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Trustees must make the case for a police levy in Boardman



Published: Sun, January 30, 2011 @ 12:00 a.m.

We know there are at least 16,516 Boardman residents who care about the township’s finances, and yet, despite ample notice, only 40 showed up Monday to witness a vote by the trustees to place a 3.85-mill, five-year police levy on the May primary ballot. Trustees Larry Moliterno, Brad Calhoun and Tom Costello had hoped to generate public interest in the issue by preparing four options for consideration.

But because of the looming deadline for filing a resolution with the board of elections to get the levy on the ballot, they had to have a first reading Monday.

Moliterno, Calhoun and Costello concluded that asking voters to support the police department with $3.7 million in revenue annually would have the best chance of passage. The issue lost by less than 3 percent — 8,473 against, 8,043 for — in the November general election.

But passage in May isn’t assured, as evidenced by the diverse opinions of those who did attend Monday’s meeting.

Proponents contend that public safety must be a priority in the township, given the increase in crime. Last summer, residents of the northern section of the township expressed concern about criminal activity in the Forest Glen and Newport Glen historic areas. Police Chief Jack Nichols issued a list of activities planned by the police and township to address residents’ concerns.

Opponents argue that this is not the time for government to be seeking a tax increase. As Mike McCartney of Tara Court told the trustees: “Everybody’s on a fixed income. If you’re working, you’re on a fixed income. I think we can’t afford these taxes anymore.”

Between now and the May primary, Boardman government officials will have to win over residents who voted against the levy in November and others whose personal finances are even more tenuous now than then.

In order to credibly make the argument that Boardman’s well-being requires sacrifice from all, Moliterno, Calhoun and Costello will have to show what belt-tightening has taken place in government, and what concessions the employees have made or intend to make.

As for the police department, it will be up to Chief Nichols and the rest of the force to make the case that the township is at risk with 45 sworn officers and that the addition of 10 to the force in five years will give residents the level of protection they deserve.

More with less

By any measure, the issue on the May ballot will be a tough sell. It’s not only that residents are stretched thin financially, as are most Americans, but the idea of government doing more with less is gaining a lot of support.

Governments at all levels are under pressure to deal with their fiscal problems without asking taxpayers for more money.

Boardman Township trustees must know that the only hope they have of passing the levy is to take their case to the people, and open their books for public inspection.


Comments

1davidjohn(144 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

how about being located next to youngstown

case made

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2UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Vote NO. The levy is not needed. It's time for cuts to the cadillkac healthcare and golden pensions for the Boardman police. Most Boardmanites can no longer afford the luxury of higher property taxes. Time for smaller government. Vote NO!

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3author50(1121 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Time for Metro Government. Think how many cops we would have then!

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4nodice(68 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Boardman's "golden pensions" are no different than anyone else's in law enforcement...get real. If you were paying attention, you would have known that the pension system has undergone a series of changes over the past 5-6 years that have reduced benefits and increased the cost to the retiree upon retirement. You do realize that these officers PAY into the retirement system don't you?

A metro PD is a bad idea for all the suburbs. Boardman is one of the only PD's that provides certain services...such as crime scene technicians, narctotis unit, traffic, etc....these resources would obviously be sucked into the city.

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5Millie(192 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Instead of picking on the police have the trustees list every reduction they have made in the past year by item and amount saved. The retirement of employees should not be on the list as an example of the effort they made to save money. What are the real savings township wide? Otherwise it will be a continuation of needing money every 5 years. Restructure employee jobs like flex time for road department so there is no overtime for snow events or price outsourcing where it wil work. Recruit volunteers to help staff answering phones, checking zoning violations, doing paperwork and other clerical or management functions. Do more with less and quit telling us how bad the crime is, and send Walmart a bill for police cruisers that respond to situations there and get rid of the buses.

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6fd6636(255 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

u get what u pay for! union forever would be all for cuts and reducing pd, and would be the FIRST to bitch if he needed pd, and they were delayed, or didn't show at all. Ecomony is bad, i agree. cuts should take place, agreed also. not ALL public workers get the perks like the union jerk claims. union firefighters in yfd took 2 yr, pay freeze, new employees hired for way less to help city ecomony. also in warren. why isn't union jerk complementing this?? there are public employees, and yes, UNION bodies who recognize the ecomony the was it actually is, and are giving back to help, so please, STOP, and pick on the inner city grocery store, or some blacks, or what ever you doo all day at your computer, spewing your negitive, ill concived ideas about how you would like things to be, and how they actually are. haven't heard a constructive idea from u yet. sounds like some guy who tried to get a public job at some time, and failed, so sour grapes are in order!!!!

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7candystriper(575 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

pay straight time like other states in trouble are doing...

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8fd6636(255 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

repeaters, you are correct, the "happy days" are over. but also there is a different element in society that you did not have during the happy days era, and that is wide spread crime spawned by this ecomony which is now affecting the boardman area. so, what should we do about it? will less police curtail the problem at hand? no. the people are taxed out. understood, so am I, but the police are the thin line between stability in society, and the wild west lawlessness. look at Camden nj. is it boardman? no. but, 1/2 police force laid off. criminals rejoice, had tee shirts made claiming that "they" won. I'll have to pay so "they" dont win, and make me have to move again. union forever, don't even bother commenting, you dont make sense.

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9UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

fd6636 - What don't you understand about making government smaller? As my HERO of public employee modelled efficiency government says these days:

“We can no longer live in a society where the public employees are the haves and taxpayers who foot the bills are the have-nots.”

Scott Walker (R) - Governor of Wisconsin

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10Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Vote yes !!!! We need all the police we can get out here. You say we can not afford it ? We can not afford not to . We live here our homes are here. The crime is just getting to bad to go out at night The only thing will help is police on the streets with guns and clubs
PLEASE VOTE YES

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11fd6636(255 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I stated before: some public employees are "getting it", and trying to help with our bad ecomonic times. should govt be smaller? sure. but, you tend to "lop" all public employees into the same catagorie: gold diggers who want "cadillac" pensions. not true. 1. I earned every penny of my pension comming to me. I go to work, do the best for my customers, the public, not taking advantage of the system that some more than others abuse. 2. pay a percentage of my health care that so many such as yourself think i get for free.3. was lucky enough to "earn my job in public service thru hard work and determination, not handed to me cause i knew someone, or was owed a favor. just wanted you to know that not all of us are scum sucking leaches of the public as you portray us to be. now, with that said, you state you want smaller govt. maybe your correct that cuts have to come. repeater states that happy days are over and he is right. you need to look at the politicians that you crave for who are going to fix the public employees. do you thing any savings in cutting govt. is going to relive the tax payer? no. the money saved by cutting some facets of govt. will free up back door deals for politicians special interests, and you know what? the taxpayer wont ever know about this!
this has gone on for decades. look at the insurance industry. oil companies. big buisness. they didnt get that big just on their merits alone. they had political help. remember the gas prices above $4.00? what did big buisness tell govt? sorry. cant do nothing bout it. so who do we go after. those who serve u thru gov tjobs. you want smaller govt.? ok. remember, be careful what u wish for. as for public employees not getting it? trust me, we do!!

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12apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

10 percent cuts for the employees would free up the necessary monies to hire more police. No taxes are necessary. We can't afford to pay police $141,000 a year (Nichols) and an average of $90,000 a year (all of them) plus benefits of another 30%. The audit says so. They've done nothing but accept pay freezes which aren't really pay freezes since they get step increases. Kotheimer doesn't know what he is talking about. Regionalization is the future.

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13apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Don't believe the liars Calhoun, Costello, and Moliterno. Costello spent like a drunken sailor last time he was in office. Rubber stamped every contract he and Mancini thought was "fair". They weren't "fair" for the taxpayers.

See those salaries here:

http://www.boardmanfacts.com/uploads/...

Watch this video. Helps explain the idiotic wages and benefits the police are getting everywhere.

Video:
NJ Governor Chris Christie speaks about police salaries, pensions and layoffs, during a Town Hall Meeting in Middletown. STAFF VIDEO BY THOMAS P. COSTELLO

http://link.brightcove.com/services/p...

Crime isn't higher people. That's yet another lie.

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14apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Kotheimer is a former cop double dipping as zoning inspector. Any surprise he is for the police levy?

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15apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Of course Kotheimer wants a new revenue stream to fund his early retirement and double dipping. It also funds $141,000 for Nichols in 2010, some of Dorman's DROP windfall, and all of the sweet pensions and health care that these people get. I doubt too many commoners are able to retire at 50 with pensions 2/3 of the average of their last 3 years of employment. Notice how they pad that with overtime in those last 3 years. Anyone who buys the hype that crime is rampant (it isn't) and adding 10 cops is going to make Boardman safer probably also bought the lie that CALEA and the substation would do the same.

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16apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Notice this:

Kotheimer says

The disadvantage for a Metro PD would be, after all the crime analysis and mapping is done... all the resources will be deployed...you guessed it...probably leaving the outlying areas with less manpower than before...so who wins?

Yet, they are selling this levy as sorely needed to combat a crime epidemic. Well, if Boardman is truly having a crime epidemic, the resources would be allocated for Boardman. They can't even get their stories straight. Crime in Boardman is the same as it always was. No murders and mostly property crimes targeted to the many retailers.

I suspect over the next few months, we will be hearing the usual scare tactics. They'll sensationalize every crime.

Make the fire department volunteer. We don't need to send out the big truck to every fender bender. It's cost ineffective.

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17apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Boardman cops need to watch this.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/p...

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18apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

That link no longer works because of copyrights.

Here is one that works.

http://www.app.com/article/20110126/N...

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19nodice(68 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Although I have no dog in the fight, I feel compelled to reply to apollo's child-like fetish with Boardman and Kim Kotheimer....

According to apollo's "facts", crime is not up in Boardman. So that would mean that the police in Boardman are doing a good job, since they have lost 20, yes 20 police officers in approximately the past 5 years. Not to mention that the salaries that he embellishes include overtime that can't be avoided i'm sure from the loss of those officers.

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20apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

People like nodice like to throw insults because they can't refute anything factually.

Kothiemer is a microcosm of the problem of government. Retired far earlier than tax payers can with an inflated pension and then gets a sweet gift from Calhoun, another trough job that WAS NOT ADVERTISED. A thank you for telling him about those pesky ratemyteacher ratings that painted Calhoun as a poor teacher.

The overtime is actually down from prior years but of course nodice isn't knowledgeable enough to know that. Down mainly because they agreed to change the 6 cars per shift to 5 cars per shift in the contract.

Even so, does having 5 police cars contractually on the road at 4am make sense? When nothing is happening in Boardman! The overtime is built into contracts......intentionally to rake the tax payers over the coals.

Crime rates are unconnected from police staffing levels. If you had 1000 cops, the rates would remain the same. If you had 10 the rates wouldn't change. Crime rates are not a factor of whether police are "doing a good job". They are almost completely a function of demographics and economics. Poverty stricken areas have higher crime. Boardman like communities have little crime.

Criminals don't THINK, hey Boardman has that substation on Market so we better not go there. They don't discuss where to rob based on CALEA.

They ARE overpaid. The audit pretty succinctly states that as fact. Nichols made $141,000 in 2010. 2 others made over $100,000. Those are just salaries. Factor in another 30% for benefits far better than the tax payers are getting. Senior people get almost 40 days of vacation a year. Yet, they have the nerve to want more.

Here are some examples of 2010 salaries.

Nichols - $141.000
Hawkins - $103,000
Riddle - $101,000
Lamping - $93,000
McDonnell - $91,000

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21nodice(68 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

People like apollo hide the truth by throwing inaccurate statistics around and don't link the numbers with the truth.

To say that the number of officers does not correlate with the crime rate is a over-simplified statement.

And please tell me how you know that nothing will happen at 4AM in Boardman and that 5 officers on duty are too many? Criminals do not schedule crimes. Also, there are many crimes that occur during these hours that are undetected until the next day BECAUSE of the lack of officers, such as B&E's and car break ins.

How many criminals have you talked to in your life to know what they think? I'll bet zero.

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22fd6636(255 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

hey nodice. don't you love these arm chair politicians tea baggers who think they have all the answers and thats all they say is cut, cut, cut!!! and then bitch when they need public services and they aren't there! I'll bet the criminals union locals will have to schedule their crime around the short turns! so apollo,.
criminals are smart. they read papers, listen to news stories of police/fire shortages, and they are motivated to strike because of that. you cut services, be prepared crime will go up. been dealing with these idiots for years. trust me, u will see increases in crime. good luck. you want reduction in services cause it costs too much these days? ok, cut away, who needs them!! and why were at it, make the fire dept. volunteer also. who needs the big rig responding to a fender bender, wright? unless.......... its not a fender bender, but an entrapment, and its YOUR family menber trapped inside. now you gotta wait. if this is what u want, so be it. but PLEASE, dont complain when you are inconvienced! Im done. I will not write on this site again cause frankly alot of you are bitter people who dont understand what we do or what we see during our careers, mis judge the majority of us public servants who truely care bout the public, and how we also care about the ecomony, and do our part to help. I truely hope most of you get what you crave for, and remember, this is what YOU wanted. good luck and god bless, 6636.

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23fd6636(255 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

oh by the way, union forever, your such a jack ass, how do you shave because gotta look at yourself every day in the mirror, your twisted mis conception of yourself! dont matter what you say to me I wont see it. last time im on this web site. 6636

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24youngspartanrepublican(92 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I voted for the levy. Before you accuse me of supporting frivolous government spending, it is important to note that I voted against pretty much every other useless levy such as the WRTA, library, and a lot of the special services one (not MRDD). I felt like giving them a chance to shore up there operations and streamline their government. Anyways, I think one reason that it continually fails is that the issue of crime in the township is far overblown. Let's face it, 90% of the incidents in the blotter happen at either Wal Mart or the Southern Park Mall. Crime at heavily commercialized shopping centers, especially petty theft, is always going to happen. I live near the Wal Mart and its not like crime is spilling out to the nearby neighborhoods. This isn't Youngstown or anything close to it. This notion seems to be supported by the precinct counts highlighted in an article several weeks ago. Only the North Side of the township heavily supported it. The other major areas of the township were narrowly against it or quite a bit against it (Paul C Bunn neighborhood) and areas around Sheridan and Matthews. A relative of mine who works at the school potentially credited this to the neighborhood feeling like a "bastardized stepchild" since they aren't in the school district. In other words, there likely isn't much of a police presence there. I will likely vote for the levy in the Spring, but the township needs to come up front with the voters like they never have before. Show us all the books, etc. Otherwise people that voted for it will not vote for it again. Just saying that crime is on the rise won't do any good. Honestly it seems that if the Glen became a gated community, then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

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25apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I see the Boardman employees are out in full force trying so hard to make me out the fool. Yet, they never post anything to contradict my numbers. Which I get directly from the township.

They also provide a false choice. They make it sound like the only choice is more tax dollars or less services.

How about 10 percent cuts that still puts them 10% overpaid according to the audit and peer communities. Then use those monies to hire more cops.

Funny too, how crime hasn't gone through the roof since policing manpower went from more than 60 to mid 40's. Kind of downplays their claim that we need more cops. They want you to believe that criminals meet to discuss where to commit their crimes.

Youngspartanrepublican is correct. Crime in Boardman is minimal and mostly retail related.

The trustees need to make the employees take cuts. Pay more for their health care, pay more for their retirements, less vacation days, less perks.

The trustees job is to be advocates for the taxpayers. Start doing that job.

Get this one. The zoning job that KK got wasn't even advertised. Nice political hack payback.

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26apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

fd6636 wants to scare people into believing that they get many vehicle entrapments. They don't. Using that logic maybe we need a helicopter for that one in a million person who needs immediate transport to the hospital? Spend a couple of million getting a helicopter and a few pilots. Just in case.

Here starts the scare machine.

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27apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

What is happening at the county level is criminal KK. The deputies have been taking it on the chin with concessions while others in the county take insane raises. I agree with you there. But, it appears that the commissioners don't control that.

I was also against the library levy and noticed my property taxes were higher in the bill I just received.

As for taking ownership of my website, I'm pretty certain most people know it's mine. Certainly those who tend to visit know at a high percentage.

I'm not happy that concessions are the norm now. I wish everyone was working and making tons of money. But, reality and panacea do not often intersect. Houses are vacant, foreclosures are rampant, and Boardman is not immune.

The audit says Boardman overpaid its workers. Mostly because of the windfall from the inheritance money. Now the cost structure is out of whack while the economy is sluggish.

If the employees ponied up real concessions, I'd support a small levy. I think 10% is not out of the question.

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28apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Yeah, I'm a big Cavs fan. Or at least was a big fan. Not anymore.

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29apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm not taking down the zoning comments until I see that Boardman advertised the zoning position was on the up and up. When I get the resumes and other information I requested, I'll determine whether the position was really advertised and filled with the best possible candidate or just done to appease and filled with the former county worker.

Why didn't they advertise your position? How does a retired cop suddenly get into zoning? Why not allow people who need a job any job to apply? Are you the best Boardman could do? Or was it political payback?

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30apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm pretty certain it doesn't have retire policeman on it. It's obvious you got paid back by Calhoun. No advertisement of your position and all of a sudden bingo, part time job with no experience.

The ideal zoning candidate would have zoning experience. Pretty sure you don't have that. Maybe even be college educated.

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31apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The fact is ALL township jobs should be advertised and the best candidate hired. Not some ex policeman bored with retirement from Canfield who helped get someone elected.

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32apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Only a true trougher can think they deserved that position.

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33ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

From the article above:

"Between now and the May primary, Boardman government officials will have to win over residents who voted against the levy in November and others whose personal finances are even more tenuous now than then.

In order to credibly make the argument that Boardman’s well-being requires sacrifice from all, Moliterno, Calhoun and Costello will have to show what belt-tightening has taken place in government, and what concessions the employees have made or intend to make."

What is so wrong with using the state audit comparing current wages to peer communities? And don't let the wage freeze's they propose lull you into a feeling that they made deep cuts either. Because raises still do occur when one gets a promotion in rank, the step increases occur.

We need real concessions, like doing away with the accumulated sick and vacation days for starters. 10-15% pay reductions, tight controls on overtime, and no padding the last 3 years to increase the pension payout, that is one move that continues to effect the taxpayers for years to come, especially since most of those eligible are not even close to retirement age for the private sector. No retire/rehire and double dipping. Those are for starters, you do those, no levy is needed and more officers can be hired.

What ever happened with the 2 mil safety forces levy money? Vindy has not even mentioned this is their typical slanted coverage? They have never seen a levy that they did not like. This is still a Pro Union town anyway, wouldn't want to hurt the circulation now would we?

One note I would like to ponder, if we could view the people that supported the last levy approval attempt, we would not be surprised to see their affiliation, either in a union or belong to a union family, they do organize that part very well, get the rank an file out and every family member and friend you can muster to keep the golden trough flowing.

Again I will point out what the State Audit so pointedly stated, a 20% personnel related costs over peer communities. Do we need any other proof of the largess that the township government operates at? The days of the large inheritance payments are far behind us and the paydays calculated on those by Calhoun and Mancini still haunt us to this day. Changes need to be made, Now not Later, or as is stated by the Vindy, "or intend to make."

How about it Todd, do some real investigative reporting and talk to these other communities and see how they can operate on 20% less and fully staff their police and safety forces along with taking care of their roads without two men in a truck?

I would hope you take my challenge and do a real article that would foster change, not another bunch of rubber stamped levy articles as you have done in the past?

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34L0L(660 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

"45 sworn officers and that the addition of 10 to the force in five years"

-Heard that one before, how many officers did they hire when the last levy passed when they claimed they were going to hire tten? Oh ya, one.

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35apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Look at KK's responses to me. Does he ever provide anything to show the township running properly? Is he the best of the best with his commentary as stupid as it is? They claim that by paying 20% more than peer communities we are getting better employees but the results are there for all to see including his asinine responses to me. No wonder they didn't advertise his position, I'm pretty sure anyone would have been better. Was the other zoning hire also a sham process even though they placed an ad for that opening? It's pretty obvious they don't like me because I expose their little games and scams.

As ytown1 said, we have overpaid for under talented employees for too long. No more accumulating sick and vacation time, No more overpaying 20% than peer communities. No more perks that are simply ridiculous in nature. No more cadillac health care and pensions. It's time the public sector and private sector face the same music.

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36apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Crime is no different with 45 officers than it was with 60 plus. Overtime is in fact down now that the idiotic 6 cars per shift overtime generator has been changed to 5 cars per shift.

The pay freeze that they accepted is a scam too. They still get STEP increases built into contracts. Meaning they get an increase every year regardless of the freeze. It's the same thing teachers have. A raise every year based on just being there another year. Anyone in the private sector get a raise just for being a year older?

Raising property taxes will do 2 things.

Increase the number of people who can't afford their homes and force them to vacate. This will drive prices of real estate down further with Boardman having more vacant homes.

Make it less likely people will move here with property taxes being too high.

Time for the employees to give back that 20%

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37ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Kim,
Did you ever think that he is steadfast to his conclusions because he has the facts in front of him to back up those conclusions?

The state audit for one, year after year of payroll information? Refute all of that with your own facts (You do not have any) or join the party of change?

The time for change is long overdue, and re electing Costello and electing Calhoun I feel will not bring on any change whatsoever. It is business as usual here in Boardman.

Give the township employees whatever they want or demand and they will call out their friends and families to vote you in to office, what a sweet arrangement, don't you think?

Apollo: No matter what you say, they will always go to your issue about the IT hire a ways back, but they cannot dispute the facts from the State Audit, or even the fact that the benefits they receive are far greater than anyone can ever dream of in the private sector or they would be throwing those at us to say they are getting nothing more than the average workers here in Boardman.

I know one benefit that would never fly in the private sector is the accumulated sick and vacation days, this is one of the back door benefits that was given out when they either could not give out raises due to budget issues or there was no way they could give them massive raises and they hid the rest of the money in this farce of a benefit. Remember Dorman is going to cash out a big payday when he retires soon. I have heard something like $250,000? Plus a handsome pension that he padded and inflated over the last three years. Sweet Deal isn't Kim? What I do not understand is why he is not doing the Double Dip like the chief? Oh and like you Kim.

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38ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Kim,

It all adds up, whether it is you or the chief double dipping instead of providing employment to another well deserving person and possibly taking someone off of the unemployment ranks, instead of continuing to line your pockets with more of the taxpayers money?

Just a progressive thought.

We're not painting here Kim, just pointing out the facts.

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39ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Hey Kim,
Why are you not blasting Mr.Chuck Johnson from Boardman? Here is the link to his letter in case you missed it.

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/feb/06...

Better yet I will do a cut an paste and post it here since it applies directly to this article and anyone following this can read it here.

Only taxpayers make sacrifices

As a resident of Boardman Township, not only will I be voting no on the police levy, I will be campaigning against it.

Six months ago, the people said no. It does not matter whether it was by one vote, 50 votes, 500 votes, or 5,000 votes. We said no.

Have the township trustees taken the time to compare unemployment numbers, number of residences, and average family income over the last several years to present day? If they had, I’m sure they, the trustees, would conclude that they have not improved, they have gotten worse.

Property values in Boardman have already declined, in part because of the housing market crunch, the overabundance of shopping centers, malls, theaters, and even its proximity to the South Side of Youngstown.

We in the private sector over the last decade, if we are lucky enough to still be employed, have taken numerous pay cuts, have been forced to pay more for benefits, like health care, retirement (if even offered) and forced to live with less coverage and higher co-pays and deductibles. Have the Boardman police, fire and road department personnel faced the same painful sacrifices?

The choice of the Boardman Township trustees seems to be that we lay off 20 workers or hire 20 workers. If they want to change my mind, become proactive and find a middle ground that we all can live with in. Like, perhaps, assessing these facilities through tax legislation, so that they pay their fair share instead of the already tax-burdened township residences.

I for one will not give up my cable TV or coffee for this levy.

Chuck Johnson, Boardman

Have at it Kim, blast away, I am sure you have a slant to dispute his point of view also.

Or how abut all of the other township employees that have bashed anyone else here in the past because they wanted to take back control of the townships purse strings.

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40ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

KimKotheimer asks?

"Why no name attached to your thought(s)? In case you miss a fact or two?"

Why Kim, is ytown1 hard for you to reply to?

I answer to that just like Apollo and others answer to responses you post?

I just call you out by name as you are the one who used your full name here to post with, that is your choice?

Post your facts away, the state audit and salaries are still posted at:

http://boardmanfacts.com/Links.php

for all to go there and make up their own minds. Not to be influenced by you and your fellow township employees Voo Doo economics way of running government.

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41ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Hey Kim,

Answer me this one, since you have all of the facts available to you, and I must have missed this one,

what ever happened to the 2 mill safety forces levy money? All I could find is that they hired one officer? Wasn't that supposed to be 10?
Now they say wee need another 3.85 mils to accomplish that?

Again I guess I missed those facts. I do know that the Cadillac health care plan was going up quite a bit, but the rank and file refuse to pay their fair share like most private sector employees would have to pay? We all have increased our deductibles and co-pays to help keep costs down, but don't even think of asking the 6 figure officers to help pay for this increase, wouldn't want to ask them to give up their Starbucks or their Cable TV.

Again just want to get more facts out there for all do decide how they want to vote on this issue. Your participation is greatly appreciated, isn't it Apollo. What better way to expose the malfeasance of the Boardman Township Government operation but by their self appointed mouthpiece and assistant zoning inspector Kim Kotheimer.

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42apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

KK always makes a big deal about putting his name to what he posts and that everyone else should too. Everyone in Boardman knows who I am KK. I've made no bones about who I am and heck you even posted my Cavs video!!!

The IT hire was just another scam in a long list of scams. Practically everything the township does is a scam of the taxpayers. CALEA, substation, contracts that are too generous, double dipping, 6 cars per shift, (now 5) 2 men per truck, take home cars, step increases, accumulating sick and vacation time, etc.

Who but a few posters here actually stands up for the taxpayers??? It's supposed to be the job of the trustees but we've seen how inept most of them are. When a trustee tries to reign in spending and question contracts and negotiations, they are unelected.

How much zoning experience did you have before Calhoun paid you back KK?

Heck, they should have hired a Boardman resident rather than a Canfield one.

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43apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Nobody is saying Boardman employees should be making Walmart wages. But, they also should not be paid $141,000 a year. (Nichols 2010) They also shouldn't be able to accumulate sick and vacation time and rape the taxpayers. They shouldn't be making far more than most Boardmanites. Shouldn't have far sweeter health care and pensions than most Boardmanites. Shouldn't be paid 20% more than peer communities. They are indeed overpaid.

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44m__dogg(12 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Unfortunately as incomes and revenue go down in a community, crime inversely rises in those same communities or cities. None of us want to increase our monthly or yearly expenses, but as crime increases your insurance premiums go up, home values go down, people move out of the area and schools are affected. Also, security systems are expensive and quality guns for home protection are major investments for the guns themselves plus training and license to carry. Bottomline, I'll sacrifice a few trips a year in order to pay more taxes for police. It's not pleasant, but so are ignorant criminals on the street.

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45apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

True, however by raising property taxes what are you doing???

You are lowering the incomes of thousands of taxpayers. To reward a couple of hundred already overpaid (audit) township employees.

Crime isn't rising in Boardman. Even with fewer cops. My insurance premiums aren't rising at all either. Your argument is baseless.

But raise those taxes and force even more fixed income people out of their homes and what do you get?

Empty houses being stripped of copper and lower real estate values.

Higher property taxes also keeps investment from locating here.

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46apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

m_dogg hasn't a clue. Based on his/her "thinking" we should pay 100% of our incomes to the township. That will allow us to hire 1000 cops. We will all lose our homes though since we won't have incomes to pay our bills.

The typical Democratic thinking of the valley. Higher taxes is the way to prosperity. For the township employees only.

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47youngspartanrepublican(92 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Good point about property taxes: there's a reason why nobody develops in Y'Town anymore (Taxes are way too high there). Besides, as I and many others have pointed out crime is virtually NON-EXISTENT outside of Wal Mart and the Mall. As much as I and I'm sure most of us hate them, look at the low-income and section-8 apartments in the township. Even ones such as Applecrest Court which is located in the middle of a middle class neighborhood has no crime outside of it. Why can't the township realize that it doesn't always have to be more or less. It should be called doing more WITH less. The township is not going to decline if it adopted this approach. Besides, most developments in the township are on the middle-upper class side of things anyway (down along Western Reserve).

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48apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Well you had better replace almost every cop currently working for Boardman then. They aren't highly trained but are highly paid. Remember the 2 that were forced to resign for unsavory activities. Crime in Boardman isn't skyrocketing, it isn't even up with less cops. Adding cops won't change the crime numbers at all. carlstaatz is likely a cop himself trying to scare people.

Let the church police it's own carnival.

10 percent pay cuts across the board are what is needed and that will free up enough money to hire 10 more officers and make carlstaatz feel safer.

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49apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

We don't need a full time fire department. Don't need to send the big truck out for all the fender benders and one in a million jaws of life event. Boardman has few real fires.

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50jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Apollo, please don't say that stuff about sending the big truck for fender benders. The FD only gets called to car crashes when there are injuries. If it was you or your loved one in that crash, wouldn't you want to know help is on the way? Or would you rather hope that help MAY be on the way if & when the firefighters are released from their primary employment, make their way to the fire station to pick up the fire engine and only then respond to your emergency?
Auto extrications occur more often than you are aware, but even when the "jaws" aren't needed, that doesn't mean that the FD is not.
Perhaps it is our fault for not properly educating you. Perhaps you choose to remain ignorant simply because it suits your argument.
Your statement that Boardman has very few "real" fires means what, exactly?
Did it ever occur to you that the FEW firefighters that Boardman Township DOES have, manage to keep fire loss to a minimum purely due to the quick (IMMEDIATE) response of a full-time, professional fire department?
Spouting your ill-informed opinion on the fire service would be like me professing to know a main frame from a picture frame. Neither of us knows the specifics of the others' business.
I acknowledge and am grateful that Township taxpayers (of which I am one) do support and desire the services of the Boardman Fire Department.
Know that we do not take you for granted. We want only to serve and protect this community, provide for our families, and return home at the end of our shifts to enjoy the community we are so proud to serve.
I respectfully ask that you refrain from taking your cheap shots at those of us who, on any given day, would without question give our lives for yours.

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51ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Jim, I have to clear up one remark you have so vehemently defended, the big truck and the fender bender, when actually I equate it to the big truck and the hang nail call.

You cannot dispute that the big truck does not respond to the I have fallen and cannot get up calls. I know somebody is in need of assistance, but the big truck should be replaced with a first responder vehicle, much less wear and expense on a a more appropriate vehicle than a truck that costs hundreds of thousand to purchase and god forbid was involved in an accident and unnecessarily need replacing.

That is just called planning for that rainy day which Boardman Township does not even have a clue where to begin to be a fiscally responsible government.

You and your fellow FF and Officers take this way too personally. This is about contracts and benefits that were made on the sly and never should have been allowed. The accumulated vacation and sick is the first, and the taxpayer picking up most if not 100% of the PERS contributions in lieu of past raises, which more than likely we could not afford at that time and the public would have been outraged so these backdoor raises were handed out instead. And as you can see these and the DROP continue to cost the taxpayers dearly year after year.

So go look in the mirror and do some self reflecting before you so blatantly show your ignorance to the real facts as to why the taxpayers are fed up with these levies when a 10-15% cut in pay and benefits would start correcting what ails this township. Lack of money and the lack of proper staffed safety forces.

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52jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
do you know how many firemen are in any Boardman Fire station at any given time?

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53jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
Boardman firefighters have never gotten any "backdoor raises" like pension pickup instead of raises, so you're either ignorant or just lying to people who don't know the difference.
No contract has been "made on the sly".
Our contracts have been negotiated and agreed upon by all parties.

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54ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I will repeat my last comment again, Lack of money and the lack of proper staffed safety forces.

If you resolved the money issue with the the adjustments I have mentioned earlier, we would have sufficient staff to operate a first responder at no additional cost, other than the cost for another vehicle being parked in the fire station instead of one of the employees vehicles. And I believe we could afford that without another levy or another mortgage our children and grandchildren cannot afford.

Is that so hard to comprehend Jim?

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55jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
ANSWER MY QUESTION.

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56ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

So Jim, you pay all 14% of your PERS contribution then? You pay 25-50% of your Health Care policy (Like most private sector workers) and your deductibels have doubled over the last 3 years?

No, you don't do any of that, your contract takes care of all of those things.

I didn't think so.

Then also explain if you had educated all of us as you proclaim, that instead of a small 2-3% raise this year you were going to post in in the Vindy that instead of a raise we are now going to allow everyone to accumulate all vacation and sick days not used today and are going to cash them out 15-20 years from now at my current wage at that time? Some are getting more than $75,000 right now with this asinine benefit along with a pumped up pension that was inflated over the last three years thorough some very creative techniques, go ahead and deny that doesn't happen.

Be careful your nose is starting to grow Pinocchio.

Sure all contracts were rubber stamped by Costello and Mancini, why not, they had your support at the voting booth did they not? Why not give away the farm with no consequences, blame it on an arbitrator, they said we had the money, the Inheritance money will go on forever, right?

Those contracts need revisited, just ask Gov. Chris Christie from NJ he gets it.

I take back the Pichonio crack, that was not being civil, I just want you to put yourself on the other side of the ballot box and see what we are so upset about.

When all we here is that all we need is more money, nothing another 3.5 to 4 million won't fix it? That is another 3.5 to 4 million a year not a one time infusion of tax dollars. It does not stop there either.

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57jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
ANSWER MY QUESTION.

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58ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I will repeat it again,

Lack of money and the lack of proper staffed safety forces.

If you resolved the money issue with the the adjustments I have mentioned earlier, we would have sufficient staff to operate a first responder at no additional cost.

It does not matter what current staffing is, address the money issue and your staffing question is moot. It is that simple.

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59ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Her you go Jim, along with your fellow FF and township employees, here is some reading for you,

State workers will have to pay for changes to retirement funds, here is a link if you have trouble locating the story.

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/feb/08...

This is only the beginning, you are about to see what the rest of us have been experiencing for a while.

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60jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
you obviously want to have a one-sided argument.
Your refusal to answer my question indicates your ignorance, or your unwillingness to be fair in this supposed exchange.
When you decide to be civil and have a dialogue, perhaps allow yourself to listen just a bit rather than spew your ignorance here, contact me.
I'm sure, by reading some of your comments that you are either misinformed or campaigning against us.
And, the "pinnochio" crack was just that. Another fine example of just how you have to resort to slamming us.
You accused me of taking things personally??? Look in the mirror.

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61ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Your question was:

ytown-
do you know how many firemen are in any Boardman Fire station at any given time?

I answered it on more than one occasion, how many are currently there is not relevant to the issue of the need for a new levy, concessions across board that I have very civilly described are in order.

See you describe yourself as US as in a second person. This is a financial issue that can only rectified by showing fiscal responsibility and rescind all contracts negotiated based on the inheritance revenue. It is only a one time windfall not a continuing tax that cannot support the kinds of benefits and raises handed out based on that revenue. Plain and simple.

How is it one sided on my part, you need to go back and read your responses, like you were being civil? Not.

And I took back the Pinocchio comment? I only left it because I wanted to make a point that lying or spewing false facts is the ignorance on your part.

I do not take your comments personally, this is a political and a tax issue, it effects us all with escalating taxes, who will want to or who will be able to afford to move or live here if all tax levies are passed without looking for alternative ways to accomplish the same means? I would regret not discussing this in an open forum so we can have a voice in these issues.

If you all had your way, you would shout us down and intimidate the few that get up and speak against these kinds of things at the meetings, like what has gone on in the past.

Do you have any other questions or are you just stuck on that one so you can feel like you have one up on us?

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62L0L(660 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

@ytown1

"And as you can see these and the DROP continue to cost the taxpayers dearly year after year."

A perfect example that you have no idea what you're talking about. The DROP program is self-funded by the employee as the employee continues to work. Pension is deferred into a bank account that accumilates with interest until the employee retires. Know facts before you post opinions. I also highly doubt that taxpayers were paying "most if not 100%" of PERS. Your comments are ridiculous.

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63ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Where in the private sector can you find these kinds of situations, and why do you think they are all under such scrutiny if this is all so plain for you to describe?

And yes they are paying the 14% they are required to pay along with most if not all of the portion the employee was supposed to contribute to the PERS system, which is somewhere in the red to the tune of 1 Billion Dollars.

Here is an article addressing this very issue:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/feb/08...

Where the taxpayer is on the hook is these same DROP people want to do the double dip which is also addressed in the previous article link. Another matching taxes to the PERS and more accumulated vacation days and sick days balloon payments, along with there current pension, where does it end and Yes it does cost the taxpayers more money somewhere in the total scheme of things.

These things just do not happen in the private sector, all of our companies would go bankrupt for sure.

Your comments are appreciated but you do not disclose all of the side effects that this current system of employee compensation, and how it effects the amount of taxes it would take to continue to maintain the now and the distant future payroll and benefits demanded by these public workers.

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64Millie(192 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Why pick on Boardman? The same negotiators and hired arbitrators work in many of our communities and counties. Elected officials suddenly forget who pays the bills and line up with the employees. Read Todd Franko's interview with Dellick - he gets it.

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65jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
Initially, against my better judgement, I replied to another poster who again was beating up on public employees, specifically the BFD.
Yes, this article is about the police levy, but in the particular post to which I was referring, the other poster claimed "we don't need a full time fire department" and other nonsense.
He, like you, is armed with limited info, or does know the truth but is simply out to bash US.
WE are not in PERS. The Township does NOT pay any of OUR pension contributions. I cannot speak on the contracts or agreements between the Township and the other 5 employee unions, or the non-union employees.
Oh, and you still refuse to answer my question.

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66ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Oh you are so right Kim, but that is one of the things wrong with the system, the Trustees are no different, there is no incentive to do a hard nosed negotiations when these contracts here are concerned.

I know you know what I mean. The system has become our worst case scenario when the hen house is no longer protected from being taken advantage of.

The taxpayers need to draw a line in the sand and demand that the contracts especially the ones negotiated by Costello and Mancini, and were based on the inheritance windfall revenue be rescinded and adjusted to real world economics, not the Voo Doo economics they used.

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67ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Jim,

I am not refusing to answer your question, I am only responding with the answer I feel is relevant to the current issues had hand. If the contracts were adjusted across the board as I have repeatedly posted here, the issue of under staffing, Police and Fire would be addressed and corrected to your satisfaction along with ours, and I am not bashing you personally, I have never questioned the service the departments have provided, I have only questioned the methods of how contracts were awarded and negotiated, and the use of the inheritance windfall to fulfill those contracts. Call that bashing if you will, but you are the farthest from the truth.

Take yourself out of the equation and just look at this from the perspective of Funding and how we are going to pay for this now and in the future without breaking the taxpayers and chasing them away faster than they are leaving now. So far Boardman is a Nice Place to Call Home, but if we continue down this slippery slope, there is no telling where we will end up?

You and your fellow township employees along with the trustees have the ability to correct these issues long before the damage is done.

As far as the PERS or what ever the pension contributions your union receives, I believe I have the last contract in PDF format somewhere and will have to locate that and do some more research, unless someone else would like to provide the specifics of each union, you are the one who wanted to educate us, maybe you can post a link to the contract and give the page that can be found for that, and then others may go and there and see it for themselves. Transparency is the best medicine when it comes to these issues, is what I have always said.

Respectfully Jim, Ytown1

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68jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
Isn't that a little BS? You refuse to answer the question. Maybe you can't bring yourself to admit the BFD has been cut to the bone? So you just say something YOU think is "relevant".

You have never questioned the service provided? Look back at comment #64. You tried to say we should take something other than a fire truck on certain runs. That sounds like you THINK you know better. How would you answer the fire call when the crew is across town in their station wagon? We need to have our equipment with us at all times. Give us a fighting chance! Would you tell police officers to leave their guns back at the station & if they need them, they can just go pick them up? Ridiculous.

Most contracts are available on the SERB website. Also, if you wanted a hard copy, I think a records request at the township government center would work.

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69ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Jim,
My comment you the proper response back in blog #67. Lack of funding and lack of staffing is the only thing that is relevant.

"I will repeat my last comment again, Lack of money and the lack of proper staffed safety forces."

If you resolved the money issue with the the adjustments I have mentioned earlier, we would have sufficient staff to operate a first responder at no additional cost, other than the cost for another vehicle being parked in the fire station instead of one of the employees vehicles. And I believe we could afford that without another levy or another mortgage our children and grandchildren cannot afford.

Again I am not refusing to answer your question, I will continue to respond with a resolution to our dilemma of understaffed Police and Fire. You are the one who refuses to recognize that you and your fellow FF and other township employees can step up and be a part of the solution and return staffing to an acceptable level that you and I would prefer.

The trustees only resolve to this was more money via a 3.85 mil levy or more layoffs?

I truly hope Jim, you are not one of the ones who gets furloughed when this levy goes down again? I also wish you would quit saying that what is my point of is only BS. I do not disrespect you in that way? I have done my very best to keep this discussion civil.

Respectfully Jim, Ytown1

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70apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The DROP program is NOT funded entirely by the employee. It really is amazing the lies that the employees can spew here.

ytown1 has all his facts and figures correct.

The audit says the employees are overpaid. Pretty clear cut. 20% overpaid. Based on inheritance dollars that aren't streaming in anymore. So the employees want the golden trough to continue and the taxpayers to pay for it.

ytown1 is also correct when he states the BIG truck shouldn't be sent out but a smaller vehicle instead. You also mislead by stating you only go to accidents with injuries. Meaning you go to all accidents. Then turn around and go back to the station when you see that it's just a fender bender.

The choice is clear. Cuts are needed to fund more manpower. Not additional taxes.

No more accumulating sick and vacation time.

No more rules that force overtime.

No more minimal health care contributions.

No more almost 40 days of vacation.

No more perks like take home cars and clothing allowance.

No more pensions. 401K's for all.

The cupboard is bare and the taxpayers are tired of funding stupidity.

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71apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Here's yet another of those little "perks". When Hoover is "acting Captain" he gets paid the same as a real captain for the period the real captain is off on vacation. That's a perk not found in real work places.

Find Hoovers wages here.

http://www.boardmanfacts.com/uploads/...

Nearly 70,000 in 2010. Not counting bennies.

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72apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The DROP program is entirely funded by the taxpayer. Every dollar that pays for wages, benefits, perks, health care, and pensions is ALL from the taxpayers.

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73ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Hey Apollo here is something interesting I just happened across in the minutes from a meeting of Boardman Township back in 2004.

Before you read this check out Jim Hoover's post #79, here is a part of it and I Quote
"The Township does NOT pay any of OUR pension contributions. I cannot speak on the contracts or agreements between the Township and the other 5 employee unions, or the non-union employees."

MINUTES OF MEETING HELD MAY 24, 2004 5
Motion was made by Mr. Costello to adopt the Resolution, attached to the minutes herein, verifying: that Boardman Township Fire Department employees are eligible employees who participate in the Ohio Police & Fire Pension Fund; that Boardman Township previously adopted a pick-up of all 10% of the ten percent (10%) mandatory contributions required under 742.31 of the Ohio Revised Code; that OP&F has adopted new procedures for reporting picked up contributions in order to properly prepare the 1099-R forms for its members; that the Board of Trustees wishes to reaffirm and restate its prior resolution in order to continue the pick-up under the new procedure; that, effective 5-24-04, the employer will continue to pick-up ten percent (10%) of the ten percent (10%) employee contribution required under 742.31 of the Ohio Revised Code through payroll deduction and by paying said contributions on behalf of the employee; that said picked up contributions will not be included in the gross income of the employees for tax reporting purposes, that is, for federal or state income tax withholding taxes, until distributed from the Ohio Police and Fire Pension Fund; that said picked up contributions will be included in the gross income for the employees, for employment tax purposes, as the contributions are made to the Ohio Police and Fire Pension Fund; and, that said employees shall not be entitled to any option of choosing to receive the contributed amounts directly instead of having them paid by the Boardman Township Trustees to the Ohio Police and Fire Pension Fund.
Seconded by Mrs. Miller.
Mr. Costello, Aye; Mrs. Miller, Aye; Mrs. Mancini, Aye.
Motion was

I just don't understand how this can be? When Jim tells us it is not so?

We can clearly see who all of the aey's are from.

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74ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Here is some additional reading concerning the DROP program fro the watchdog, non-profit Buckeye Institute for Public Policy, presented just this past November.

Happy reading everyone, Hey Todd maybe you could read this too, or even better contact them for a new story idea.

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/

Type in "DROP" into the search box then the search button and the link should be the first pdf selection in the list

Hope this is not too difficult to navigate to the report but I trued a direct link and it only goes to the home page no matter how I insert it into the blog.

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75jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
You ignore all my questions. You say you want adequate staffing, but you don't acknowledge that your "first responder" concept will not work. You have no answer for how we would handle a fire call when we have no fire truck or equipment with us.

But, elected officials and others have hacked away at the BFD through layoffs, attrition, and negative spin seemingly without regard for operations, so why would you be any different?

apollo-
You're right. Every dollar I earn working for the BFD is a tax dollar. So, money I spend for pension contribution, health care, food, clothing, shelter and union dues is ALL taxpayers' money.

Also, when the captain is off, someone does fill in for him. In our profession, it's important to maintain the chain of command. You may not understand or agree with this concept, but I can assure you it is not peculiar to BFD.

Why don't you indicate the number of hours I worked to earn my wages? That wouldn’t help your argument, would it? I'll remind you that we don't receive time and one-half for all hours worked over 40/wk like your "real workplace".

We do not respond to all accidents. But if you insist on not listening to someone who actually does the job, that's your prerogative.

You should listen a little, and get your facts straight- but it wouldn't be near as much fun as wallowing in the same old muck you've been spewing for years, now would it?

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76jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

y-town
I read your post about the minutes of the 5/24/04 meeting and orc 742.31. I'm quite sure I have been contributing the full 10% ever since I was employed. I happen to have the pay stubs to prove it. I have absolutely no reason or desire to lie to you. Nor would I intentionally mislead you.

I have read your post several times. The best I can figure is that the 10% is taken and sent to OP&F by the Township. Read: "said employees shall not be entitled to any option of choosing to receive the contributed amounts directly instead of having them paid by the Boardman Township Trustees to the Ohio Police and Fire Pension Fund."

Do you see what I mean? I will see if I can get a better explanation of this.

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77ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Jim, I will write real slow for you,

You ignore all my questions. You say you want adequate staffing, but you don't acknowledge that your "first responder" concept will not work. You have no answer for how we would handle a fire call when we have no fire truck or equipment with us.

I do not ignore your questions,
1. If you take all of the contracts and rescind them along with all of the other silliness , the savings will buy you more equipment and additional staff,.

2. With more staff you have FIRST RESPONDERS, plain and simple.

3. When a large call comes in for a fire or other large emergency, the large truck is dispatched with the proper staff that is still at the fire station and the fire fighting equipment to handle that emergency, the first responders that may already be out on a call will not be needed or better yet if released for their emergency they then can proceed to the other emergency and assist?

Wa La! Plain and simple now isn't it.
See I am not proposing to hack and whack at the BFD, on the contrary, if all of the proposed changes to the compensation processes currently being used by the township and advised by the state audit, be changed, we would be in pretty good shape as far as staffing issues and you would not be required to so over worked.

4. If the BFD is not capable of organizing this type of first responder system, which is used in a lot of other municipalities, then maybe we do need to clean house and start over?

Now what other question/questions do you feel I am not addressing?

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78jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown
haha-thanks for writing real slow, but what changes did the state audit advise for the FD???

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79ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Enlighten us oh wise one Jim? I know you have all of the answers her on the Vindy Board when it comes to operating the BFD and Boardman Township, it is not so hard to believe cut and concessions to better staff and protect the people that pay your salaries is not all that hard to understand. There is a lot of cutting available when it comes to all departments combined.

1. Page 2-3 of the financial systems is a place to start, it discusses the BFD along with Police

2. Page 3-6 deals with health care contributions, and pages 3-12 is quite interesting reading, I did also note the word generous used quite often when describing the benefits provided to the township employees.

3. Page 5-6 has some interesting reading

4. Page 5-9 is another page to start reading too,

Actually I reccommend going there yourselves and read this document, it has quite a bit of interesting facts to help you all make your decisions on how to vote for this additional tax levy.

Here is one link: http://boardmanfacts.com/Links.php

As far as you Jim, you are welcome to reread this and decide if we are still the enemy and not a partner in this community just like you. We all need to do or parts to succeed as a community. Whether that is approving a tax when appropriate or you taking concessions and adjusting to what is fair and equitable compensation for the betterment of all, not just to benefit the employees of the township. Good Night Jim.

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80apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Yes, Hoover we want adequate staffing but we don't want to pay a Kings ransom for it. Paying on average of well over $100,000 per employee (wages and benefits) is the problem. You guys aren't doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, or professionals on a level that should be paid the kinds of compensation you are getting. Heck, the audit says so.

The wages, benefits, perks, vacation time, health care, and pensions that Boardman residents pay for township employees are simply stunningly stupid.

There is a reason Boardman is broke and you can look in the mirror to see why.

YOU getting captains pay when your captain is on vacation is so ridiculous that it's almost unbelievable.

Got to give the unions credit though for asking (and getting) things that are so off the charts stupid, that Boardman is nearing fiscal disaster.

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81ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown
haha-thanks for writing real slow, but what changes did the state audit advise for the FD???

I have been waiting Jim to read some more facts from your perspective? What happened, did your bosses ask you to stop enlightening the taxpayers to how the Township operates?

My post answering your question about what the audit recommended for the BFD was kind of disheartening for you wasn't it?

I truly believe you all only read the sentences that seem to support your feelings and thoughts of how things are working here in Boardman, only to read all of the sentences to find out that there really is a problem, and you need to take the bad pill and succumb to concessions whether you agree with them or not, that is the reality of it all.

New Taxes is not the answer, not now and not for some time, we are truly taxed out.

Some day Fire fighters will truly be worth 65K to 75K per year, and Patrolman making over 100K, not just now, and the benefit packages should never look the way they do now, especially amounting to upwards of another 30% additional costs to the taxpayer.

With proper adjustments to all of these the township with be able to employ more, making for truly a nice place to call home.

No better time to start than right now, why wait for the levy to be voted down again.

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82ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Yes Carlstaatz, but the average residential property in those areas you mentioned is a lot more than here in the valley.
Living in the valley is quite inexpensive to the areas you mention also.

Clearly carlstaatz, you are feeding at the golden public trough and doesn't want it to end, or a retired trougher? Which is it Carl?

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83ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

A) Wrong! and B) Wrong again!

I support this valley as a hard working business owner who provides decent and steady employment for other valley people.

What have you contributed to lately, Or are you just another taker, demanding more form the taxpayers who just cannot afford anymore, especially those on fixed incomes who daily make the choice between food and medicine.

Who is Greedy now?

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84apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Sharing the wealth seems to be Carls mantra. Well, since the Boardman employees make more than most Boardman taxpayers, why not have those employees share the wealth by giving back to the taxpayers for a change??? Instead of demanding people whose median household incomes is around $60,000. That's median household Carl, not just the main bread winner. So lets share the wealth and have the township employees take a 10% cut across the board.

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85ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Carl, Jim and others here that have spoken out on behalf of the taxpayers making more sacrifices, like making due without their Starbucks or going out tho the theater, or maybe even those of us that have to make daily choices of Medicine of Food, need to read this section of the above article real closely. I will paste it here so you do not have to search for it,

"Between now and the May primary, Boardman government officials will have to win over residents who voted against the levy in November and others whose personal finances are even more tenuous now than then."

"In order to credibly make the argument that Boardman’s well-being requires sacrifice from all, Moliterno, Calhoun and Costello will have to show what belt-tightening has taken place in government, and what concessions the employees have made or intend to make."

"As for the police department, it will be up to Chief Nichols and the rest of the force to make the case that the township is at risk with 45 sworn officers and that the addition of 10 to the force in five years will give residents the level of protection they deserve."

So when exactly are the three trustees going to show us show what belt-tightening has taken place in government, and what concessions the employees have made or intend to make. (To Intend to make doesn't count because to make changes after the levy is passed will never happen we can see that coming.)

As for the third paragraph, " it will be up to Chief Nichols and the rest of the force to make the case that the township is at risk "

That explains all of the spoon fed stories to the vindicator and WFMJ TV which is also owned by the same owner as the Vindicator if you did not know, displaying supposed high levels of crime, shoplifters, domestic violence, etc. which at any other time would only make the police blotter in the Boardman News, to supposedly scare the taxpayers into coughing up another $4 million dollars for them to hand out in raises and to continue the exorbitant benefits.

I also need to dissect this part of the last sentence of thee second paragraph, "with 45 sworn officers and that the addition of 10 to the force in five years".

Let's say the levy passes and they have $4 million dollars to work with, why would it take 5 years to make the addition of 10 officers? What would take so long, they already have the other 2 mill levy that was passed not so long ago that was supposed to allow them to hire 10 officers after it was passed? Something does not make

Just for comparison to some figures that are in the news that can be fact checked, Paul Gains operates his office with a little over $2 million and has 36 people and himself?

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86ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

To finish may thoughts:

To boot the vast majority of the township employees make almost as much as he does and quite a few make a whole lot more? So to think that everyone is so up in arms about the raises he just handed out and says nothing about the Generous payroll in Boardman township, it all is taxpayers money that pays for all of this in the end.

Please go read the State Audit to really see what the township needs to address instead of another levy.

http://www.auditor.state.oh.us/AuditS...

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87jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Ytown-

I haven’t been able to reply to you because I have been working. Your post about the “performance audit” was not at all disheartening. Neither was the audit itself. If anything is disheartening, it is people not dealing with the reality of what HAS been done by firefighters to address the financial issues affecting the township.

In my opinion, my bosses couldn’t care less if I tell you how the township operates. Sometimes I don’t think they care what any of us really thinks. But that’s another issue… or is it?

So- you’re talking about the “performance audit”. By the way, when did Austintown become the yardstick by which we measure Boardman. Clearly, the two are distinctly separate entities-even your “audit” points that out.

Many of the performance audit’s suggestions have been adopted:
2-3: OK, The cost of services in Boardman is more than Austintown. (But less than Miami-but let’s not look at that column, right?) BFD members do pay a percentage of health care premiums. Also, firefighters increased the percentage of healthcare premium copay mid-contract.

3-6: a committee has been established and is working to reduce costs of health care, and again, BFD does pay a percentage of health care premiums.

3-12: BFD has had wage freezes for years now.

5-6: the bulk of this page deals with “Assessments Not Yielding Recommendation”. The small paragraph at the top of that page compares the “total expenditures per call, per citizen and per square mile”. The suggested solutions have already been addressed.

5-9: when the fire prevention officers are on duty, they are available to and do respond to all types of emergencies. For this reason, they are paid for all hours they are at work.

BFD wages have been frozen for years.

For years BFD personnel have been contributing to the cost of health care insurance premiums.

In the past few years Trustees have cut the BFD staffing by 15% through layoffs and attrition. In the coming year, the BFD stands to lose another 10-15% of its staff.

No township employees or unions are singly or collectively responsible for the perceived “financial crisis”.

Be all that as it may, I realize no matter what the circumstances are, you are no different than elected officials who look to cut safety forces when they deem there to be a financial crisis, rather than looking at the whole picture, or at least looking equally at Administration.

No matter what firefighters have done or would do, it would never be enough. Firefighters are an easy target.

I understand some scrutiny goes with the territory of being a public servant, but to tell the truth, you are focusing your frustration in the wrong place.

If you really want to get to the root of the financial issues in this township, try looking at the one officeholder who has been in place through several Boards of Trustees.

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88ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Hi Jim, Great to hear from you again,

Really I do.

I do not have much time today to answer you but I do want to make a couple of points,

1. The fact at all that you are paying a portion or your health insurance and an increase copay is great, but we are to the understanding that some if not all co pays are calculated into some of the other benefits to offset that increase, and I truly do not believe your portions do not even come lose to the amounts that the private sector contributes to, somewhere in the 25-50% range if they have any insurance at all. So that is one point I still feel needs addressing.

2. Wage Freeze is not really no raises at all, you still have step pay, so there is still raises handed out, The others are told no raises this year and that is exactly what it means, no raises, nothing more on that point needs to be said.

3. You still have the growth of vacation days of up to 40 days, and unheard of amount of holidays and paid days off that no one in the private sector could ever dream of getting.

4. And last but not least, the Accumulated Vacation and Sick day paydays is one of the most obscene items in your benefit packages that needs to be eliminated. Use it or lose it is the only answer here.

I will close this with one thought on the negotiation process, See when the boss which is the township says we cannot afford this anymore or not just now, there is no concessionary talks it is usually worked out that instead of raises that the public would be up in arms about they have an uncanny ability of coming up with some creative way to shift the compensation over to another kind of extended benefit that we still cannot afford but the public is usually none the wiser. You have to see what I am getting at. These silly things need addressed now not later, save the taxpayer the trouble of defeating this levy and get together with the trustees and do away with the overage that has taken place and rehire and additional staff so you are working in a safe environment and the public is properly protected, by Police and Fire. Good Day Jim.

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89jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Like I said, ytown, its never enough.

1) That stuff about the copays being "calculated into some of the other benefits to offset that increase" means what, exactly? If you want to compare apples with apples, we would have to look at each insurance policy and pick it apart.

2) No, when I say "wage freeze", that's what I mean. No one's getting step increases either. Or promotions-in case you're wondering.

3) Holidays and vacation days are a nice benefit, yes. I'm quite sure these were gained in previous negotiations in exchange for some other benefit such as wage increases.

4) Sick time is earned per ORC. It is also used likewise. The "buyback" is actually a benefit for the employer. The reason for this is should an employee "use it or lose it" as you suggest, it could cost at least twice as much (paying the employee's sick time, plus paying someone overtime to fill that position (you know, so firemen are actually available to respond to your emergency).

Regarding your last paragraph, if you don't like the concept of collective bargaining, you must be ok with the concept of a strike. The only other alternative would be slavery.
And don't worry, your newly-elected governor is taking on that fight.

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90ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

How about this Carl, we can look at peer communities and we adjust all township pay to match those that have the same demographics and then we will have plenty of money to not only operate with but will be able to increase the staffing to levels all of these departments have requested. Safety is maintained and the workplace is much safer for the workers, you fail to recognize the main issue is that these employees are being compensated far and way above most other public positions and even far and above the private sector.

I will bring one aspect that I saw in the payroll from 2010, there was one officer a sergeant that had over $27,000 in overtime alone, and after adding his base pay brought him to over $101,000 plus an addition 30% for benefits? Show me that makes any sense? For that kind of money the sheriff's dept. could employ almost 3 officers.

If we address these kinds of issues along with the accumulated vacation and sick day payouts at retirement, we can have proper Police and Fire protection.

And I will make one other realization that was posted about the use it or lose it with the sick days and vacation days, where it was said to have an adverse effect on the overtime having to replace somebody that insists on king all of there sick days or lose them, see they are only to be used when you are actually sick, and they can be rescinded if you abuse them, like having to provide a doctors excuse to verify that you were truly sick, they were never meant to be a part of the compensation calculation, only a safety net so if by chance you were sick your base pay would not be adversely effected, not a guarantee paid day off. Check with the private sector, that is what happens in the real world Carl.

As far as renters are concerned, I personally do not feel they should be able to vote on these items that are tied to property taxes such as levies? I know you all will have some comments on that, but if you are not really connected to the actual cost of these things, that are tied to the property owners financial responsibilities such as taxes, they are not cognizant to what it all cost accumulated.

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91ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Any other thoughts of my last post or only the renter rights to vote on property taxes?

Your silence concerning the Peer communities and the objection to the sergeants compensation scenario as it relates to the financial issues, tells me you agree, since I did ask you these questions directly by name.

Originally when our country was founded, you had to be a property owner to even vote? How about that Carl?

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92jimhoover(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

ytown-
to quote you, "Carl, Jim and others here that have spoken out on behalf of the taxpayers making more sacrifices, like making due without their Starbucks or going out tho the theater, or maybe even those of us that have to make daily choices of Medicine of Food, need to read this section of the above article real closely. I will paste it here so you do not have to search for it,"

Show me one place where I said any such thing.

Don't put words in my mouth. (and I'll save you the embarrassment-don't "ass-u-me".)

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93ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Jim, You may not have used those words exactly though I did not state that I was quoting you word for word, I was making the case that you along with the other Union supporters like Carl and others are advocating passing this levy without asking an questions as to why they should, which is to ask others in the township such as those on limited incomes to make sacrifices.

I did quote Mr Farris on his request that those in the township could give up their Starbucks and a night at the movies so the township can afford all that trustees and the unions feel the township should provide as services and compensation to the employees no matter the cost. The thought is we can always get more when that runs out, it is only a dollar more per day? Pocket change.

Sorry you took offense but it was necessary to post it that way and it was not my intent to put words in your mouth, only to show your intent.

And the (and I'll save you the embarrassment-don't "ass-u-me".) comment was totally uncalled for, keep it civil, as I have.

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94apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The employees are simply overpaid. The audit says so. 20% overpaid compared to peers. Step increases are occurring. The "freeze" had nothing to do with those. The township is broke thanks to past and current trustees who didn't do their job. Their job is taxpayer advocates not township employee advocates. No more accumulation of sick and vacation time and anyone who uses sick time must really be sick. That's the rule in the real world. Everyone must pay 25% of their health care premium. No more retiring until 62. No more contracts that dictate overtime. Work rules should be the employers to make not the workers.

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95apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Here's a beauty. Hoover gets an "acting captain" salary increase when the real captain goes on vacation or is out sick. When my boss goes on vacation, I don't suddenly make more money as the acting boss.

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96apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

That's why unions are going the way of the dodo. Seniority is more important than anything. Hard work is a negative and frowned upon because it makes the senior people look bad.

Nobody in the private sector gets bumped up in pay just for being an acting captain. Yet another in a long list of idiotic rules that causes Boardman to be nearing fiscal collapse.

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97apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Carl doesn't mind the township employees causing the taxpayers to need government support to survive due to wages and benefits that are far beyond the peers. He only thinks about the 100 or so overpaid township employees. What about the people whose income is fixed? Unemployed people? Those call center workers? Should they who make $20,000 a year pay more so cops can make $100,000?

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98apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Should favoritism be how people get hired? Should former cops get political payback zoning jobs over more qualified individuals?

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99apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm certain Carlmart would be a large failure.

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100apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

So cutting the wages of 43,000 residents is better than cutting the wages of 100 employees?

The median household income in Boardman is less then 60,000. Boardman's union employees nearly all make above the median. Should people making 20, 30, 40, and 50 thousand be asked to pay higher taxes so that Boardman's employees, all of whom are making 20% more than peer communities, can continue to make 20% more and probably get even more money and benefits that the taxpayers don't have?

Geromajor wants those less educated people like call center workers to pay more of their $10/hour for $100,000 cops.

That makes zero sense.

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101apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Do the employees of any company make more than the management of that company? The answer is of course no.

Except in Boardman, where the employees of the township make way more than the employer, the taxpayers.

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102apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Youngstown does pay less for it's safety services.

The audit says they are overpaid to the tune of 20%. It was based on inheritance taxes of 40 million over the years. All given to the employees and now the taxpayers, property owners are being asked to fund the shortfall.

You guys want people making less than the township employees to give them more money after they already wasted 40 million? Are you serious?

You want 43,000 to pay more and do with less rather than the 100 or so giving back the 20% they don't deserve?

If it passes, then be ready for even more empty houses and more empty store fronts because that is exactly the result.

Why do you think many of the Boardman employees are moving out of Boardman? Right KK?

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103apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

No, that's not what I said. The median household income in Boardman is less than $60,000. That's total household income not just the main bread winner. Township employees should not be the highest paid workers in the community. Nichols making $141,000 in 2010 sound sane to you? Two other cops making $100,000 plus! NOT INCLUDING BENEFITS in either case. The average Boardman employee is costing us over $100,000 each with benefits. Those numbers are staggering. In a community with nearly zero fires, few violent crimes, and decent roads. Do we really need leaf pickup? Or 2 men per truck? Or CALEA, substations, take home cars, picking up the entire 24% pension costs for some unions, almost 40 days of vacation for senior people, clothing allowances, accumulated sick and vacation time that they use to pad the pensions?

Should we have officers trekking to Walmart all day long for petty thefts? 5 cars on the roads at 3am? 4 hour minimums for court appearances?

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104Doctore(52 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

So once again, I chose to be informed and did some research. Most of what "apollo" rants about in each and every post has been eliminated.
I scoured the audit line for line and didn't find the word overpaid anywhere. I did find that neither Austintown or Miami are actually peer communities, just the closest thing they could come up with around here.
$141,000 for the Chief, well apparently that was with the retire/rehire, which I don't particularly agree with, but it seems that next year he won't be paid anywhere close to that. But for the bonus question; how much overtime did those officers you keep ranting about work last year and who funded it? I asked and found out, can you? Or, are you still too wrapped up in your personal issues to address facts as they are today?
By the way, I also asked around and found out that most people who know of you, not just employees of the township, think you are a ja@@a** apollo! I think some things could be changed for public employees across the state, but as for wages, I am glad they are well paid and I support them 100% for doing a job that I wouldn't do, and you probably couldn't do.

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105apollo(1227 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Nothing Apollo rants about is untrue. Doctore is just another township employee using yet another name to try and discredit me.

How about the zoning hires Doctore?

You think they should advertise them, perform some interviews, and hire the best candidate???

Or maybe political payback for Kotheimer is OK in your book and the dog and pony advertisement and ONE interview (Loree said it was informal) and hire of that candidate was on the up and up?

All the things I've pointed out over the years have been proven true. CALEA, bogus IT ads and hire, 15 year lie, substation, false clearance numbers, take home cars. This township has been run by clowns who have thrown millions of dollars down the tube.

Austintown and Miami township are PEERS. Boardman wages and benefits are 20% higher than those PEERS.

Giveaways that are coming back to roost.

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106Doctore(52 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Still here Apollo, still think you are a weenie, and guess what; Still not a Township employee. Oh and they are not "PEERS", your Auditor said so. Now run and play little guy.

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