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The Delphi Ripple Effect



Published: Tue, September 29, 2009 @ 12:00 a.m.
  Delphi Retirees Hear YSU Study

Delphi salaries retirees hear a YSU study on Delphi pensions.

Delphi salaries retirees hear a YSU study on Delphi pensions.

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STUDY RESULTS: Frank Akpadock, senior research associate at Youngstown State University, predicts job losses will occur in the community because of lower wages and benefits for Delphi Corp. salaried retirees. He spoke Monday at YSU’s Kilcawley Center.

Pension, health-care cuts to cost 4,830 jobs, $161M, retirees say

By DON SHILLING

VINDICATOR BUSINESS EDITOR

YOUNGSTOWN — Officials predict 4,830 jobs will be lost in the Mahoning Valley because of the pension and health-care cuts of Delphi Corp. retirees.

The retirees will have less money to spend at area stores and restaurants, so those businesses will cut back, said Frank Akpadock, senior research associate at the Center for Urban and Regional Studies at Youngstown State University.

Plus, cities will collect less in taxes, so they will not have as much to spend on local services, and social service agencies will receive less in donations, so the needy will receive less help, he said.

“The entire population will be affected,” he said.

Akpadock released a study Monday of the economic impact of cuts in pension and health-care benefits for Delphi salaried workers in the area. The Delphi Salaried Retirees Association requested the study.

Akpadock used an economic model that estimated 30 jobs are lost for every $1 million in economic impact.

He estimated that nearly $58 million will be taken out of the local economy as retirees receive less in pensions and spend more on health care under a new health-care plan forced on them. That would lead to a reduction of about 1,740 jobs in the community, he said.

His study includes direct losses of $26.1 million a year by the retirees from reduced pensions and increased health-care expenses. It also includes $31.6 million in indirect losses, which are hits taken by local businesses as money from the retirees is not circulated in the community.

In addition, the salaried retirees applied Akpadock’s model to estimate the effect of Delphi’s hourly retirees having increased health-care expenses. Akpadock didn’t include the hourly retirees in his study because their pensions are not being changed.

The retirees association estimated that the hourly retirees will spend $103 million a year more on health care. Taking that money away from other local businesses would lead to a reduction of 3,090 jobs in the community, they said.

If both estimates are put together, the economic loss to the community would be $161 million a year, with a job loss of 4,830.

“We are headed for a disaster. The train is coming down the track,” said Bruce Gump, a member of the retirees association.

The retirees are publicizing the study because they want to put political pressure on President Barack Obama’s administration to restore the salaried retirees’ full pensions. GM, which is owned mostly by the federal government, has agreed to pay full pensions to union employees at GM and Delphi.

The Delphi salaried retirees said they have until January to convince federal officials of their case because that is when the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. will begin issuing reduced pensions. The retirees are expecting cuts of between 30 percent and 70 percent, in large part because the PBGC does not pay supplements that Delphi was paying to retirees who were under 62.

Mary Ann Hudzig, another member of the retirees association, said salaried retirees will be in for a shock come January. Not only will pensions be reduced, but retirees also will be asked to pay back overpayments made to them since the PBGC took over Delphi’s pensions in August, she said.

She expects she will have to pay back between $7,500 and $10,000, which can be done in installments.

“I don’t even have that money. It was given to health care,” she said.

Hudzig, 56, of Warren, said she expects her pension to be reduced from $3,000 a month to between $1,000 and $1,500 a month.

The retirees association also is trying to stop the PBGC takeover through a federal lawsuit in Michigan. The suit says that the agency broke federal law by giving up liens against the company without receiving anything in return.

shilling@vindy.com


Comments

1Ytownboy(142 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

This is exactly what happened with the steel industry, except on a smaller scale. The ripple effects of this are indeed a terrible disaster for this valley. Tim Ryan should be on this like flies on sh**it.

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2RFederer(116 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Created by Obama? Now that's funny Robert. Is Obama also to blame for global warming? Ytownboy, how are Ryan and Brown supposed to just wave a magic wand and make this disappear? Are they King and Dictator? How are they supposed to circumvent the constitution and bankruptcy laws?

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3InterestedInAll(13 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

The local political folks have been talking and working on this for months, but they can not fix it alone. All the retirees are asking for is fair treatment, the same as the UAW got. It was the Auto Task Force that established that standard of fairness, then they decided others were not as valuable to the government. Dr. Montgomery, the President's advisor, to the retirees that the government made their decision to not fund the salaried folks at all and the IUE folks based only on their commercial value to GM. It has been a while since the US Government based their treatment of a citizen on their commercial value, and they should not be doing so now. They earned it, all should get it or none should. Fair is fair and this is the government we are talking about, not a business.

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4Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

So who said life was fair? Was it fair that Delphi workers got their jobs because they had connections? Was it fair that they had better wages and benefits than most blue collar workers in the valley? Was it fair that they could retire in their 50's when most people will be lucky to retire at 65? Was it fair that because they had cadillac health care plans it drove the local costs of health care up for everyone? Was it fair that their wages and benefits are at least partially to blame for the bankruptcy?

This professor, who is himself a union member, didn't do a very good job of analysis. He only factored in things that make the workers look like victims and didn't factor in many things that hurt the local economy.

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5DoctorGonzo(728 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Timmy cannot be bothered by such things. He is spending time courting the young Pelosi daughter and signing his soul over to satan.
King Obama must go to Amsterdam to lobby with Oprah for the Olympics to come to Chicago so one of the most corrupt cities on the planet can get richer.
Why should either of these two care about Americans who worked for decades supporting the economy and their country. They just wanted your vote. Call the czar, he can help.

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6InterestedInAll(13 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

It is even less fair that those who had nothing to do with the Delphi issue will have to pay a heavy price. That is what this story is about Shakesspear. Life is not fair, but our government is OUR government and unless we make it live up to its promises and obey the same laws you and I have to, more people will get hurt. Why should so many who are already struggling in a very damaged and fragile economy have to deal with the fall out of the elitist attitude of a government that assigns "commercial value" to people? A war was fought over that and it was settled then, and it should not be a determining factor now. Get with it and care a little about your community, that is what this is about.

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7Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

The government has nothing to do with the Delphi situation. In fact the PBGC, a quasi government entity, is SAVING these workers from an even worse situation. Delphi went bankrupt at least 3 years ago and has been in decline for decades before that. The bankruptcy rules are part of the constitution. The Delphi workers had everything to do with the company's downfall. They aren't innocent.

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8JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

"This professor, who is himself a union member, didn't do a very good job of analysis." How so? The study isn't biased, it details simple cause and effect, the likes of which I described on these pages a year ago when things really started falling apart.

The point is that if you live in the valley you will be affected by this, regardless of your intelligence or blind ignorance. I feel badly for those that can truly comprehend what is going on around them, sadly those people seem to be in the minority.

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9JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

"The Delphi workers had everything to do with the company's downfall. They aren't innocent." Let me ask you, did the employees on the line make the decision not to diversify the company's business before the late 90's when it was too late to effectively do so?

Answer that simple question.

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10Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

*** The Delphi Salaried Retirees Association requested the study.***

That alone raises a red flag. Where did Akpadock come up with the 30 jobs per million number?

The Delphi salaried retirees want to whip everyone into a frenzy hoping that more people contacting their politician might help them.

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11Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Jeff asked....did the employees on the line make the decision not to diversify the company's business before the late 90's when it was too late to effectively do so?

They did so indirectly by demanding salaries and benefits far in excess of what the market could accept thereby limiting the companies options for diversification and reinvestment. Do you really think that what a company pays has no impact on the rest of the business?

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12JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Yours is a flawed premise, madam. No one held executives at gunpoint with regard to compensation or benefits and yes, I'm well aware how total compensation (pay, benefits, wellness considerations, employee engagement, rewards programs, etc.) impacts a business. I'm also aware of how lack of a basic grasp of profit/loss principles impacts a business -- if the company didn't want to abide by terms of labor agreements or their own compensation plans they could have invalidated them (especially in the case of salaried individuals) OR looked for avenues to generate more revenue and boost profit to compensate.

Quite simply put the company (and much of the industry) devolved in an evolving marketplace and the region (and much of the country) will suffer because of it. But by all means go ahead; question the methodology of the study (?) and the part that employees played in what eventually happened.

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13InterestedInAll(13 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

*** The Delphi Salaried Retirees Association requested the study.***

TIM RYAN requested the study, not the DSRA. He needed it to show how much this valley has been hurt by the Administration's unfair treatment of the IUE and Salaried Retirees.

Where did Akpadock come up with the 30 jobs per million number?

He did not "come up" with that number at all, but as he explained at the press conference used an internationally accepted model of economics to show what happens when an economy as fragile as ours takes a hit like this.

The Delphi salaried retirees want to whip everyone into a frenzy hoping that more people contacting their politician might help them.

I think you are correct on this one, and I agree. I am writing every political person I can find a fax number for on the internet, including that tax cheat who is in charge of the treasury and the Auto Task Force Tim Geithner and his boss. We can't take this here, we need help not more piling on by the very government we elected to prevent this kind of catastrophe. Those faxes will go out today. Thanks for the idea!

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14Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Jeff said....No one held executives at gunpoint with regard to compensation or benefits.

Not gunpoint but certainly strike point. It really is very simple capitalism. Capital flows to where it can make the best return. Unions were a benefit to society decades ago. When American manufacturing was basically a monopoly. Now, they tend to demand via strike threat, wages and benefits far beyond what the free market would pay and since there are plenty of places to move the manufacturing processes where labor is cheaper, that's where it goes. Now are you proposing socialism as a better system than what made America great? If so, you should move to Cuba. Everyone there is in the same boat. It's a sinking boat but a boat none the less. Without the investment of the people with money, America is doomed. Companies like Goldman Sachs, Google, Walmart, McDonalds, and others don't get to their status by kowtowing to unions. Ask any Google employee if he/she'd prefer union representation!

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15DoctorGonzo(728 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I am not sure how anybody can say that unions have no place in the work force today. There are certainly issues with them in some instances, but on the whole corporations would be working people 80 hours week for $5/hour if they were able to.
Capitalism, in all its worthiness, is still a synonym for greed on some level.

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16Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Well doc, Google doesn't have to pay their employees in the millions of dollars but they do. (with stock options) Google also provides a work environment that keeps their employees happy. The same is true of many companies. What do the highly paid in society have in common? Education and/or a skill. What do the dying industries have in common? Unions and jobs that anyone can do. I agree, unions have a place. It seems that most of them think their place is to extract as much money from the entity so that it fails. In a global economy and it isn't going to go back to the "good old days", unskilled labor just doesn't have the upper hand like it had 50 years ago. Skilled labor is where the power lies. Skilled labor is going to be rewarded. What the moral of this story? Educate yourself and make yourself marketable. Don't whine and cry that life isn't fair and the government should bail you out.

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17ShaftedbyDelphi(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Shakesspeare, we were salaried workers which is white collar and not blue collar! We didn't get hired by knowing someone, we got hired by knowing something. When I was hired you had to have a 3.5 gpa and an Engineering Degree. We did not bargain for our wages since we were always discouraged from joining a union. Yes we enjoyed good pay and benefits, but that is what the company offered us in return for not joining a union. Salaried did not have a 30 and out, we could only retire with 30 years if the company allowed us to go, which they did the last few years with the promise that they would pay us the pension they owed us. They have now lied and backed out of that deal. We are just trying to show what inpact this pension reduction will have on an already depressed Mahoning and Shenango Valley from the trickle down effect of not having any disposable income to spend on goods and services. We are just trying to get the same level up from GM that has been offered to the UAW and IUE workers.And thank God for our IUE brother and sisters because they are supporting us on this!

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18cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

ShaftedbyDelphi....."And thank God for our IUE brother and sisters because they are supporting us on this!"

I'm sure that the non union white collar workers would do the same for the IUE workers if the shoe were on the other foot, right!

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19redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

cambridge, it might disappoint you to find out that a lot of these blue collar and white collar workers developed friendships over the years and are concerned for their fellow workers! I happen to know members of both sides that attend local car shows together.

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20cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

redvert....Why would that disappoint me?

Since you know members of both sides you would be the perfect person to answer the question.

If the shoe were on the other foot do you think the non union white collar workers would rally to support the IUE workers?

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21redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I was going to add something to my last post but decided to wait for your reply since I just knew that you had been duly prompted. Thanks for the lead in!

Guess what the subject of the conversation three of these individuals (two blue collar, one white collar) had at the last show that I talked to them at. Let me quote what the white collar said as best I can remember. He said "damm it, we all contributed to their success and they owe it to us to live up to their promises" One of his buddies replied to the effect "yes sir, we are in this together, they needed both sides then and they need to man up now" These words as best as I can remember were spoken as they sat around a table with their wives. This took place on a Saturday evening at A&W Root Beer on 224 in Boardman.

cambridge, believe it or not even you could actually have a conservative friend (if he would put up with your sh%t).

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22Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

The white collar employees were simply beneficiaries of the overpayments to the union workers. Whatever the union people got, the white collar people got a little better than that. I can recall many a Packard employee both white and blue collar telling me how good they had it. The gravy train was theirs and mostly through connections. Maybe more so for the union workers but both benefited from the nepotism that occurred there. Retiring in your 50's with full pension and health care when most people could only dream of such largess. The company failed and now the bankruptcy judge and court are going to determine your true value. Sorry, but that's how it works and us taxpayers don't need another leech on our backs.

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23cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

redvert.....I've never made a negative comment against anyone who chooses to work for a non union company. I have called BS on the white collar employees being screwed out of their pensions and health benefits on every occasion.

What I have done that seems to upset a lot of posters on this board is to defend the right of a person to belong to a union if they wish too. I don't believe belonging to a union makes you a thug, a socialist, a Nazi, unpatriotic or anything else they have been portrayed as by many who post here.

It's really not that hard of a question. Yes or no would pretty much cover it. If the shoe were on the other foot do you think the non union white collar workers would rally together and support the IUE union workers? I think we both know the answer but I'd prefer if you were just honest about it and not avoid the question.

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24nekkid(5 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Shakesspheaure is right on the money with all his comments and facts! Mary Ann Hudzig, 56 years old getting $3000.00 a month retirement plus health care..this was the problem! As I said, was the problem. She said she is only going to get $1000.00 to $1500.00 after the first of the year, still too much! She should get about half that and have to wait until SS kicks in. With the outrageous salary she made she will get almost $2000.00 a month SS. The bottom line is she is in the top 5% of all retirees as far as retirement pay goes, now and when she collects SS. The number of retirees from Packard is minute compared to the the retiree poupulation in both Mahoning and Trumbull. They need to be thankful for what they got and what they end up with! It's alot more than 80% of the rest of the work force will end up with. What goes around, comes around! God bless America!

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25redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

cambridge, I gave you a example that showed that in this case both sides felt that everyone deserved to be treated equally. Now I guess it is not exactly what you wanted to hear, you wanted me to agree with your initial implication. Sorry about that, but your question was answered!

Now to explain what I meant by your initial statement, Your initial comment was "I'm sure that the non union white collar workers would do the same for the IUE workers if the shoe were on the other foot, right!" Now if that statement was worded "I'm sure that the non union white collar workers (or at least some of them) would do the same for the IUE workers if the shoe were on the other foot" would of been a positive comment instead of the smirky way you ended it. Now rest assured, not all the blue collars are rooting for the white collars. Yes cambridge, there are some not so nice people on the blue side, of course you already knew that.

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26JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Shakes-yours is an argument based on envy, this much is apparent. You are not alone in this fact nor in the fact that you simply won't come out and say it. Whatever though. “When in Rome,” right?

Google compared with Delphi doesn't jive on many levels, not the least of which is overhead. Manufacturers have exponentially more overhead than tech companies when starting a new product line (even before assuming the burden of employee compensation and benefits). P&L comparisons aren’t even in the same galaxy when aged one or even five years out. And while Google employees are enjoying “Bring Your Dog To Work Day” every Wednesday people at a manufacturing company would be busting their humps trying to make rate or compete with other suppliers in a tight, cost-driven market where any product can be manufactured for less offshore.

The study is a scholarly one conducted using universally accepted methodology and seeks to show facts from a causal perspective, because this differs drastically from what the media attempts to force-feed you at every opportunity the notion might seem foreign to you. Whatever envy or anger you harbor try to at least see what the study proves, it will soften the blow of your favorite local businesses closing within 12-24 months because of lost patronage given that all the people on the “gravy train” aren’t supporting them any longer.

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27cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

redvert....You have a habit of asking other people questions and avoiding any directed towards you. Any time you have asked me a question I have done my best to answer it.

May question to you is for your opinion. I'm not asking you for facts, source or any qualification. All I'm asking you is for your opinion which you can answer with a yes or a no.

This isn't the first time you have failed to answer a simple question. In the future don't bother asking me to answer any of your questions.

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28nekkid(5 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Lebowski, You need to go look in the mirror! Your comments to Shakes are about as dull-witted as the greed of your Delphi friends. They need to accept what has been, and accept what the future brings! They have been on top and it's time to come down. Go back and read what Shakes has said. If you can't comprehend it, then you are in that small majority of those that greed has grabbed. Are you a Delphi retiree...

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29redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Okay cambridge, I will get real basic with you so you will understand.

YES, I do believe that some of the WHITE collar workers want to see the BLUE collar workers treated fairly.

YES, I do believe that some of the BLUE collar workers want to see WHITE collar workers treated fairly.

NO, I do not believe that all of the White collar workers want to see the BLUE collar workers treated fairly.

NO, I do not believe that all of the BLUE collar workers want to see the WHITE collar workers treated fairly.

And there are some of each that could care %#$@*& less.

If this is not good enough for you then just live with it. People do not have to follow special rules in communicating with you. I know you are in California but I thought English was still your first language.

I'm done with this one.

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30UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

This would not have happened if Jimbo was our Congressman. We need Jimbo to replace worthless Timmy Ryan. Please run against him Jimbo - please!

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31ShaftedbyDelphi(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Cambridge,
Yes I would fight for the IUE members! Redvert is right, I formed bonds with hundreds of IUE members when I worked on "the floor" as a production supervisor and process engineers. Many of the older ladies who worked for me took me under their wing and treated me as a son or grandson. I hunt, fish, and target shoot with many of the hourly that I made friends with. I have litterally trusted them with my life on their boats on lake Erie to hunting and shooting with them. You will find this hard to beleive, but there was not much anamosity between the rank and file hourly and the rank and file salaried. We all worked hard together and played hard together and morned the loss of our jobs to Mexico and China.

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32ShaftedbyDelphi(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Run Jimbo Run!
He's just the son of a truckdriver!

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33Ytownboy(142 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

What's this nonsense about breaking the constitution? It happens all the time! The financial sector just received a huge bailout and they kept their bonuses while also sinking the rest of the economy with their financial chicanery. Yet, we can't find any money for the Delphi workers?

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34marvelous(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

There is plenty of blame to go around. Management made many poor decisions and the union demanded too much.

I am not anti-union nor am I anti-management. I think unions were necessary because companies WERE demanding too much of their employees. Unfortunately, as time went on union leaders as well as management lost sight of the goal. The goal should have been to sustain a reasonable profit, reasonable wages and benefits and long term stability which would have provided job security for current employees and jobs for future generations.

To be continued

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35marvelous(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Much of this problem started in the 1960's. When the Big 3 sold every vehicle they could build and were very profitable. When contract time came, the stock holders demanded that strikes be avoided at all costs because strikes meant loss of profit. As a result, labor contracts were written with many generous provisions that could not be sustained indefinitely.

At least 30 years ago, the Big 3 started communicating this to their unions because they foresaw what would eventually happen. Some union leaders recognized this too but no one listened to them. They were branded as traitors to the union and were not reelected. Many union leaders told the rank and file what they wanted to hear because they were more interested in being reelected than they were about protecting the union members' jobs. If they had been interested in protecting jobs, they would have worked more closely with the companies to negotiate contracts that would provide good wages and benefits at a level that would be sustainable long term. The union would also have encouraged workers to give a full days work but they didn't. Instead, many workers were told that if they produced less they could get more overtime and maybe the company would even have to hire more workers (union members).

To be continued

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36marvelous(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I have lost count of the number of times I have heard a union member say, "The company is lying to us. The accountants are only making it look like the company is losing money to get concessions from the union."

During local negotiations at some Delphi locations, union leaders spent days writing bogus grievances, piles and piles of them, demanding that they would only be settled after their other demands were met. This resulted in some very costly shop rules.

For example, if a department needed to work overtime, a certain number of tradesmen and other support workers had to be brought in and receive overtime pay whether they were needed or not. I have seen times when only 5 or 6 production workers were needed to catch up in few areas and because of local rules 7 or 8 support people had to be brought in, too. So, 7 or 8 people came in to watch 5 or 6 work.

We were relocating an office so office furniture, files, phones and computers were placed on skids and delivered to the new location. All tradesmen were fully occupied and a few of us decided to take the computers off of the skids and take them into the office so they wouldn't get damaged. An electrician told us if we didn't stop he was going call the committeeman because we were doing his job and he might lose some overtime even though he was already working 12 hours a day 7 days a week. If this had been an isolated incident, it probably wouldn't have mattered too much but the practice was wide spread.

I was hired as an hourly employee and later was promoted to a salaried position. In 2006 our plant was closed and I was offered early retirement with significantly reduced benefits. After paying for my own health care, my pension is approximately $300 per month.
-----------------------------
Responding to the person who asked if we were going to blame Obama for global warming?

You are correct he didn't create the problems that Delphi has. However, his administration has been working with GM to protect the retirement benefits for GM's workers both hourly and salary and they have decided to include most of the Delphi hourly employees and retirees, too.

We are not asking for special treatment. We are only asking for equal treatment. Since, there is not enough money to fund all of the pension plans then everyone in the group should accept some reduction in their benefits. Instead of taking most of the benefits away from one group while the others' benefits remain intact.

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37cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

ShaftedbyDelphi....I appreciate you pointing out that the union backs your fight as do I. I don't find your friendships with your co-workers hard to believe.

I worked in industrial construction all my life. Refineries,power plants factories etc. First as welder/pipefitter and the last fourteen years of my carrier in the engineering/design end of the business. I experienced every end of the business and everyone worked together for the good of the project and had friendships outside of work.

All that being said, I'm not naive and I do read the posts on this board. I've never read a post from a union member saying negative things or directing personal attacks on non union workers. I can't say the same for posts from people that express nothing but hatred for union members on this board.

I know how unions work. At a union meeting someone brought a motion up on the floor to back the fight of the non union Delphi workers for their pensions and health benefits. The members voted and the membership stepped up. I wish you luck in you fight.

The question I asked was, If the shoe were on the other foot would the non union white collar workers rally together and support the IUE workers? The answer to that question is NO.

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38JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

nek-I don't have any Delphi friends, I live over 500 miles away but have a vested interest in the valley since I grew up there. I am not a retiree nor a union member. I comprehend things quite well, arguably too well for my own good.

Also, I think you meant "dim-witted," not "dull-witted." Perhaps not, though...

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39andersonathan(675 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Kinda hard to do when the 2 mentioned are the pile and not the flies.

BTW that union blue collar mentality people have around this area, well your about to choke on it.

And China, Mexico and India and most likely another country next week have workers who will do your job for 3k a year 60 hours a week with no benefits.

But do not be to upset I pay my dues by the quarter. So you can blame the prez, congress, senate, white collar. But in the end it will not matter, sulking, whining will get you nothing. The only thing remotely close to a salvage is to take the lumps and bruises
and be great full for what, if anything you end up with.

Personally there is not a assembly line job in this country worth being paid for more than a school teacher

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40Shakesspeare(12 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Lebowski never disappoints as he spouts the standard uneducated lines. Anyone who tells the truth about the Delphi workers and their ridiculously generous wages, benefits, and pensions is obviously jealous! Sorry to disappoint you Jeff, but I'm doing very well thanks. I also am not at the mercy of some employer who might or might not be financially destroyed by my and my coworkers compensation packages. My 401K is still doing very well and my future is quite bright and guess what, it's totally because I'm self sufficient and control my own retirement and health care. I'm also on target to retire early!!! So no need to tell me how jealous I am of people who spent like drunken sailors, got their jobs through connections, forgot to save for the future, and now are at the mercy of the bankruptcy court. They made their own beds and have to deal with the consequences.

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41symmetrydave(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I started hourly rate in the IUE in 1976 at the Frigidaire plant (appliances) in Dayton, OH
I was soon transfered to a salaried position because I had a degree from Ohio State University. They asked me to take the job.
In retrospect I regret taking the "promotion". When Frigidaire was closed I transferred to Delco Products in Dayton. For years I was making less than the hourly rate counterparts in the automotive IUE union if you factored in overtime that they got paid for and the salaried employee didn't. Then, when GM started cutting due to losing money the salaried employees benefits were cut because we didn't have a union contract and the hourly union workers did. I actually didn't mind all this because I still had a good job.
But now after 33 years of working I am having my pension cut to the bone while if I would have stayed in an hourly position with the IUE I would have it topped off by GM. This was negotiated by the Treasury Dept. and the Auto Task Force working for Obama. THEY chose to leave the salaried retirees entirely out in the cold. I guess I made my bed and now I'm lying in it but this whole scenario is not fair and is being orchestrated with my tax dollars by my government. If this had all played out under a standard bankruptcy, there is no way the union employees would be getting this unfair treatment. Obviously you can alter bankruptcy laws if the Auto Czar and the President are union supporters.

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42JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

"Personally there is not a assembly line job in this country worth being paid for more than a school teacher," just a blatantly ignorant statement.

Shakes-you struggle to present coherent sentences that are purely based on bias yet everyone else is uneducated? I would imagine I speak for most people in saying that I couldn't care less about your finances, especially given what is being discussed. I'll say this one last time: the study shows that the region will be negatively affected AS A WHOLE by these events, without regard for individual professions and without even an ounce of bias. The fact that this simple premise eludes you speaks volumes.

In my personal experience those who feel the need to assert their relative "wealth" are typically pretty insecure people that in reality aren't that well off and those that make broad generalizations ("all employees of a company are/were financially irresponsible people") are frankly not very intelligent. You’ve done nothing to change my opinions.

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43DoctorGonzo(728 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I agree. Not everyone has the opportunity to build a "healthy" portfolio. Those who went to work 40 hours a week for decades deserve what they earned via retirement.
Those who will tell you how great their life is will finish last more often than not.

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44redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

The lesson to be learned by the younger generation in this day of 401K's and Roth IRA's is to do without some of that fluff during your working years and invest in your own retirement. There are no guarantees of company pensions. If you choose to work for a company that has a conventional pension plan, that is great but don't bet your future on it. No one could foresee what has happened. A company with a good 401K is even better in my opinion. The only one that will really look out for your retirement is you. The years go by fast.

Hopefully everyone in this case will be treated equally but politics being what it is I would not guarantee it, at least not until election time.

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45symmetrydave(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

The IUE has done nothing to help the Delphi Salaried retirees that I know of except lip service. We appreciate that, but do you think they will strike to get the Salaried retirees pensions? The answer to that is a big fat NO!

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46cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

symmertrydave.....Re: the IUE. "do you think they will strike to get the Salaried retirees pensions?"

First of all that would be against the law, secondly if the shoe were on the other foot would the salaried employees walkout to support the IUE?

marvelous...."Since, there is not enough money to fund all of the pensions plans then everyone in the group should accept some reduction in their benefits."

In other words you want the IUE members to give part of their pensions to you. Or another way of saying it is "If I'm getting screwed everyone else should too."

If the shoe were on the other foot would you give up part of your pension to the IUE members?

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47redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

cambridge, back in post #40 you apparently used mental telepathy to envision where a union member asked the rank and file to support the salaried workers. That request was approved. Maybe you could go back and ask them to strike. It may of been against the law a year ago but we have a new kid in town and he can do anything!

Who are we kidding, neither side is gonna give up any part of their pension to help the other side and neither would you.

In case you were wondering, I do not have to make that decision cause my 401 does not come out of a common pool. That was taken care of about 35 years ago.

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48cambridge(3107 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

redvert....I didn't envision anything about what brought the union membership to support the salaried employees in their fight. I'm speaking from my experience of how unions work due to a life long membership and my attendance at hundreds of union meetings. What is the bases for your vision on how that endorsement came about?

I understand that neither side is going to give up part of their pension but that doesn't seem to stop some people from thinking that's what the union members should do. A ridiculous suggestion on how to right a wrong.

As far as your 401, I wasn't wondering. I do wish you and everyone else well and believe no employee should be treated the way these people were.

The people that direct the blame for this to Obama are laughable. Bankruptcy laws were in place long before Obama was in office and the Bush administration created an environment for companies to move overseas and gave them tax breaks to do it. In the case of Halliburton they avoided paying taxes on the billions of taxpayer dollars on no bid contracts from Dick Cheney by moving to Dubai. .

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49redvert(2100 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

I have no idea on how that endorsement came about and neither do you. Could of been sincere (hopefully) or it could of been a "now that we got ours we will pretend to be nice and support you." It also may be a policy chosen by the union bosses to put the union in a good light. The union bosses would have to put their stamp of approval on it regardless of what the rank and file thought. Yes, I have learned a little about who actually calls the shots from local UAW and IBEW friends here in the valley.

I have heard about IBEW votes cast here in the valley, sealed and tabulated in Cleveland or elsewhere with results that were questionable.

Well at least we will no longer have any no-bid contracts under Obama...

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50symmetrydave(3 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

cambridge, I'm not asking anyone to give up anything. I want the same treatment from my government that the union employees got as I pay the same tax dollars they do. I DO Not want them to gfive up any portion of their pensions and applaud them for getting what they did out of this government spoonsored mess.

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51andersonathan(675 comments)posted 5 years, 2 months ago

Hey loboski you think that comment is ignorant tell me one line job at any auto plant Delphi plant Lear plant that is wroth more than 10 dollars a hour to start and never go over 17. A job is a job idiot, the people crying, they are spoiled, they are used to the big money the unions gave them all these years. And like I am saying choke on it baby.

And you and a couple others around here need to put the key board down and open your eyes and ears up to what is really going on. That life is all but over in high wage good benefits and high retirements in manufacturing.

People want to blame China and Mexico when in fact the unions did all but negotiate their jobs away, little by little.

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