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Statewide drive to repeal SB 5 gets green light



Published: Sat, April 16, 2011 @ 12:10 a.m.

By Marc Kovac

news@vindy.com

COLUMBUS

Opponents of collective-bargaining reform passed by Republican lawmakers and signed into law by Gov. John Kasich have been given the green light to collect signatures to repeal the law.

Secretary of State Jon Husted certified the initial signatures submitted by the group We Are Ohio, and Attorney General Mike DeWine approved the language contained in the shorter of two petitions submitted to his office to review.

The approvals from the two Republican officeholders were needed before We Are Ohio could circulate its petitions. The group will need to collect more than 231,000 signatures from registered voters throughout the state before the end of June to qualify for the November ballot.

Senate Bill 5 opponents don’t think they’ll have a problem meeting those requirements.

“Most petition-drive campaigns in this state struggle to get volunteers to help them,” said Dennis Willard, a spokesman for We Are Ohio. “We have thousands of people asking us not where do I sign?” but where do I sign up to become a petition circulator.

Senate Bill 5 places limits on collective bargaining, changing the way public workers have negotiated contract terms for nearly three decades.

It allows more than 350,000 public employees to negotiate for wages, hours, safety-equipment needs and working terms and conditions but not other issues.

It prohibits those workers from striking, caps employer contributions to health-care premiums and requires employees’ pay to be based on their performance, not solely on seniority.

The bill passed the Ohio House and Senate on mostly party-line votes and was signed into law by Kasich late last month.

Proponents say the law enables state and local governments to control their costs better, but opponents say it’s a politically motivated attack on unions.

Opponents have about 90 days to complete the referendum process to place the legislation on the November ballot. If they succeed, Senate Bill 5 will not take effect until after the election — or never if voters reject it.

On Friday, Husted certified 2,506 signatures of 2,835 collected by the group, which needed 1,000 to meet the initial referendum requirement. The secretary of state also signed off on the full text of Senate Bill 5, which was submitted to his office for review.

DeWine OK’d the summary language for the shorter version of We Are Ohio’s petition but rejected a longer version, saying it was “far too lengthy and detailed to be considered a short and concise summing up of the matter.”

Willard said We Are Ohio will launch the petition drive in coming days. Additional information about that effort will be available on the group’s website, www.weareohio.com.

The most recent referendum to repeal an Ohio law was an unsuccessful effort in 2008 by the payday-loan industry to overturn limits passed by lawmakers.


Comments

1familyman123(7 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

if you are a registered voter please sign to have bill thrown away ..it is desperately needed

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2timOthy(802 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Where do I sign ! familyman your lost .

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3SAVEOURCOUNTRY(470 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Stop the attacks on the middle class.....get out and vote against this bill...
Governor Scott Walker of WI has admitted this crap he and KASICK and several other Republican governors are trying WILL NOT BALANCE ANY BUDGET.....It simply to dismantle those who support views different than their own. However, Democrats must wake up and push a more moderate agenda that is good for all.

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4UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

SB5 is good for Ohio's private sector middle class. It prevents massive tax increases on those who can least afford them. It will end the plush pay, cadillac healthcare, and golden pension plans for the greedy public employee unions who fiddle with 5BS while Ohio burns. Except for the union mentality Mahoning Valley, the SB5 repeal effort will go down in flames in November if it even makes it that far.

Just the fact that public employees on average only pay 9% for their healthcare and average 23% more pay then the private sector for similar jobs, will unite the 5 million private sector workers into voting to sustain SB5.

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5faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

SB5 prohibits political contributions via payroll deductions. How does this balance anything, how does this create any jobs? As for the private employees, they have been under attack for 30 years. Since Regan, over 20% of private union employees jobs have been lost. Only like 7% of the private workforce is unionized. The only ones left are often vilified in the media. I hope the public union workers realize this and start standing in solidarity with ALL union workers. If not, next time they come for you there will be no one in the private sector to help!

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6disgustedjoker(46 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

didnt you guys watch cnn? did you see that the republicans are giving tax breaks to the big corporations while they are attacking the middle class, working people and the poor. GE paid ZERO dollars in taxes and BANK OF AMERICA paid ZERO in taxes! Are you really serious? These are billion dollar companies that are not held to the same standards as the working class. I have to pay taxes!!! Lets start reducing the budget by taking away the "travel reimbursements" from our elected officials which amounts to over 2 mill a year. Somethings wrong here!! Im all for reductions but until EVERYONE feels the pain, this will continue to be an attack on the working people while the wealthy are skating by unharmed....

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7faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

America has a revenue problem. If i cant pay my bills i get another job, i dont stop buying food and give money to people who dont need it and hope they will "trickle" some back to me.

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8Attis(879 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

On this tax weekend when I and tens of millions of other hard-working Americans have to send a colossal chunk of our earned income to Columbus and D.C. and get next to nothing in return except wars without end and tyrannical bills like SB5, while the fat cats and big corporations (like G.E.) pay nothing, there is nothing I would rather do than repeal SB5 and remove from office every prostituted crook that voted for this attack upon labor. If you support SB5 you must either be super rich or a super idiot.

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9disgustedjoker(46 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

I agree faith but you also dont make millions a year and keep feeding the wealthy while the working class continues to see decreases in pay and increases in gas and food! The problems we are facing are far beyond SB5 and this governor refuses to face them. How about starting by moving in to the mansion instead of the taxpayers footing the bill for millions of dollars in updates to your current home. Kasich, put your money where your mouth is buddy!!!!!! How about filling your gas tank up on your own dime, like I do, instead of charging the taxpayer for it when traveling to do what you were elected to do! These are all common sense things that should be first and foremost. Lead by example, is all Im saying!!!!

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10valleyred(1097 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

I would sign just to vote Against the Repeal of this bill. Ohio needs SB5. If you want higher taxes, then go ahead and repeal it.

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11faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

valleyred, higher taxes are coming through your local government, this will happen with or without SB5. SB5 will hurt Ohio and her workers. Less pay means less taxes paid. Who will pick up the lost revenue from the tax base? Surly not the business or wealthy, they will get tax breaks with an empty promise that it will trickle down.

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12faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Jay, so business, which have an interest in profits, are the same as unions that have an interest in workers rights? do you really believe this? Unions contributions pale in comparison to those given to the politicos. I will stand by working folks any day of the week! Even Sunday, the Lords day, a day of rest (or at least premium pay) thanks to unions.

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13faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Unions have lobbied for workers right for 100 years in America. I am dumbfounded that some folks believe that corporations or business care more about people than profits. Public sector workers make to much? Is this because we have attacked the private sector for 30 years and their wages have fallen? Will it help our economy when every American in making $20,000 a year? Hard working public and private sector workers qualify for food stamps. NOW, the GOP wants to take food stamps away along with Medicare and Medicaid. HELLO!!

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14jwhitehawke(91 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Sadly, this is the time of reckoning. I understand that liberals expected our grandchildren to have to pay the piper, but Ohioans are going to have to account for Strickland and his using the stimulus to prop up out-of-control spending, Time to spend what we have and not continue feeding those who only care about a free lunch at the expense of the private sector.

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15faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

No one wants a free lunch except the GOP. The reckoning is coming, has been for 30 years. My kids are not going to worry about the governments debt, they are gonna be worried about paying off student loans, paying for health care, and trying to eat. God forbit they want to be teachers, at $17,000 a year, they will be in debt forever. This is exactly what the banks want! When our survival is at stake we stop caring about the dept of our government. Business doesn't care about the debt, Wall Street does not care about the Debt, and the GOP wants to put it all on the backs of working taxpayers. If anyone thinks SB5 of the GOP agenda is actually about doing anything but lining their own pockets, then you are a fool. Our governor is leading by example, look at the pay RAISES he has giving his buddies, even created a new job for one of them at over $140,000.00 yr plus perks!

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16stewie(109 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Seems like some people have forgotten about what a mess Taft made of things, raised taxes on everything. Not to mention his coin gate situation. Like G.W. he had two terms to do his damage. Like Obama it would have taken Stricklin at least 4 terms to straighten it out. Some people wanted it done over night! Yeah right! Now Kasich wants to continue taft's legacy.
Shame on us democats for letting this happen.
We are supposed to learn form our mistakes.

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17faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Jay wrote "Actually many of the benefits MOST people enjoy came from the government, not the unions" This is true but only because unions lobbied the government. Look at minimum wage, the UAW spent $ to lobby for this even though every UAW member makes more than that. Health care? same thing. Now the GOP wants to eliminate child labor laws cuz kids need a better work ethic. REALLY? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Jay thinks unions are corrupt? And what is not? Churches? Corporations? Non-profits? Politics? Every organization has bad apples that are not reflective of the entire organization.

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18faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

jay, you need to read the bill not the newspaper to understand what is wrong with SB5.
Don't know where you get your cool aid but it is tainted. I guess if your a tea bagger then the taint is ok with you anyway.

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19Sickofit2(9 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

I have been a public employee for 15 1/2 years. I also have a bachelor's degree. Just this past year, I finally hit the $40,000 mark. How do you raise a family on that? My projected PERS pension is $24,000 a year. How will I be living in the lap of luxury after my family is grown and I can finally retire?? So saying that public employees are getting rich is a bunch of lies, I also have a job in the private sector (hard to believe that we rich public employees need to work 2 jobs to raise our families, isn't it?) with a billion dollar corporation that has record profits, yet pays it's employees minimum wage & expects me to work a 9 hour shift without even a 30 minute lunch break. I work alone and have to sneak into the restroom between customers, if mother nature calls. Am I for unions? Absolutely. I only wish I could bring the union into my private sector job so that these employees don't have to work in the sweat shop conditions that they are forced while the rich get richer and take advantage of the middle class and poor.

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20faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Sickofit2, THANK YOU for telling the truth. I wish more people took the time too.

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21Iwannamove(61 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

wow Republicans are amazing with all the lies....and unfortunately like Jay, Union Forever, etc we have people who are swayed by there silver tongues. Never in our history has a Republican done anything to help the poor or middle class. Some that are depending on them must either be filthy rich or plain stupid. What amazing me the most is what the GOP gets away with. Lets see crooked, fixed elections like Georgie boy got in for two terms or just promising people a band-aid for bigger problems and fools falling for them.

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22faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Not backed in the corner, laughing all the way to the voting booth.

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23CompMan(125 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

The answer is quite easy. Don't vote for any tax increase levies. No new levies, no replacement levies and no extension of current levies. Without the revenue changes will have to be made. The voting taxpayer takes back control of fiscal responsibility; understanding services may be cut. Hence SB5 really does not need to exist.

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24faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Jessie,

It is well known, conservatives always attack those who speak the truth, and they in turn use half truths, and/or incredible non factual accusations, along with vile name calling rants, rather than merely providing all of true facts.

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25faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

My last post was as original as yours.

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26faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

At least the taint thing was funny. And reading all the lies on here i need to laugh in order to stay sane.

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27faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Jay, all that and not one fact and thats good.
One fact alone does not tell the story. the truth is I don't vote for all D's or R's, but I do know the D's have stood by the working class in this country. The R's, starting with Regan when Wall ST. took over the white house, have been attacking American workers and their way of life.
I'll give you a hint; follow the money.

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28mrblue(983 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

For it or against it---------this is going to be a real battle all the way to the November elections. This could be the crown jewel or the beginnig of the end for the Gov.

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29faith(200 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

If you get your facts from news papers then that explains it.

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30Brit(18 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

REALITY CHECK!!!
This isn't the 60s or 70's anymore. Kids nowadays many times take guns and knives to school. They are a threat to teachers and it is not unusual to see in the news about kids killing and threatening classmates, teachers, principals, even their own parents! People think teachers don't deserve what they have gone to college and worked hard to earn?

Try being a teacher and you have to babysit 20-30 kids for eight hours a day, 5 days straight and on top of it you have to teach them, prepare lesson plans, keep grade books, have conferences, make bulletin boards, organize the room, grade papers, meet with parents, write notes to parents, prepare tests, run off copies of teaching tools, deal with kids that are trouble and deal with parents who are in some cases as immature and delinquent as their kids, and far more!!!!! These teachers work before school, after kids go home, and at nights and on weekends on school related stuff. I know! I am married to a teacher. The pressure is unbelievable what they go through. They don't have enough time in the day. They work 60 hour weeks if you include what they do at home for school. They use their own money to buy kids supplies without reimbursement. Many parents won't buy their own kids supplies. Teachers pay huge amounts out of their pay check for health care. Teachers are invested with one of the most important jobs in our country and they are over worked, under paid, under appreciated and vilified by ignorant people who obviously need an education of their own. These people have gone to college and are "professionals". You know what the lowest paying professional job is for college grads? Teachers rank second behind social workers. They deserve respect and support not foolish attacks. If not for teachers there would be more ignorance and it is education that creates success for people and our country. Education and teachers should be supported! The alternative is ignorance.

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31Brit(18 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Every American who cares about people and workers in this country need to fight SB5. Get out and don't just sign the petition, but circulate it! This bill is a power grab and takes both voice and rights away from Americans and seeks to turn this country into a corporate dictatorship with people like Kasich exploiting the gullible. Kasich is nothing but a delusional, greedy, Wall St. cheat. This state needs someone who cares about people and doesn't want to scrap every good program and agency that benefits people. Kasich is the worst thing that ever happened to Ohio and no patriotic American should put up with this bill, or his schemes that he passes off as a "solution". He is one of the ones that gave Wall St. breaks and helped so Wall St. and corporations could have free reign to lie, cheat, exploit, pollute and steal at the expense of our country. Now he wants to turn Ohio into a possible "sweat shop" place where workers can be over worked, over charged, under paid, and subjected to toxic and unsafe working conditions because power is taken away from them and handed over to greedy people where number one priority is greed! I have seen him way too many times over the years spouting anger and saying ridiculous and insensitive things. He doesn't care about people and his "solutions" will ruin this state. It is time for people by the hundreds of thousands across this country who care about people and want real solutions to protest and stop Kasich, Walker and others who have only self serving idea. They mislead some into thinking they are going to make things better. People who supported these delusional politicians in some cases have to learn the hard way that they wasted votes, but the majority of this country isn't going to tolerate this. The people of this country are losing power. Even our votes are being belittled. Last year the Republican faction of the Supreme Court gave corporations the power to donate unlimited amounts of money to candidates. It throws the election to one person who can dwarf everyone else with propaganda and smear no matter how dishonest. It takes power away from ordinary people who want to donate and have their votes count and then that politician is bought and paid for to feel obligated. Kasich and Walker serve the rich 3% while 97% "middle class" pay! REPEAL SB5!

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32palbubba(664 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Faith, your screen name must refer to your faith in Democrats. While they preach they are for the poor they consistently raise taxes on cigarettes, beer and liquor which are used extensively by the poor. They have done nothing to further the plight of the poor. It is not Democrats or Republicans that are corrupt, it is the evil greedy politicians that keep getting reelected because of people with blind faith. If Democrats are so much for the poor why was there no progress made under Bill Clinton and his Democratic congress? Why has there been no progress made under Barrack Obama after two years of Democratic control? If anyone is drinking Kool aid it is certainly you.

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33Rockabilly(93 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Vote for the repeal of SB 5 and any Republicans ever on a ballot.

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34fattynskinny(195 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

jay1981 i'm with you. support sb5.

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35Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Vote out all GOP/tea/KKK 'er PLEASE

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36walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

When they can't battle them with the facts, the liberals always start name-calling; tea-baggers, KKK, etc. I will sign the petition to put this on the ballot and then I will encourage everyone to vote "NO" to restore some sanity to this country.

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37devildog(96 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

to Brit....well said!
teaching is the profession that teaches other professions!
we all need or needed good teachers to get somewhere in life and become successful, pay them what they are worth! Opps....probably could never afford to!

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38Tigerlily(488 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

I can't wait for the petition to come around. I'll be signing it. And in November, I'll be voting to repeal this vicious and heinous piece of legislation. All of my friends and family will be, too. Only those 30% of Ohioans who blindly follow their Tea Party Cult Leaders will be voting against the repeal. The over 60% percentage of disapproval of Kasich's reign already proves that the result will be repeal. This is also why he's trying to stuff all of the measures of SB5 into a budget, like the dishonorable lout that he is.

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39meagain(80 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Just a few thoughts to consider:
- If SB5 truly "allows 350,000 public employees to negotiate wages" why does the actual bill establish salary schedules for teachers that are based on merit and student performance? (I won't even begin to go into the reasons this is a horrible idea in this comment.)
- How will this "student performance" be measured? Testing is not cheap (why do you think schools do it - someone's making alot money off of it, hint: it's not the teachers or average citizen). It will in actuality cost far more than anyone realizes.Who's going to pay or that? I have a guess.
- The wages given as examples by those in favor of SB5 are extremes and not represenative of the average and BTW when did $55,000 (the average) become too much money? Remember that figure is pretax and dedcuctions which include fica and medi.
-To those in favor of SB5: Do you think you personally will see any tax relief from this? It's not like the state is going to write a big fat check to its citizens. You're crazy if you think you'll actually see any of the savings "trickle down" to you. That is if there are any savings. You can't fix billions in finaincial issues by taking from people who on average make under $60,000 a year.
- Ask yourself why the Koch brothers are so invested (literally to the tune of millions) if this is just a way for Ohio to ease its financial burdens. They have no reason to care unless this isn't about fixing Ohio but rather destroying the working middle class.
-There are ways to fix our state's financial woes. Our politicians lack the political will to truly do what is right for all our citizens. Instead they pit us against each other and wait for us to self destruct. Meanwhile the politicians, regardless of being republican or democrat, and all their friends continue to make more money than you or I will ever see.
- There is always room for reform and certainly things that could stand to change. This isn't the way to do it.

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40justsayin(42 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Rather than name calling, would one of the anti-SB5 folks on here please provide a detailed plan as to how the state is supposed to pay for the pension and health care obligations? Thank you.

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41Sickofit2(9 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

First off Jessie, you talk about public employees as if they don't pay taxes. We are taxpayers just like the private sector. The only difference is, I, as a public employee also have to pay my own wages because I am paying the same taxes as you do. But here's the catch, because I'm a public employee who will be collecting PERS, I will not be able to collect the full Social Security that I have paid in as a private employee. My benefits will be offset because of my PERS. Do you have your SS benefits offset when your employer matches your 401K?? Hardly. So let's talk about the golden pensions the public employee gets. I have always wondered how millions of people could be led to the gas chambers without fighting back. Now I can see. There are so many untruths being spewed and because people are so hateful when they think that the guy next door might have it a little better than they do, they believe anything thrown at them. Hitler said he would have one half of the poor, kill the other half....so goes Kasich.

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42Sickofit2(9 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Amen Meagain. Very well stated.

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43chairman(12 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Repeal Senate Bill 5 and while were at it lets recall Kasich!

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44stewie(109 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

So Jay, without the right to strike how do you think the employees are to negotiate a fair wage?
All the board has to say is no, and what are you going to do about it? Your one means of leverage is gone! This is nothing more than a republican union busting tactic. This bill will be thrown out at the polls. If you are that upset with it I suggest you take your anti union conservative butt down south to a right to work state where you'll feel more at home.

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45Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Brit-well written
First off, I really wish people would stop pointing fingers at the "public workers." We did not make the debt but all of a sudden we are being punished for working hard. I am a teacher who spent many years going to college (as did so many other public employees). I did not get into this field because I would get "RICH." I chose to be a teacher because I enjoy working with children and felt I was good at it. Yes, I make a good living, have good insurance and retirement (if anything will be left). I could go work in the "private sector and make more than I do now. Do I get a car allowance or a free phone, NO! Do I get overtime, NO! I don't get paid for all the hours I spend on school-related work before and after school. I spend hours each weekend grading papers and preparing for the coming week. I receive no "extra-time."I spend money out of my own pocket for children because their parents won't. However, most of these parents drive the best cars, get their nails done and wear high-end clothing (have found they really enjoy bashing educators). Do I get reinbursed? No! I realized a long time ago that this comes with the territory. So instead of attacking hard-working employees let's stand together to put an end the high cost of "WELFARE." No one seems to care that the hard working people are paying for thousands of people in Ohio to live off the working class. Instead it is easier to attack the people who work the hardest. I don't know many teachers who only work their 8/9 hour daily shift. By the way, many teachers work an additional job in the summer months. I have never had off 3 months in any summer. I attend conferences, continue my education or teach summer school. At the start of August I'm back in the classroom preparing for the next school year (as are thousands of other teachers). Does a fireman leave a burning house just because his shift is over, NO! Does a police officer leave the scene of an accident because his shift is over, NO!
Public employees chose their field of work and so did you! If you are jealous of the working class or miserable with your current job then by all means do something about it. If you think you have what it takes to be a teacher, police officer, fireman, etc.... then by all means go for it.
Public employees are the ones who reinvest their hard earnings back into our local economies. If you think SB5 is the answer then by all means vote for it. However, if you think the economy is bad now wait. Maybe some of you should take the time to really read through the bill instead of just reading parts of it through the local newspapers and media. For all of the people who think "public education" is "poor" now just wait. If you can read this than make sure you "THANK A TEACHER!"

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46Freeatlast(1991 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Jay1981 that was true in the start of the KKK but in the end the GOP took them over . READ your history books . And the Tea party is just the KKK by a other name . Where were they when Bush put us in the hole .It is funny that came out from under their rock when the Black guy got in . It is nice to pick out parts of history that fit your agenda but that does not make it right .And if you can read thank a teacher not the GOP thugs.
And if you have kids I hope they do not get taught by a $15.000 a year teacher .

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47ytownredux(117 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

JessieDavid: I really appreciate you providing that link, I actually did take the time to read the entire thing, did you? Did you read the sidebar, I found that most interesting of all. It compares the Private Sector retirements -vs- the Public Sector retirement and guess what? It blows your theory out of the water.

Did you know that the employees in the public sector in ohio do not get social security benefits?? When you add the pensions and the social security for private sector retirees, they are making $26,025 dollars a year compared to the public sectors only making $25,736 a year. So ummm, you are WRONG Jessiedavid. I have posted the sidebar of your article below to remind you.

GET RID OF SB5!!!!

Public vs. private: Plans hard to compare
It’s often assumed that public-sector employees have it better than their private-sector counterparts where retirement is concerned.
But making direct comparisons is difficult because of the variability in retirement plans.
Virtually all government workers have defined-benefit pension plans, in which they and their employers contribute toward a multibillion-dollar pool of assets that are invested. When they retire, the employees get a fixed amount of money from that pool, based on their years of service and highest annual salaries.
In Ohio, the average state and local government retiree is paid $25,736 a year. That’s 7 percent more than the $24,052 average pension for government retirees nationwide, according to the Congressional Research Service.
Private-sector pensions and annuities average $13,326, the research arm of Congress said. Slightly more than half of private-sector retirees supplement their pensions with income from Social Security, which averages $12,699 a year.
Those are national figures. The research service did not break down its data by state.
Government employers in Ohio do not pay into Social Security, as pensions supplant the role of Social Security income for over-65 government retirees in the state.

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48Rights4All(3 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

In Ohio, the average govt. retiree is paid $25,736 a year and the conservatives are calling that a golden pension plan? I doubt the govt. retirees are vacationing in Palm Springs on $25,736 a year. How much should we cut their pensions to make the outraged and angry tax payers happy?

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49ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Righ4All: You seem to have the facts, how about posting your source?

Better yet, how about sending it to sending it to Todd Franko, tfranko@vindy.com. that way he can add it to the fact finding sites to research the public sectors benefits, then we can makeup our own minds, I do believe your figure is no where close to the norm, the large retirements are still coming, the overpaid public sector employees just have not retired yet, that day of reckoning is still down the road, just like in the 70's with the steel industry. They just did not see it coming, but it did and we all know how that ended. We have a chance to stop this now with SB5, making changes later will just not work.

More taxes is not the answer, adjust the salaries and benefits starting at the top, and working your way down to the bottom, then asses if we need all of these layers of administrators and assistants in between, which I also believe can be cut by at least 25-40%, too many chiefs and not enough indians, though we all know how we got to that many chiefs, through new job classifications and promotions without hiring any entry level workers.

Everybody is a boss and very few workers, have you driven past a road crew lately? That will give you the picture.

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50walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Tellingthetruth,
Your name is not quite accurate. If you are a teacher, you most certainly are paid for your lesson planning ang grading papers on your own time. You enter into a contract with the board of education and certain things are then expected of you. You teach students for 180 days and you are required to do inservice days also. But, you can also receive supplemental contracts from the board for things like coaching a sport or being an advisor. If you teach summer school, you make extra money. And , things like seminars and continuing education are required of most all of the professions, medical, law, acc'ting, engineering.

But, let's be honest. Most teachers go into the profession because, once you get a few years of seniority, you make a pretty good living, your job status is reasonably safe, you get all holidays off, you get a nice summer vacation, 7 am to 4 pm workshift with weekends off, good work environment and benefits, and very nice retirement package. Sure, you won't get rich but it is a good gig.

ANd, the best part, you are not judged by the quality of work that you produce. These standardized and state tests are a joke meant to appease the public and politicians. Don't tell me it is not the case as my sister was a teacher and administrator and I have heard the stories. Nothing infuriates good teachers more than the high school history and health teachers that are also coaches that have used the same lesson plans for 20 years and are skating through. BTW, I can read this and I would like to thank my first grade teacher, Sister Carol at St. Dominic's School, that taught 35 kids and took a vows of obedience, chastity, and POVERTY to be a nun.

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512muchtax(321 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

If I was a public employee with a golden pension I would be fighting for it also. The big problem is the majority of people dont have these benefits. Most private companies have got rid of their pension plans and screwed the private sector employee, but the public employee still wants there 50-60,ooo a year after only 30yrs. I think everyone should be Social security and will not sign for repeal SB5

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52Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Walter, no I am not paid for after school or before school hours. I am not paid for the time I spend of my "own"time on weekends. Yea, I am paid for 180 days but if I don't finish my work I have to take it home. If I give a test and don't have a chance to grade it during my planning time (which is usually consumed of planning for daily lessons along with grade level meetings, etc..)then I must take it home. I don't feel it is very meaningful to give a test and not give feedback until a week later.
Now if I work in the private sector when my shift is done, I'm done! I don't know many doctors taking work home.
Continuing my education is not required in ALL private sector jobs! Yea, doctors and lawyers but remember their making 3 or 4 times what I will ever make. So there is no comparsion. It is ok that a doctor charges me 100plus dollars to see me all of 10 minutes and then may not see another patient for 2 or 3 hours. I don't see anyone attacking them. Please, let's not even go there. I'm not saying some people do not go into the educational field for the wrong reasons but that is not everyone. Teaching today is not what it was like 5, 10 or 20 years ago. I don't know how teachers are still teaching the same things they were years ago. We have standards that have changed and are currently in the process of changing again. If they are teaching the same lessons and using the same plans then maybe we need to be looking at the administators.
As I stated before not allowing public workers to collectively bargin is not going to help the budget. Again, it seems as though you feel you are entitled to something more..... then by all means go to college and get a teaching degree. However, I'm sure just like so many other people out there you wouldn't last at it.
Being so negative will do nothing for you. By the way I'm telling the truth because I deal with it everyday. So before you criticize others why don't you take the time to walk in their shoes.

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53Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

One other thing Walter...
I have 28 students in my class. I'm sure when you were in school (a class of 35) your teacher did not have students on IEPS or 504s. Everyone was taught the same way. The teacher went on whether or not you learned it. Today, teachers are required by law to follow these plans. Everyone learns differently so we must vary our teaching methods, which was not what it was like when you or I were in school. So thank you for the dig of 35 students and a nun who took vows. Even if I was not a teacher they deserve more respect and higher salaries. Wake up America!

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54HonestAbe(274 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

I see a bit of a similarity here between the Catholic church and Republicans. They both follow the same "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. (Those nuns certainly took a vow of poverty, but the pope and his cardinals and bishops certainly didn't!) Another similarity...neither treat women very well. I see a big part of SB5 as an attack mostly on teachers and the teaching profession...and teaching has certainly been a female-dominant profession. Just an observation....

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55penguinfan1(29 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Wisconsin gov. Walker admits that these collective bargaining bills do nothing to help balance the budget in Wisconsin. Same goes for Ohio.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opini...

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56walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Honest Abe,
Not all Catholic clergy take vows of poverty. However, the Dominincan order, like the Franciscan order, do take poverty vows. But, when you are the beacon of light in the world, there are always those that want it extinguished.

Tellingthetruth,
I guess you don't quite understand this. You are paid a SALARY under a CONTRACT. Thus, for an agreed upon sum of compensation, you are required to perform certain duties. If these duties require you to bring work home, so be it. I am on salary and often work extra hours, weekends, or bring work home to get the job done so my company can remain profitable.

Now, while CEU's are not required of all private sector jobs, theyare required for most of the profession that I previosly listed. Even though I am an engineer with a Master's degree, I still need at least 14 hrs. to maintain my license in Ohio and even more for licenses in other states.

As far as not respecting teachers, I do respect good teachers. Certainly, the modern-day teacher has many requirements on them for student evaluation, such as Individualized Education Programs and the 504s to evaluate needs based on ADA needs. (As I said, my sister was a teacher and my son is studying to be a special-ed teacher.) But, much of this is federal govt. requirements for which schools will receive extra funds under title programs. I told my children to definitely consider becoming a teacher. I often thought about it but it would have to have been at the collegiate level. I didn't want to get a doctorate, however, so I went into the private sector.

I'm not denigrating teachers or the jobs they do. I have been the benefactor of many outstanding teachers in my public high school and at college. Just as I realize that I probably would have difficulty in being a school teacher, I'm sure you also could not handle the job I do as an engineer. But, my point is, I am getting sick and tired with teachers complaining about the amount of hours they work and what you are paid. Or, what about the teachers that have collective bargaining with their union for 9 months and then paint houses in the summer for cut wages, taking money out of the pockets of their union brothers. And, your comparison to a medical doctor is ludicrous. Most doctors have massive college debts and have to purchase their way into a practice. Then, they have to have equipment and office staff that is paid for out of their fees. Let's face it, like I said before, teaching is a really good gig once you get a few years under your belt.

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57Cowboyfan(105 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

ValleyRed. What does you stopping me from bargaining for a fair wage got to do with raising your taxes? We haven't had a raise OR step increase for 3 years. Sure a heck won't get one on next contract because they are busting the union. Have your taxes gone down?

As for Cadillac insurance I would like to know where you get your information people. I pay 80/20 and I have for 20 years. Same as my non-union wife. I pay co-insurance and I pay a co-pay. Don't judge all state workers for a few lucky people. I have no problem making it equal. I have no problem getting rid of double dipping. I have no problem not accruing sick hours. I have a problem gutting Unions.

I pay into my retirement. I pay in a lot more than I would if I was paying social security. I fought for this country and I have worked for and earned every penny I get. So because the private sector was allowed to screw all of you haters, I should be screwed too.

51000 good paying jobs will be lost if this bill is not repealed. Then we will be coming after your private jobs with bigger degrees and more experience.

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58Cowboyfan(105 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

$25,736 a year is a golden pension, are you kidding me.

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592muchtax(321 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Goto you tube and type in "Sandy Lake, Georgia" Pretty interesting video. This needs to be passed around along with www.buckeyeinstitute.org

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60Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 5 months ago

Walter
Yes, I do know I am under a contract.... Do you think I am stupid. I can tell you don't value the worth of a teacher. You are missing the point..... Every time you post something you state how good of a gig a teacher has.... I could care less how much debt a doctor, lawyer, etc... has SO DO TEACHERS! I don't hear to many teachers crying about the hours they work. What I am tired of hearing about is how teachers only work an 8 hr. day or we get 3 months off. Neither of which are TRUE! How about it is time the people respect the field of education instead of constantly bashing it. This is what I am tired of. Again, working in the "private sector" I could make double what I'm making. I'm sure you'll get your social security! So quit saying what a good gig teachers have because what I can see SO DO YOU!!! Maybe you should sit down with your son and tell him how little of respect you have for teachers. Also tell him how you think he doesn't deserve the respect, pay, pension, etc.. by being a teacher...Great one DAD!

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61thinkthentalk(260 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Ive come to the conclusion that republicans and tea baggers failed math and civics classes in school. they wasted trillions in iraq, cut taxes for the rich equal to todays deficit. Now they blame the deficit on the unions, teachers, public employees and retired medicare recipients? come on!

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62TurnOffTheTV(3 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

It seems people are angry at the belief that public-sector employees have a golden parachutte and CEO-like paychecks. I have several points:

1. We should be angry at the our elected officials who are making these middle-class individuals the scapegoat for all the problems of the nation. If elected officials are serious about fiscal responsibility, perhaps they should not pass laws which eliminate the estate tax ONLY for estates worth over $350,000.

2. We should not be angry that the individuals who, on a daily basis, face death in order to keep our homes, property, and families safe from fires and criminals have decent pay and benefits. These individuals would choose our lives over their own. Let them retire at age 55 with a pension. They have earned it.

3. If public-sector work is so wonderful, the people bemoaning the salaries and benefits should go to college, earn a degree (most teachers earned a Masters Degree) and get a "government" job. Such individuals will quickly change their minds when they realize people working in the public-sector with similar degrees earn much more.

4. Do we really want the next generation, upon whom we will be dependent in our later years, being taught by a 70-year old financially-strapped teacher who cannot retire because her benefits and pension were taken away to give a tax break to the upper-class (who laugh at us as we argue SB5).

5. I challenge anyone to find someone who chose to work for the government because it is a financial windfall. If these individuals wished to accumulate a vast fortune in a small amount of time, they would work for a Fortune 500 company and bankroll all-inclusive-first-class trips for our elected officials to golf in England and Scotland. Then said elected officials sponsor legislation to help said company earn an extra $500 million (tax free, of course).

6. If we really want to make a difference in the way our government is run, turn off Dancing with the Stars, quit blogging to bemoaning how the unions are "fleecing" the taxpayer, and research for whom we will vote.

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63HSG(123 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

If corporations like GE, Boeing and Bank of America would pay their fair share of taxes, heck, pay any taxes, the states would not be in the financial straits they're in! Those of you who scapegoat public employees and unions are doing exactly what the fat cats want you to. Of the top ten contributors to major political campaigns, only three were unions: i.e., groups supporting the democrat in the race. The other seven were organizations supporting the republicans. Apparently those three unions need to be done away with- they are in the way of the corporate oligarchy getting every damn thing they want in this country, which is the decimation of a viable middle class. You fools who whine about being taxed too much need to start paying attention and stop allowing yourselves to be used by the republicans, who care nothing for you, but will say they do so you'll continue to do fight against your own interests.

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64Mondoman(6 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

SB5 will do nothing to help with our budget woes, period. What we need is tax reform. Let's get a real tax code that's simple, easy, and impossible to cheat. Institute a !5% flat tax on all earnings over $25K, no loopholes, no deductions, no Corp. tax abatement s.

I'll bet that within ten years, we will all be out of the red..

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65fsffm(1 comment)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

The democratic chairman said it all on the TV -- This has nothing to do with the middle class -- It's all about money flowing from the unions to the Democratic party. This bill may interfer with the dues on union members which are then made contributions to the Democratic party. The head of the teachers union was on national TV saying they have power because of the billions they collect -- Most of this money is donated to elect Democrats to keep the money coming -- Want to guess how much was used to improve teaching to the students -- you got it 0. Wake up people.

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66commoncitizen(961 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

fsffm,
You said it all, excellent response.
My question to all of the union backers, when you pay your union dues each pay can you tell the union you do not agree with their choice (on issues or candidates)? If you do not agree with them do you get some of your dues back? or are you just "lost" sheep and follow what they say?

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67fedupwithcrap(317 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Why did the vindy cancel the comments on the Jamie ludt page, and why are the comments not being able to be seen since it was the most popular story with 260 comments?

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68ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Go away Jamie, can't you take a hint?

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69fedupwithcrap(317 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Why is the vindy stopping the freedom of speech to all who were commenting on the Youngstown Man Caught Tailing Officers? I didn't know we lived in Russia!!!

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70fedupwithcrap(317 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

fedupwithcrap (anonymous) says...
Lets go back as far as 2007, as people have claimed on here, that Ludt edits his videos. And see as this video was clearly not edited, and he got the eyewitnesses right then and there that Pat Bundy, Captain, came to Ludts house cussing at him!! The minutes and seconds are clearly on this tape!!

You watch this video, Captain Bundy sent pictures of Jamie Ludt and his underage son to his house, does this now make him a pedophile for taking pictures of underage children? (Charlie Sheen syndrome winning)

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71ytown1(392 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

PLEEEAAASE!!!!! Do not trash any other of the stories, you have done enough damage, if you keep it up they will stop you from posting altogether, there has to be something in the rules that you are breaking. Are you watching Vindy?

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72fedupwithcrap(317 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

@ytown, people like you make rude and ignorant comments toward people, and I tell the truth, and I am violating rules?

I read the rules and there is nothing that says anything about posting as long as I am respectful.

fedupwithcrap (anonymous) says...
Lets go back as far as 2007, as people have claimed on here, that Ludt edits his videos. And see as this video was clearly not edited, and he got the eyewitnesses right then and there that Pat Bundy, Captain, came to Ludts house cussing at him!! The minutes and seconds are clearly on this tape!!

You watch this video, Captain Bundy sent pictures of Jamie Ludt and his underage son to his house, does this now make him a pedophile for taking pictures of underage children? (Charlie Sheen syndrome winning)

Public ask Vindy why this has happened, why the Tailing officers story was stopped, and why freedom of speech is being interfered with.

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73fedupwithcrap(317 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

@ytown
You are the one following me around, and no I am no ludt, the name is Charlie!! I live outside of struthers and I am pretty well knows as well. Even was on the radio with the former mayor mckelvey, just check april 8, 2011 archives. So why do you keep calling names and insulting me and others, who happen to only want to speak the truth?

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74ismellmyhand(26 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

too funny. The middle class giving succor and support to the aristocracy of public employee unions. And you wonder why life is a struggle and you are broke? Anyone who thinks SB5 should be repealed and who doesn't work for a union.... deserves to struggle with the basics. Get some brains people.

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75walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Tellingthetruth,
I'm not saying you are stupid, but I think you may have trouble reading.

Post#80:"I don't hear to many teachers crying about the hours they work."

Your Post #59:"NO! Do I get overtime, NO! I don't get paid for all the hours I spend on school-related work before and after school. I spend hours each weekend grading papers and preparing for the coming week. I receive no "extra-time." "

Sounds like crying to me! You are the one that complained about paying a doctor $100 for a 10 min. office visit. I tried to explain why the charge is so high. But, if you accumulated a quarter of a million dollars in college debt studying to be a teacher, I definitely wouldn't want you teaching one of my children. You have over-valued your education.

But, I would estimate that a typical teacher does classroom instruction and lecturing for about 4 hours a day at the high school and junior high level. And, at most, this schedule is maintained for 180 days a year. Ignoring weekends, that leaves 80 weekdays per year for non-instruction. Allowing 15 in-service days leaves 65 days per year in which you have time-off. That is 13 weeks, by my math! That's as much as the steelworkers used to get every 7 years under their contract!

If you re-read my post #74, I have no problem with good teachers, respect them, and know that they deserve to make a good SALARY. One of my college professors is directly responsible for my career in engineering and I am forever grateful. I have informed my son of my opinions of the teaching profession, as it were, and we have discussed the problems he will face, such as teachers with tenure that should be never have gotten a teaching certificate. You know the old adage, those that that can, do, those that can't, teach.

Now, please! Go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

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76Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Sorry, Walter but I'm not going to go away. What a wonderful line... "those you can't, teach! By the way I'm not sure where you are getting all your information about inservice days, instructional time, etc..... but you are wrong... Not every school district operates the same way. I don't know any school district in my area that gets 15 inservice days. So once again the information that you are stating is incorrect. Check your facts before posting. A typical teacher does not lecture for 4hours. Bottom line you can feel the way you want about teachers and that is fine. As I have stated before there are both effective and ineffective teachers out there. However, don't assume you know what is going on in a classroom because you don't.

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77walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

tellingthetruth,
Then I am wrong in the terminology of what an "in-service" day is. I realize teachers must also put in time at the school when classes are not in session to prepare the classrooms at the start of the year and to file grades at the end. Those are the days when some teachers bring in the food and coolers of beverages. So, correct my calculations. If you instruct for 180 weekdays a year, this leaves 80 weekdays you don't. Allowing a full 3 weeks of time to do the administrative duties, it leaves 65 weekdays you are not in school. Maybe a teacher does not lecture for only 4 hours, but it is not much more. Maybe you have lunchroom duty or study hall monitoring. I also understand that teachers in the public schools must educate every student that is put in their classroom. However, the old teaching models are not working in some of the systems and need to be changed. But, typically, it is the NEA that will resist these changes because, as a union, their concern is the etacher, not the student. That can't be denied. But, I am off of my point. I is doubtful that teachers will suffer if they are made to pay a little more for their healthcare and pension. SB5 still allows for bargaining on pay rates that could make up the difference. Being a teacher definitely has its advantages.

And, the adage I previously used was quite apt whne I was in school. The students that couldn't handle the tougher curricula in college went into education, especially if they wanted to earn a PhD. Deny the fact that every school system some over-paid PhD's that do little but cash a fat paycheck and head up some worthless federal title program.

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782muchtax(321 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

No new taxes for any reason until someone please explain why the public sector gets to retire after 30yrs and 20yrs in the case of the Ohio State Patrol with pensions 4-5 times better than a private sector employee working for 40 to 50yrs. This is starting to come out because of the bravery of the vindicator and www.buckeyeinstitute.com Before this it was all a secret between the Democrats and the unions. It just is not fair to the majority of taxpayers that have to work much longer to support this greed. Wellington and Marsico should be the first ot go!!

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79mjnovaksr(95 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

If everyone would open their eyes and take a very good look at what unions have done and continue to do here in the Mahoning Valley and especially in Youngstown they would double down on SB5 and support further changes to get we 80% who are non-union workers and retirees back in control of Ohio's budget and spending! Our country and all of our states are broke, have little hope of improvement soon, and we, the people, can no longer afford politicians and unions in bed with each other! Just check out the size of donations made by all unions this past election and you will quickly understand why it is important to shrink the size of government everywhere and reduce the influence of ALL lobbies including the unions. God help this country, this state and this community if we don't!

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80Tellingthetruth(11 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

Walter, all I can say is your views of what is going on in a typical classroom is far from correct.. I would suggest you take some time and visit some of your local schools before you assume anything else. Also, I am not worried about paying more for my insurance or not getting a pay raise if SB5 passes. Yes, some teachers do get a step increase but not every year or everyone.For several years now I have continued to pay more for my insurance and receive no pay raise. I'm fine with that.
BTW.... Lunch duty or study hall monitoring is not considered instructional time. Maybe you should look up the words "instructional time." Not all of today's teachers sit at their desks or stand in front of their classes and just lecture. Today its called "differentiated instruction" (allowing your students to acquire knowledge in different ways). So I surely hope you will take your "tax paying self" to your local school district and spend some much needed time volunteering your services. Once you have done that by all means report what you saw going on. Don't just assume you know because you don't.

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81walter_sobchak(1909 comments)posted 3 years, 4 months ago

tellingthetruth,
Yeah, we had "differentiated instruction" in my day, too. It was called watching a movie and it still exists today with some teachers. Remember your earlier posts how you belly-ached about how much time teachers have to spend outside the classroom, preparing and grading papers, and not receiving extra-time, i.e. money. I also don't need to volunteer any more to the school district as I "volunteer" enough of my income to fund these schools. BTW, I do volunteer my time to school and youth organizations but I also work about 50 hours per week on salary. I will stand by my point that teachers work about 4 hours per day instructing. It may be slightly higher, but no more than 20 - 25 hours per week. AND, no weekends, all public holidays off, and generous vacation time. The best part for the underperforming teachers: they get their tenure, pay increases, etc. regardless of the quality of work they put out. This you can't deny and, if you are a good teacher, should outrage you. This is what the teacher' s unions have brought on society. Like any union, they protect the incompetent.

The way schools operate in this country is outdated and seriously flawed. The way they are funded in Ohio is unconstitutional. I like the way Canfield teachers took a 1% cut to attempt to get the new levy passed. But, it appears that, instead of taking a 3% increase, they only took a 2% increase. Well, that little stunt gets 3 definite "no" votes in my household.

BTW, SB5 has already passed and been signed into law by our Gov. Kasich. The referendum effort is to repeal the law, if the unions can coerce people to sign their petitions. Maybe you need to sit on a government class in your high school, if you can find one not being taught by a coach.

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