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Block watch comes through



Published: Sat, November 27, 2010 @ 12:01 a.m.

South Sider thwarts robbery, helps cops

By John W. Goodwin Jr.

jgoodwin@vindy.com

YOUNGSTOWN

A South Side block-watch member who helped police find and arrest several teens after an attempted armed robbery said it was just “the right thing to do” — and that more people should follow his lead.

A member of the block watch along Loveland Avenue on the city’s upper South Side said he was heading home just after 2 p.m. Thanksgiving Day when he noticed a group of teen boys surrounding a man, woman and child. The man told the block-watch member the teens had tried to rob him.

The block-watch member, who asked that The Vindicator not publish his name, began chasing the group of teens. Eventually, he tracked the group to a house in the 2300 block of Mount Vernon. Police ultimately arrested three teens — ranging in age from 13 to 15 — and charged the boys with attempted armed robbery and complicity to aggravated armed robbery.

The boys are being held in the Martin P. Joyce Juvenile Justice Center.

The block-watch member, who lives near Mount Vernon, said he is tired of the illegal activities of a few having an effect on the entire neighborhood.

“This was the right thing to do, flat out the right thing to do. I am tired of my neighborhood being victimized by a minority of the population. There is less than 2 percent of the population terrorizing the remaining 98 percent,” he said.

The 29-year-old male victim and his 30-year-old fiancee told police they were walking home from a corner store when the group of seven to nine male teens surrounded them. One of the teens, they said, pulled out a gun and demanded money. Two of the boys encouraged the boy holding the gun to “pop him” and take his money and cigarettes.

The man refused to hand over any money, and the group of teens walked away after the block-watch member started to approach. The block-watch member said the teens did not seem overly concerned even after it had become obvious that others witnessed the attempted robbery.

“The kids were just brazen about it, just walking away like nothing happened,” he said.

The teens eventually did run away, but the victim and block-watch member followed them to the Mount Vernon home where they were arrested and identified by the victims. Police did not find the gun.

The block-watch member said the area needs a more proactive police presence to prevent these things from happening and more citizens willing to come forward and take action when they see crime in the community.

Police also are investigating two robberies reported the day before Thanksgiving.

A 19-year-old Struthers man was walking from a friend’s house near Mount Vernon just before 7:30 p.m. Wednesday when three teens appearing to about 15 years old approached and demanded his money. The teens took the man’s cell phone, wallet and tried to remove his shoes before telling the man to walk away.

The man told police he started to walk away and then heard a gunshot. The man told police he ran to a nearby house and called police.

Police reports also say two women entered a Family Dollar store in the 2700 block of Glenwood Avenue just after 3:30 p.m. and tried to steal cosmetics. The women, reports said, hit a manager with their car when he noticed their actions and tried to stop them by standing behind the car.

The manager was not injured. Police did not find the women.


Comments

1aliciawilkes27(2 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

This is terrible! We need more people's Help solving the crimes by studying criminal justice search online for "United Forensic College"

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2Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

aliciawilkes27

Keep your spam to sites that care. Don't you get tired of being a nuisance?

"“The kids were just brazen about it, just walking away like nothing happened,” he said."

Young animals, pure and simple. Of course, they do no wrong, there such great kids and such. These animals need to be caged up for awhile. 13 to 15 — and charged with attempted armed robbery and complicity to aggravated armed robbery and having a GUN. Yep, freakin 13 to 15 year old animals.

"....three teens appearing to about 15 years old approached and demanded his money. The man told police he started to walk away and then heard a gunshot."

The pitiful youth of America showing it's worth to society. Nothing! Cage them up for being the animals they are for there nothing but useless future wanna be gangstas with no FUTURE for mankind. What pitiful creatures.

Teens with guns, that is scary.

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3madman(50 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The brownlee woods bw will be looking for them up here to.Theres alot of crime going on and it needs to be stoped now .im part of a blockwatch im not go to put up with it .The so called gangstas need to be put in cages .we got to do something now put a stop to crime in your blockwatch now

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4VINDYAK(1799 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Block watches are nice on paper, until those punks discover who is on the block watch...then they vandalize the block watchers' property and harass the property owners. The only thing these punks respect is an armed and dangerous property owner. Get yourself an ugly Mossberg 500 shotgun. Learn how to use it and don't be afraid to display it. Then get yourself a concealed carry license and learn to shoot a handgun. If you think this is extreme, ask the victims how scared they where by these punks, who show no respect or fear and taunt citizens with slurs and gunfire. The police will not be there for you...they only come and do the paperwork afterwords. If you don't like the way these punk, pimple-faced, stupid and uneducated teens have taken over your neighborhood, then do something about it. You have more ability and smarts than they do...start using it.

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5Stan(9923 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

The solution for these out of control kids is to jail momma and put them in JJC . Once taxpayer funding for the nest that these hoodrats live in has been cut the cycle of violence is broken . Crime exists because we allow it .

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6oldmill(16 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

After these dopes are caught what really needs to be done is HARSH punishment ! No more of this bleeding heart probation crap. or minimum sentences. The day is here when some of us will resort to vigilanti justice . Some people need to disapear from this planet !

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7Traveler(606 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

13 & 15 year olds that are doing armed robber cant be save. The system that raised them has corrupted them too much where they cant be reformed to be productive members of society . All those kids are the future drug dealers and thugs of Youngstown.

The block-watch member said the area needs a more proactive police presence to prevent these things from happening

Only type of proactive police present is the old time sheriffs where they handout bounty's for criminals dead or alive.

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8LadyJan(12 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I live in the Brownlee Woods area. It was a great neighborhood back in the day, that was before they started to put all the Section 8's in. Those people don't give a rat's a$$ about the house, neighborhood or anything else because they've got nothing invested in it. When they cause trouble the housing authority just moves them to a different neighborhood to destroy. I think they should also go after the "Sperm Donor" and take money from his public assistance to give to the baby's mama and not MINE!!

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9LadyJan(12 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work .. and give to those who are not" - Thomas Jefferson

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10southsidedave(4777 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

A bunch of teenage scum, at least we can score one for the good guys catching this scum. No one is safe from these young thugs. Where are the parents?

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11lovedrama(138 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Everyone would be surprised how many chances these rotton punks get. If the info were privy, JJC would have a lot of explaining to do. ODYS ( youth prison) pays the counties a certain amopunt of $$$ every fiscal year, and if they DON'T place kids in DYS then the county keeps the money. JJC has little money to house or send these kids to residential treatment centers-which actually house them 'til they're 21 and send them back to jail if they don't try to change. Sometimes JJC sends them over to CSB-who has little funds to pay for these punks. They end up " on probation" , with numerous violations ( and countless victims), before they put them away. I've heard JJC now operates an " outpatient" sex offender program. What good is that?

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12jrolley325(787 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

whats really scary is that they will be out in no less than 30 days ready to strike again.

give it a few years, and we'll read about them killing somebody.

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13abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

These comments display no intelligence at all. I haven't been on here in a while, but I see the same old daily posters are still eagerly waiting to blame welfare for everything that goes wrong...wow, some things never change.

How do we know that these kids are coming from homes that have "welfare mothers", how do we know the fathers are absentee fathers? What if they're dead, or fighting the corporate war in Iraq or Afghanistan? How do we know? We don't.

Blaming welfare isn't wise. I am a man who grew up as a "welfare kid". I got into trouble here and there, but grew up to go to college and start a career as an IT Specialist/Web Developer, that didn't have anything to do with welfare, but the point is to make you racists see that welfare is not the problem, and secondly you have absolutely NO way of knowing if these kids' parents are on welfare.

YOU are the scum.

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14abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

what opportunities are we giving these kids though? There's SOME things to do, because my kids participate in sports, and the various arts programs, so there definitely IS a parenting problem I must say...I witness it as well. But what opportunities are there for the kids? Wick Park doesn't even have a playground. Bortz pool won't open because they don't want the Black kids from South and North sides to come, so all sides of town cram into one pool which harass the kids with all kinds of pointless rules (which have nothing to do with behavior)..what part-time jobs are there for the kids? Internet cafes?

I will STRONGLY agree that a lot of these parents are subpar and extremely lack-luster, but to just assume something is a very judgemental and unintelligent thing to do...

and the mayor williams police gestapo is not the answer because the only weapon they have is to indiscriminately pull people over and illegally search their cars which usually only result in backed up municipal court docket and fines that financially strapped people can't afford to pay, resulting in warrants and crowded county jail with people who really don't deserve to be there..so maybe when we get a few hundred thousand dollars grant, mayor williams shouldnt waste it on microphones in bushes or more gestapo, but actually invest in our youth and maybe redirect their energy? It takes a village to raise a child...maybe yall would rather shake a fist and blame welfare though?

you better be glad for welfare and other social programs because not sure if you notice the lack of decent (or many at all) jobs in YGT, and if basic needs weren't met in this area, there would be so many more robberies and shootings, and not by "welfare" or "daddy-less" kids.

get educated!

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15Stan(9923 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech :

These fine upstanding young folk roam and rob bringing the loot home to momma . Daddy aint around and can't be found . In the meantime us scum pay taxes to keep them housed and fed .

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16lovedrama(138 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

BFD you got a degree from ITT-that's where all the welfare kids go, and us taxpayers probably paid for it. I didn't say anything in my previous post about welfare or race, so back off. You said nothing meaningful, at least I'm trying to open the public's eyes, help them understand and thus be more careful. Just to let you know, I was on welfare for a very short time in the early nineties and my mentality was extremely entitled and negative. After two trips to the welfare office I looked around and got the hell out, took a look at myself and decided to change; went to a real university, got a bachelor's, went on to get a master's, and am now eagerly awaiting retirement-since I just paid off my damn loans. I could've stayed on welfare and got a free ride-but that's pathetic. These stupid street punks could get one too-but they'de rather go to prison and screw each other, come out and beat their wife and kids. I have no use for any of them.

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17Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech

"These comments display no intelligence at all."

Here we go, these kids do nothing wrong. It's societies fault that they have guns and rob INNOCENT people.

"but I see the same old daily posters are still eagerly waiting to blame welfare for everything that goes wrong...wow, some things never change."

Where are the posts blaming welfare on here? I see one, who LIVES in the area, that would have FIRST HAND knowledge of the situation.

"How do we know that these kids are coming from homes that have "welfare mothers", how do we know the fathers are absentee fathers? What if they're dead, or fighting the corporate war in Iraq or Afghanistan? How do we know? We don't."

You can't be serious? You said you were on welfare but went to college, did you ever carry around a gun, rob people etc? You made something of yourself, you think these kids will? I would venture 99.9999% no! You don't rob INNOCENT people with guns at 13-15 years old. If they had parents to teach them, do you think they would know what they are doing, is not only wrong, but jeopardizing INNOCENT hard working people. Real fair, huh?

"........but the point is to make you racists see that welfare is not the problem, and secondly you have absolutely NO way of knowing if these kids' parents are on welfare."

Racists? Why is it racist? Explain that please? Why is EVERYTHING racist. Maybe in the mirror you are the racist? Get real.
Once again, where are the parents in this? How come we never hear of the parents. Maybe because they don't care? I would say it's the same ones over and over that have no business in society. Hide behind a gun, and at a YOUNG age. Pitiful.

"YOU are the scum."

Why? Because we work hard our lives and to have your life threatened by YOUNG pitiful little chickensh@3t animals just to take it away from us? And were the scum? You really need mental help.

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18Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

"what opportunities are we giving these kids though?"

What opportunities?? There are alot more young kids that are PRODUCTIVE in society then the pitiful animals. How come they are PRODUCTIVE and have no issues with the law at 13-15 years old. What makes them different then the low life's? Because they make use of there lives instead of being a pitiful creature. That why! Theres opportunities but you have to WANT to make something out of your LIFE, not get handed it.

"Wick Park doesn't even have a playground. Bortz pool won't open because they don't want the Black kids from South and North sides to come, so all sides of town cram into one pool which harass the kids with all kinds of pointless rules (which have nothing to do with behavior)..what part-time jobs are there for the kids? "

All EXCUSES. Quit making excuses for these idiots, because thats why they keep doing this! Because of people like YOU! Always have a excuse for everything they do.

It's takes a imitative to WANT to better your life, it don't just get handed to you!

"what part-time jobs are there for the kids? Internet cafes? "

http://www.snagajob.com/jobs?t=teen&s...

http://www.groovejob.com/browse/jobs/...

http://www.teenjobsection.com/Ohio/yo...

"and the mayor williams police gestapo is not the answer because the only weapon they have is to indiscriminately pull people over and illegally search their cars which usually only result in backed up municipal court docket and fines that financially strapped people can't afford to pay, resulting in warrants and crowded county jail with people who really don't deserve to be there..so maybe when we get a few hundred thousand dollars grant, mayor williams shouldnt waste it on microphones in bushes or more gestapo, but actually invest in our youth and maybe redirect their energy? It takes a village to raise a child...maybe yall would rather shake a fist and blame welfare though?"

Bottom line, don't get in trouble and you wouldn't have to worry about it.

"you better be glad for welfare and other social programs because not sure if you notice the lack of decent (or many at all) jobs in YGT, and if basic needs weren't met in this area, there would be so many more robberies and shootings, and not by "welfare" or "daddy-less" kids.

get educated!"

I think you need to get educated and QUIT making EXCUSES!

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19VINDYAK(1799 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Two of the most dangerous weapons ever invented in America were welfare and section 8. Now, don't get me wrong, as I think the idea once started out as well serving...until entire neighborhoods began enrolling for the programs and people began to become lazy. There was no reason for self improvement and the free money every month encouraged drug use. Now we have cities like Cleveland with at least 40,000 or more recipients sucking tax dollars away from those of us still lucky to be working. And this is happening all across America, until suddenly we realize the welfare of our entire population is spiraling downward, fueled by free money, drugs and uneducated, unhireable scum who have no business being on this planet as they serve no purpose for humanity. My only pleasant thought about this is the knowledge that God will not save their souls and they will burn in hell forever. At least that's what I hope and pray happens to them. Until then, I will do my part and do all I can to protect my family, encourage my friends and neighbors to do the same and do all I can to help them. There is strength in numbers, especially when those numbers are strong and overwhelming.

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20abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

nah, my degrees (yes PLURAL) are from Youngstown State..

1 - Psychology/Philosophy (yeah, a DOUBLE major) WITH a minor in Religious Studies

2- Computer Information Systems

like I said, 1.- you assume, and 2 -you don't comb the information

instead you just RUSH to disagree and make a post out of your pitiful emotionally driven fervor.

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21abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

also, you may notice that I made no excuse for any of this, and barely referenced them...I simply criticized the fact that we have NO idea who these kids are, and who their parents are, and yet you just assume that they are kids of people who are on welfare, and that the father isn't present.

that demonstrates YOUR ignorance..it really does. and it furthermore solves nothing.

And you PRAY to your god that they burn in hell? I'm wondering if you're Christian and if so that is totally against the doctrine. 1. - you're passing judgement ("judge not lest ye may be judged")..and 2. - shouldnt you be praying for their SALVATION and change of lifestyle and choices?

your ignorance and hypocrisy is unbelievable.

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22Traveler(606 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

@VINDYAK
There was no reason for self improvement.

I think you hit whats worng with section 8/ welfare. What is the use getting even a ged when the government all pays the same.

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23abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

not everyone on welfare is just some lazy scum who is living off of the system...some (many in fact) use it if they need it as a stepping stone to not starve and die for lack of medical attention otherwise, until they are able to get on their feet and be self-sufficient...

and many use a section 8 voucher to take their kids out of the environment that is really tough and into one that is relatively safer so that they can concentrate on raising their kids without having to hit the floor from guns blazing, or worrying about them becoming a product of their environment.

Like I said, my mother was on welfare and still worked odd jobs (it just wasn't enough) yet and still she raised me and my siblings to go to school, and even learn outside of school and learn to think for ourselves, not in some programmed way that society batters into your head via lies school teaches, and the garbage that fills the TV...so you can't blame welfare for anything like that..

Does not folly and nonsense happen in Boardman and Canfield, Austintown, etc?

In college the biggest coke sniffers, exctacy poppers and heroine users were White suburban kids...

you don't even realize what the biggest cause of your "tax dollars" being sucked up is..if I were to assume you only "learn" from what CNN, or FOX news, or this Vindy (or some other corporate media outlet) tells your to believe, I'd be wrong wouldn't I? or would I be right?

By us blaming and condemning everyone who's basically in the same social class, and being further divided, our attention is off of the real issues and facts we need to address and become privy to on a world scale...

this president (and past presidential administrations) continues to give away billions (trillions maybe?) to international bankers, so where do you think that money is coming from? our taxes...(and I'm crudely stating this issue)

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24Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech

"....also, you may notice that I made no excuse for any of this, and barely referenced them...I simply criticized the fact that we have NO idea who these kids are, and who their parents are, and yet you just assume that they are kids of people who are on welfare, and that the father isn't present.
that demonstrates YOUR ignorance..it really does. and it furthermore solves nothing."

Excuse
"Wick Park doesn't even have a playground."

So that's okay for kids to carry guns and rob innocent people?

Excuse
"Bortz pool won't open because they don't want the Black kids from South and North sides to come, so all sides of town cram into one pool which harass the kids with all kinds of pointless rules (which have nothing to do with behavior)"

And that is a fact why they don't open Bortz pool? And in your opinion, why don't they want the black kids from the South and North sides to go there? What are the pointless rules? Rules are rules, if you can't obey rules when your young how do you expect to follow rules as you get older?
So because of that it's okay for kids to carry guns and rob innocent people?

Excuse
"not in some programmed way that society batters into your head via lies school teaches, and the garbage that fills the TV...so you can't blame welfare for anything like that.."

So school lies on there teaching, you went to school didn't you? TV and Radio are a excuse also, interesting.
Anyway, so that makes it okay for kids to carry guns and rob innocent people?

Excuse
"In college the biggest coke sniffers, exctacy poppers and heroine users were White suburban kids..."

So that makes it okay for kids to carry guns and rob innocent people?

Excuse
"this president (and past presidential administrations) continues to give away billions (trillions maybe?) to international bankers, so where do you think that money is coming from? our taxes...(and I'm crudely stating this issue)"

Now it's the president and past presidents fault because they give trillions of dollars to international bankers.
So that makes it okay for kids to carry guns and rob innocent people?

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25Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech

"not everyone on welfare is just some lazy scum who is living off of the system."

No one said that.

"Does not folly and nonsense happen in Boardman and Canfield, Austintown, etc? "

Happens everywhere in the world.

"By us blaming and condemning everyone who's basically in the same social class, and being further divided, our attention is off of the real issues and facts we need to address and become privy to on a world scale..."

Blaming the same social class and such? Further divided? The real issues from the above mentioned article is about young wanna be gangstas, who think there holier than thou, that have no discipline in there lives and not only have guns at that age, but threaten innocent people and your okay with that.

I have no clue what your trying to say in your posts.

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26abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

those things you quoted weren't excuses, Life...I was pointing out the conditions which are more than likely to create the problems that we're facing with these kids.

and the president reference is a deeper look at the real cause of our tax dollars going up and up...compare welfare spending with military spending, or those bank bailouts. welfare account for not even 10% of our govt spending, but look at the military, and the bank bailouts..if you wanna get mad about hand-outs.

and yes, lies are told in school, may not have much to do with the problem of this story we're posting on, but yes the history and contexts of what's taught are twisted (quick example: taught that civil war was fought to free slaves when it in fact was not, just ONE example)..

and I'm not commenting on the article as much as the comments and blind assumptions made here to the people in it..and the attitudes and ignorance that the comments exemplify.

I'm not ok with what those kids did, but I feel there's a better way to clean up our society and it's ills than to just make judgments and blind assumptions about immaterial things, and EVERY TIME theres a story about crime, the comments are abundantly about welfare and section 8, I bet if you look at these posts and if you had a dollar for every time one alludes to welfare when it is about a shooting or crime, you could possibly get someone off of welfare with the money you'd accumulate..

we don't ever seem to see what the real sources of our troubles are, and really, if you're a thinking person, even with a small semblance of critical thought, you could read the comments up there and see the ignorance and outright stupidity of blaming, and furthermore assuming that these kids are on welfare or section 8 or no dad. after all we dont even know their names, for all we know they could be some kids that strolled up from Boardman to do these crimes..FOR ALL WE KNOW.

my main beef and reason for comment is to point that out, no defense for what they did...if you can't deduce that from what I wrote then you're not possessing good comprehension skills.

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27ricnsherri(41 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Where were the parents when their kids were ganging up on a mother and her child? Someone should hold all their parents accountable. Charge them as well as the kids.

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28Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech

"and I'm not commenting on the article as much as the comments and blind assumptions made here to the people in it..and the attitudes and ignorance that the comments exemplify.

I'm not ok with what those kids did, but I feel there's a better way to clean up our society and it's ills than to just make judgments and blind assumptions about immaterial things, and EVERY TIME theres a story about crime, the comments are abundantly about welfare and section 8, I bet if you look at these posts and if you had a dollar for every time one alludes to welfare when it is about a shooting or crime, you could possibly get someone off of welfare with the money you'd accumulate.."

Then can you explain why with all the murders, robberies, kids with guns, drugs, drug trafficking, etc all happen, not just here, but all over the United States, the majority, I would venture to say, 90%, happen in low income areas, welfare areas, section 8 areas, the projects? Is it maybe because the majority are one parent households or parents that don't care what there children are doing?
Perfect example is the kid on the school bus recently, how come his dad never spoke up? Just his mom and sister and they thought he wasn't in the wrong. And this happens everyday, everywhere.

"and yes, lies are told in school, may not have much to do with the problem of this story we're posting on, but yes the history and contexts of what's taught are twisted (quick example: taught that civil war was fought to free slaves when it in fact was not, just ONE example)."

Not going to get into it deep, but lies? Come on, people were taught, in your example, The Civil War, what with was available in research back then. It's not lies, with today's technology everyday something new comes up, from the past to the solar system to the dinosaurs, to you name it. So if you think the school/text books/teachers all lied about teaching what was available, then you really need to get with reality.

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29Stan(9923 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

No matter what the taxpayers spend keeping the criminals in housing and food it will never be enough . They continue to steal and support their recreational drug and alcohol habits . The SouthSide of Youngstown is a prime example . Their arrest records tell it all .

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30Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Another example, just TODAY...

Shooting on Youngstown's South Side Injures One

http://www.wkbn.com/content/news/loca...

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31VINDYAK(1799 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Abtech is doing his best to defend his position and the system, which is admirable, because he was one of the lucky ones who lived in a household that tried and won. Despite graduating from Hiram College, I have lived and worked the streets and trenches of the weak and poor and have many images burned into my memory banks of not only the suffering, but also the agony and pain of watching children grow up in the welfare environment. They all come into this life as angels, but by the time they reach 13 their future is bleak. So, what failed them...was it the sytem...was it the parent...or was it the environment. If you really study this, you will agree it was the system, because the system enabled the other parts to fester and grow.

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32Traveler(606 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Welfare is a great idea that has failed the system needs to be reformed. As a christen nation we should have a system to take care of our mental and physical disabled. But for everyone that is on it that shouldn't be is one less dollar to help the ones that deserve our kindness. We need to look at those that are on it. Then decide if they need help for life due to serious mental or physical disabilities. If they don't have anything serious wrong with them. We should implement a plan to get them off government aid and back in to the work force. If they fail to obey the plan they should be punished by having there benefits cut. To finely ether they get with the program or there benefits are cut to where they get nothing.

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33abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm not defending the system of welfare, I'm just saying that every time a crime is committed, that welfare and such is NOT to blame..when the real truth - and I don't know how I'm going to hammer this point home - is that we do not know what the socio-economic status of these people are when we read about them...there's just no way at all, unless you know them personally...and to act as if you do it only demonstrates that you have no real critical thinking skills, and that you don't look at things intelligently...and your opinion or input is not to be valued when addressing anything.

If you have a problem with welfare or any public assistance then address it intelligently and not making everything an opportunity to attack welfare (which I would ask how many of u IF you even went to college received a Federal Pell Grant? - a form of public assistance)

Also, lol, this may come as a real shock to some, but NOT EVERYONE IN YOUNGSTOWN, WARREN, or INNER-CITY CRIME RIDDEN NEIGHBORHOODS IS ON WELFARE.

and that reference with the link to the shooting this mornging or whenever, proves nothing about welfare, only about an issue of violence.

Now if you really are inclined to any kind of economic and sociology studies, you'd know that the basic cause of crime is poverty, so if there was no welfare system in place to at least provide some basic needs to those who are (whether through laziness, or just through no real fault of their own) befallen to economic hardships, then the crime rate would be substantially higher, and not because of some lack of home training or what have you...but out of necessity.

If there was a nuclear war or some other apocalyptic event where infrastructure (society as we know it) was toppled, and there was no way to work for your "daily bread" then we'd have bands of people running around pillaging and plundering in Mad Max fashion...it would be an animalistic society so to speak. Would that be because people are immoral, or because they're needing to survive?

That's NOT the society we live in, but it would be an inch, a foot, or a yard closer IF it weren't for programs such as welfare and section 8, etc...

A few of my relatives live in a suburban city, and my young cousins are constantly in trouble or participants in undesirable behavior (to put it lightly), their mother makes a substantial income and receives no welfare and pays a mortgage..so is welfare to blame there?

What I CAN agree with is the questioning of their parenting...and it goes even past the parenting unto the entertainment and what we value as a society: MTV, BET, all these reality shows that teach and glamorize strife, contention, and selfishness ("today on Said Reality Show XYZ, tempers flaaaaare as...blah blah blah")..don't get me started on the Rap music, and other popular music...

So we DO have to look at and question the parenting and also the messages that our youth get from the entertainment industry...but not blame welfare.

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34abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

and Stan, I challenge you to show me an arrest record that demonstrates that the southside is a "prime example" that tax payer dollars help them to " continue to steal and support their recreational drug and alcohol habits"..really I don't even know how to frame my challenge because your statement has no real line of logically-based reasoning...the only thing an arrest record can show is what a person is CHARGED WITH (noticed I didn't say what they're guilty of, but CHARGED WITH..that's the only thing an arrest record can show, nothing more)

btw, what a sampling of the Mahoning County Jail inmate count can show is that the Mahoning County Jail is also filled with plenty of inmates from Austintown, Poland, Canfield, Boardman, COitsville, and more..

What you say is similar to what the people say about all Muslims being terrorists, therefore all Arabs are terrorists. When in fact all Arabs aren't even Muslims, so logically (based on that erroneous type of stereotyping) all Arabs can't be terrorists.

Are you familiar with a Venn Diagram tool of logic? It would behoove you to learn to use it, as your reasoning would highly benefit from it...

yours truly,
-a former "welfare" kid

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35Lifes2Short(3875 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Welfare Payments and Crime
A study of crime and welfare payment cycles

http://www.people.hbs.edu/ffoley/Crim...

"As welfare contributes to the rise in out-of-wedlock births and single-parent families, it concomitantly contributes to the associated increase in criminal activity."

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-wc67...

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node...

WELFARE AND THE CULTURE OF POVERTY
Social Pathologies
Welfare Dependency, Poverty, Out-of-Wedlock Births, Nonemployment, Abortion, Violent Crime.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj16...

"The core dilemma of the welfare state is that the prolific spending intended to alleviate material poverty has led to a dramatic increase in behavioral poverty. In welfare, as in other government policies, you get what you pay for. The current welfare system heavily subsidizes illegitimacy, divorce, and non-work. The past 25 years have seen dramatic increases in all three behaviors. The War on Poverty may have raised the material standard of living of a few Americans, but at the cost of creating whole communities where traditional two-parent families have vanished, work is rare or non-existent, and multiple generations have grown up dependent on government transfers. The disintegration of the family encouraged by the current welfare system has in turn led to other severe social problems, in particular, a dramatic increase in crime.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Repo...

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36Stan(9923 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

abtech :

"and Stan, I challenge you to show me an arrest record that demonstrates that the southside is a "prime example" that tax payer dollars help them to " continue to steal and support their recreational drug and alcohol habits".."

A couple of us on this forum have posted the arrest records of the SouthSide Hoodrats when they were tagged for recent crimes . The research that I have done in the past shows that most come from a welfare household . SSI for drug and alcohol addiction is another favorite subsidy . Your covering for them is admirable ! :)

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37Traveler(606 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

@ abtech
Want to learn about welfare do a ride along with the cops for a couple of nights and ask them. I did it once when i was younger it really changes how you look and feel about things.

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38joe1210(2 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

hello bad kids and bad parents come from all income groups i am on SSDI. im not lazy i have SCLERODERMA i was a firemen and a truck driver for many years i am part of the 7th.ward block watch i been patrolling for almost 2yrs.i dont just ride around i stop and talk to evryone so thay know what i am doing i think i am the only one that does this so if any one whould like to help out just come to a meeting and let us know we are having a meeting today at grace of god church on mt.vernon if any of you are ready to do something to help take back or city so who is ready to walk the walk with me just doing the talk wont help also leave your front pourch light on it does help see you latter at the meeting i hope JOE.

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39abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

those web sites are opinion based, nothing empirical at all...

you've done no research...

ride with cops?? please, I grew up and LIVE on the Northside of town very near to ST.E's...I have bullet holes in my freaking house, I've had to hit the basement because the floor wasn't enough refuge during the shootings, I lost a 16 year old nephew, cousinS <--- as young as 15 yrs old, and close close friends to the streets...nearly every year one or more is lost, so I speak from the trenches...where do you live?

Not only here, but I travel the United States through my job, and I don't just tuck away in the booshy hotel suites, I get out when my work is done and travel to where the real people are, where you don't see on the travel brochures..

CATO institute? that conservative babbel? I dont subscribe to the democrats either, before you go there, because BOTH parties are controlled by the meglomaniacal plutocrats pitting both liberals and conservatives against eachother to fight over scraps while they get richer and richer...but please, don't come at me with so called "proof" from some one-sided racist "think-tank" such as the CATO institute...

That's like a Christian trying to prove Christianity WITH THE BIBLE, or a Muslim trying to prove Islam WITH THE QU'RAN...

Studies....LMAO.

I don't wanna argue, I want yall to recognize that you're fighting the wrong fight! Just like I run into the Blacks who think it's a total war by the "White man" against the "Black man", it is a pointless and moot debacle that gets nowhere, when in fact the plutocracy, and the world powers are pitting us all against eachother, when in essence we're all in the same "class"...whether you work 100 hours a week just to pay your mortgage and insurance premiums, and car note (i.e. your DEBT), or if you're some lazy bum who ABuses welfare or whatever or sells dope in the streets (which many people sell dope to AVOID welfare, but know that if they work a regular job they won't be able to shake the need of welfare)..we're all in the same class struggle..

We all need eachother, and you're falling right into their plutocratic hands by clawing and casting blame on those sucking up YOUR "tax dollars" when you make no mention of the real people taking your tax dollars, the International banking cartels that actually drive this country into debt, getting repaid by your TAX DOLLARS.

check some works from Bill Moyers, for starters.

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40abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

also, check some real facts (perhaps through the freedom of information act) on what percentage of the national budget is actually spent on welfare...get back to me with those numbers

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41abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

btw, here's the horses mouth:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy1...

so you won't go to some one-sided, conservatively leaning or liberally leaning or whatever the heck biased "data-source"

if you know how to research, you should arrive at the correct conclusion, and see if you still continue with that false notion that "ALL OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS" are going to welfare and to support bums and no good fatherless scum...

also, while you're at it, maybe you can help Stan to produce those arrest records of the southside that prove that the suspects or targets of the crimes that were posted by the members of the forum were on welfare and SSI, or whatever the heck way he put it...

show me the proof.

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42abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

one more thing, I have to correct myself, the CATO institute isn't necessarily a racist organization..so I apologize for me alluding to such, but they are no doubt conservative Liberatarian types, and they do have some skewed data.

I have studied them concerning this "global warming" debate, and somewhat side with them on that issue..SOMEWHAT...

but their "data" on welfare and such is kinda fishy, and is based on nothing empirical..

I've read a lot of reports from Patrick Michaels from CATO institute about climate issues.

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43rival(4 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

Three kids in custody? This isn't a happy ending. There were 7 to 9 to begin with. Where are the other 4 to 6?

Now, I'm going to come off as a proponent of vigilante justice, or some neo-conservative nutcase - I'm not. There is a distinct line between defense (self-defense or defense-of-others) and vigilante justice, and I am firmly on the "defense" side of that line. Keep that in mind when you read this:

The kid who pulled the gun shouldn't have made it back to his house. He committed an act of violence - the threat of lethal force - and he should not have had the chance to end the engagement on his own terms. He should have been stopped, then and there, on the victim's terms, not the perpetrator's. The man, the woman, and the block-watch member should have used sufficient force to stop the attack. That kid should have several bullet holes in his chest, and either be in the hospital or the morgue.

Again: defense - not vigilante justice. As long as there is an immediate threat, you are justified in using force to stop that threat. Once the immediate threat is stopped, there is no further justification to continue to respond with potentially lethal force.

As long as we act like targets; as long as we are OK with others using greater force than we allow ourselves to use, we will remain victims, and our neighborhoods will remain crime-ridden. As long as we rely on others - like police and block-watch members - to protect us, we will remain victims. It is not until we take personal responsibility for ending immediate threats of violence that we stop being victims.

I urge everyone to learn legally and morally acceptable responses to violence; to participate in self-defense training; to become proficient in the safe and LAWFUL use of firearms; to obtain a Concealed Handgun License; to carry a firearm, legally and responsibly; to take responsibility for ensuring their own safety against the threat of criminal violence; and to urge friends, family members, and neighbors to do all of these things.

Police don't stop crime. Police investigate crime. We will NOT have safe neighborhoods until WE choose to make them safe; until WE stop any violent crime that occurs on our watch.

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44abtech(48 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5OtB2...

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45joe1210(2 comments)posted 3 years, 7 months ago

well like i said before getting on the computer and telling what should have went down does not help rival i agree with some of what you say but its easy to get on this and say what should have went down if your not there you need to be there to know what you would do it first off the kids where walking away till seen the block watch and ran before block watch knew what went down for sure we do need help on the block watch i patrol has much as i can but i am only one i need help so if anyone has some extra time it whould be nice to have some help i whould love to have someone ride with me or a bunch of others helping out we have block watch meetings each mounth stop buy you input is what we need just talking on this wont get nothing done i am part of the block watch are you ready to help take or town back i am .

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