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Collective thoughts of a taxpayer

Originally Published: 04:57 a.m., February 27, 2011 and  Updated 04:57 a.m., February 27, 2011

By Todd Franko (Contact)

Hollywood must be watching.

On Monday, state Rep. Bob Hagan of Youngstown chided Gov. Kasich for putting his foot in his mouth. It was just days after Hagan got pulled into a Facebook debate and dropped the not-so-sensitive name “Buckwheat” with an African-American guy in the debate.

Also Monday, state Rep. Tom Letson of Warren, fresh out of personal reform, was front and center at a Youngstown State University union rally when he really needed to be backstage lying low.

On Thursday, Mahoning County Prosecutor Paul Gains spoke for a while in joining Mahoning County commissioners against Ohio Senate Bill 5, which would curtail collective- bargaining powers of government unions. Yet Gains is the No. 1 Poster Boy for showing that government spending is so screwed, you don’t even need unions to get 10- and 20-percent pay raises — just work for Paul.

Hagan ... Letson ... Gains ...

They were missing only Charlie Sheen for that foursome.

It was a crazy week of debate over how our tax dollars are spent. And half-baked leadership like the above allowed for flawed focus from Columbus to Madison, Wis., and in many Panera Breads in between.

Flaw examples:

Any lawmakers (Hagan, Joe Schiavoni of Canfield, etc.) who want 5,000 protesters in the Statehouse truly don’t want to conduct the people’s business. That’s a circus at Covelli Centre; not a legislative debate. Had it been tea- party members doing the same, Hagan would have been smarting off at Lemon Grove instead of the Statehouse steps.

The debate is about government workers, not specifically union workers. But union workers have built so much traction — too much — that they wag nonunion government worker spending as well, as evidenced by deals handed out in the Mahoning County engineer’s office, among other places.

Stop saying that this would not have happened were it not for Wall Street’s problems. We taxpayers have had a government worker pay and benefits problem for 15 years. In fact, The Vindicator wrote about it in 2003.

Only now has the perfect storm of a shattered economy and political will forced you all to listen (except Gains). Tom Costello in Boardman Township is not extorting township workers. He’s merely telling you in advance what voters will tell you in May: “Ask for more money while having better benefits than us, and you lose.”

But specifically to the union contracts and collective bargaining — since that’s the debate in front of America right now — here are some things that we “privates” would like you to know and/or fix:

First, we know it’s not all government workers. But the elected leaders, department heads and union bosses at the front of the line need to take a hard look at themselves.

Sick time is an insurance against your inability to work. It is not a bonus. If you have the ability to work, you don’t get the sick time. If you end your homeownership having never filed a claim, you are not getting a refund on your premiums.

Your annual salary is based on 2,080 hours that you work; not 2,080 hours — plus the 200 hours of sick time that you did not use, and vacation that you cash out. That practice would bankrupt privates.

Tie your pay raises to the strength of the local economy. Raises of 2, 3 and 4 percent are fine. They absolutely are. But they should come when a region’s income and sales taxes reflect a certain strength and growth. They shouldn’t come because “that’s the contract we signed.”

Let the college professor paint his damn office. Don’t tell him that work rules allow only the five designated guys in maintenance to paint rooms — and then make him wait four years.

Align your health-care insurance co-pay and deductible within the 80 percent range of the average private citizen.

Don’t send more than two people to a state or national conference. Send one and have him or her report back to the group. You sometimes send five to 10 people. That hardly happens in private industry around here.

Your pension cannot be the average of your last three years unless you fund it 100 percent yourself. You’ve manipulated that system with padded overtime, inflated income and other enhancers that you load into your final three years. Most of you did not pay into the system yourself. What was paid into the system for you was certainly not at a rate to match your last three years.

All these 15 or so years, too many government workers never, ever budged on these issues. Too stubborn. Too greedy.

Hagan, Gains, Schiavoni and the gang can grandstand all they want. They cannot cash the checks they want to write — and they know it.

So now that the entire job-protected world of the government employee is caving in, some of these options are suddenly acceptable.

Sorry. You’ll have to endure a little more concessions.

We promise not to ask you to go back to the standard of pay and benefits of the ’60s and ’70s, which concerns some of you.

But we’re also not interested in going back to the last 15 years, which concerns us.

Todd Franko is editor of The Vindicator. He likes e-mails about stories and our newspaper. E-mail him at tfranko@vindy.com. He blogs, too, on vindy.com.


1repeaters(314 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Hagan, Gains, Schiavoni and the gang .....all with the big 'D' after their names. It appears I've been fooled by the Democratic party. In the old days, the Party stood for ALL the working people, but the "new" current, modern, Democratic Party stands for anyone who holds a union card. The rest of us working stiffs are just pons to insure the Democratic candidate gets elected and the union reaps the benefits. In other words, the union get the support of the party which channels monies in any way shape or form, to that big block of continuous support that are always standing behind the candidate at the podium. The money is recycled into the candidates campaign fund so he/she can convience the rest of us dumb Democrats that they are actually working for us too. Funny how us non-union Democrats never seem to reap the benefits of those supporters behind the podium. Well, the facts are , in the last decade, Ohio has lost over 600,000 manufacturing jobs(union and non-union), is seventh highest in taxes and forty-seventh in job creation. In the valley, after electing all the 'D's' after their names, were still living on earmarks and grants since the mills closed (in case they want to talk the progress issue, V&M is a French-German company so foreign companies do locate in the U.S....remember, it's global). After all this....it will be a cold day in you know where, before another 'D' gets my vote again.

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2smrt_enuf2leave(11 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Amen ...Amen ....and Amen.
Finally the truth, and not the distorted "facts" that each side likes to throw around.
Keep up the good work Todd

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3timOthy(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Why hasn't anyone conducted a Performance Audit of all Govt. offices at the State,County,Cities,Villages ,and Townships levels ? Is there no waste there ? Or are you going to find a bunch of Dead Weight that is not needed ! And after that is done we can revisit your wages and benefits as elected officials to make sure your not getting more than you deserve ! Which I feel you most definitely are .

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4mishmash(333 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Once again, our biggest blackeye in all of these articles, the biggest ogre against the poeple, not for the people.... eminates from the GAINS GANG....

RIDICULOUS RAISES....10, 20, 22% Paul Gains does not care, he even tries to justify his misbeliefs by growling & threatening every & all who cross his path.

at some point, somebody needs to stand up to his tyranny.

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5dmacker(546 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

It would seem that the silent majority is finally waking up.

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6unclebill(23 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Nobody could have said it better. Bravo

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7Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Who can forget about Leona Helmsley's remarks about the little people ? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leona_He... ) . The taxpayers are looked at in a different dimension by far too many of those in office . The only thing that can be be done to snap them back to reality is to vote them out at election time .

The taxpayer is looked upon as a cash cow only fit to be milked !


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8author50(1121 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Great column Mr. Todd. The one nagging question for me is how did Ron "Both Sides of the Issue: Gerberry escape your right on wrath?

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9UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

This is a war between the haves 'public employees' and have-nots 'private sector taxpayers'. It doesn't matter if your union or not. The time has come to end the cadillac healthcare and golden pensions for all pub lic employees!

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10ComeOnMan(17 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

I think your article is a fair, accurate, and honest take on what is currently happening and how we feel.

It takes a lot of guts to write this but you feel that the truth is the truth and can't be politically spun as some are doing. The local politicians are going to make us vote republican because we know what is happening here.

The whole thing is exactly a circus and if you work for the taxpayers then you have to abide by what we can afford not the want you demand.

Everyone that works for the taxpayer needs audited on what they make, including benefits, and actually do each day. Thats what happens in the private sector. This has gone on long enough behind the scenes.

This article should be a reality check for everyone and should be kept up on the site for weeks.

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11faith(200 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

SB5 is a joke. This is nothing more than a political attack on labor, and has nothing to do with the budget. If Ohio and the governor are worried about money, then why is he giving out raises in pay to his cabinet? Its ok for the folks at the top to get a raise but GOD forbid our police officers have health care. What a joke.

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12cashmoney(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

You, Mr. Franko, are the reason I will never have another subscription to the Vindicator.

To the vindy, get rid of this guy and I may pay you for your newspaper again.

Jealous of public workers, aye??

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13endthismess(464 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Why is it when sometone disagrees with someone's OPINIONS they attack someone personally. I admit, in the past Franko's articles were dopey but now he is stepping up and tackling the issues head-on. If you disagree with someone's OPINIONS attack the opinions not the person. That's what's become wrong with our political climate now. Disagreeing with opinions is the why we are the U.S. not Libya.

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14cashmoney(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

OK I'll play your game.

If SB5 passes, will your taxes go down? Absolutely NO. They - politicians - will do with it what they want. And you - the public - will lose greatly. Teachers will leave, at least the ones with less than 20 years experience. Police officers, who wants to do that now? No incentives, whatsoever. Add firefighters there too.

How many degree do you think this Franko has? How many degrees do people have in the private sector? A lot less than the public! Teachers, minimum have 2 degrees. Some have more. Most police officers have a degree. Firefighters too.

I am telling you, SB5 will kill our public work force. And eventually all unions. And then we are doomed by the bussiness man, again.

This, SB5, is all politics people. Unions get people together to vote for who? Democrats. If Republicans kill unions, guess what? There is no group to go together and vote democratic. Therefor, Republicans win. And win, and win.

We need Cairo. Now. Our government is out of control.

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15Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

cashmoney :

So you and the other hogs at the trough think that you're special ?


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16cashmoney(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

No but I do work, hard. How 'bout you stan? What do you do? Or do you collect ss??

How many degrees you got there stan?? I have 3.

All I did was lay out some facts, unlike your boy franko, who twisted the truth in his favor.

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1789must(21 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

For all union haters; Stop driving your car. It was built by union workers. Your car was most likely wired by the IUE Delphi workers. Turn off your lights and T.V. It runs off the electricity that the union electrician put there. Stop using your toilets and bathing. It was put in by a union plumber. Move out of your house, it was built by a union carpenter. Stop using the mail. Your mail carrier is union too, and dont call the police and fire departments there union too

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18mrblue(1175 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Hagan---Letson---Gaines---They have got to go. Put a microphone in their hands and a camera in front of them and they will rant and rave and say nothing.

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191970mach1(1005 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

For all union haters; Stop driving your car. It was built by union workers. Your car was most likely wired by the IUE Delphi workers. Turn off your lights and T.V. It runs off the electricity that the union electrician put there. Stop using your toilets and bathing. It was put in by a union plumber. Move out of your house, it was built by a union carpenter. Stop using the mail. Your mail carrier is union too, and dont call the police and fire departments there union too



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20Tigerlily(509 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Todd, you've shown your butt off. Now everyone who didn't know, knows.

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21ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Todd, I applaud you for standing up and being counted, though I will cut and paste another post concerning Boardman Township as you did refer to Mr. Costello and his epiphany about that if the benefits of the township employees exceeds the average taxpayer s it currently does there is no way another levy will pass, so for the ones who would not look at the other thread, I will paste it here, it really applies to all circumstance in the public employment arena. And Todd please pay close attention to the end, I do hope you can address this real soon.

One note this was in part an answer to Doctore in a previous post about being against the public employees:

We are not against the township employees either, this has never been an us against them, they have made it that way with their personal attacks here and at public meetings when somebody questions the ridiculous benefits and compensation.

What I want is a sane and fiscal operation of the township, not a budget that we are constantly chasing to fulfill, because of contact promises based on the inheritance tax for one among others that we could never in a million years be able to afford and sustain for any length of time. That is where we find ourselves. More taxes are not the answer when you have items that be be corrected first. The insurance thing is only the first item.

Is this going to be painful to the people we rely on to protect us and keep our community a place to be proud of, Yes it is going to hurt for a little, but this is not personal, I have never said in any of my previous posts that these people do not deserve a good living, I have only posted the items that we just cannot afford, Insurance is one item, we will see how that plays out, (I mean no give backs in raises to compensate for this if the levy passes), The accumulated vacation and sick days is another, I could continue but you have read it before.

I am still amazed on how the votes went form 5-4, to 9-0, without some sort of backdoor promise. I do believe the documents displaying the facts of the current insurance plan for anyone to download here swayed some to change their vote, but should not have swayed all. See the trust level is what has been damaged the most here. We cannot believe anything for it's face value any longer. That trust has to be rebuilt, and that will take some time.

I still ask Todd Franko to ask the real questions concerning the fact of just passing the 2.2 mil levy and turn right around and ask for 3.85 mils more? What happened to the promises from the first levy that went unfulfilled. How about it Todd, the editorial today was a start but you would really be the Man if you delved into this area.

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22Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

cashmoney :

"No but I do work, hard. How 'bout you stan? What do you do? Or do you collect ss??

How many degrees you got there stan?? I have 3.

All I did was lay out some facts, unlike your boy franko, who twisted the truth in his favor. "

If indeed you do have three degrees of which I doubt then the mental requirements to get one have been relaxed . The futile attempt of yours to bash Tod has indeed exposed your being intellectually disabled .

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23cashmoney(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

oh my stan...did I hit a nerve? yes, I have 3 degrees, a BA, a BS and a Master's.

My goal was not to bash franko, just point out that his tyrant is one-sided...as always. Are you a defense attorney? If so, franko should look elsewhere.

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24ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Ditto Jessiedavid,

R1200GS just wants to deflect the real issue being discussed, Sure we are all irritated that the companies like Exxon can reap obscene profits like they have and pass out even more obscene golden parachutes to their CEO's, but that will have to be discussed on another thread, maybe you should go to that blog and post your comments ad objections about that there.

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25wownut54(4 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

..."We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers' salaries and take away their right to strike." Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933

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26debraweaver(30 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

This is the biggest bunch of BS I have read in sometime. How come there is no mention of the fact that Kasich is giving his staff significant wage increases. Further more, what they already earn is significantly more than almost every state worker....and he says the reason that he has to do this is to retain talent. Give me a break! http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/1...

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27ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Wow your name says it all, to adjust the collective bargaining agreement is just that an adjustment.

No where is is it being totally eliminated, adjusted yes eliminated no. They will still be able to negotiate wages not these insane benefits that are going to break us. So your reaction is way over stated. This agreement has swung way too far to the side of the unions and needs addressed so the people that were elected can do the job that they were elected to do.

Which in my opinion is, to make sure our government is run in a sane fiscal manner, to provide the services that the taxpayers expect from a government guided by a democracy, and to make sure the taxpayers who are footing the bill are not taken advantage of. How do you see it? Or will your name prove to be true again? Comparisons Hitler are just some more of the scare tactics we are becoming so numb to.

Here is a link to some information that helps understand this a little better. Pay special note to the information on the right and the double (**) really revealing.


JessieDavid posted the article that provided the information above, check it out too.


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28unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

What is wrong with you people!! All of you teabaggers don't have a clue what you are about to do to this country. If it had not been for the labor movement, we as working people in this country, union and non-union, would still be scraping the bottom of the barrel just to survive while our nations wealthy citizens would be hoarding all the money. What do you think is going to happen when the Unions are disolved? Do you think guys like John Kasich, Karl Rove, the Koch brothers are going to care about you or your family? I can tell you for sure the answer is no. The unions are the only reason working people both union and non-union are able to make a decent wage and able to give their families the support they deserve. If it were not for the Democrat Party we would not have alot of the programs that we have come to rely upon. Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, Unemployment compensation, Family Medical Leave among others were all protections for the average worker, not the rich that many of you seem to be defending. They don't need these programs, we do!!! Unions started for a reason in this country because of corporate greed and they are going to end for the same reason with the help of all you Fox News, Teabagger kool-aid drinkers. Just remember when the middle class is gone and you all figure out what you have done, the unions will no longer be there to help, and when you are looking around for those rich guys to help you out, they won't be there because they will be on their way to the bank laughing all the way.

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29ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

unionproud, if things keep going away the they are, the middle class will be only made up of the public union workers and a few of the unions that are left after this country goes bankrupt.

The rest of us middle class taxpayers will be the new class of have not's thank you.

See your rants are only to keep us down, you do not wish prosperity for us, especially if it means that your unions need to give back some of the nonsense that has gone on for the last 12-15 years.

So no thank you unionproud, we are forced to proceed with this course of actions until you understand that you are not the solution, you are currently the problem.

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30AntiFascist(61 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Franko you're a bum. This paper has and continues to go downhill with you at the helm. Just canceled my delivery subscription. This piece of crap you wrote was the last straw.

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31unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

ytown1 tell me again how the unions are the problem? Our ecomony crashed because of wall street exc. like John Kasich. Union all over this valley have taken wage freezes and conessions for the last five years. The only people the Republican Party is protecting is the ultra rich by not asking them to pay their fair share. As bad as it seems to be Mr. Kasich gave his Chief of Staff a $50,000.00 a year RAISE on the backs of the taxpayers!!! That is more than most of us make in a year. I don't hear you saying anything about that. It's ok for them to recieve benefits and raises but we are expected to give up everything we have. IS THAT THE WAY IT IS?

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32marci8(1 comment)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Wonderful comments Mr. Franko! What don't people get?-taxpayers have to foot the bill for all the gov't workers! And I've had enough of paying more taxes! One thing missing...What about our county Auditor (Mike Sciortino)-property values have decreased substantially, yet the auditor will not re-assess the true value of property because he will lose more money in property taxes. I heard him say even though home values have decreased, he will not be reducing property taxes because they need the money! Why aren't the people in the Valley complaining about this? I can't wait to get out of here when we retire-the valley abuses the good people who live here, yet, the people just go along! Look at Wendy Webb -she took over 100K in sick days when she left! Yah, we can afford that. And she stunk as the school super. What a joke. And the schools cry they have no money. It's no wonder! Wake up People!!!

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33republicanRick(1743 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

All big union towns are dead or dying-- their outdated means of crying, bullying, and putting up inflatable rats is now in the past. Sorry guys, but you need to face the future and work with us, not against us.

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34unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

What about it Kasich fans, None of you want to address the raises he gave his staff at the statehouse including a $50,000.00 raise for his chief of staff, not to mention the money the taxpayers have to pay so that he could stay at his home instead of the Governors residence!! If we are broke then we are broke for everybody. Teabaggers should be outraged. Is he going on merit pay?

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35jdog(1 comment)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Oddly, they’re not having this problem in the red, right to work states of the south.
Those states are also relatively fiscally sound. I have a bsme, msme, and an mba, plus a couple of dozen additional professional certifications. I have been looking for a new and better job, and every serious lead or offer has been from Georgia, Carolina’s, Alabama, or Texas. I would prefer to stay in this area due to family, but will probably end up moving south, since there is, and probably never will be any new companies or job opportunities in this area until the union mentality ends. They had their place 90 years ago but OSHA, NIOSH, and several other laws and agencies have made them obsolete. No new company will come to this area when they can go to a right to work state, and the south is booming, while another plant closes here.

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36unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Texas has a bigger budget deficet than Ohio. All of the working poor live in the South. Is that what it has come down to, we all have to be working slaves? We have to fix the budget on the backs of hard working Americans when their is so much other waste in our budget. That might be your vision for America but it's not mine!

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37unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

I still haven't seen any teabaggers, Republicans, or wannabe Republicans justify Kasich giving raises to his staff and making taxpayers pay for him and his family to stay in their current residence. Where are you? Oh maybe Fox News didn't report on that and it would require you to use your own brain.

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38saddad(655 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Im really tired of the shyt stirrers in this country and Franko's just anoither of them. Youve got the right name for it Generalisimo

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39Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

cashmoney :
"oh my stan...did I hit a nerve? yes, I have 3 degrees, a BA, a BS and a Master's. "

How much did you have to pay the diploma mills ?

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40toddfranko(101 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Sen. Schiavoni responded to the column with this letter to the editor:


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41cashmoney(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

stan, you are too funny! Last time I checked YSU was not a diploma mill...and they aren't diplomas, they are degrees. But I would expect that comment from someone who doesn't have one.

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42borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Mr.Franko,I know the last few weeks I've agreed with you and it makes it appear that I only like you because I agree with you. I've always respected people with real courage and you sir are displaying plenty of it. Someone with testicles in this town is a hero.

89must,If you don't like business quit buying from them. Start your own business with union workers. Oh,then you'd be a business owner and you couldn't like yourself and you couldn't stay competive and then all your union workers wouldn't have a job. This is not what came first the chicken or the egg,without business there would be no workers.

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43captdinger(110 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

89must Just for curiosity's sake, what brand auto or autos do you own, how about TV's, how about washer and dryer.

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44MikePrelee(38 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Mr. Franko, every issue you comment on could be brought up and resolved in collective bargaining sessions. It's disingenuous to blame public workers for the less than adequate negotiating skills of our elected leaders. If the state couldn't afford these benefits state leaders shouldn't have agreed to them. It's the elected officials who should be held in contempt, not the public workers who deal with the worst our society has to offer everyday.

More thoughts on this subject at: http://talesfromtherustbelt.blogspot....

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45Tigerlily(509 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

If anyone is grandstanding, it's our own Mr. Franko, right here in this editorial. What a display.

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46Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

cashmoney :
"stan, you are too funny! Last time I checked YSU was not a diploma mill...and they aren't diplomas, they are degrees. But I would expect that comment from someone who doesn't have one."

Unlike you I am secure with my accomplishments and feel no need to brag . Unless you have proof of those degrees I have to assume that it is all BS . You don't come across as a person with superior mental ability .

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47valleyred(1103 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Kudos to Todd for writing this article! I wrote an editorial in the Jambar on Thursday on this very issue and have heard nothing but positive things about it: http://i53.tinypic.com/2zqhtus.png

Glad Todd had the guts to stand up and make his voice heard on this issue!

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48Tigerlily(509 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

it's not hard for him to stand up and have (not make) his voice heard on this issue, as he has this column handed to him by virtue of being an editor at the rag, valleyred. sheesh. what a newbie.

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49unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Jessie maybe you should strap a gun on and keep your neighborhood safe, run into a burning building to save a life, get up in the wee hours of the morning and clear the roads or shovel the sidwalks so your kids can get to school, drive a bus load of kids to school safely everyday, or be the nurse that give the inital care for an injured human being that will possibly save their life. Now that someone that is qualified, not just someones buddy. These people earn everthing they get.

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50unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Jessie Is between 20,000 and 40,000 dollars a year fair? You see Jessie you only believe that public employees wages are unfair because you have been told so by a millionare politication or a millionare broadcaster on Fox News. These people who do these services are not yours or anybody elses slave, and by the they have families to take care of as well. They pay 14% into their pensions and and most pay 10% of their benefits. They also pay taxes. You know instead of being jealous of union taxpayers maybe your should get a bargaining unit where you work. I can hook you up. I think it is a shame that the people willing to provide those services for those of you that are unwilling, are made out to be the bad guys. Maybe you and John Kasich and the Fox News staff should look in the mirror, you might not like what you see!!

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511970mach1(1005 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

In reading Franko's columns in the time he has been at Vindy, you can tell he is not a right winger. He comes across as a left-center sort of guy. I'd bet he voted for Obama.

When someone in that part of the political spectrum starts to become so disgusted with the antics/attitude/performance of public employee unions and govt. employees, that is not good news for them.

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52George412(161 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

"Any lawmakers (Hagan, Joe Schiavoni of Canfield, etc.) who want 5,000 protesters in the Statehouse truly don’t want to conduct the people’s business."

I beg to differ, Mr. Franko. Those 5,000 protesters are part of the people's business. They ARE the people.

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53Wakeup722(37 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

I am a tax payer, union member and a public employee. I wonder how the union staff at the vindy feel. Bet Todd is not respected. I canceled my subscription and would urge other union members to cancel theirs too!

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54mzfeefee(22 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The fallacy here is to assume that union workers have not made concessions on wages, healthcare and other benefits. Many of them have taken zero percent wage increases for number of years. They participate in healthcare committees that look for means to cut healthcare cost and sometimes those mean are increase cost in deductibles which are paid by the people who use the services. No one has top of the line insurance with first dollar paid by the employer. The aim here with the end of collective bargaining is to make public employee equivalent to Walmart workers....the working poor. Civil employees are typically better educated than their private counterparts and usually are paid less to start.

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55Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

When expenses exceed the monies being gathered there are two options . Cut expenses or increase taxes . The special ones don't want anything cut and continue to demand more . The taxpayers are told that supporting the special ones is in their best interest . Who cares if the taxpayers ability to sustain the system collapses ? Those demanding more certainly don't .

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56unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Who is demanding more Stan? All your BS is just words that come out of your mouth without any thought. Public employees are not being "supported" by taxpayers, they are providing a service then getting paid for the work that they do, I'm assuming much like you or all the other whinners on this blog.

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57Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

unionproud :

"Public employees are not being "supported" by taxpayers,"

You're special with special logic !

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58Tigerlily(509 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Yes, and sometimes their JOB, commoncitizen, is to rally folks to public forums and protests and to make sure they know of opportunities for their voices to be heard in Columbus. Especially when Lord-King Kasich is shouting over theirs and plugging his ears.

Teabaggers. They want a revolution, but only the one that THEY want. When someone else protests, they whine about it.

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59cmrosko(19 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

What and who are Mr. Franko's thoughts "collective" with?

Franko contradicts himself and misrepresents facts and associations in several key instances in his opinion article. He complains about wage increases of non union public employees and tries to tie those complaints with complaints about public employee union negotiations and then goes on to make further comparisons with the negotiated high salaries of successful creative talent like Charlie Sheen. The details of Franko's arguments are a far stretch and mainly convey an underlying message that suggests he's pissed off about money, his money.

Franko's rage and complaints most likely come from his own uncomfortable positions of being an editor who is financially bound up with the poor financial shape that most newspapers and print media suffer from these days. Franko is pissed off at the wrong people for the wrong reasons. His comments strongly suggest that he's sucking up to anti union power elites, who of course are the ones who really control most of the money. The Chamber of Commerce, his own boss, Kasich, Koch Industries, etc, etc.. You often see allot of this kind of sucking up to the boss and anti union behavior bubble up during union, labor and financial struggles, even among union members, who are often referred to as scabs.

This is a very sad public display for a news editor and active manager of America's fourth estate.

Public employees are just as subject to abuses from poor management and working conditions as private employees are. They too can be subjected to possible acts of discrimination, unfair wages and poor or unsafe working conditions. They too should have to same abilities to collectively stand up for being treated fairly and humanely as any other american "taxpayer" does. To argue against those rights is to argue against the very essence of being American whether those arguments be made up of "collective" thoughts or not.

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60palbubba(812 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Mr. Franco, just wanted to say thanks for the truth, that's what jounalism is about. Best opinion piece I have ever read in the Vindy.

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61badeepster(124 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Didn't one of the policemen knock this whiny Frankfurter out in that charity hockey game. There's a reason why a hack like Frankfurter works at a rag like the Vindy. When he leaves here, he'll end up pumping gas somewhere. Hope the welfare workers remember his name when he comes a' calling for assistance.

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62Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Why are the special people in such an uproar ? You don't need the money but they do !

Truth to a liberal is like Holy Water to a vampire !


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63walter_sobchak(2728 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago


I couldn't agree more! I believe that Franko is a little left of center, so I was very surprised when he expressed these opinions a few weeks ago.

The pendulum has swung too far towards the unions and everyone knows it! In the private sector, the worker, both union and non-union do not get a choice in whom their boss is going to be. But, in the public sector, that is not the case. Either directly or indirectly, they have a direct say in the person with whom they will be bargaining. So, if public employees insist on maintaining all of their collective bargaining powers, then they and their union should be barred from taking any part in supporting candidates for public office.

My grandfather was a steelworker at Republic Steel during the non-union and union days. He told me that his foreman would stand over them with a bullwhip. When they organized, he told the foreman to stick the whip up his a$$. The union saved him. However, over the next 40 years he also saw the handwriting on the wall. He told me to stay in school and get educated because the uneducated needed the union to protect them. He also said if I set foot onto a shop floor or line (except as the boss), he would kill me. Pretty smart guy; I'm glad I listened to him!

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64candystriper(575 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago


8% ... sure

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65borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Tigerlily,Teabaggers want to complain when someone else protests? Are you kidding me? You're usually way out there and normally make no sense,but you and your ilk have been whining,moaning,groaning and crying about the Tea Party for two years. There's hardly a post by you or your ilk that don't mention the Tea Party and in not so nice terms. You enjoy reading your posts so much you don't even care what you write. Sheeeesh.

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66Tigerlily(509 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

boyrylie, you make no sense whatsoever. You're usually way out there and normally make no sense.

See? Anyone can say that. It doesn't make you right, though.

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67republicanRick(1743 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Do you notice the meanest and nastiest comments and threats come from the union crybabies?
My taxes pay your wages -- you could at least show a little common decency when you voice your opinions. Your anger and threats don't help advance your agenda.
Quit quoting old union stories, it's a new world and you better adapt and learn ro accept change.

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68toddfranko(101 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Lots of interesting reading here. My email was pretty active as well. Go to my blog above the column to read some emails.
I was wrong in my pension riff, and two readers corrected me.
One reader offered an opinion from elsewhere.
A YSU leader offered some support for cashed-out sick time.
And one guy picked on my girth.
Oh well ....

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69cmrosko(19 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Franko, (Quote);..."Sorry. You’ll have to endure a little more concessions.
We promise not to ask you to go back to the standard of pay and benefits of the ’60s and ’70s, which concerns some of you..."

Wake up and pay attention.
That's exactly what you and other anti union clan are asking for Mr. Franko. The standard labor class pay rates and benefits of the 60's and 70's WERE BETTER than they are today relative to costs of living, ESPECIALLY AMONG UNION EMPLOYEES. As union membership has declined in the U.S. so too have income levels relative to living costs for most middle and labor class Americans..

Wake up and pay attention to what's really going on in America Mr. Franko.

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70cmrosko(19 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago


Wealth, Income and Power
The following link presents details on the wealth and income distributions in the United States, and explains how we use these two distributions as power indicators.


"...Some of the information may come as a surprise to many people. In fact, I know it will be a surprise and then some, because of a recent study (Norton & Ariely, 2010) showing that most Americans (high income or low income, female or male, young or old, Republican or Democrat) have no idea just how concentrated the wealth distribution actually is...."

Wake up America.


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71borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

cmrosko,Come on,who is it? Is it the unions? George Soros? Hollywood? United Nations? Heinz Co.? NBC?

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72borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Mr.Franko,One more thing about courage. As most of the posters here we hide behind our usernames. I do because when I used to send in my opinions to the Vindy editorial those that didn't like my opinions would look up my address in the phone book and make calls and once egged cars at my fathers address(same name). Now you have posters quitting the Vindy,taking personal shots at you and who nows what else these union mentality cowards will do because you don't agree with them. I know for a fact companies don't locate here for the most part because of the reputation of our union thuggery over the years. Quit the newspapers,flee the state(Wisc.),don't come to town hall meetings(Ryan) and make sneak attacks. These people are cowards. You have an abundance of courage. We need this badly out of our watchdogs(the media). The more you report and educate fairly will in turn make this community a better place. Thank you again.

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73mabellyne(12 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Amendment I


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Hmmm... "The right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." I'm reading that the people, and no where does this exclude the people who happen to work for the government, have the right to assemble and petition.

as·sem·ble verb \ə-ˈsem-bəl\
Definition of ASSEMBLE
transitive verb
1: to bring together (as in a particular place or for a particular purpose)

Definition of PETITION
transitive verb
: to make a request to : solicit
intransitive verb
: to make a request; especially : to make a formal written request

Assemble + petition = collective bargining.

I like this right, I think I'll keep it.

Even if you have never been part of a union, you have benefited from them. The eight hour workday, the right to a safe environment, equal opprotunity despite race or creed were all originally causes of orginazed labor unions.

Put aside whatever party you support and where you stand on social or political isssues for a momment and search your conscience. We all know there are better and fairer ways to balance the budget.

It is truly a domino effect; if one union falls, the rest shall be weakened.

If you can't make it to Columbus, email your represenatives, let them know how you feel. They all have easy links on their websites.

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74unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Borylie, I resent you calling me a thug and a coward, you don't know anything about me or the union members that I call my family. Have you ever done volunteer work for habitate for humanity, volunteered your time to build a ramp for an elderly lady so she can get in and out her house? How about organizing a spaghetti dinner to raise money for book bags full of school supplies for underprivilage children or ran a food drive to feed the homeless? These and many more are the types of "FREE" services that my union brothers and sisters do in our surrounding communities. Thugs and cowards we are not in fact I would dare say that anyone of my "FAMILY" would have more compassion, for people, in their little finger than you have in your whole body, Just your statement alone of calling us union thugs proves that there is no way you could know for a "FACT" that companies stay away from the valley because of unions!! The truth is this valley is alot better because of us. By the way my name is Ron Blatt and I wouldn't say anything on this blog that I wouldn't say to your face.

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75prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Reality Check: Public Workers Have Already NEGOTIATED Dozens of Concessions
The degree to which the media have accepted the claim that breaking the backs of public employees' unions is in fact related to trimming state budgets -- as opposed to the reality that state budget gaps are being used as a premise to declaw organized labor -- is sad but unsurprising.

Collective bargaining doesn't automatically lead to higher pay or benefits. Often the opposite is true. Just as private sector unions have no interest in killing the companies that employ their members, state workers know that tax revenues are down and have been negotiating various cost concessions left and right. The key word there is "negotiating." You know, via collective bargaining.

Anyway, as a reality-check, what follows is a long, admittedly boring list of concessions that Ohio's public workers have already made to buoy the state's finances.

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76mabellyne(12 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

By the way, all public employees pay taxes at the same rate as those privately employeed. The only exception is the Social Security tax ,we aren't eleigible to collect it and we contribute to our own pensions instead. I have have paid into Social Security from other jobs and am not complaining because I won't be getting it back.

I want a big, well funded government - one that can afford a great military, offers free public education to all, fixes the roads, comes to my rescue in times of fire and distress, protects me from criminals, feeds hungry children, provides an income for the disabled, etc. How much do you think you'll be paying for these services once the people have lost their voice and they are all privatized? The same greedy people in charge now will dominate the service industries as only they will have the money to invest. Once in control the price will go up or maybe by that time people will be so desperate they'll work for slave wages. Or maybe you'll be ok with watching children, the sick and the disabled become homeless and starve. Your choice.

The deficit will not be fixed by taxing working and middle class persons more or taking away anyone's rights. It can be decreased by increasing taxes for the wealthy - and I don't just mean everyone making more than $250,000 a year. It isn't fair for those families to pay at the same rate as someone who makes millions a year.

Please don't waste time telling me how we need those corporate giants to create jobs. Tax and tariff their goods made in countries without worker representation and fair wages until they are forced to price competitively with local manufacturers. Suddenly new jobs will appear. Somehow I think it will be the loyal, local business oiwners who will be the first to expand and start hiring more people.

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77prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

(AFSCME Ohio Council 8 )Furlough days negotiated with: City of Stow, city of Akron, Summit County Sherriff and Fiscal Office, Stark County Building Department, Cuyahoga Falls, Lawrence County Jobs and Family Services, Scioto County Jobs and Family Services, Butler County Maintenance, City of Cleveland, City of Dayton, City of Columbus, Elyeria Health District, Cuyahoga County Jobs and Family Services, City of Euclid, Fairview Park City, North Olmstead, Brooklyn, North Royalton, Richland County, Richland County Clerk of Courts, Richland County Solid Waste, Columbus Health Department, Clark County Jobs and Family Services, City of Dayton, Dayton Clerk of Courts, Central State University, City of Toledo, Seneca County Jobs and Family Services, University of Toledo, Lucas County Coroner  
32 separate public employers in AFSCME Ohio Council 8 have switched to high deductable health savings accounts through negotiations for large savings in health care costs
City of Toledo:  Cost savings of over $500,000 including elimination of 3% pension pickup (Equates to 3.5% loss in pay) and substantial increases in health insurance employee contributions
City of Olmstead: 21 unpaid furlough days in 2010 and an additional 21 unpaid days in 2011
City of Brooklyn: layoffs, furlough days, and longevity reduced by 50%
City of Dayton: 5 unpaid furlough days in 2010, 35 fulltime jobs converted to part-time jobs, substantial increases in employee health insurance co-pays
Richland County Employees: 26 unpaid furlough days in 2010, plus elimination of $2,000 employer contribution to employee health savings accounts
Marion County Engineer: Elimination of $4,000 contribution to employee savings accounts
Summit County Sheriff and Fiscal Office: 15 unpaid furlough days in 2010
Lucas county Coroner: 2009-2010, 13 unpaid furlough days
Mahoning County Maintenance: 26 unpaid furlough days
Lawrence County Jobs and Family Services: 26 unpaid furlough days in 2010 and loss of 3% wage increase
Ashland County Jobs and Family Services:  reduced work week from 40 hours to 37 hours a week
Central State University: 8 unpaid furlough daysOhio Civil Service Employees Association (OCSEA) 
Among numerous concessionary contracts, OCSEA helped Gov. Strickland balance the budget by taking 10 unpaid furlough days, agreeing to a pay freeze, and increasing our health care to save the state about $340 million 

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78prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Ohio Association of Public School Employees (OAPSE)
Over the last two years, more than half (125-plus) of the contracts negotiated by OAPSE locals included wage freezes.  Health care costs to employees continued to rise with nearly one-third of new contracts also including health care concessions in addition to wage freezes. 
Many OAPSE local unions have been without wage hikes for years, including: 
Salem City Schools: 8 years without a wage increase

Austintown Local Schools: 6 years without a wage increase plus a few years back AEA and OAPSE opened their contracts to save the school district 2.7 million dollars in health care cost.

Leetonia Exempted Village Schools: 6 years without a wage increase

Oregon City Schools: 4 years without a pay increase and health care concessions

Marlington Local Schools:  4 years without a wage increase

Lima Head Start: 4 years without a wage increase and family health care was eliminated

Lordstown Local Schools: 3 years of pay freezes

Northwest Local Schools: 3 years without a wage increase

Claymont City Schools: 3 years without a pay increase

Sandy Valley Local Schools: 3 years without a wage increase

Rock Hill Local Schools:  3 year wage freeze and health insurance concessions

Garfield Heights City Schools: 3 years without a wage increase 

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79prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

All my comments are public knowledge, any of you that are uneducated in the area of public employees can get on line and research any and all contracts that are negotiated between the employer and the union.
The information above in my 3 post were written by Josh Holland he did his research and so can YOU!

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80unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Jessie, I guess you have not seen all of the fine examples of how Unions have worked with their employers to save money, espically in the public sector. all you keep saying is that we take as much as we want. If that were true your taxes would be a whole lot more because of the way John Kasich and his wall st. buddies screwed us all. But of course the public employees must sacrifice it all to ballance the budget. We are willing to do our part what are you and Jon Kasich willing to sacrifice?

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81mabellyne(12 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The rights started with the unions - including the union of thirteen colonies that dared to petition then defy a king. That's why certain politicians know the place to start taking rights away is to destory the voice of the people and their rights to organize. Today, the public employees - tomorrow, everyone else.

Geez! Didn't you pay any attention in history class? (And everyone blames the teachers?!)

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82borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

unionproud,Thank you for all the community work that you do. And as Mr. Blatt it's nice for you to know that those of us on the right do not stoop to the levels I previously described and therefore you can give your name. You accused me of not knowing you and yet you come right back at me personally without knowing me.??? union there's always exceptions and perhaps you're one,however it's my opinion(oh oh)that the unions and gangs are only brave when there's more than one and normally like hundreds to show up at picket lines so that they can intimidate(Columbus?). Mr. Franko is an army of one and you can already see what the left is doing to try and silence him. I like most know the need for unions,just don't like the way they do business. I owned a business and at one time considered Youngstown. A councilman at a meeting I had with the city asked me how many minorities I was going to employ and if I was against unions. I located in Niles. A customer of mine wanted to put part of his business in this area. He wanted to know all he could about the union mindset here as he was from New Jersey and had his fill of the union up there. He got educated and never located here. And approximately 40 jobs. So I do know for a fact. So I know that there's strength in numbers and this is what makes unions effective. However,intimidation is your biggest tool,not problem solving. And one more thing,why should union dues go 95% to the democrat party? Why can't union due payers have a choice where their money goes? Every time a public sector employee gets a raise I have less in my pocket. That's another fact. Have a nice evening. I won't be trying to find your house.

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83mabellyne(12 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Well Jessie you are showing your true colors now. "Low class, union type insults" You consider those of us with differing opinions low class, beneath you. No surprise there.

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84unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Borylie, don't thank me for my community service it's these unselfish acts that I needed to bring to your attention since you decided to declare all union people thugs and cowards. Your right all I know about you is that you catagorize all people based on a perception that you may have of just a few. You see there are good and bad in all groups, even the so called moral righties. Rush Limbaugh was a drug addict, but that does not mean I think you are one. Bob Ney went to jail for breaking the law, that does not mean I think you should go to jail. John Kasich and his wall street buddies screwed us all while taking big bonuses at Lehman Bros., but that doesn't mean I think you would do the same. As far as your friend not bringing his business here to Youngstown, if he got his information from you I'm sure he or nobody else would want to locate to an area full of "thugs and cowards" It seams to me if you truely cared about this area, you would try and tell him about it positives. Oh I forgot in your mind there are not any. I GET IT!!!

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85unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Borylie, I must also address your last question. Union members dues do not go to any politician. That is against the law. Union members who wish to paticipate in the political process give voluntary contributions to a political action fund. So you see members do have a choice. Give to the PAC fund and except what campaigns they donate to or don't give any money and donate to the campaign fund of your choice. Another misconception of yours!!!

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86prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Jesse, I must not have been very clear in my last post! Any and all information is public knowledge you have the abilitiy to get that info with just a phone call to a public school of your choice.
I being a public employee pay a percentage of my health care and retirement, my total package wages, benefits amount to $45.000.00 and I have been with the same public employer for 23 years, if I would retire in 2 years I would reveive approx $1,200.00 per month which a part of that would go for health care, This is how it will be for 95% of public workers. With that amount of income we public employees are sure to live the "good life" after retirement.
By the way your "insults" are "low class"
you refer to fellow human beings as "slugs" is it that you can relate to slugs because you are as slimmy and sticky as they are?

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87prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Couldn't of said it better myself! The cuts should start with our politicians, The deficit would probably be cut down by half or more!

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88AntiFascist(61 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Fascism! Fascism! Fascism! Come on everyone, chant it with me!

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89prouddemocrate(7 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

It all depends in what direction you are heading in! But then there is only one dictator I can think of!

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90unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

On my way to Columbus to fight for the Middle class. If any of you Fox News, Teabagger, Millionaire Republican, Kool-aid drinkers finally realize that you are just pawns for that rich man cause to get a two class system in this country, we would love to have you.

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91borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

unionproud,Enjoy yourself in Columbus. Keep it civil. When us Tea Partiers gathered we were described as racist troublemakers,rowdy and uncivil. This was the attempt by your ilk to marginalize,demonize,critisize and intimidate this group to quiet them. You and your ilk believe only those with your beliefs should be heard. Where's all the media now covering the behavior of these union thugs,being bussed in from all over? Make sure you're with as many of your ilk as possible so you can show your courage. I'm not going to waste anymore time with you as you are in my opinion incoherent and definetly not open to someone else's views and opinions. Talk about a kool-aid drinker. And spin all you want where your union dues go,you have no say,follower.

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92unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Just got back from Columbus after spending time with appro. 25,000 members of my family. Our mighty voices were heard and the chicken s**t Natzi's eer I mean Republicans canceled their meeting and decided to meet tomorrow! It doesn't matter though because this is never going to go away. Borylie just so you know it was very civil, not even one arrest. Not bad for a bunch of thugs. Of course I was with teachers, you know the ones that educate your kids, nurses, you know the ones that care for the sick, policeman, you know the ones that keep your neighborhoods safe, and the fire fighters, you know just like the ones that ran into the World Trade Center on 9/11 while the rich Republicans like John Kasich ran up Wall Street with their bags of money kicking anybody who got in their way. And thank you so much for putting me in the same catigory as them, that made me so proud. Sorry you feel compeled to give up on our little debate but I figured as much!!

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93borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

unionproud,What did you think,that we were going to become pen pals? Good luck and take care.

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94cmrosko(19 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Rasmussen polls frequently show rightwing bias




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95unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Borylie, No did not think that we would become pen pals but it is clear to me that all you righty teabaggers are good as long as you are blogging each other and everyone is agreeing with each other but as soon as someone challanges your thoughts you are just like John Kasich run and hide until the next time you can hit someone in the back for daring to try and make a decient living and be able to support their families. HOW DARE THEM PUBLIC EMPLOYEES FOR WANTING TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES, OH BUT BY THE WAY WHILE WE CUT YOUR GUTS OUT WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD CONTINUE TO PROVIDE THE SAME WORLD CLASS SERVICE THAT I HAVE BECOME ACCOSTOMED TO. You baggers make me want to puke.

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96VINDYAK(1824 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Loyalty...it all boils down to loyalty.

Loyalty today has turned to greed, as employees are more loyal to their union than they are to their employer.

I recently read an article written in an Amish newspaper discussing "American" workers who have no loyalty to their employer and cannot be trusted, thus the unloyal employee is a cancer to the employer and should be let go. This article goes on to say one cannot be loyal to two different people. If an employer has no loyal employees, that employer cannot operate efficiently, so he must let the unloyal employee go as he is a danger to the business. Now, this seems pretty harsh by today's standards, but in its basic form it makes a lot of sense.

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97Vote_Them_All_Out(13 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

What a great article, finally someone who tells it like it is even in this Democratic crazy part of the state! While SB5 doesn’t fix the state overnight it is a great start and Kasich has said this is just the beginning. Hopefully this state can prosper once again under his leadership as he has already done more in 2 months than his predecessor did in 4 years!

Cashmoney – you stated that our taxes won’t go down as a result of this bill and while you are correct it may prevent an increase in our taxes. Very simple economics here; there are two ways to balance a budget #1 increase revenue (i.e. taxes) or cut spending and thank God Kasich realizes that cutting spending is the solution and not raising taxes!

Hopefully by the end of next week SB5 will be signed into law!

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98apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The public employees who have been feeding from the golden trough certainly can't like the fact that the citizens are finally waking up to the truth about their "public servants".

These people have been raping the taxpayers for decades with the help of the managers, administrators, and elected officials all of whom benefited from the same giveaways.

Police Chief Nichols of Boardman should thank his lucky stars for that pension of $60,000 and then getting rehired by Boardman at another $60,000 all in the name of "SAVING" the taxpayers money!!! How they can sell that is amazing. As if the pension money somehow coming from Columbus (via Boardman) comes from thin air. Factor in nearly free health care and you've got him making $150,000 a year. All from the pockets of the taxpayers.

Boardman's trustees think they can fool the voters with a minimal health care change that "SAVES" us pocket change when the 24 carat gold trough needs serious restructuring.

Then to talk about putting the levy on the August ballot at a cost of at least $50,000 and trying to claim that August gives them more time to educated the voters about the need. It's basically giving the citizens who voted last November and failed that levy the middle finger and saying we're going to disregard that vote and try to limit the number of voters who are likely to vote no. A blatant circumvention of Democracy. It's time to reopen some contracts in Boardman and quit raking the taxpayers for an ever increasing and unsustainable property tax burden.

The problem isn't revenues and we don't need sales taxes or income taxes to SOLVE this problem. We need fiscal restraint and givebacks from people who have been extracting far too much from people making far less and who have health care and pensions not even remotely as good as the public sector.

Todd Franko is spot on with this commentary.

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99Fattkidd(45 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

I have a solution... we can eliminate all state, local and property taxes and everyone can home-school their kids, put out their own fires, plow their own roads... and pave them too, and they can police their own neighborhoods! Quit relying on gov't to provide vital services for you and do it yourself!

Heck, while we're at it, what do we even need State gov't for? Get rid of it. Waste of money.

Or, we can just privatize all public services and subscribe to professional police companies and fire companies and send our kids to private schools and colleges. According to the experts, that'll be WAY cheaper than what gov't can offer the public. For profits are ALWAYS cheaper than dedicate, civic minded public entities.

For those who can't afford to pay for private protection and education, well... you're bottom feeders anyway. Once we send all the Mexicans packing, we'll need people to pick fruit. You and your kids can spend quality time together in the orchards eaking out your existance so the rest of us educated folk can have cheap fruit.

The world will always need toilet scrubbers and ditch diggers. Why waste money educating these people. It doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge to clean stains off the john.

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100borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Question for all of you that believe unions should remain in control of bargaining by striking,intimidating and influencing elections with union dues money.
1) Should the TEA Party be allowed to organize,collect dues and shut down vital services if our demands are not met?
2) Should the TEA Party be allowed to assemble?
3) Should the TEA Party be allowed to exist?
4) Should only the unions represent the middle class?
5) Should unions represent all private and public sector workers?
Please only intelligent replies,no ranting,incoherent and hateful rhetoric. Thank you.

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101unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The demise of the middle class has begun at the Ohio State House. If any of you know a Republican (Natzi) or a teabagger you should send them a thank you card saying: "Thank you for all that you did to help create a new generation of working poor." The rich mans world is going to be a whole lot better off.

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102apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Unionproud, the middle class is doing just fine thank you.

Unions have been trying to organize Walmart workers, foreign car plants, and other industries and have been rebuffed by those industries workers. If union membership is so good, how come everyone isn't clamoring to join? If the world is ending as you claim, wouldn't it be easy to get people to join?

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103George412(161 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The difference between the tea party and the SB5 protesters is that that latter is protesting the passing of legislation, and the former is organized based purely to be a thorn in the side of the current administration. SB5 protesters have legitimate and articulate points about the state of labor and the middle class in this country, whether you agree or disagree. Much of what the tea party posits is based on exaggerations, outright lies, and utter ignorance of both our government's history and current practices.

That said, everyone has a first amendment right to speak up. That's America.

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104borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Why is the unions trying to increase membership by taking away the secret ballot? Intimidation,pure and simple. What happens if you try and quit a union while you still work at that place of business? You can't,collective bargaining says you must join and stay a member. TEA Party members are free to do what they want. Union members are not free,quit kidding yourselves. And you don't think that democrats don't pass legislation to benefit unions? What do you people want,a union controlled country? My questions were answered not one by one yet. Maybe me asking to leave out incoherent rhetoric eliminated most of the posters.

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105unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

The Dems. passed social security, medicare, medicade, unemployment copensation, family medical leave, that is just off the top of my head. These benefit all workers both union and non-union. Wake up people. What legislstion have the Rep. (Natzi's) passed that helped working people.

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106borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

President Obama's children attend the most private and privileged school in D.C. President Obama's new Chief Of Staff just left Wall Street. Where did Governor Kasich run off and hide? He's been all around the state and been here multiple times. The unions got President Obama elected. Trumka brags about his daily visits and conversations with the White House. Andy Stern was a regular visitor. I don't care if the union runs your life,I don't like that it's influencing mine. He's been paying the unions back every day since he's been elected. Come on you people that are so smart and indepndent,answer my questions one by one,no name calling(Nazi's) as one brainiac likes to call us that doesn't follow blindly. The union tells you what to say with union mailings and you gullible people repeat their spin like if you knew what's going on. You people can't answer these questions because it flies in the face of what you've been trained to say. Followers.

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107Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Proud of what ? . . . ..

Bill Clinton taxed Social Security and Unemployment Compensation benefits . Barack Hussein Obama championed a $1,500. yearly fee on the uninsured .

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108unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

It all comes down to this. The Unions were created because of people like John Kasich who took advantage of workers not only on wages but by making them work long hours in unsafe working conditions. Many workers died because of those unsafe conditions. The Unions stopped all of that when we were able to sit across the table and bargain for wages, working conditions, and terms of employment. Everything that was that was negotiated by the Unions were passed on to non-union workers, not out of the goodness of the employers heart, but to keep the Union from organizing their workers. If workers are happy then they would not be inclined to contact a union to help them gain the same level of compensation that the unionized workers had. THAT IS HOW THE MIDDLE CLASS GOT STARTED!! Once the Unions are gone people we will be taking this country back 100 years. Think about it!!!
You truely don't realize what a mistake you are making by following the policies of these rich idiots. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. If you are and hourly worker or you want your children to be able to have as good of life or better than yours, that means having a diecent place to live, a car to drive, and able to support their family, and yes maybe even take them on a vacation once in a while, don't believe the nonsense that some of these people are spewing. They are taking people down the wrong path. Everything I see written on this blog that is anti-union, you can hear by Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Rilley and all of the other Fox News cronies. Don"t listen to them.

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109Stan(9923 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

"Bill Clinton taxed Social Security and Unemployment Compensation benefits . Barack Hussein Obama championed a $1,500. yearly fee on the uninsured ."

The libs sure did get into the pockets of the rich and are championing the middle class . . . .. The libs are scavengers who will prey on anyone for their money .

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110borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Answer my questions you know it alls. Yeah,don't listen to Rush,etc., listen to you. HaHaHaHa,I'm peeing my pants. You people need a union because mediocrity is all you ever hope to attain. If you strove to do better you'd be looking to make more than the guy next to you. You people need the unions to keep you at your job because in the non-union world people make it to the levels of the rich people you so despise by performing at high levels to keep their jobs. Based on performance,not the union keeping your job. Once again,mediocrity and everbody getting the same pay and benefits is the unions goal. You people keep bringing up what unions have done for workers. I agree,100%,but they've become way too powerful and like government need to be reined in. Followers.

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111borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

gero,Good for you and take a chill pill from your medicine cabinet. You're rant/type is giving me a headache. You'd like to answer my questions,you just don't have the answers. You really dislike Governor Kasich. Two months in office and he's trying to get the entire state,all of us to be more prosperous. Changes are needed. No one likes changes except babies with poopie diapers,especially if you've been getting what you want when you want it. So get over your neurotic state of mind and give our governor a chance. Hate has almost consumed you because you can't answer my questions and it's not your guy/party that's going to fix Ohio. Get over it,we will all benefit.

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112republicanRick(1743 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Union proud , if Dems are responsible for all those things, thank a Republican for creating the business atmosphere that enable all to thrive -- you can't have a union until you have a money generating business. Thanks to us for creating a strong defense to keep you yellow bellies safe.

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113borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

gero,I hope this thread is soon put to bed,but a 'brief" response to your post. I used to be a business owner,a start up that I used our life savings to start and thru hard,honest work and having very good employees around me,we were quite successful. No need for a union as I paid them what I could and treated them with respect. I'm basically a good,pragmatic person with good common sense,good sense of humor and the ability to see both sides of an issue. I don't like politicians as everything is getting themselves re-elected. However,being a traditionist and a conservative I believe the republicans best represent my views. I believe in personal responsibilities,less government,lower taxes,letting the working person keep more of their money and not supporting those that choose not to work or contribute. There's nothing wrong with being rich or well to do,in most cases it takes a lot of work,investment and risk. All of that should be rewarded,not knocked. We talk about the good work that nurses,teachers,police and firemen do,well doctors,business owners,engineers,scientists,accountants,etc. also do good work, are not unionized and deserve respect,and to keep a lot of their earnings. None of these people should be paid the same,the better doctor should make more. Unions have been in control for decades,they helped start Las Vegas. They had their run and as we all know the states and the country is deep in debt. Let's try a different approach for a while,let's give the republican governors in many states a chance. Have a nice night.

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114unionproud(26 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

republicanRick the Dems are responsible for all of those things and you what if you and Borylie are so against them maybe you both could tell our government that you don't want them so that someone who appriecates what has legislated on their behalf can have yours. I think it would be great if all you teabaggers live on an island by yourselves so you can cut each others throats and leave hard working TRUE Americans alone!!!

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115Fattkidd(45 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

borylie... I'm not sure if you are aware of this but the unions have pretty much been dead for oh... about 30yrs now. Only 7% of the private sector belongs to a union. Overall, if public employees are counted, it's around 12%. So, how is it that such a small number of people, who really don't make very much money, are the ones responsible for the economic woes we're in?

Give me a break and quit listening to these billionaire traitors who are really the ones in control and have done their best to kill the middle class so they could keep ever larger shares of production for themselves.

This country is no less wealthy than at any time before. Actually, our GDP has steadily risen year after year after year. We are STILL the most wealthy nation in the world. The problem is, ALL of the gains in production/GDP over the last 40yrs has gone to the top 1% while the wages of the bottom 50% have declined... the bottom 90% stagnated.

This is not the fault of the unions. This is the fault of unbridled greed at the very top. How DARE you try to blame the economic woes of this nation on the working poor!?

If wages had even only kept up with inflation these last 30-40yrs, the middle class would be doing better and tax revenue would be sufficient to pay ALL of our bills without having to cut salaries, lay people off or cut services.

But, a greedy few at the top have convinced useful fools like you that they deserve ALL of the spoils of production while at the same time having their taxes reduced to the lowest they've been in 100 yrs!

We've had 30 yrs of tax reductions on the rich... 30 yrs of deregulation... 30yrs of union busting... 30yrs of 'free trade'... all under the promise that it would lead to more jobs, higher wages and a higher living standard for all!

Well, IT HASN'T WORKED OUT THAT WAY! Where are all the jobs, man!? Taxes keep going lower and lower on these rich scum and the jobs keep disappearing!

8million manufacturing jobs lost under Bush and 42,000 mfg plants closed! In 8 yrs! But, we need lower taxes on the rich!?

John Stockton, Reagan's Budget director has even admitted that 'trickle down', supply side economics DOESN'T WORK!

When will the rest of you finally figure that out? When it's too late?

Now, the GOP wants to basically end public education and subsidze rich folks who send their kids to private schools!? That's what Walker has just proposed in WI!

Get that!? These greedy bastards haven't stolen enough from us, now they want us to pay to send their kids to private school while the public schools become nothing less than glorified prisons!

Conservative? Hardly. Greedy and evil is more like it.

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116borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Fatperson,I'm done with all of you. I'll back the job creators,you figure out how to bring the jobs back to this country and then figure out how to make Ohio more competitive. Take all the money you want from the "fat cats",and let the unions create jobs. They can't even increase union jobs by your own admission. I started a business that employed people,why don't you start a union and employ businesses. Follower.

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117borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

geromajor,AverageCitizen,ImUrPo,and Etc.= Followers. Good bye.

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118republicanRick(1743 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

What sympathy I had for public service workers has all but evaporated after reading the above comments and watching their goons protest violently In Wiisconsin and Ohio. Union proud, a teacher, is full of hate and loathing. ImurPO is a government worker filled with rage and hate for anyone who doesn't agree with him.
I've resolved now to vote against all school and police levys until some common sense is drilled into these thugs heads.

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119borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Average, It's hard to leave the lemmings unattended. You're average because that's all you can be. No matter if you're a good worker or a bad worker you make the same. You're all average.

ImUrPO,brilliant post. Let's see if you're capable of intelligently expressing you're profound knowledge of what's going on. In my post #155 I stated why I'm a republican. Why are you a democrat? Don't be embarrassed to admit you're one and be clear with your answers.

geromajor,you keep on saying that I'm name calling. Other than saying you're were neurotic which was an accurate description based on your CAP laced rants. In fact after I chastised you, your posts became a little more sane.

I'd like to be finished with you followers,but because I'm an optimist I keep thinking that logic and common sense will make some of you see the light. But,I guess most of you are wearing blindfolds. But, I may keep trying,no promises, that I will continue to help you all.

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120borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Average, I don't know where you got the idea that I paid minimum wages and took advantage of our employees. My philosophy is that you pay your hard workers and dependable people well above the norm. Don't want to lose them. Some others make above minimum because they 've been there awhile and contribute. Others haven't proved themselves yet or are there to collect a check and maybe not show up tomorrow. These people make the minimum. Bonuses are based for some on longevity,others on merit. All employees are treated with respect,regardless if they've been their one day or twenty years. In a start up operation everybody,including myself, starts off with less until the company can survive and grow. Many more startups don't survive than do and for many reasons. If an owner is greedy than chances are he won't surround himself with good people and fail. Most of the posters and unfortunately a lot of people in this world hold business owners in low esteem. Perhaps some of that is merited. But,without entrepreneurs/risk takers and those striving to be rich,where would jobs come from? This is what I meant about job creators. A doctor basically starts in grade school getting the grades necessary to get into med school. Then pays a great deal of money again to earn a medical degree,internships and perhaps starting a private practise. Now well into their thirties they start to make good money and by all accounts are now rich. And who does the politicians want to penalize? Yes,taxpayers like the doctors. Nurses,firemen,teachers and the police are all needed and respected,but more than a doctor? Whose looking out for the doctors and the rich? Unions were needed and to some extent are still needed. I just don't like how they coduct business. Public unions and their chokehold on taxpayers has to cease or be reined in. There's enough words here,hope I answered your question.

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121JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

A follow up to Jessiedavid's mention of the pension debt, Ohio is the second worst State when it comes to unfunded pensions per capita.



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122borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Come on Average. There's a 175 posts here and a lot of them are telling you that a few of the reasons why we're debating. Unions and union mentality. Plus the mob controlled this area for decades,the democrats likewise. Democrats don't believe in job creation,just jobs that the unions are involved in. It's just not our area either,Ohio because of higher corporate taxes,higher worker comp rates and exodus of entrenpeneurs has a had a great effect on new business not flocking to Ohio. Packard was losing jobs to Mississippi during the 80's. Another reason,albiet minor,is that at one time manufacturers needed to locate near rivers,this is no longer the case. Being in warmer climates is better for the bottom line. All the more reasons why Ohio has to make it very attractive for businesses to locate here. Average,appreciate your fair and sensible retort.

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123VINDYAK(1824 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Back in the day when my wife and I both worked as salaried employees with good benefits and great pay, we did not object to public employees earning equal pay and great benefits and we did not object to paying taxes to support the higher cost of living of state employees.

But, things changed. The economy tanked and my wife and I both lost our jobs and ended up taking lesser jobs just to survive. I now make $20,000 less and my wife took a $55,000 yearly loss with her new job. We had to re-adjust our finances, our living and our expenses. We must be frugal with expenses and now we are faced with increases in the cost of services, taxes and daily living expenses. With the State of Ohio facing a 8 billion deficit, we cannot afford a tax increase to pay for this. We applaud the Gov for taking a stand and attempting to balance the books without a tax increase. We also encourage the Gov to decrease the size of our state government and get rid of all non-essential employees. This massive government spending has got to stop and union people must begin to do their share in our recovery efforts. Its not all about you, its about all of us.

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124JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

"But yet unions are still considered the evil empire, even though they represent only 12% of the workforce."

Here's why:


Thugs like this won't help the public sector unions win over many private sector people.

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125JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Average, the point being made is that overall income for all employees has decreased, thus decreasing the revenue the State receives. The State was two options: increase taxes to cover it's expenses, or reduce it's expenses - the public employees are part of the expenses.

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126JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

All it takes is a few bad apples to tarnish the image of the group.
This kind of behaivor has been tolerated in The Valley, and look at the poor economic condition that it is in.

To further expand on Vindyak's point:

"100,000 Government Jobs Gained, 7 Million Private Sector Jobs Lost"

("from January 2000 through December 2009")


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127JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

"Over the past 2 weeks, between Columbus and Wisconson the news has stated many how well behaved the crowds are. "

"Unfortunately, we have documented instances where people defecated in the building. We have documented instances where they have written on the walls"


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128JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Average, you conveniantly left out some info - nice try:

"But in July - when the final year of a three-year labor contract begins - those reductions are scheduled to end. That means a hit of more than $250 million to state coffers, the state Office of Budget and Management says"


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129JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

It's alwas a temporary solution that the Unions offer:

"But on July 1, concessions the employees gave up nearly two years ago will start to be reimbursed or restored"

"About $50 million for personal time that could not be taken will be paid in a lump sum in August. An additional $30 million in bypassed "step" salary increases, $150 million in pay cuts from furlough days and an undetermined amount in sick days also will be restored, but not paid in a lump sum"


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130JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

You sound like a teacher.

It's worked in the private sector for a very long time. Only the lazy or incompetent have anything to worry about.

Love how you change the topic when you can't provide any sources to support your argument.

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131JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Average, I believe the Vindy would have left out the part that I mentioned.

Obama signed off to continue the Bush tax cuts. I realize many want the wealthy to pick up the tab, but why should they be punished if others are also getting the cuts.
Don't know if I can find the link, but it's something like the top 20% pays the majority of the taxes - which makes sense.

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132JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

I agree, the top 20% makes the majority income and the CEO compensation is out of hand.

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133JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Somewhat related to CEO compensation, I got thinking about Obama's statement regarding the NFL-labor issue and that there is plenty of money for both owners and players.
My thought was how about the fans, and making it more affordable to go to these games. They seem to easily forget the other stakeholders. Or in the CEO's case, the consumers.

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134fd6636(289 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

did an of you see the article bout the fired workers burning to death the excutive of the company who fired them????? keep screwing with the workers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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1351970mach1(1005 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago



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136JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

One company I used to work for provided free turkeys for all of it's employees at Thanksgiving. One year when the company was struggling financially there was talk that there wouldn't be any Turkeys given out. One union member claimed they should file a grievance to get those free turkeys because it was "past practice"

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137borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 5 months ago

Because of all the schooling I've done on this thread,I'm now being forced to join the Teachers Union.

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138JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

marianne, nice post.

Honestly, I don't believe the majority backing SB5 have any issues with the pay the public sector employees receive.
It's the refusal to pick up more of the insurance cost (which you can't expect the employer to keep covering the tab for the rising costs), pension contributions that are above what the private sector receives, automatic pay raises when the State is receiving less income (lower taxes received in bad economic times) and ridiculous perks such as being compensated for unused sick days.

Do you really believe a police officer, fireman or teacher would get payed $8/hour? If no one is applying to these jobs, then the pay rate will naturally increase until these positions can be filled - supply and demand.

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139ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

There you go AverageCitizen, my point exactly,

"If you get sick and need 3-4 weeks off at some point in your career it would be good to have time built up to take off work. Most people can't go very long without that weekly paycheck."

Where in any private sector job is this a benefit? I will answer that for you, Nowhere, non-existent. this is a benefit that we just cannot afford.

Let me show you an example, say the company "A" hired a person for $12.50 per hour 15 years ago, now they are making say $24.50 per hour and have 20 accumulated sick days to use.

Now they become ill and need time off, a total of 3 weeks or 15 days of paid days off.

So they not only put a hardship on the company by not being there and requiring them to make adjustments in the work schedules to continue to fill customers orders, they also have to pay this employee $2,940.00 in sick pay, which most of the days were accumulated when this employee did not even make the wage that they do now, how do you say this is fair to the employer?

In the case we are discussing the employer is the taxpayer, and we just cannot afford these types of benefits any longer, we really never could, but some arbitrator felt we could, and this is the reason collective bargaining needed fixed, not eliminated as some want to say just adjusted to fix this insanity.

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140JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average, the point is if you don't need them, you shouldn't get paid for them, and there's too much abuse when accumulating sick days are allowed.

Here's a true example of abuse of sick days that happened this week. An Austintown Fitch teacher called of sick Mon., Tue. and Wed. this week. Why? Because her married son's house flooded from last weeks storms, and she wanted to help out. I have no issue for wanting to help, but not at the taxpayers expense! Take unpaid leave.

I think every company I have worked for offered a "salary continuance" or a short-term disability, where if you were off more than a few days because of a serious illness the salary continued. The benefit is there if you have an illness, but it doesn't allow abuses for people who need a day off here or there

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141JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

"Is it better to stay home and get paid for sick days. "

Are you referring to someone who isn't really sick? If so, that is waste by someone very unprofessional. Paid sick days are used for when you are sick, as you mention, the need for a full paycheck. These aren't bonus vacation days!

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142borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average,The idiot remark that was made to one officer is old news,just like Hagan calling a black taxpayer "Buckwheat" is now old news. You're getting a little full of yourself. Take a breath,take a break and come back to tommorow. You took an old story of one incident and turned it into a six paragraph rant.

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143borylie(953 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average,Two days ago our U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown called or compared people with different opinions than his to Hitler,Mussolini and Muarabak. Are you're rants reserved just for republicans? Then all you are is a partisian ideologue,offering nothing to intelligent debate. Most of your requests for answers here have been answered in an intelligent,thoughtful way by the other posters. How about you responding in a like manner. You don't want your name of Average to become Below Average,do you? Meaningful dialogue is always appreciated,not you're trying to predict the future with nonsensical diatribe.

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144ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

But Average, you fail to realize or recognize the fact that the averrage shopper is not willing to pay for products that companies here in this country make to provide this magical decent wage you talk about.

They run to the dollar sores and Wally World to avoid supporting their fellow local business, instead they choose to send their dollars overseas. And I hate to tell you a UNION has nothing to do with that, t is the other way, they force companies to pass on the additional costs to the consumers and then they choose to buy the less expensive product by choice.

Why don't the unions stand at the door of Wally World and shame those people into buying their union products? OH!, they cant because they would be picketing themselves, I know I have seen a UAW jacket or two there myself.

So we find ourselves into vicious cycle or a race to the bottom, spending our way into bankruptcy. We just cannot afford these high wages and overly generous benefits no matter how much we would like to pay them. Reductions in pay to employ more will get us back to where we need to be. Reasonable benefits that do not include 0 deductibles, accumulated vacation and sick days among others has to go, we just cannot afford them, and probably never could.

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145ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

See Average, what the rest of us commoners do in these instances of having to deal with extended illnesses and we just cannot afford to lose our pay, is we use an insurance policy from companies like Aflac, to fill the gap.

I hate to tell you the people we are talking about especially where I am concerned, the Boardman Township Police and Fire can very well afford a policy like this very well on their own based on the salaries posted on the website www.boardmanfacts.com, go there and check them out for yourself. Not so average is what you will find, especially when you add about 30% more for the additional benefits they receive.

And yes salary continuances are quite common in corporate America, they are not the demons that only a union can fix that you describe, they show quite a bit of compassion for the workers who have devoted their lives to them and have always have done what is best for the company and their fellow workers.

Do you know most of the concessions given by the unions today does not even effect them, only the new hires or low seniority workers, see they throw them under the bus to keep what they got, and screw the rest, they are not their responsibility, let them get their own is the mid set from what I have seen lately.

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146Jake(112 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Is this really vindy.com? Did reality actually intrude on the union mythology of the "valley"?

It would be nice if Youngstown woke up and stopped blindly voting for government union hacks, in the name of "solidarity", but I suspect the collective stupidity of the locals is too much to overcome.

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147ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Huh, Average say:

"I understand, people shop at discount stores because they only make minimal wages. Oil companies make BILLIONS each quarter, they should be paying attendents a whole lot more at service stations. Wallstreet banks pay there bank tellers pennies while making dollars for themselves."

And how does that fix the situation we find ourselves of not being able to afford the ridiculous benefit and wage packages that the elected democrats handed out without even trying to see if we could sustain them?

Maybe you could propose some solutions of your own, instead of attacking those that want to rein in and control the spending. Did you check out the salaries on www.boardmanfacts.com yet. I will give you some more time to do that and will be waiting for some solutions on how to fix all of this and still be able to had out the huge paydays at retirement and those 6 figure officers patrolling the streets.

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148ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

So your solution just made a gallon of milk 3 times what a gallon of gas costs, and don't think about a new pair of shoes this year, the car needs that $8K transmission repairs.

Oh and the quick trip to Mickey D's just broke the bank for the family dinner tonight, the bill? Yea $175.00 plus now you have to tip the widow person before they will pass the food through the window. better not be less that the standard 25% or you will be labeled a non union lover.

Have you ever thought that we think that the greedy ones are the public unions? They are also getting farther and farther form the reality that the rest of us live in.

As I have stated before, I am not against decent wages and benefits, only when we can afford them and that we can sustain them all the way through their retirement, right now we cannot afford to go down that road with them, they will break us and our children will suffer for it. That is what the Governor was describing when he said he was doing this for the kids, not that lame crap you sling out there hoping it will stick.

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149ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

With out the dramatics, "Kathie Lee" comments,
we both want basically the same things, just maybe a little different strategies.

I truly believe these adjustments in the collective bargaining may be a little far reaching and probably will be renegotiated back the other way in time, but don't you think for one moment that it was the unions that felt that the needed to reach for the moon and low and behold they achieved what the asked for, now it is back the other way.

So I want to leave you Average, with the thought that we all want is what is best for our children and we can only hope we achieve that.

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150mabellyne(12 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

"I truly believe these adjustments in the collective bargaining may be a little far reaching and probably will be renegotiated back the other way in time."

Ytown and others:

How would we renegotiate for the return of our first ammendment rights if we have given up the right to negotiate?

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151JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

What about us SB5 supporters1st Ammendment rights as the taxpayer?

You get to keep wage negotiation. But it's apparent the public workers are too irresponsable to negotiate benefits. 1st Amendent Rights for the Taxpayer.

Ohio is the second worst State when it comes to unfunded pensions per capita. What's your solution, all of us Ohio's write a check to The State of Ohio for $19k? You go first, lead by example.


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152ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Maybellyne Posted:
How would we renegotiate for the return of our first ammendment rights if we have given up the right to negotiate?

Where and when was your freedom of speech taken away?

Wikipedia states: "The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law "respecting an establishment of religion", impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."

Hey Maybellyne, How about laying off the mascara, the fumes are effecting your thoughts.

You still can negotiate your wages, you just cannot negotiate your fringe benefits, and I know as well as you do, those will be acceptable enough or the employees will go elsewhere. Then as you would find out negotiating is not necessary, if the public sectors want a quality employee they will provide a matching or a little better fringe than the others to keep those defecting employees or better yet attract some employees that will exceed what they have now.

The problem is we just cannot afford the current packages as they have been given out when there is no way to sustain them without getting more taxes to cover the promises. Bad economics in anybody's book except the people benefiting form all of this. And they cannot see

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153JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Maybellyne had another post somewhere, she interprets peaceful assembly plus petitioning the governement equal to collective bargaining. I know, that interpretation is laughable.
I agree with you ytown. People such as Maybellyne and Average are reaching when they don't have any facts to back up their arguments. All facts clearly show the public employees are out of control. They believe that expenses can be greater than revenue, and offer absolutely no long-term solution to the problem.

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154JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

maybelleyne, your reaching on the 1st Amendment Right:

"In November, President Barack Obama called for a two-year freeze on the wages of federal employees, saying that this was part of an effort to reduce federal overspending. He does not have to negotiate with a federal-employee union before imposing the freeze, because most federal employees do not have the right to collectively bargain their salaries, which are set by Congress."


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155ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Yes I do, and we could do a better job with less money than what we currently spend today.

geromajor, you only see one side as you are a part, be it only a small part, but still a part of the problem. And you do not see where the problem is, the only problems you see is that teachers are not paid enough, have to work too long before retirement, or better yet you feel that retirement should come sooner as then you can get into the Retire/Rehire situation to double dipping

To you we as taxpayers should be forever grateful and just hand over the keys to the cash register and go back to our miserable lowly lives, because you know better than us and you will take care of it for us. Yea, we get it and the ride is over, the days of the 80% of the budgets going to salary and benefits are soon to be behind us.

Do you realize if we dedicated 15-20% of our current budgets for capital improvements and maintaining what we currently have, our building would last we could afford to build them ourselves, how and what we wanted, when we wanted to and not have to rely on the state, and having to let them tell us what we can or cannot build. We could have the best technology for our students to better prepare them for the future, not how it is being done now with 8-15 year old technology most schools make due with.

Why, we are always told the budget just cannot afford these thing? I will tell you again, Salary and Benefit requirements promised beyond what we can afford or accept.

I have one other question not only to you but anyone else that can answer it, why is it that we continue to see "EMERGENCY" Levies back on the ballot to be renewed? When does the emergency end, Never? Once the emergency is stabilized wouldn't you think that measures would be taken to correct what caused the emergency or at least trying to adjust for the emergency and release the taxpayers from this obligation until there is another legitimate emergency to take care of? Just a thought. geromajor, you asked.

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156ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

One other point i would like to make,
I know most of you know I am a Boardman Township resident, so you may or may not know this, there are currently 5 levies being taxed for the Boardman schools totaling, get this, 21.05 mils.

That is a boat load of money in any school district.

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157JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Not only a child, but a spouse who teaches in the public school systems. So I hear about the good and bad. And when I say bad, I am referring to waste by the so-called "professionals".
And your point is what? You want to use teachers, police, and firefighters as the face of the public employees, even though the waste lies in many aspects of the public sector?

Please provide us some numbers or facts of why there is no waste.

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158ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

geromajor, my proposal was to not rely on the state, self funded is the answer, we are already taking in quite a bit of money, the problem is 80%+ is going to salaries and benefits, completely unacceptable.

If we self fund, we self rule and then we can control the purse strings to benefit the teachers, administrators and most importantly the students.

We need to make the teachers and administrators a part of the solution not a part of the problem.

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159ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Way too many questions there geromajor,

Try them one at a time we only get 3,000 characters per post, that is why we have to continue some posts.

SB5 is about all state public unions. Not just teachers, you have to understand one thing geromajor, we have to start somewhere, and the overly generous fringe benefits is as good as place to start as any. The pay scale of $45,000 does not preclude them as ones who may or may not be also getting these ridiculous benefits that need a serious addressing, that is what is breaking the bank. I hope this is a start in answering some of your questions.

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160ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

The contract retractions have to reach a lot farther than just the insurance issue, I have blogged that till my fingers are bleeding, but I will include a few here again,

1) Of course the insurance issues that is clear

2) Accumulated vacation and sick days. Gone, How about an attendance bonus of say $500.00?

3 Vacations, holidays and sick days that don't total more than 5 weeks off a year with pay. We can always allow additional days for health issues of course without pay, or enroll them into an Aflac type plan through payroll deduction.

I am sure others can add to this list it has been a long day.

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161ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

So you just don't want to start at all, that is really is what you are saying.

This is only a start, it can be adjusted as all of the things from the past that have been changed and adjusted for current situations and times.

Only you wish that we don't start at all, just wait in fear as to whether we have a country and state to leave our children.

I myself wish to start to rein in all of this largess now and make adjustments as needed. We as a state can always put a referendum on the ballot and vote on it as taxpayers to correct some things and make more changes to save us from sure ruin.

geromajor, crawl from under the rock and get some sunlight, it is good for you. I promise you in the sun light there is no boogey man.

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162ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average, You're theory is seriously flawed, the 86.3% of workers are not being paid by the taxes the state receives, they are paid by the companies they work for.

I also have some other bad news concerning your theory, most of those are already paying 25-40% of their insurance with escalating deductibles with some reaching $50 for office visits and per person yearly deductibles topping $5,000. How is that fitting into your plan Average?

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163ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average, you did make a point though, that 13.7% of the workforce in the stat of Ohio is taking home more than 80%+ of most departments budgets, made up from you guessed it, taxes from the residents of Ohio.

How is this plan of yours working. Not too good is it?

See most of the private sector has already taken it on the chin, haven't you read anything here on Vindy, or do you just read what you agree with?

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164ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Where is your source? Post a link.

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165ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

If that is your math, though I am not sure that is how it works out though, but I will totally agree with you that all employees of the state should feel the pain the same. See one of the main reasons collective bargaining was being corrected from what I believe is that most administrators and other non-union employees compensations were tied to the union contracts.

So no reason to fight to keep them within reason, this is part of the equation that needs fixed, and yes all state employees if their benefits match the unions should be retracted also.

Why do you think most of the local politicians and administrators locally are fighting on the side of the unions? Thy may have to give up the largess that they readily gave out so they could receive it themselves. That is a lot of silliness going on now isn't it?

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166ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Average, the state does not employ 5,000,000 Million people, so your 13.7% is more like the total unionized employees in the state, not working for the state. Sorry for the bad news.

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167ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

I don't have that information, but I know your numbers don't make sense.

There is some google homework for you, though I did say I agree with you no matter what the numbers of union and non union working for the state and for that matter local governments that cannot balance their budgets without asking for more taxes. See post 258

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168ytown1(398 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

That still does not state how many employees the state has and how many are unionized.

This is not just a state issue, we have all kinds of benefit silliness going on at all levels of state, city, township and villages across the state of Ohio, all due to collective bargaining. Don"t you see that?

Adjustments are necessary from the governors office all the way down to the hand outs to repeat baby makers in the inner city whose only job is to make another child so they can get more support form the state.

You have to agree to that and call it a night.

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169JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

"what % of state workers are unionized?"

Approximately 6.5% of Ohio's workforce is public sector union. The 13.7% is closer to total unionized workforce in Ohio. I'll see if I can locate the link of where I read that.

Geromajor, you had asked for some specific numbers. The Columbus Dispatch ran an article yesterday:

"If bill had been in effect in 2010, central Ohio's biggest public entities would have saved $74 million"

This is only for central Ohio.


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170JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Geromajor, maybe you should cut down on the caffiene.
That would have been an actual number for 2010, and as I stated, just for central Ohio - Columbus region.
No layoffs are assumed, and I'm not sure why you believe layoffs are on the table now.
If no changes are made, then yes, the result may be layoffs. The State doesn't have the money to continue on this path. Expenses can't be greater than income.
The other option, raise taxes.

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171JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

ImUrPO, after the public sector employees have take, take, and taken some more over 27 years, a temporary solution does not fix the problem:

Ohio is the second worst State when it comes to unfunded pensions per capita.



"If bill had been in effect in 2010, central Ohio's biggest public entities
would have saved $74 million"

At that is just the Columbus region


"But on July 1, concessions the employees gave up nearly two years ago will start to be reimbursed or restored"

"About $50 million for personal time that could not be taken will be paid in a lump sum in August. An additional $30 million in bypassed "step" salary increases, $150 million in pay cuts from furlough days and an undetermined amount in sick days also will be restored, but not paid in a lump sum"

"But in July - when the final year of a three-year labor contract begins - those reductions are scheduled to end. That means a hit of more than $250 million to state coffers, the state Office of Budget and Management says"


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172JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Why is the Union mentality always "all or nothing"?

There's allot of waste and it's a big start. You be the first to write your check made payable to The State of Ohio for $19,000 to catch up on the penions. We'll all follow your lead!!

Big difference is those folks get their taxes back, and allot more!!

Keep ignorning the facts!!

The unions and democrats have done wonderful things for the Valley the last 50 years, haven't they!!

I have a great solution. For those against SB5, you will be required to pay more taxes to support the public sector employees wants.

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173JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

"your probably on Social Security reaping the benefits of those of us that actually work. "

I always get a good chuckle whenever I see words such as "reaping benefits" used with "Social Security" in the same sentence.

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174JME(802 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

I agree with you olddue, typical left-wing democrat reverting to name calling when someone disagrees or they don't get their way.
Just look at two of their leaders, Hagan and Betras.

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175fd6636(289 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago


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176goYtown(13 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

Common sense must prevail with this SB5 issue. I am a retired public employee and even though I did get a small payout for unused sick leave, I do not believe this should be a practice to be continued. It's precisely these "unreasonable" benefits that need to be discontinued. I know many private workers who only get two weeks off each year, and those two weeks can be either sick leave or vacation/personal time.

Vacation time is intended to be used as time for rest and renewal--not time to be hoarded for extra money upon retirement. I am not supportive of any employee being financially rewarded for not using vacation time.

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177BackToYtown(3 comments)posted 5 years, 4 months ago

I for one applaud Mr. Franko for his opinion on this. I have very close family members who loudly disagree with senate bill 5, as they have been benefactors of the public benefit system for years. I, as a "private", do not understand how merit based pay, higher but no more than average health insurance premiums, and no more employer sponsored retirement etc... Is such a terrible thing. I do not have these benefits, as they would bankrupt any normal company. Public employees are incredibly valuable, and perform important jobs. We seem to forget what that means though. Serve the public. Do not complain when you may have to be equal to them, or closer. Everyone I know and all research I have done show that pay rates for job X are virtually the same (within $2k/yr) in the public and private sectors. Why should benefits for a public employee be worth $6,500
more? The money saved by doing this is not going to be used to spread the wealth. It will help rebuild this state.

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