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Published: Tue, February 22, 2011 @ 12:01 a.m.
  YSU Rally against SB 5

Gov. John Kasich and Ohio Republicans continue to face opposition from unionized public workers.

“Our friends who think we’re idiots have woken a sleeping giant,” said U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan of Niles, D-17th.

Gov. John Kasich and Ohio Republicans continue to face opposition from unionized public workers. “Our friends who think we’re idiots have woken a sleeping giant,” said U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan of Niles, D-17th.

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The Vindicator (Youngstown)

More than 200 people were turned away from the Chestnut Room in Youngstown State University’s Kilcawley Center, which was packed with a standing-room-only crowd when the rally against Senate Bill 5 began. Firefighters, teachers and police were among crowd, which came out Monday to protest the bill that would eliminate collective bargaining for state employees.

Valley unions, lawmakers rally against Ohio Senate Bill 5

By Kristine Gill

kgill@vindy.com

YOUNGSTOWN

Gov. John Kasich and Ohio Republicans continue to face opposition from unionized public workers.

“Our friends who think we’re idiots have woken a sleeping giant,” said U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan of Niles, D-17th.

That sentiment was echoed by the more than 1,200 people who gathered Monday night at Youngstown State University to protest Ohio Senate Bill 5.

Protesters in the Chestnut Room of the Kilcawley Center wore face paint and carried signs that read “Educators against Senate Bill 5,” shaking their heads and chanting “Kill the bill” at every opportunity.

The bill would eliminate collective bargaining for public employees. A fourth hearing has been scheduled for late this afternoon in Columbus, and thousands of protesters across the state again are expected to attend.

The governor supports the bill, saying it is one piece of a larger bill aimed at improving Ohio’s economic climate.

Speakers, however, called the bill an attack on working-class America thinly veiled as an attempt to balance the budget.

“This, ladies and gentlemen, is a full-frontal assault, systematic, on the working class in Ohio,” said state Sen. Capri Cafaro of Liberty, D-32nd, who also is Senate minority leader, the top position for Democratic senators. “Anyone who tells you this is about balancing the budget is simply not telling the truth.”

The forum, headed by affiliates of the Ohio Education Association, the statewide teachers union, follows weeklong protests in Columbus where thousands gathered to rally against SB 5.

Randy Williams, president of Lodge 200 of the Fraternal Order of Police at YSU, called for solidarity during the rally.

“I ask you honestly, who is going to want these jobs in the future? Who is going to protect your family? Would you be willing to risk your life day after day for minimum wage?” he said to applause.

State Rep. Bob Hagan of Youngstown, D-60th, brought the crowd to its feet several times with lines such as “You can kiss my union a--” and “It’s time to walk like an Egyptian, folks.” He addressed police officers present, recalling the recent reports that Kasich called a fellow officer an idiot.

“I guess you guys already saw where Gov. Kasich put his foot again,” Hagan said. “That’s pretty difficult considering where his head is.”

Brian Brennan, president of the YSU Association of Classified Employees, said he believes the rally will result in some sort of change and that the fight has brought union workers together.

“That’s one thing we can thank Gov. Kasich for,” he said. “I definitely think this will influence the way things are going.”

Ryan agreed.

“We have a lot of work to do, but it’s my understanding there are some senators down there [in Columbus] who are getting a little queasy,” the congressman said.

Ryan went on to reiterate the importance of the union workers who would be affected should the bill pass.

“These folks who are teachers — they raise our kids. It’s the police we call when we’re in trouble. ... As we’re running out of our homes, it’s the firefighters who are running in,” he said.

State Sen. Joseph Schiavoni of Canfield, D-33rd, said he was overwhelmed by the support shown in the Mahoning Valley and tired of hearing that public-sector employees were “a privileged class.”

“Just because we’re underdogs in this fight doesn’t mean we’re going to lose,” he said to calls from the crowd of “Keep swinging, Joe!”

Kate Renfield, a South Side resident and high school teacher in Campbell, attended the rally and said she was impressed by the turnout and hopes it will make a difference.

“They’ve gotta know we’re as serious as a heart attack,” she said.

Judy Ciarrochi, a school psychologist in the Campbell school district, agreed.

“I think it was great,” she said. “Everything was so true. They keep saying it’s about money, but it’s about job security.”


Comments

1dubfun(174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I wonder how many politicians that support Senate Bill 5 would be willing to take a pay cut or have their salaries frozen? Or would they accept a drastic reduction in benefits? How about making contributions to your taxpayer funded health care? C'mon Kasich; aren't you a public employee? You work for the taxpayers. You're sucking money out of the taxpayer's pockets for your salary, your benefits, your government pension and your publicly funded health care that you will receive when you retire. Wow, talk about being on the public dole! Let's see you and your buddies in the State House and in Washington start practicing what they preach. Hypocrites!

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2TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

When will you people wake up? Unions have played a big part with the growing inflation we have today. Back in the mid 1960s, a 4 bedroom home in Forest Lake sold for $23,900 and today, that same home would cost 20 times that amount to build. So, the point is, if we don’t curve inflation in the Butt now, that same house 50 years from now, will cost your grand kids $956,000 and they can thank the Unions and their greedy grandparents for their poor living conditions. And if you think hyperinflation couldn’t happen here in the U.S., you’re dead wrong. Auto union bailouts. Union demands for higher gov’t employment and wages, Wall street’s golden parachutes. The needless creation of more and more gov’t entities… The Feds are burning your money with the support of the unions, right before your eyes…And you ain’t seen nothing yet. Imagine going to the grocery store tomorrow to find that a loaf of bread costs $32. A dozen eggs cost $41. And milk? How’s $51 a gallon sound? Be your own man and tell the union to take their meat hooks out of you and go pound salt!!

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3L0L(607 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Yes Tony, everything is the unions' fault.
You mention " Auto union bailouts" well what about the bank bailouts? Oh, those must not count huh? Wasn't it the auto bailouts that paid their money back? What did the banks do with their bailouts? Oh thats right, gave bonuses to CEO's and threw a big party. Its ok to have your own opinion but if you're gonna have one, make valid points and try not to be so one-sided with your comments that you leave other FACTS out.

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4TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

LOL,
You can bet your ass it is all the unions fault. What did the unions do for the steelworkers in 1977 to help keep the Youngstown mills open after Jimmy Carter implemented his Clean Air Act. Did they use union dues to help fight for gov’t subsidies to keep the mills operating, the answer is “Hell No”. The facts today are, without union members and dues, union Bosses won’t have a job. The Big Fact, the only thing you mean to them is a meal ticket, other wise they don’t give a hoot about you.

For the union’s prime directive, the chief purpose of their actions is their own survival and aggrandizement which forces them to hit the inflationary switches constantly. In a more sensible frame of labor law and labor policy, unions would have no more power to bring about inflation than any other private agency; but as matters now stand, they are forced by their determination to survive as the beneficiaries of extensive special privilege to bring about states of affairs which produce inflationary in-creases in the money supply more or less directly. In other words, unions will only survive with creating inflation. Without inflation, there is no need of a union, yes the more wages a worker makes, the more the product cost rises. Fact!!

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5repeaters(180 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

In that great political forum, someone should have asked all those seasoned politicians one by one the big question, 'Since the state has an 8 billion dollar hole to fill, and since Ohio ranks 47th in job creation and is 7th highest in taxes, and add in the hundreds of thousands of jobs the state has lost in the last decade, then, where would you recommend we cut and if so, what, and whose taxes should we raise?' The silence would have benn deafening.

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6UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Yes to Senate Bill 5! The time has come for the public sector emplyees to be treated the same as the private sector employees so Ohio can address it's $8B with a "B" budget problem by creating smaller government with less spending on the cadillac healthcare and golden pensions for public employees. We the real taxpayers can't afford their level of benefits anymore.

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7Freeatlast(1989 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

This is what you voted for and this is what you get ,. Did you think they were going to after the poor black guy in Youngstown . Now you can make bricks without straw. The rich have taken over .

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8Attis(829 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"All that harms labor is treason to America" So says Honest Abe, and he is right. He is also rolling in his grave these days.

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9author50(1121 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Wouldn't it have been grand to get all the folks at this meeting to march in the south side of the city to show the bad guys that their days are numbered?

Ryan, Letson, Gerberry and Hagan roll over and do tricks for their masters the public unions. Public unions should be treated fair, but over the last 50 years it is the taxpayers who have been treated unfair by the greed of the public unions.

FACT: In Mahoning County, the public union worker makes $55,000. The private sector worker makes $23,000.

Isnt it time that the people at this meeting in the article stop holding the rest of the county hostage?

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10oldmillspice(160 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I was a union member for most of 40 years . all I got was a $$$ deduction every month . Remember Tamco ?? Teamsters ? I made $4.25 and then $6.00 per hour while the young person next to me got paid alllmost 12.00. Paid $150 initiation fee and 20 a month in dues - No union representation until I hit 750 hours of service, I got a better non union job that made $9.00 per hour and all the overtime I wanted. Bye Tamco. Then after 8 years I got called back to my good job, good money good benefits.but really hard work. I attended union meetings and bought the bulls**t that was told to me, Yes I was a proud union member . Then I got bad info twice that affected my life profoundly. I paid my last $75.00 for monthly dues in December Yes I paid into part of my own healthcare with less coverages 6 years of 1 cent raises, Yes the money was decent when I wasnt laid off. The guy just above the local level was paid appx. 4 times my yearly wage. if I worked 12 months which never happened . Thank God I am finally out of the rat race .Unions+Politics=Greed

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11Stan(9923 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"“Our friends who think we’re idiots have woken a sleeping giant,” said U.S. Rep. Tim Ryan of Niles, D-17th."

Don't worry about the private sector . Just raise the taxes . Right Timmy ?

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12WarrenRicheyKid(166 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I would have never been able to afford college if my dad had worked in a non-Union machine shop. This country's prosperity was built on good union jobs. Kill the unions, Republican governors, and you kill any chance for a middle and working class recovery.

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13author50(1121 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

@geromajor.

Here is your agrument in a nutshell:

All democrats are good and all republicans are bad. You remind me of the bleating from the sheep in Orwell's "Animal Farm".

The private sector unions are not involved in this bill. They have done their fair share of helping in the last 10 years by making deaals to help save their companies and jobs. It is the PUBLIC SECTOR unions that will be forced to make some small sacrifices to help our county, state and nation. But since the democratic party is the toady of the public sector unions - it appears they are all about themselves - much like the republicans and wall street.

Time for the real middle class of this country to get out of this squeeze!

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14Photoman(950 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

At a time when we all need to sacrafice in order to stabilize our nation it appears to me that the sacrafices always need to be made by others, but not "me" because of one reason or another. We need unions and we need corporations--both big business organizations. Government also is big business-every bit as greedy as other big business so, in reality, who is looking out for Joe Average----no one. Everyone else listed above has all of the perks including the salaries, the automobiles, the expense accounts, the free health care, etc. Joe Average is just one of the many sheep following one of the three big businesses listed above.

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15maggie101956(5 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Back in 1983 Packard Electric had appoximately 12,000 employees. Slowly the jobs moved to Mexico, and the union let management do what they wanted, without trying to keep the jobs here. Then all the workers here did Mexico's repairs. Back then the average worker couldn't get a job there or at GM because they started an employment lottery with their employees, and only hiring outside the union membership to keep their "equal opportunity employment" status so they quailified for federal subsidies. How many are now employed at Delphi? Were retirees replaces by another employee? Jobs at GM were replaced by robodics that, last time I checked, don't buy homes, pay taxes, or add to the local economy. The state union has done nothing to repeal the offset penalty for people that worked privately during a big chunk of their professional careers, and then got hired by the state. Those people have to give up the majority of the FICA money that was taken out of every pay for years, and let the federal government keep it. If the teachers unions want the same old same old, then negotiate with them Gov. Kasich...see if they will give up tenure. The private sector has to perform to keep their jobs...are union workers willing to do the same, or do we just fund the job banks by paying more for our cars??? I am for unions and why they were created, they have now become as greedy as those they accuse. Something has to be done, for the country is bankrupt. We will be under one world order soon, and I don't think any of us will like THOSE changes.

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16Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Wow.
Maggie.
You are right, the federal government did keep my social security payments, while making me ineligible for benefits. Do you really think the union did not fight that?
So yes, I did subsidize the pensions of private workers.
But why buy into a battle setting one middle class worker against another?
(By the way, Ohio teachers do not get a continuing contract for 7 years, longest in the nation. That's what you call "tenure", which is actually something only college professors get.)
Do you know what is next on the agenda?
The prevailing wage, overtime, the 40 hour week, the half hour lunch, for the private sector.
Ending collection bargaining has zero effect on the budget. The unions had already agreed to concessions.

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17Fattkidd(45 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I got news for all you private sector buffs... 'private sector' rakes in more tax $ than any other group in US. GOP just approved $53billion in subsidies for oil & gas industry for 1 yr! This on top of record profits! In 2009, Exxon/Mobil made $1/share profit & $.40/share in direct gov't handout! If you were Exxon/Mobil shareholder, almost 40% of your gains were direct gov't subsidy!!!

There is plenty of waste to cut in these state budgets & plenty of places to raise taxes to not have to dig into working class pockets at a time when gas is predicted to be $4/gal by end of summer, food prices are up 40% & we're all STILL making overly inflated house payments!

&, I've got news for Tony, it's not union wages that push inflation, it's easy creation of phony $ via credit. Debt IS $! Back in 70s, leverage rate for S&Ls was 9-1 meaning a savings & loan could loan out 9$ for every 1$ on deposit. By 2006, that had grown to 100-1 & there was really no accounting as gov't oversight had been gutted.

To clarify that for you, banks (& not just S&Ls but ANY bank) were creating money/debt out of thin air at rate of 100-1 on deposit!

Then, lump on top of that all the credit card companies (more phony $) auto loans, payday loans, title loans, etc. &, you have a gigantic CREDIT BUBBLE that has pushed costs up WAY over wages.

FACT: the median income in US in 1970 was $33,400 adjusted for inflation. In 2009, it was $33,000!!!!

YOU HEAR THAT TONY! WAGES ARE DOWN!

So, tell me again how union wages have created inflation!? You're nothing but a useful idiot for those who think all working class folks should be standing next to their KIDS on assembly line making $5.00 w/NO benefits!!

Hey, if that's what you want, MOVE TO FREAKING CHINA ALREADY! We don't want that here!

Also, tell me why TEXAS is #1 debtor state in union & it has NO UNIONS to deal with!

Fact is, these states have REVENUE problems because greedy fat cats have taken the high paying jobs to COMMUNINST countries & kept ALL the gains of increased production here for themselves!

FACT: income for top 1% has increased 40% since 1980 while income has declined for bottom 90%. THERE IS YOUR BUDGET PROBLEM RIGHT THERE! Couple that w/lowest tax rates in HISTORY for that same group & you have budget disaster on your hands!

YOU FOOLS want to cut wages even FURTHER!? WAKE UP!

When most of taxes were paid by working class folks, who had good jobs which allowed their spouse to stay home & mind the kids WE ALL DID BETTER! Society was more stable. Crime lower. Kids learned & did well in school.

Now, hidden ugly statistic that you NEVER hear mentioned is that that $33,000/yr median houshold income today is w/TWO INCOME EARNERS in household!

So, yeah, lets just emulate commie China w/our labor & enviro policies! That'll make things MUCH better, eh!?

FOOLS!

If Public/Private union members make less $, WE ALL will make less $!

Get a freaking clue already.

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18Realist(61 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I am still on the fence about which side to support. There has to be a middle ground somewhere. While I do agree that most unions have gotten out of control, I don't think it's safe to just take away all of their rights.

I don't think teachers are overpaid until they start complaining about how they are underpaid. But I wouldn't want that job, the job of teaching/babysitting our kids 183 days a year. Reality check people - Our kids are bad (yes your kids are too) and guess who's fault it is? It's ours.

Firefighters and policemen and women deserve to be paid extremely well. I bet 3/4 of the people on this message board take for granted what these folks do. Who doesn't think that a cop in Younsgtown deserves to make $80,000+ per year? If you don't think that they do would you do it for $40,000, $60,000 even $80,000. Probably not.

Compromise people!

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19jethead11(139 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Don't listen to union lies, Fattkidd, Median Household Income for the Youngstown-Warren-Boardman MSA was $53,500 in 2010 (Source: efanniemae.com).

It is a lot higher in many right to work states, where people have the freedom to join or union or not. Forced unionism hurts everyone, and is soon to be a thing of the past in many states, including Ohio hopefully.

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20maggie101956(5 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Education_Voter, I appreciate your input. The offset penalty only affects 7 states in the Union. Why can't the state of Ohio overturn the federal law? We have had politicians from both parties claim to fight for it to be overturned. The only constant the State employees have had is it's Union, and nothing has been done. I have worked both public and private sector. Perks from my public sector job were great, but in the long run, the average Joe picks up the tab through employement and property tax. Nothing is fair, but each state has problems. Where is the answer? Who sacrifices and tightens their belt, to keep us afloat? We all have to work together. We are a civilized society. These demonstations are reminding me of the Kent State days, and we all know how that turned out. As long as we act in a peaceful manor, maybe they will meet in the middle...I don't see that happening.

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21Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Republican Rick,
Because it's not true. It's just a meme that conservative talk show hosts throw out till you believe it.
The 47% figure does not include payroll taxes like those for FICA and medicare. Is that not a tax in reality?
Also many formerly federal services were shifted to the states, which is partly what is stressing states. Low income people usually pay a greater percentage of state taxes than the affluent. Also, of course, the lower income people still pay sales taxes and property taxes.
The wealthy get their money back in the form of subsidies. In addition to subsidies already named, Ohio millionaires get hundreds of thousands of dollars from the government every year in the form of farm subsidies. Money for NOT growing a certain crop on your estate! It's a good gig, if you can get it.

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22cambridge(2918 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

This is not about unions making concessions. They have already made concessions and are offering to make more. This is about taking away the right for a union to bargain. they want to bust the unions, pure and simple.

The people that are not in unions and think they will not be affected are dreaming. When the top 1% makes as much income as the bottom 50% and the gap keeps getting bigger every year it's only a matter of time till you will be the next to "give back".

It's so funny to read these post that demonize unions. Oh, the union ruined this business, the union drove this company out of business, the union sent these jobs offshore.

If you take every company that has gone out of business or shipped jobs overseas what percentage do you think were union? I would guess a few percent at most. So what caused the other companies to go broke? Mismanagement? What caused the other companies to move jobs offshore? Greed? These same principles are to blame for the condition of our states and federal government. The republicans are so focused on that top 1% that they are willing to throw the rest of us away.

Watch the video.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/s...

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23borylie(742 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Public employees get their wages and benefits from one source,taxpayers. Taxpayers have no say in how much in wages and benefits they pay to the public employees. If there's opposition when a levy is brought up to pay for services,then we're told and put on the guilt trip that crime will rise,fires will now kill someone,if more teachers aren't hired or paid better than our children will suffer. You have supervisors and elected officials paid by the taxpayers negotiating with the unions on how much more taxpayers should pay. Conflict of interest? Example: Paul Gains,paid by the tax payers pays his public sector employees with taxpayer monies and says if he doesn't pay them well enough,they'll quit. In my opinion if someone in att'y Betras's office threatened to quit since he pays them out of his own pocket,they'd be gone. When public employees use collective bargaining to shut down the services that we need so that they can get more benefits and therfore put the onus on taxpayers to cave or do without and then let the states and cities worry about getting the money,this is why we need reform.

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24Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Many area teachers worked in parochial schools at the beginning of their careers, and did not have a pension. When the schools closed and the teacher moved to the public school, he/she lost her social security after 15 or 20 years of contributions. Also some people (me) went into education as a second career. We lost our social security eligibility as well as widow's benefits from our husbands.
I also lost all of the quarters I earned from working a second job.
They just took it all to shore up social security. I believe that younger teachers have to contribute to FICA without getting benefits. And sorry. It is not only teachers. It is every public employee who has a pension fund. But not private employees who have a pension fund.

By the way, the next time Conservatives throw that 40-something% at you (it changes), ask them if actual years of your life in the armed services counts. The armed services are overwhelmingly staffed with the lower 50% of earners. Is giving an arm and a leg, literally, enough of a contribution?

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25Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

If unions are causing the deficit, what can you say about the states with worse deficits who don't have a collective bargaining law? (See Arizona, for one)

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26ValleyNative(174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

...and then a bunch of teachers in this area had the day off today. lol.

Btw, has anyone seen those Wisconsin state senators? I heard they were immersed in the crowd at the YSU rally yesterday.

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27Fattkidd(45 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Sorry RepubRick but according to the IRS, income of average US taxpayer in 1988, adjusted for inflation, was $33,400. Median household income in 1998 was $51,295 but in 2008, it sank to $50,300. These figures were NOT adjusted for inflation. This is according to the Census Bureau.

Contrast that to the 25% increase in income for the top 1%, 40% for the top 5%, and you see why we're in the mess we're in.

GDP has continued to climb and we're just as wealthy today as we've ever been, as a nation. But, all of the gains of that productivity have gone to the top few percent while they've also seen their tax rates decreased to almost historical lows.

In other words, in WI, you could fire every single state/local union worker and you'd still not be able to balance the budget, if Walker's claims of $3.6billion deficit are to be believed (which they are not as the WI State Budget Office has stated).

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28mjnovaksr(92 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Amazing! The 10% who have the best pay, benefits, and hours don't want to continue to work unless they can bargain collectively and continue to exploit city, county and state governments. Shameful!! About time they returned to reality. They should listen to the Socialist in Chief.... everyone must giveback. Aren't they part of everyone?? And the shameful attitude of our elected representative Tim Ryan.... was he afraid to appear before this angry crowd? But when healthcare debate was hot and heavy and those of us who disagreed wanted to meet with him to be heard or protest he ran like a scared rabbit. The Socialist Democrat party needs a real reality check. We the people are Taxed Enough Already and darn tired of paying for the unions and we WILL be heard and we WILL return this country to sanity and balanced budgets! Kudos to Kasich and the Ohio Legislature for returning to sanity and passing SB 5!!

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29Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

No, the elected officials did not cause the recession by agreeing to pay firemen a living wage. They caused the recession by removing regulations on banks, and by ignoring the violations of regulations that remained. Investments made by pension funds were lost.
They spent us into a deficit by invading foreign nations, and building the military. They acquiesed to every demand of businesses for tax rebates.

Do you want to turn on the tap and get clean water?
Do you want someone to help you when your house, or the one next door, catches fire?
Are you going to call the GOP during a house invasion or the FOP?

Like someone said at the rally, the fireman who brought my child out of my burning house, I would give him all my possessions.

These very businesses who don't want to pay taxes do demand facilities like good roads and water. They were supposedly the ones who complained that schools had to be better. They use, but do not give back.

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30ValleyNative(174 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

As someone who deals with numbers on a regular basis, I love seeing people just "reference" figures aimlessly. Granted, some may be correct, but I bet a good number of it is, well, hogwash.

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31Freeatlast(1989 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

This must stop !!!!! This must stop !!!!! Bring in the armed Tea party and they will just shoot these horrible union thugs. God forbid that someone should make a good days pay . Who in the H$ll do they think they are . Get these bums back into slavery . Bring them down NOW

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32CompMan(125 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Help me understand why public employees, like teachers (especially university professors who pontificate with the media) and nurses, in today market need a union / pay union leaders to make decisions on their behalf. I respect their intellilect but question why they do not trust their own career decisions within a meritocracy environment. It would seem steel and auto history would tell them change is needed for their own survival. Safety forces have bargaining special issues based upon their duties and career spand.

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33Hlecter(59 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

What does any of this have to do with the Browns?

And who they will draft at #6?

Hah. I didn't think so!!!

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34300(552 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

JessieDavid, no teacher's get don't get 100% salary in retirement.

I'm not a teacher, but it's common knowledge that after 30 years teachers get something like 60%, and after 35 years they get something like 75%. They also lose their previous healthcare, and have to start paying a fair bit more to stay covered.

This was all before changes were enacted last year to their retirement system. Now, I've read, teachers will have to wait until 60 to retire, and their retirement will be maxed out at somewhere in the 60s% of their salary.

There's a great deal of misinformation being spread by the GOP, like 100% retirement salary, teachers making 100K a year, comparing teachers with master's degrees to people working the verizon kiosk with only a HS degree, etc. People really do need to be correctly informed.

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35Freeatlast(1989 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Up with the GOP / TEA PARTY down with working people . This good days pay must stop and stop NOW

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36moneymoney(21 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Wow. 200 middle-aged to old white people showed up at a rally in a metropolitan area that has a population of 600,000. The support is overwhelming.

Sounds like a poor man's version of a Tea Party rally to me.

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37commoncitizen(944 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

What is Tim Ryan doing getting involved in State issues when the Federal government is in economic problems???
Instead of being in Columbus he should be spending time in Washington where he was elected to act. there are enough of his "good old boys" from Mahoning county in Columbus

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38Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Jesse,
I would get $3,000 a month if I retired, minus $1000 a month for health care until I reach medicare age, which will probably be pushed back as well.
You posted a story yourself about my pension fund. I guess you related to the part that said I wouldn't need my social security. What do you think?
I plan to find a less stressful job to make the healthcare payments.
Do you think I could use the social security years that were taken from me when I became a teacher?
I actually don't mind it being taken, if they would also take it from everyone else that has another pension.

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39Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Jesse,
You forgot one thing, 75% of not very much is still not very much. To reach that level I would have to teach 40 years. I got my job when I was 30. Not a pretty picture.

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40Ytownnative(983 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Well the obvious solution is for everyone who works in the private sector to send in their entire monthly income, the state would then pay all their government union employees, and we can get back a few cents to live on. My entire taxes paid probably dont pay for the gas for the the public employees use while sleeping int he truck waiting for work. ALL HAIL THE GREAT AND POWERFUL UNION LEADERS.

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41webad(156 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

---
This discussion wouldn't be taking place if tax cuts for the super-rich had been allowed to expire. Once the tax cut extension was passed in DC ... breaking unions' backs was the next logical step.

Perhaps private sector employees should be earning better wages and benefits. Maybe those wages and benefits ought to be the same as unionized Gov't workers get ... not the other way around. Don't the private sector job off-shorers just love seeing us squabble among ourselves while they do their dirty work here and overseas.

Who voted for these Congresspeople? Who did nothing to prevent a takeover?

The current attempt to destroy unions is the symptom ... not the disease.

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42LtMacGowan(622 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Union & Proud.
That's all I have to say.

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43rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

i think everyone needs to wake up and stop the assault on public employees. i thought Lincoln abolished slavery. we could end up there again. i would like to know how much money public employees including retirees put back into ohio. i will bet it is alot.

do you really think that all the money that is spent on campaigns is for our benefit. i cant wait to see how jobs ohio is giong to work

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44rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

remember when noone wanted public jobs. they didnt pay enough. we all pay taxes. what is ohios debt 8 billion. public workers didnt get us into this position. have any of our wonderful leaders taken a pay cut. i dont think so. they dont care because they are rich

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45TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I have worked at the Youngstown Sheet &Tube and was a member of the USW Union. I used a work ethic that was instilled in me by my father. "Work Hard, Be Ethical, Be Truthful, and Respect Authority" In both cases, my work ethic in a unionized company demonstrated to me one thing very quickly. The harder I worked, the nastier, and the harder the job I would be assigned. There was no end to the nastiness, and the level of difficulty of the jobs being assigned and they were assigned by no other than Bother Union Gang Leader. I also learned that no matter how hard I worked, my compensation was identical to the person who literally spent 2 hours of his 8 hour work day actually working. The other 6 were spent in the restroom, smoking, talking to co workers, hiding for the bosses, and generally just avoiding work. This was the majority mindset of Brierhill Pipe Mill and the Panther Run Pipe Yards.

I also learned that when promotion time came, if the guy who spent all his time avoiding work had been there longer than me, he would get the promotion, not me. It didn't matter how hard you worked, how smart you were, or if you deserved to be promoted, you only got promoted if you had been there longer than the next guy or you were a friend of the dept. union grievous man. Yeah, those were the days our union bosses were given Cadillacs to drive on membership dues.

How many think this is a way to have a profitable company with productive employees?

This was 50 years ago. In the last 45 years I have worked for companies that are not unionized. I am highly rewarded for my thoughts, my hard work, my innovation, and my contribution to the company. I got along great with my superiors, I was well paid, and good benefits.

The only things Unions have shown me are that they are a drain on both society and companies. The best thing ever happen to me and my family was the day the Youngstown Sheet & Tube shut its doors and never having to be a union gang leader lackey.

If the Youngstown Unions were good for the economy, Youngstown would still be a steel boom town stretching 27 miles from Campbell to Warren.

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46L0L(607 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Tony,
Its funny you mention the still industry. Do you actually know why the steel industry failed in Youngstown or are you just making up "facts" again. It wasn't the unions fault for not re-investing into the company it was the owners fault for not re-investing into the company. Most of the equipment used in the Youngstown's plants were outdated and not up to speed with that of our foreign competitors. So you see, it was the private owners who's greed for money, lack of re-investing in their own company to keep them competitive that got them where they were.

And I like how you just conveniently ignored and left out the banks which are private and not union. What about their bailouts, their greed, their misuse of not only the governments money but ours!! Yes, in case you didn't realize it banks run on the citizens money. They overspent on high salaries for CEO's and bonuses, throwing parties and squandering that they went belly up. Who saved them? A government bailout. Again, they're private and not union.

Author,
"FACT: In Mahoning County, the public union worker makes $55,000. The private sector worker makes $23,000."

Really? Are you comparing a Mcdonalds worker to a fire fighter? Get real. Also, its been proven that throughout time the public sector and private sector have been receiving the same pay and pay raises throughout the years. That is when you compare similar jobs unlike your comparison.

And one more thing Tony. You're right about being a harder worker than others and getting the short end of the stick or being passed over for a promotion because of connections but there is one thing you're not mentioning. At least you can't be fired because you're not friends with the boss and he doesn't like you. Your job is safe just like the slackers despite friendships with the boss. One thing you forget is the union protects you that way unlike the private sector. You must have forgot that huh?

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47rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

tony l
my father worked for sheet and tube for 38 years. the lykes corporation is the reason sheet and tube closed down. greed again. and when he passed away a year and a half later if i remember right, my mom received 85 dollars a month from his pension. sounds fair.

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48Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

We live in the Mahoning Valley, Rick!
Principals don't even make $80,000.

The tippy top of my district's scale, which requires a PhD pays $64,000 and 25 years of service with it.

Yikes. I make $56,000 after years and years of making less than $30,000, making it hard to put those thousands in the IRA.

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49rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

lets keep fighting among one another, thats what everyone wants. when i started working in public employment, i was making around 3.50 per hour, noone wanted those jobs when the mills were here among other industries. i dont have a lucritive pension, i pay for healthcare and im sick and tired of the bashing. where are all of the water coolers going to be stored when this moves away from public employees. stop the bashing and realize that this isnt going to stop with public employees, its just the beginning. public employees didnt get us into this

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50Fattkidd(45 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

No, RepubRick, it doesn't make your point. The point is, income for the middle class is flat or even lower now than it was 20, 30 yrs ago while income for the top 1%-5% is up HUGE over that same time period. On top of that, the top few percent have seen their tax liability drop from 70% before Reagan to 33% before deductions. 2/3 of all corporations paid NO TAXES in 2009. And, the effective tax rate for that top 1% is more like 15%, as Warren Buffet stated. He's paying a 15% effective tax rate while his secretary is paying 35%.

Does that sound fair to you? If so, you might be a Republican!

So, to recap, ALL of the gains of production/GDP over the last 30yrs have gone to a very small percentage at the top while incomes for the working class have stagnated or declined. We have more people in poverty now than we did 30yrs ago. More people on gov't assistance. 1/4 kids receive food stamps in the US.

In every economic measure, the middle/lower class has declined rapidly, while the top 1% has reaped HUGE rewards and are paying WAY LESS in taxes. There is a correlation here, folks and it ain't rocket science.

We have a revenue problem. But, instead of asking these fat pukes to pay better wages or more tax, idiots like you want to take more from working class stiffs and food from the tables of the poor.

Shame on you all.

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51webad(156 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I mention the following because some seem not to understand the way government works:

commoncitizen (a few posts above) needs to know that being involved in Ohio's issues is what House members like Ryan and Kucinich are supposed to do. Not Senators as much. But, yes, DC HOUSE members are meant to be in close touch with the people of their districts. That's the reason there are so many more of them than there are Senators. That's why House members meet with their constituents any number of times during each year. It's their business to be involved because they represent the state's concerns in Washington.

Had Kucinich been elected president, then the root of the current problem likely would have been addressed by now. If Ohio loses Kucinich it will be a loss for the entire country. So don't let the state re-district him out of office and then complain that no one tried to prevent, at the Federal level, such a circumstance as is now going on in Ohio.

This current issue is not about YOU. It's about ALL of us. We need to pay attention and think things through during campaigns ... not be driven by emotion. Look at each candidate's history and then try to weed out campaign lies.

PAY ATTENTION. Attack the root. Attacking the the leaf won't help.

Find out how your senators and representatives are voting on issues all year long. Have their votes emailed right to your InBox all year long.
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http://www.congress.org/congressorg/m...

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52TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

LOL,
If unions benefited their members above what they cost, there would not need to be any laws or regulations forcing membership or payment of dues. If unions benefited employers more than they cost them, there would not need to be any laws forcing the acceptance of them. In both cases, membership and cooperation, force would not be necessary if mutual benefit under free exchange existed.

If a worker is free to quit a job, an employer if free to fire. Workers are not slaves, and neither are those who own a business. In fact, often they switch roles, with today’s worker opening his own shop tomorrow, or today’s business owner closing his doors and taking wage or salary work instead.

To the extent that union workers in today’s regime of laws and regulations earns more then his fellow it is with wages stolen from the less skilled kept out of the market by rules created by politicians bought and paid for by unions. No one in a union makes the minimum wage, yet unions are the biggest lobbyists for these laws. Why? Because they eliminate competition for union workers. Pay for union workers goes up, and the poorest and least skilled cannot find any job at all. Their ability to develop skills is destroyed. The young and minorities are disproportionately hurt.

Unions are cartels like any other. They seek to increase their profits at the expense of others. Unions could survive and help their members by providing training, job placement, vetted workers, group insurance pools, etc. Instead they concentrate on legally excluding competition and extorting those who create jobs by risking their own money to produce goods for society.

Unions, if they can flourish without coercion and violence, are a good thing. If they cannot, it is only because they are not a net benefit to the members and the places the members desire to work.

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53TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Rico,
This is for you. What really shut down the Sheet & Tube, was not reinvestment or the Lykes Brothers. It was EPA and after investing $20.0 million for air pollution equipment as required by the Clean Air Act of 1972. But, it wasn't enough to put a burden like this on Big Steel, Jimmy Carter, the Godfather of The Trilateral Trade Agreement, who in 1977 made an amendment to the Clean Air Act with stricter demands on emissions which the Sheet & Tube and the Valley Steelmills couldn't meet, local politicians tried to fight it all the while, the Unions you so love, sat on their hands. Lykes was left cash strapped and on the verge of bankruptcy. I left in January of 1979, when LTV officially assumed control (SEC approval in December of 1978).

As remembered, just as the American steel industry entered a severe slump, Lykes was purchased for their coal mines by LTV, a large Texas-based conglomerate led by James J. Ling. As part of LTV Steel, which spent much of the 1980s and 1990s in bankruptcy, the old Youngstown steel plants that were left in the Chicago area laid off thousands of workers thanks to Jimmy Carter and his Trilateral Trade Agreement. My guess is, the reason Unions didn't act, it was to help Jimmy Carter with his addenda in forming a new World Order for David Rockefeller.

Here is some reading material for you so you can better understand how politicians operate for the elite Rich while the Unions fill their pockets with your money and believe me, it was never for the workers. What the elite Rich did for Jimmy Carter, they did the same for Obama. You watch, the unions who are willing to give back, will survive and those who don't, will go to the side of the road just like the steelworkers.

If you don't believe me, just look at the UAW and what they gave back. I see GM is building a plant in China. How does a union who has a member on the Board of Directors and owns the majority of the stock allow this to happen?

You will see one day that unions like to treat their members like mushrooms, "Covered With Manure".

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/One...

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54Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

TonyL,

How about doing a similar story on the Koch Brothers and Governor Walker:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/20...

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local...
And whether its the same as the relationship between Rupert Murdoch and Governor Kasich.

We already know that Governor Walker won't talk to public employees, citizens of his state, but will get on the phone quickly for lobbyist Koch.

How fast do you think Kasich gets on the phone for his puppet masters?

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55L0L(607 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Fattkid nice post!
Tony, I just completely disagree with you I don't know what else to say. Your claim that while the steel industry was going down, which by the way was due to their lack of re-investing and updating their equipment not Carter, the unions did nothing to help. But then in the next sentence you calim the unions fatten their pockets. If that was the case then wouldn't the unions have helped the steel industry to keep their pockets fat? Why would they want to lose their job and their cash cow? That makes no sense.

As for the unions as a whole I see good points and bad alike. What bothers me is people like you that sit here and blindly bash them. Did you get screwed by a union job? Passed up on a promotion? You blame union, union, union and no one else. I mentioned the bank industry several times and their bailouts but not a peep from you regarding them. You just keep ignoring teh fact that they are private and required the same government money that the auto industry did. But its all the unions fault right?

Republican rick, you sure are a republican all right. When you used schools to make your point it helped that you used the three highest paid in the valley right? Lets not take an average and throw in the lower paying ones lets go for gold!!! Also, not only did you use the highest paying you used their highest rates at their highest tiers. Teachers do not make that kind of money right out of the gate. Its more like $30k and after several years, earning a masters degree and becoming one of the old timers do the teachers make that kind of money. If they paid the way you claim they do I would've been a teacher!!

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56rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

tony l
were all covered in manure and kept in the dark, so tell me what is this bill really about. do you know, i dont , but once the foot is in the door theres no end.

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57Mondoman(6 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

If all of the multi-million dollar corporations doing business in Ohio would pay their fair share of taxes, rather than getting tax abatements, or tax credits for a miriad of reasons, Ohio's tax coffers would be overflowing with cash.

Stop picking on Joe middle-class union worker, and go after the real demons..

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58webad(156 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

I loves me some Fattkidd. His post peeled away the layers and a got right to the point. Historical evidence points to this: Big money wage slave-drivers want their well-funded politicians, ala Kasich and that numbskull crook & liar, Koch-butt kissing governor in Wisconsin, to take their, et al, tax cuts out of your hard-working low-paid benefit-starved hides. Private sector employees who blame the budget problems on public employees' wages and benefits are either jealous, stupid, sheep, or all three.

I once experienced trying to get temporary benefits years ago while I couldn't work. The public employees at the Fed/State assistance offices were mean, nasty, and cold to me. I got nada to help raise my kids while I was ill. What I got instead was the bum's rush right there at the benefit entry level. I still condemn the unfair treatment I received. But I won't let it blind me to the facts as they exist today in this attempt at yet another money grab by the rich. I will not shoot myself in the foot just to be vindictive.

I hope each one of us gets on the side of ALL of The People and stops thinking about just his or her own selfish glutei. Don't let the greedmeisters we elected do us in with the old divide and conquer strategy. If we let them, then sooner than you think we'll be in the streets like the Egyptians fighting for democracy or like the Libyans fighting just for the means feed ourselves. If you don't think they'll put us literally homeless in the streets .. think again.

This union rights squabble is just the camel's nose under the tent. And if we don't stop it now ... if we don't show the elected ones who they work for (that would be us .. not the rich non-taxpayers) then this hard rain that's fallin' is gonna keep on gettin' worse. Can you imagine it?

Get your news here, you fools. Watch it daily for one hour. Free your minds from the circus of CNN and Fox. Have a nice day.
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http://www.democracynow.org/

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59rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

well gas is 3.39 a gallon, spring is around the corner and god knows what it will be then. noone wants to touch these issues.

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60TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Here is what union bosses instill in the minds of their members, the most serious spiritual problem in the country today is reckless and untrammeled greed. Greed caused the disgraceful corporate scandals that fill our newspapers. Greed is responsible for crooked cops and crooked politicians. Greed causes the constant efforts to destroy unions that protect basic worker rights.

But, what Unions don’t say about their own greed and its members forcing companies to pay high wages even if the company is failing.

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61TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Geromajor, if you knew anything about running a company, it is like juggling balls until you can’t anymore. Instead of using balls, Steel companies have to use raw material cost, Labor Cost, Legacy Cost, Employee Taxes, State and local taxes and the big one, EPA fines. This adds up to be around $250.00/hr for every employee. Those were the days when the US was importing steel for $500.00/ton and it was costing the US mills that much to make it.

In 2000, Bethlehem Steel Corporation reported an annual loss of $118.4 million. Its stock value depreciated, and it was dropped from the standard Fortune 500 index. The Sparrows Point Plant in Baltimore Maryland that year alone had a legacy cost over $3.0 million/month. Bethlehem Steel filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on October 11, 2001.

The year 2002 did not bring any improvement in Bethlehem Steel’s financial status or union bargaining , and on December 18, 2002, the U.S. Pension Benefit Security announced that it would take over the company’s pensions, assets, and obligations.

Greed may have been a more serious problem for Americans, say, in the era of the robber barons. But the Cambells, and the Garys and the Morgans and the Carnegies were a small bunch of men. Now their greed has seeped down to a much larger segment of the population.

The Catholic Church speaks of four sins that cry to heaven for vengeance. Two are cheating workers out of wages and exploiting widows and children. Both happen every day in our greedy country. So, don’t count yourself and the unions out of the equation.

Ambition is not evil within limits. The struggle for success is not bad within limits. Hard work and fair rewards are good within limits. It is what the states had to do just to pay union demands with their Lotteries and raising taxes taking from the poor and give to the public worker, and that's exactly what this country is doing today.
Don't let anyone tell you that lust is the most deadly of the deadly sins.

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62smrt_enuf2leave(11 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Each side of an issue can find "facts" to support an argument. All it does is enrage everyone involved. There is a difference between facts and the truth.
In regards to public employees, there are simple things that we all know to be true.
While i have the utmost respect for cops, firefighters and teachers, the simple truth is that they can hardly be classified as "hard working Americans". With the exception of teachers and nurses, you could add up all the public employees, and count the number of college degrees between them on your fingers.
When you accept a job in public service, you know they are low paying professions, everyone knows that. Public unions should remain in place to ensure fare, and safe working conditions. Public employees being allowed to bargain collectively for wages, and benefits is only unfare to the taxpayer. Every time wages are increased, the taxpayers are held hostage by tax levy's and increases in sales and property taxes. In the corporate world you get ahead with raises and promotions based on your own performance. There is no reason this same practice would not be fare for the Ohio public employee.

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63TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

geromajor,
I can see you don't any history at all, the Cambells, and the Garys and the Morgans and the Carnegies were good managers, they kept the steelmaking mills alive during the depression while other businesses failed. They created companies with in to make equipment for the mills and expanding plants. Now I am talking with experience, my job allow me access to every steelmill in the USA, and can tell you, the bad management, as you label them, had moved out of union ranks into management. The CEO Williams for the Sheet & Tube moved from the labor dept to management. As labor got more costly, the more it cost to produce steel products and be able to compete with Jimmy Carter's Japanese Steel imports (Trilateral trade agreement). To get union members to leave union ranks for management jobs, Managers were given higher wages than union members. The younger union members jumped at the opportunity of higher wages while the older union members with seniority maintained their jobs. The 1980's years was the beginning of the wage war compounded by high production which had been jump started by President Reagan's import tariff. The tariff made the mills more competitive and high productivity created a shortage with manpower. Not having the luxury to sit out a USW strike, the mills gave into union demands. But the profits were not there to satisfy the shareholders and again, more high cost mills had to be shut down. Thus, the end of Big Steel made way to the more profitable non-union mini steel shops. With the lost of big steel unions became more unstoppable, even these shops could fight off the unions with their salting practice. As these companies became union shops, it was only a matter of a few years; they had to close their doors. In the last 50 years, I never saw a union keep a steel shop keep its doors open.
Currently, with the union's help, we got 50 states going broke and yet, the unions can give $600.0 million to politicians' campaigns..

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64rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

smrt enu2leave
i think all of us could find articles about ceo's, etc. in the corporate world that have resigned or been removed but still go home with healthy bonuses for bad performance. in the end who will make up that money. we will.

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65Education_Voter(816 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

"smrtenuf is obviously not "Smart Enough" evidence this quote:
While i have the utmost respect for cops, firefighters and teachers, the simple truth is that they can hardly be classified as "hard working Americans". With the exception of teachers and nurses, you could add up all the public employees, and count the number of college degrees between them on your fingers."

Firefighters of today are highly trained and most police have college training. Many firefighters have EMT and paramedic training -- in Boardman all do.

Not hard working? Probably a comment from someone behind a sales counter, or a desk. Public workers could look at those jobs and say the same thing.

This is just a comment from someone who has no understanding of the world as it is today.

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66rico13(19 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

education_voter
lets also not forget haz-mat and extracation for firefighters and other public employees that are required to have that training

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67smrt_enuf2leave(11 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

rico13,
I agree with your first comment. If a company took any kind of gov't bail out, anyone in that company receiving a bonus before that money has been paid back, is absolutely ridiculous. If the company did not take a taxpayer bail out. The company is free to give any bonus it feels necessary to any employee.

education_voter: Clearly, I have offended you as a teacher, but I stick by my statement. I do not consider teachers "hard working Americans" or "the backbone of the economy" as some of the posts claim them to be.
Most firefighters are highly trained, but the certifications you mentioned in your post, are not college degrees, and not that difficult to get. Also, the YSU police academy does not constitute a degree either. The only police department in the area that requires a degree for employment is Lordstown. Besides, who wants to graduate college, and then take a job for $24,900 a year? That is the starting salary for a police officer in Youngstown. Another point I was making is that civil service jobs are historically low paying. The pay is not the main focus of SB5, it collective bargaining for benefits.

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68smrt_enuf2leave(11 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

It looks like SB5 is about to become law. Keep your fingers crossed for privatization.

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69TonyL(44 comments)posted 3 years, 1 month ago

Maybe. all of you should learn more about the city you live in. This link indicates, the average wage for a government worker in Youngstown is $47,121.00. Please open this link and study it and you will see a decline in population from 1970 to 2009 of more than 60,000 people.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Youngst...

As you can see, in the last two elections, the majority of the people voted Democrat and next item you will notice will be your unemployment rate which, never went below 8% and is currently running at 12%. All I see is a town going down hill because of the lack of change in the individual mindset of a union town. This mindset reminds me of a drunk who falls into ditch face first and is too drunk to get out of it.

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