing to pay at Walgreen's or Rite Aid,
and nothing to pay at the emergency room?

How about the out of pocket the rest of us have to cover, like when you need to have a surgery or a hospital stay, they want that 3,000 to 5,000 from you first then they go to the insurance company, and don't tell them you do not have it, they will totally screw with your credit score.

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328SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Its per pay...Per pay...10% 0f ones salary is paid to healthcare . Deductibles vary from 250 per person for office visits to 50 for major medical along with 20% co-pay. Its in line with the private sector. This last year we switched to my wife's ins. who works in the private sector.

You folks are unbelievable

Sorry Ytown1 for the mistake. However, as a teacher, the state of Ohio reqiures college courses to be completed in order to maintain the right to teach. I just happened to be multi-tasking in class work, watching an infant and trying to enlighten the misguided few on this blog. Sorry, I hope you understand

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329Brit(18 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

REALITY CHECK!!!
This isn't the 60s or 70's anymore. Kids nowadays many times take guns and knives to school. They are a threat to teachers and it is not unusual to see in the news about kids killing and threatening classmates, teachers, principals, even their own parents! People think teachers don't deserve what they have gone to college and worked hard to earn?

Try being a teacher and you have to babysit 20-30 kids for eight hours a day, 5 days straight and on top of it you have to teach them, prepare lesson plans, keep grade books, have conferences, make bulletin boards, organize the room, grade papers, meet with parents, write notes to parents, prepare tests, run off copies of teaching tools, deal with kids that are trouble and deal with parents who are in some cases as immature and delinquent as their kids, and far more!!!!! These teachers work before school, after kids go home, and at nights and on weekends on school related stuff. I know! I am married to a teacher. The pressure is unbelievable what they go through. They don't have enough time in the day. They work 60 hour weeks if you include what they do at home for school. They use their own money to buy kids supplies without reimbursement. Many parents won't buy their own kids supplies. Teachers pay huge amounts out of their pay check for health care. Teachers are invested with one of the most important jobs in our country and they are over worked, under paid, under appreciated and vilified by ignorant people who obviously need an education of their own. These people have gone to college and are "professionals". You know what the lowest paying professional job is for college grads? Teachers rank second behind social workers. They deserve respect and support not foolish attacks. If not for teachers there would be more ignorance and it is education that creates success for people and our country. Education and teachers should be supported! The alternative is ignorance.
Teachers deserve far more pay, credit, and benefits than they have.

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330ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Brit, your passion is admirable though misguided, there has been many audits and studies done to affirm that the benefits will be the straw that broke the camels back, pensions are severely underfunded, health care and it's spiraling out of control costs are unsustainable, this is not a personal issue, this about basic economics, you can wish that everyone is going to become millionaires and live happily ever after all you want, but the stark truth is the taxpayers who are suffering a far worse catastrophe than any teacher or public worker will ever experience even if the worst case scenario put out by the boogey man talking heads of the unions can come up with.

Se Brit you have taken the person out of the taxpayer and now it is time you need to take the person out of the teacher and face the facts, Sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you, but the facts will win out every time.

Have you not seen the news lately, public worker layoffs in other states are happening right now, would you wish that we lay off our public workers or let all feel a little of the pain now? A little give backs and a little more paying toward health care and pensions will save jobs. That is a promise.

This is not about disrespecting teachers as far as I am concerned, this is about what we can and what we cannot afford. Check out California, the writing is on the wall unless we can make changes now not later.

And I also take your vilified by ignorant people personally, maybe I should not but I did anyway, I have been preaching to SOC about being civil, and apparently you have missed that message, so would you please work on that.

Your opening comment about the 60'ds and 70's was ill conceived, because we all live in the same society as these teachers and experience the same public individuals everyday that they do and experience the same threats to our safety as they do, as long as we put ourselves in those kinds of places, and some of us due to the work we do have no choice but go to those places or quit or jobs. You are not alone when it comes to that situation.

So I guess I have answered your problems as far as that goes, if you do not wish to put yourselves into that type of situation you always have that choice, you may quit and go do another profession, people do it everyday, it is not the end of the word, unless the benefits are so good that you cannot see anyway out if you are to receive that gold at the end of the rainbow so to speak?

I have a news flash for you, we as taxpayers deserve far more pay, credit, and benefits than they have. Se it goes both ways, we are not the enemy you portray.

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331SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Ytown1,
Read the posts here. Its an attack on teachers, who produce successful individuals in society that go out for the most part and earn a living. However, people forget that. If you want what is going on around the world, do away with unions and labor laws will soon follow. Greece, show us how it is done. We are watching!

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332AnotherAverageCitizen(1174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
I see why some don't like teachers very much. The teachers did not teach some good math.

$200 a pay 2 times a month equals $4,800
SOC makes less then $50,000. $4,800 of less then $50,000 is about 10% of his salary.

Brit, Very nice civil letter. I as a taxpayer am very supportive of teachers.

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333JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

AAC,

It's rather obvious that you still don't pay attention to what your reading - try reading all of the post, not selectively. Or is this the comprehension problem that you have? Re-read post #330 where I quoted SOC - the quote is also listed below to help you if it's too difficult. Your Reading/English teacher should be disappointed in his/her teaching ability.

SOC, what do you pay a month?

SOC, from your post, #236:

"We pay just short of $200 a month for healthcare."

$200 x 12 = $2400

First you said $200 monthly, now you're claiming it's bi-weekly? Try getting your story straight before posting.

You keep contradicting yourself and continue to damage your credibility. I'm sure you'll use the "typo" excuse.

SOC, if you paid health care based on salary, what happens if the BOE negotiates a lower premium with the health insurance coverage? The school district would pocket the savings while you continue to face increased costs with increased salary. Not very good negotiating on the unions part.

The health care costs are based on a % of the insurance premiums:

"State employees pay about 15percent of their health-insurance premiums,....The School Employee Health Care Board found that school employees paid an average of 9 to 10 percent."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

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334JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Brit,

Your rant is full of inaccurracies.

An Ohio public-school teacher’s average salary is approximately $57,000 for 182 official working days - hardly underpaid.

Insurance costs average 9-10% of premiums - the private sector average is over 20%

Let's not forget about the accumulative sick days, and getting paid for unused time.

60 hours/week? Please. My wife is a teacher and it's nowhere near that - try not to exaggerate. For any professional there are no set working hours - you do what you have to to get things done. So lets not cry about grading papers at home and such. The majority of schools have built in prep periods, and I would like to point out that conferences in the evenings are in exchange for a working day off - the most common one seen is the conferences in the evening, two days before Thanksgiving - in exchange for having the day before Thanksgiving off.

Nobody is saying it's not easy to teach, but the bennies are bankrupting the State and are not in line with what the private sector receives. As health insurance premiums skyrocket upward, the public sector employees are essentially receiving bigger raises by maintaining the status quo for health insurance. The employer cannot survive by continually picking up the tab.

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335walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
Please...If the State of Ohio requires you to take continuing education classes in college, take a course in basic mathematics and statistics. JME is totally correct about deductions for healthcare. It is a percentage of the premium, not a precentage of salary. You may try to use an average salary of $50,000 as an individual basis of comparison, but it only holds for that individual amount. Premiums would be fixed by the cost of the plan and whether it is individual or family. A cafeteria worker making $30,000 would therefore pay a higher percentage of their pay to cover their portion of premium payments than a teacher making $70,000. And, if you think that Greece is going to show the world how it's done, then you really don't know what is happening in their economy. But, if we keep giving public employees 10% increases in wages and benefits every 3 years, it will be coming. The golden goose has crapped out!

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336SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Walt.... Greece comment was workers protesting just like the Greek people are. We are heading to a revolt in this country with all the attacks on the working class. You sorry to bust your bubble, but we do pay a percentage of our wages to healthcare insurance, not like the private sector that pays on the cost itself. I know Youngstown city does, Why not call and find out I speak the truth. Or keep you head in the sand and believe the republican anti-worker campaign that many sheep here believe to be the gospel.
and your 30,000 V. 70,000, isn't that the Republican tax system revised under Bush? Don't they call it the Bush tax cuts....for you is sounds like.
My biggest point is we are and have been giving back, Yet management in Niles goes and gives a huge raise to the new Supt., that will not be effected by SB5 as every teacher, police officer, fire fighter, sect. , caf. worker, and the list goes on, and on, and on, and on.....
JME, sorry but I explained, crying baby, grad work and blogging to enlighten the masses with the truth, Not Kasick's miss truths

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337JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
Your really spinning out of control in all directions, not making sense, while trying to change the subject.
To remind you, Obama signed off to extend the tax cuts. Why don't you just throw in the liberal rhetoric about the big business not paying their share of taxes.

Considering public sector employees make up approximately 6% of Ohio's workforce, they don't represent the working class.
My wife is a public sector employee - that being a teacher. Her and others health care cost are a % of the premium, not salary.

You didn't answer the question, is it $200/month or $200/pay? Your all over the place with your facts and figures - one of your post contradicts another.

Also, what would happen if the school district negotiates a lower premium with the insurance provider? Under your thinking, the schoold district would pocket the savings, not the employees - why would anyone negotiate such a terrible deal. I thought the union based everything off of seniority. Your method (pay % of salary) screws teachers as they add years of service and increasing pay.

Let me repost this since you selectively read - from The School Employee Health Care Board (note that the word "Premium" applies to the whole paragraph):

"State employees pay about 15percent of their health-insurance premiums,....The School Employee Health Care Board found that school employees paid an average of 9 to 10 percent."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

You could just admit that you were full of bs back in your post #321, then tried to cover your tracks after ytown1 proved it in post #324.

OT, I completed grad school while working, unlike most teachers who do it in the summer when they're off.

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338JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"enlighten the masses with the truth,"

SOC, like over "1 million public sector workers" affected by SB5?

Or how small Mahoning county is?

You haven't been able to reference one fact that you've thrown out.

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339walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
If the health insurance premium is based on a percentage of your salary or wage, it would be the first one of which that I had ever heard. I would want my union dues refunded for that deal. Or, are you confusing the pension payments?

BTW, like JME, I completed grad school in engineering while working a full time engineering job, including completing a thesis.

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340SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Great for you. Hope you didn't go to school with the boys that built bridges in Minnesota.
JME you the one out of control, stop drinking Kasicks coolaide and listen to the truth.

Don't believe me. I know of several other districts that pay a % of salary to healthcare. Youngstown is one of them. And that only the teachers not anyone else covered under different unions like other support staff. Don't believe me, that's your right. It will at some point all come out in the wash.

FACTS ARE FACTS. JME you chose not to see them, just the propaganda.
And no Walt. Heatlhcare costs I pay are the same as I pay into MY pension

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341JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"you chose not to see them,"

SOC, I can see the facts on my wifes pay stub, it's not a % of income.

Let's see some actual links/references to verify your facts. As I mentioned before, you haven't backed up anything you have said - just the typical liberal rhetoric.

You chose not to see these facts:

"State employees pay about 15percent of their health-insurance premiums,....The School Employee Health Care Board found that school employees paid an average of 9 to 10 percent."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

Here's an interested read from a retired Ohio teacher. SOC and ACC, since you choose not to read things in their entirety, I have selected some of the text for your viewing pleasure. I concur with what the retired teacher says about high school teachers and the daily work schedule - since my spouse is one of them:

“THE TRUTH ABOUT TEACHING”

“The average teacher has no idea what the hell is going on in the political world.”

“So let me help you with the math. In Ohio, a teacher was contracted for 183 days…minus 15 sick days…minus 3 personal days…minus 3 professional days…minus, (if old man winter cooperated) 5 calamity days…157 days of work. (Plus a substitute must be hired for each day).”

“One of my buddies (Bill) who started with me back in 1975 is still working at one of the more affluent schools in Central Ohio and his 2010 contract paid him $104,000 for teaching physical education….Bill makes $104,000 for 183 days of work…$585.31 per day. Using the scenario from above citing all of the “days off” the contract allows, the 15 sick days, 3 personal days, 3 professional days, and 5 calamity days adds up to 26 days of pay for which he did not work…$585.31 per day equals $15,218 for doing nothing.”… my buddy Bill has…those 5 snow days paid him $2926.55 for sleeping in. Gotta love that collective bargaining…getting paid not to work.”

“…high school teachers are far more pampered. The average school day is 7 ½ hours, usually consisting of 9 class periods, each 50 minutes in length. Most contracts call for a teacher work load of 6 classes, one lunch period, one study hall duty, and one conference (free) period. In essence, 7 periods of class at 50 min. each totals 5.8 hours working directly with students…Bill makes $108.86 for each hour in the classroom.”

“I wonder who is on the hook for the pension. Ohio’s State Teacher Retirement System is currently only 46% funded.”

“This cannot go on. It is not about the teachers, and as they have shown us in Wisconsin, it certainly isn’t about the children. It is all about the math…”

http://www.newswithviews.com/Daubenmi...

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342JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"Don't believe me. I know of several other districts that pay a % of salary to healthcare"

As Walt mentioned, that is one bad deal for the teachers if their own union negotiated that for them.

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343JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,

You didn't answer the question, is it $200/month or $200/pay?

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344SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JME, read #336 I answered this question before you answered it. 26 pays with one holiday.....that mean 25 pays at nearly 200 a pop for 5,000 per year.

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345JME(801 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC, your post #326:

"We pay just short of $200 a month for healthcare."

Now you want to retract that because the numbers for % of pay don't add up - no one could have been that stupid to negotiate health care cost as a % of income.

It's % of premium (cost)

"State employees pay about 15percent of their health-insurance premiums,....The School Employee Health Care Board found that school employees paid an average of 9 to 10 percent."

http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/...

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346walter_sobchak(1858 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

SOC,
That's a good shot at us engineers but I don't believe I went to school with the designers of the I-35 bridge since it was designed prior to me receiving my degrees. Very few engineering failures are catastrophic and cause loss of life but, when they occur, they are on the national newscasts and are investigated thoroughly. We are held accountable and engineers have no problem with those responsible suffering the consequences, such as losing their licenses to practice. Now, when a teacher is incompetent, we are told that we can't evaluate their performance and abilities to teach students, even though they may be causing harm to the public. Their students just get passed on and they fall through the cracks.

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347SAVEOURCOUNTRY(467 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Education isn't like the business world. A car made at Lordstown by GM will be the same no matter where its made or the plant underpreforming is in trouble. However, It maybe unbeleiveable to you. Every person (child included are totally different). Some come from weatlhy backgrounds were education is valued, others have special needs that will not allow them the ability to even come close to functioning have way normally in society.

Once we are like a company like GM with the exact raw materials. School by school, district by district. Then hold us accountable the same way.

Walt, what would happen if you only showed up 15 or 20 days a year for work? Teachers are held accountable for those type of students. Due to cut after cut after cut, Districts like Youngstown keep those students on the books for funding reasons. Yet the teacher is question for high failure rates. Friends have told me that they have similar success rates for those who show up as anywhere else around here. However, those who (students) don't show for work (IE SChool) is equal to those who do? Yet hold the teacher accountable for those failures....If thats what you believe. No one should ever be fired for not going to work then, Right? Or you can't hold teachers completely accountable

No teacher is that fearful to be held accountable, Just police the other 2/3's of the educational process; parents and students. However, show me a judge that would have the balls to do the right thing, you won't find it anywhere.

That would be like holding you personally respossible for the I-35 bridge failure becuase you disgined the bridge 50 years ago and inspectors failed to do there job. That's what merit pay does!

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348TchrsRock(3 comments)posted 3 years ago

Streetsmartt:
I'm offended that you honestly believe that teachers are only interested in raises. Give me a break. I've taught only 6 years and have never had a raise. I have made my steps which provided a massive 1% increase to my $27,900.00 starting salary. Now that I have my master's degree, I'm making a huge $36,500 this year. Wow. I guess I should give back 10% to the taxpayers. I am definitely making too much to educate their kids. I think I will call up my superintendent and tell him to throw my salary back to $20,000 per year - what teachers made back in the 1980s. Hey....wait....no...I'll tell the BOE to get rid of all of the educated teachers and to hire kids right out of high school. They'll be closer in age to the students, they can party with them, they can facebook together, and gossip about the hideous outfit that the girl sitting across from the hottest boy in the school was wearing. Because we all KNOW that teachers don't really teach. Anyone can teach. That's why kids can't read fluently in elementary school when their parents didn't take the time to read to them as babies. Oh, wait. I guess I can't blame the parents. They are taxpayers. The taxpayer is always right. So fire all of the teachers. Screw it. Let's not have public schools at all. Let's make it pay to attend school just like private schools. If people don't want to pay for school, they shouldn't have to. Since anyone with a pulse can teach, let those people teach their own kids, pass the ACT, OGT, SAT etc. with high scores. Problem solved. No more burden on the hardworking taxpayers....because we all know that they will use their property taxes to pay for private schooling or home schooling....reading to their kids, teaching them math, science, history, and social skills. Streetsmartt - you are on to something. I will give you my entire salary since I am so unworthy of a respectable wage, my education and experience aren't worth anything, and I really don't contribute to anyone or anything in society.
By the way: this isn't "whining" it's called IRONY and SARCASM. But you know all about that since your posts about teachers seethe with both.

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