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Miller, Gallitto must work to solve Boardman’s crisis

Published: Sat, October 24, 2009 @ 12:00 a.m.

With Boardman Township on the verge of being placed under fiscal watch by the state auditor, continuity on the board of trustees makes sense. This is not to say that Kathy Miller and Robyn Gallitto, who are seeking re-election this year, are the only ones on the ballot qualified to serve. But they do have one thing going for them that none of the others do: An intimate knowledge of the township’s budget.

And, given that a declaration of fiscal watch will require the board of trustees to develop a fiscal recovery plan acceptable to the state, Miller, Gallitto and their colleague, Larry Moliterno, who is not up for re-election this year, should be in a position to respond quickly.

Other than Thomas Costello, who lost his seat four years ago, the other candidates would need time to familiarize themselves with the operation of Boardman government. But government doesn’t have the luxury of time.

The two incumbents and three of the five challengers, Costello, Brad Calhoun and Gary Rosati, appeared before members of The Vindicator’s editorial board and a reporter as part of the endorsement process.

We were looking for a strong case to be made against the re-election of Miller and Gallitto, but none of the challengers rose to the occasion. To be sure, they each offered opinions about the budget and the reason for the township’s fiscal crisis, but weren’t able to provide solutions that were different from anything the incumbents have proposed.

There are two ways of looking at the race this year: One, Miller and Gallitto should be held responsible for Boardman’s collapse and, therefore, should be replaced; two, the incumbents should be made to stay on and help guide the township through these dark days. It’s easy to govern when things are going swimmingly. It’s a challenge when nothing seems to be working.

Action plan

Miller and Gallitto should have the chance to show they are up to the challenge. In addition, they, along with Moliterno, must have to face residents when the state auditor’s office issues the fiscal watch declaration and details the steps trustees must take to reverse the course.

Since more 80 percent of the operating budget goes toward employees’ salaries and benefits, any cost-cutting program will have to focus on slashing the compensation packages or reducing the payroll. They have already taken some steps toward that end and toward reining in costs that have ballooned over the years.

Even if state auditors suggest that the trustees seek an operating levy, the reality is that the residents of Boardman are in no mood to give government any more money. A year ago, they passed a levy for the police and fire departments with the understanding that police officers would be hired to bring the force up to acceptable levels and that firefighters on layoff would be called back.

But the national economic recession caused Boardman, like other communities in the Mahon–ing Valley, to reassess its spending priorities.

If this editorial appears cautious, it’s because we aren’t sure anyone has the answers for what ails Boardman. We just hope that Miller, Gallitto and Moliterno are able to provide the leadership necessary to get employees to sign on to the cost-cutting measures that will become necessary.

We also urge them to establish a close working relationship with the township’s fiscal officer, William Leicht, so they have confidence in the financial data and revenue projections he provides.

Finally, the trustees should objectively evaluate the performance of Administrator Jason Loree and ponder whether someone with greater experience and knowledge of township government is needed during this challenging time.

The Vindicator endorses Miller and Gallitto for re-election — with the admonition that they set aside whatever personal animus may exist and keep their focus on the township’s bottom line.


1Tugboat(759 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The Vindy wrote:"But the national economic recession caused Boardman, like other communities in the Mahoning Valley, to reassess its spending priorities."

They sure did that at these meetings:




The Vindy also wrote: "We also urge them to establish a close working relationship with the township’s fiscal officer, William Leicht..... endorses Miller and Gallitto for re-election — with the admonition that they set aside whatever personal animus may exist and keep their focus on the township’s bottom line."

They have had 8 years and 4 years respectively to do this. 'With Boardman Township on the verge of being placed under fiscal watch by the state auditor,' firing this board of trustees makes sense.

The shelf life of any "hope" we had for these two expired when these two sought other appointments.

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2SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I absolutely agree with Tugboat. Miller & Gallito have put this township in a shambles. They have no credibility with the residents as they have alienated them. They have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars pushing the own personal agendas- Replacing good quality administrators and police chiefs with ones who are mediocre at best.

They put levies on the ballot and promise the residents to hire more police officers and hire 1.

They have a Fire Chief who acts like the president of the FIrefighters union, refuses to manage his budget, and then closes stations in the name of fiscal responsibility. The Board sits by idly and does nothing while he puts the safety of the township in jeopardy.

The Vindicator in endorsing these two Bozos for re-election has its head up its *ss. We need a total house cleaning on that board to restore integrity and the confidence of the residents. This election is a turning point in the history of the township.

Unless the voters go to the polls and show that they are "Mad as H*ll and they are not going to take it any more!" and clean house, Boardman will become the next Youngstown. If this happens, after 53 years of living here, I will not be calling Boardman home any longer.

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3apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Seeking other appointments Tug isn't even relevant. You supported the former chief Patterson even as he was getting a law degree and interviewing for other chiefs positions. Did that disqualify him as Boardman chief? Yet, you want to make this an issue for trustee. Why the inconsistency Tug? Oh wait, union guys stick together I forgot. That's why Calhoun isn't the right choice for trustee. He's unlikely to ask the unions for concessions. He doesn't know anything other than the public sector and unions. Miller and Gallitto can look at things from the proper perspective of running Boardman like a business. Blaming them for the mentality that permeated Boardman for 20 years doesn't make sense either. The inheritance money was thrown away by past trustees even as Miller tried to raise a red flag about spending but got shot down by the other 2 trustees, the department heads, and Seditz. Even Leicht supported using the inheritance money for employee compensation which more than a few auditors said was voodoo economics.

The Vindicator got their endorsements correct. Miller and Gallitto are the best choices.

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4apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

SkyKing, the township was put on the path of financial ruin by Mancini and Costello along with Leicht, the department heads, Seditz, and the unions. Miller and Gallitto were simply left with the ruins.

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5SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo, you better check again. Miller & Gallitto are the major cause of the problems Boardman is facing. They have no Credibility with the voters and should be booted out!

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6apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

SkyKing must be a Smith cabal supporter or a union member. The contract giveaways that put the township in this financial mess started with Mancini and rubber stamper Costello. Miller warned of the financial meltdown years ago and could do nothing about it. Just recently, they've finally gotten the attention of the unions who were in denial about the situation. Because of former trustees, Leicht, Seditz, and department heads thinking the golden inheritance dollars would flow perpetually, the township spent those on frivolous new palaces and giveaway contracts. Miller wanted to sit in on contract negotiations and who ran to Gains to prevent that? Costello and Mancini!

You can blame Miller and Gallitto all you want because of your agenda, but the fact is, they aren't to blame, previous trustees are.

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7Tugboat(759 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo, you wrote '...Gallitto can look at things from the proper perspective of running Boardman like a business'

She got into politics to settle a score. You yourself have called her a 'snake.' You are presently out voted 2-1.

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8apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

How come Tug all of a sudden Miller is outvoted 2-1. That hasn't been part of your lie campaign before. That's what I've been saying all along and you've been saying it isn't true. So now it IS true? I can see why the Vindy chose to endorse Miller and Gallitto. They are the only ones with knowledge of the township except Costello and he was pathetic the first go round. Calhoun will just give the unions anything they want since he is a union member and was a union president. That's what got Boardman into this mess in the first place. We don't need more union giveaways.

The financial situation is deteriorating and will get worse. Watch and emergency are on the horizon thanks to Elaine and her hands off, let the department heads run things mentality and Costello's rubber stamping. Gave away over 40 million in inheritance dollars to the palace on Market and union contracts. You benefited greatly from that mismanagement and Calhoun will just be a puppet for the union.

I still can't believe that he removed those teacher ratings on ratemyteacher.com immediately after I pointed them out to you. If he can't take what 8th graders say about him, how's he going to handle what the newspapers and citizens say about him?

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9SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo- let's set the record straight-

1. I am not a member of any union

2. I know Mr. Smith but I'm not one of his "cabal" supporters.

3. I have lived in this community 53 years, attended the schools and own a business here.

4. You are so full of crap when you try to tell me that Miller & Gallitto have the best interests of the township at heart. If that were the case, why have so many residents left board meetings in utter disgust?

5. Why did the 2 queen bees change the meetings from 7:00pm to an earlier time which is inconvenient to most residents who are working?

6. Why have they limited public comment to 3 minutes?

7. Why did they move public comment to the end of the meeting?

8. Why do they let a Fire Chief mismanage his budget, close fire stations and say nothing- especially after the voters approve additional funds and why have they only hired one police officer?

9. The amount of overtime they have let him spend could have paid for several additional police officers, but instaed they cry Poor Mouth!

10. These issues all rest directly in the laps of Miller & Gallitto. They have nothing to do with Mancini, Costello or any other previous trustee!


One other point- Chief Patterson finishing his law degree at his own expense (unlike the 2 queens' last appointment), I find to be commendable and he only began looking for other employent AFTER- repeat- AFTER they made it almost impossible for him to do his job effectively- Right Robyn?

After they forced him out, we lost 25% of the police force- but of course this should be blamed on previous trustees too- Right Apollo?

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10Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Obviously I’m disappointed in the Vindy’s endorsements, and a bit mystified in the logic.
First the Vindy admits there’s a fiscal crisis in the township but then they says that those in charge for the past four (or eight) years are the best qualified to fix the problem. That’s like saying the captain who ran the ship of state on the reef is the most qualified person to get it off the reef.

I know there are Miller/Gallitto supports out there who blame the prior Trustees for the township’s problems, but the fact is the incumbents have had four years to fix things and they failed to do it. Now we are facing a crisis that needs to be fixed in ONE year and those who failed to fix it in FOUR are the best qualified going forward? Where’s the logic in that?

I known, Robyn likes to point out that the deficit in the general fund was $3M when she came into office and now its “only” $1M, but the fact is her term saw the taxpayer ponying-up an extra levy (2.1 mil), money the prior Trustee’s didn’t have, and she’s still $1M short. Not to mention that the money was for “up to ten” new policeman and to re-open the fire stations, and we only got ONE new policeman and fire stations are being closed again!

The fact is the incumbents have made decisions that have dearly cost the township. They completely mismanaged the lay-offs, costing the township both in unemployment expenses and increased overtime. They purchased the grinding machine, the so-called “beast”, for some $260,000.00, only to see it unused and rusting away after only a few months in operation. And they refuse to stand up to the Fire Chief who has hi-jacked the budget at the cost of over 5500 hour in over-time in 2008 alone!

Finally, while arguing the township doesn’t have “the luxury of time” for new Trustees, the Vindy suggests we should dump our Administrator, Jason Loree. But if new Trustees don’t have the “time to familiarize themselves with the operation of Boardman government”, then how would bringing in a new Administrator be any different?

The fact is the “buck” stops with the current Trustees. They, more than anyone else, are to blame for the current crisis in the township, and they should be held accountable. The voters needs to do what’s best for the Township and bring in someone willing to fight to cut costs, and get our budget balanced in ONE year, and not decide to get serious after four.

Gary Rosati

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11NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The police are down 15 or 16 since the budget hit the fan. The firemen are down 7 or 8 since then. The road department is down 10 or 11. That adds up to significant savings in wages and benefits. Where is that money? The firemen had a plan to provide better service to the township residents for almost no initial outlay of money, that would generate a half million dollars in the first year. Why did the trustees not even look at it? (and before he starts, stand by for more vitriol and conspiracy theories from apollo, who flies off the deep end at the mere mention of this.) What's it hurt to let them try?

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12Tugboat(759 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Why do some candidates place the blame on a "foreclosure crisis" when, according to the county, the numbers for Boardman appear to be consistent with other communities in the County yet we don't hear about them having a fiscal crisis? Why doesn't anyone point out that two large uncollected accounts are the hospitals in Boardman? They have filed for tax exemption status from the state of Ohio, but the taxes continue to accumulate and are counted as part of the uncollectible debt. Fact. Go to the auditor's site and check for yourself.

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13Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ NoBS: The money has gone to pay overtime and bloated salaries. We need to get the right level of employees/pay. Every system has its equilibrium point and the township is no different. Too many employees, at too high a salary, and you’re paying for personnel you don’t need. Too few employees and you’re forced make-up the difference with overtime. The Fireman’s contract provides for nine hours of overtime per shift. That needs to change. Also, overtime at the Fire Dept. was caused in part by firefighters being off because of injuries. There needs to be a part-time force that can cover in such situations. As to the ambulance service, there’s certainly no guarantee of successes. It would be irresponsible to gamble on such a service in a time of fiscal crisis.

@ Tugboat: Well, of course every community is suffering because of the foreclosure crisis, but most have learned to operate within their means. Boardman has not. It‘s been a long running practice to fill the hole in the general fund with inheritance money, money that could not be counted-on. That practice has continued under the current administration. The result is that we will now enter the new-year with a deficit with no carryover to cove it. And because we cannot operate at a deficient we need to balance that budget in 2010. The fact is the incumbents have had four years to fix the problem and they have failed. They have put us in a very precarious position going forward. That’s why it’s irresponsible for the Vindy to endorse them for another term. As to the money due from the hospitals in Boardman, as an old collection attorney, I’m very interested in that.

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14Tugboat(759 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago


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15SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Dakka- According to this weeks Boardman News, the fire dept has used almost 7000 hours of overtime through the first 9 months of 2009. This is inexcusable!

If elected, would you replace Dorman with someone who could manage within his budget?

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16apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Let's address some fallacies.

People who have agendas like Rosati who is running for trustee tend to lie to further their agenda.

King says, I am not a member of any union. Have you EVER been a union member? If so, your bias is showing.

King says, I know Smith but am not a cabal supporter. Perhaps you aren't knowledgeable enough to realize that whomever you support is a Smith cabal groupie.

King says, I have lived here 50 some years, went to Boardman schools and own a business. So what. Many of us can say the same. What relevance is that?

King says, why have so many left in disgust? Because they are the Smith cabal supporters mainly. When Miller questioned spending years ago and Mancini and Costello simply laughed at her and the department heads rolled their eyes and Leicht acted as though "kooky Kathy" couldn't figure out accounting, I suspect many walked out because Kathy was smart enough to see the spending was unsustainable. Who is right now?

There were also some loonies from the North side who wanted that substation. How did that turn out? Someone got a sweet real estate deal there and Kathy was smart enough to point it out back then.

Why change the meetings to 5 from 7? I think it happened when Moliterno came in so I'm guessing he wanted it changed.

3 minutes made sense because there were those goofy residents of the North side who wanted to rant about their crazy dreams and fabricated issues.

I was at the meeting last time and the public comment WAS NOT at the end of the meeting. That is an out and out lie.

I'm no fan of Dorman, but if you KNOW ABOUT and UNDERSTAND the contract there is BUILT in overtime because they work 24 on and 48 off. Instead of just whining about the OT, check why it occurs. Also, because of CONTRACTUAL manpower requirements, more OVERTIME is mandated. (otherwise closed stations result)

All the costs issues are the result of MANCINI, COSTELLO, LEICHT, and the DEPARTMENT HEADS using the inheritance monies (40+ million) to inflate the wages and benefits of the township's employees. That's been happening for 20 years. It's why the AUDIT says we pay 20,000 more per employee than peer communities.

Please folks, get educated as to the truth about the situation in Boardman and quit this agenda bull crap.

At least DAKKA has some knowledge of the bloated wages and benefits.

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17apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Also, the lie that is being told by the fire fighters is that we could offer ambulance service with (little or no depending on day of the week) investment and could earn 500,000 thousand a year. ROTFLMAO. Yeah, and I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you. Private sector companies are barely surviving now and they already have the equipment and pay their employees LESS than Boardman does. One just closed up recently for being unable to make money. Their numbers are complete fabrications and their motive is to make themselves less likely to be turned into a volunteer department which should be on the table. There are almost zero real fires in Boardman and Austintown survives very well on a part full and part volunteer department.

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18apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I really like this comment from DAKKA: I know there are Miller/Gallitto supports out there who blame the prior Trustees for the township’s problems, but the fact is the incumbents have had four years to fix things and they failed to do it.

So how would YOU have fixed it?

Would you have forced massive concessions on 85% of the budget? How would YOU have done this?

Maybe you would have pointed out to President Bush that a housing bubble was about to burst and cause a recession?

Explain to us Miller supporters how YOU would have fixed the budget!!! This should be real good folks!

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19Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ SkyKing: Yes, I would seek a new Fire Chief. It’s a campaign promise.

@ Apollo: I have no agenda (BTW, Dakka = Rosati). I only want to put our township on track. As to the Firefighter’s contract, it requires only eight men per shift (per an amendment. The original contract provided for nine men per shift), but the Chief insists on no less than ten men per shift. He’s causing unnecessary overtime costs. I blame him and the current Trustees for letting this situation go on too long.

The cost issues have been going on for some time but that’s no excuse for the current administration. They should have seen it coming. They had four years to fix it and they failed. Gallitto ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility and she failed.

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20SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo- The overtime problem in the fire dept is the responsibility of Dorman and the trustees! Who says the fire dept HAS to work 24 on 48 off? The chief could change the work schedule if he wanted to. Every union contract I have ever seen begins with the following statement: MANAGEMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO JOB ASSIGNMENT! Management in this case is Dorman and the Trustees. He runs the fire dept with the consent of the Trustees. If they don't like the way he does it, they have the right, no the Duty to replace him. Obviously, they are not concerned about his mismanagement. Because of this, if for no other reason, Miller and Gallitto should be shown the door.

I do agree with you on the ambulance service and for the reasons you stated. This would be a ludicrous, money losing proposition.

You still haven't answered the question I asked you.

At the end of 2005, the Township had $14 million in the bank. Gallitto states the general fund had a deficit of $3 million in the general fund when she took office in 2006. That's a difference of $17 miilion and that doesn't add up. If you have $14 million in your savings account and your checking account is overdrawn by $3 million you don't have $14 million in the bank- you have $11 million. Her numbers don't add up. WHERE DID THE MONEY GO?

Also, just to point out about the housing bubble- you can thank Bill Clinton for that one, not Bush.

Clinton told the bankers(his words, not mine) to loosen up the requirements for their lending policies so that minorities could enjoy home ownership in the same percentage that the white population did. That's what caused the real estate bubble. The banks made loans to people who could not afford what they purchased, so they defaulted.

It's projected another one is just around the corner that will make the current fiasco look like a Sunday School picnic. I sincerely hope that is wrong!

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21NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Rosati, Boardman was $3 million in the hole going into 2009, too. They had it paid back by the end of March. Don't act like this is some horrible thing - most communities borrow money to get them through the first couple months every year. There's plenty to be outraged about in Boardman, but that's not on the list.

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22NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Rosati, I'll be polite and say you've made an error. The firemen do NOT get 9 hours of OT in each and every shift. You should do the honorable thing and find out for yourself what they get, and then correct your erroneous statement. How much of your other prejudices against the FD are based on false information?

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23apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I don't know much about you Mr. Rosati. Are you related to Kate? I worked with Kate Rosati before. You seem like you have a grasp of the issues unlike most of the other posters here. How are you going to balance the budget? Tax hikes or spending cuts? With 85% of the budget going to wages and benefits, cutting the ridiculous wages and benefits won't be easy. The word impossible comes to mind.

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24apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

What happened to the surplus King? That's easy, sweet contracts that the old regime of Mancini and Costello gave away based on the inheritance money forced the township to spend more per year than they were taking in revenue wise. Often 3 million per year. Seditz was incompetent and his raise was based on the raises the unions got. Do you see the conflict there? He had no incentive to keep the contracts within budget. In fact, his reward was to give MORE to the unions so that his raise was also higher. Nearly all of the spending under Mancini and Costello was driven by the department heads. Rubber stamped by Elaine and Tom whose philosophy was that the department heads knew what they needed. My question is then why did we need Mancini and Costello? Aren't they taxpayer advocates?

So why did Costello and Mancini not want Miller to sit in on the negotiations? Perhaps she'd see that Seditz was incompetent and voting for those giveaway contracts was a mistake? So much for transparency I guess.

Hey King, read the audit at all? We are paying 20,000 per employee more than peer communities. That pretty much covers the deficits. People like Tugboat benefited greatly from the overspending since he was a former employee. His desire is to keep the trough flowing for himself and his friends, that's why he supports Calhoun a teachers union member. He also disliked Berarducci because his buddy Patterson was canned and he and the officers in the township wanted one of their own promoted. Outsiders aren't welcome.

They also don't like me because I pointed out their less than truthful scams. The cooked clearance, the waste of money substation, the take home cars fiasco, the stupid IT advertisement that Patterson had from Florida and subsequent hire, the 200,000 they wasted on CALEA. Not to mention the 2 men per truck, 6 cars per shift, 4 hours minimum for court appearances, and other such folly. It really is very easy to see why the finances are in such a mess. All this goofiness started under Mancini long ago.

NoBS, the firemen do get OT all the time because of their 24/48 schedule. Maybe Rosati doesn't have the exact number right but he has the idea right. The township was fraught with mismanagement when Mancini and Costello ran things. Actually it goes back even further than that. Sweet contracts with built in OT to pad the salaries. Almost 40 paid vacation days for senior people, 11 holidays. (recently cut back to 10 for patrolmen) Health care beyond anything the private sector could hope for. Pensions the envy of the working world. "SPIKING" those last few years of employment to extract huge payments of accumulated sick and vacation time and better pensions. Public service was never intended to be that sweet.

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25Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Sorry I could not respond sooner. It’s my wife’s birthday today and we have family stuff going on. Anyway…

@ Apollo: Well, like Valleypolitics says, it’s not rocket science. You pay your people a respectable wage, one the budget can afford, with benefits supported by contributions comparable to the private sector, and you expect your salary employees to fill-in when and where needed, at no extra cost to the township. You cut back on the frills and focus on the basics, and if necessary you hire some part-times to help-out. The trick is getting the unions to agree. So you’re forced into half-measures, like a two-tiered wage rates. Even that is a hard sell, but you have to have the determination and leadership to get it done.

One thing’s for certain: I intend on bring part-timers into the Fire Department and I intend on being one of those part-timers. Can we count on you? I also intend to get creative with heath care, like establishing Heath Savings Accounts (HSA), and giving bonuses for certain life choices, like being a non-smoker/non-drinker, biking to work, etc. I also intend on keeping in close contact with the regulars on this board.

@ NoBS: That loan of $3M cost the township $180,00.00 in interest, plus additional costs in fees. I do not intend on borrowing any more. I’m convinced there’s money to be wrung out of the budget, but it’ll take hard work and dedication to find it. I’m committed to doing the hard work and getting it done my first year.

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26Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ NoBS: OK, I’m sorry, you’re right. It appears to be nine hours a month. Here’s the language from the contract: “ARTICLE 26, Section 1 Suppression Work Day/Schedule/Period. … For FLSA purposes, a regular work period shall consist of twenty-one (21) days during which each firefighter shall be regularly scheduled to work one hundred sixty-eight (168) on-duty hours.

Section 2 Overtime. Of these regularly scheduled hours, the first one hundred fifty-nine (159) hours shall be compensated at the standard hourly rate and the remaining nine (9) hours or regularly scheduled on-duty hours shall be compensated at the FLSA overtime rate…

@ Apollo: Yes, Kate is my sister-in-law. She’s married to my younger brother Jim Rosati.

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27jr99(101 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

So Rosati, you plan on hiring yourself as a part-time firefighter?? What experience as a firefighter do you have? More importantly, how much will you be paying yourself?? Then again, you'll have all the time to fight fires after you lose the election. Too bad the apartment dwellers won't be voting for you or anyone else. You know, the dirtbag apartment buildings you have your signs in the front yards.

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28boardmanneedschange(364 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Listen up people, these two have had their chance to make things better, and on their watch have lost money for Boardman Township. It is time to show them the door and welcome someone else to do the job. I love how they both state that they run on a platform of fiscal responsibility. Excuse me girls, but how can that be possible when for the last few years you have lost us money? Your political careers are over, go back to selling real estate and practicing law. We dont want you anymore, and we will let you know on election day. You should both be ashamed of yourselves for choosing to run for re-election.

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29boardmanneedschange(364 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

And for the record, the Vindicator endorsing someone for re-election should tell you right there that these two are absolute buffons who need run out of town. These are the same people who employ Bertram De Souza, the one who can't stop writing about James Traficant, yet wants him out of the public eye. Brilliant.

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30apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Gary, if you get elected and Gallitto gets elected, you'll be out voted 2-1 like Miller is. The township needs to elect Miller AND you in order to get any changes made!

On second thought, once the state takes over in fiscal emergency, it won't matter who the trustees are since the state will be making all the spending decisions.

Good luck! The train was run off the tracks years ago by a now gone conductor who is enjoying that sweet township provided retirement.

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31countyscoop(22 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

If according to an earlier writer the township was in the hole $3,000,000 and they paid it back with interest, how does it make sense they are okay now? Say you collect $17,000,000 and you paid back a loan of $3,180,000 you have a whole lot less to operate on for the balance of the year or does this become an annual cost? I guess it might depend on whether the $3,000,000 was for end of 2008 expenses or any part of 2090. Rosati you should call and check that out for those of us that want to know.

By the way, what is the rift with the Liberty administrator and two of the trustees?

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32Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ jr99: No training to date but I’m in pretty good shape and look forward to the challenge. How about you, willing to give it a try? Of course I’ll abstain from voting on my own application (assuming I pass the training), and the pay, well it’ll be less than the full-time guys. That’s the whole point. It’s about public service.

No need to get mean and nasty. People who live in apartments have the same rights as the next guy, and I certainly don’t discriminate, particularly when it comes to support.

@ countyscoop: The loan was taken out earlier this year and repaid (with interest) within a few months. It was necessary to cover a temporary short-fall in the budget. The township receives two disbursements a year from the County for property taxes. What happened is the township spent all of the money it had in the general budget for the first part of the year before it received its second disbursement. So they had to borrow to pay expenses in the interim. Its not intended to be an annual thing (at least not for Boardman, not in the past), more of an emergency/”panic button” kind-of-thing, but some township do rely fairly regularly on such funding. I’m running to try and stop this from becoming “an annual cost”. Paying all that interest is not good business. More recently the township borrowed money internally, from reserve funds, to avoid the interest and costs of a bank loan.

The loan is listed on the state Fiscal Analysis (Draft) under “Other Financing Sources (Uses)”, both coming in (as “Proceeds from Tax Anticipation Note”) and out going as a “Transfer Out”.

Sorry, don’t know anything about the rift with the Liberty administrator and two of the trustees. Sounds like gossip to me and I’m not interested in gossip.

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33SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Well Apollo, if I remember correctly, when your buddy Robyn came into office in 2006, there were negotiations ongoing with several of the unions which were not completed. Those negotiations were completed and Accepted by the trustees. If she and Miller didn't like them, they should not have accepted them. That's where the problem could have been nipped in the bud.

As Mr. Rosati kindly pointed out by citing the section of the Firefighters contract regarding scheduling and overtime, each firefighter is entitled to 9 hours per month of overtime. Now let me see- 9x12=108 x 36 firefighters=3888 of ovetime per year. Dorman has used double that in 9 months.

Again as I said before, he needs to go and if Batwoman, Robyn and Moliterno won't do it, they should be shown the door. I'm sure the firefighters have had a new contract during the 2006-2009 time period also and this language regarding scheduling and overtime should have been deleted.

I have no axe to grind with either the firefighters or the police dept. I have a problem with the contracts and management. Those who are supposed to represent us are not doing it but pursue their own agendas. I also feel that the manpower issues need to be adressed and I know that employees who are effected by change don't necessary like it, but its always better to have 80% of something than 100% of nothing. If we need to cut back on the number of full time firefighters and supplement the dept with part-time and volunteers, they may not like it but reality is what it is. We can't afford the payroll as it stands.

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34SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Hey Valley- or should I call you Nancy Pelosi? The items were included because Bill wanted the changes made that I wrote about earlier. It wasn't just the Republicans. The Dems were in on it too.

I'm just tired of everyone blaming someone else because they don't want to take responsiblity for their actions. Just like Miller and Gallitto don't want to take responsibiity for their part in the problems facing Boardman.

Appolo-I've sat through enough Trustee meetings over the last 8 years to see what an idiot Miller makes herself look like to the point that other trustees tell her publicly that she is worthless and when Queen Robyn came to power she showed her comtept for everyone by her attitude. Possibly they have recently moved the public commnet time to earlier in the meetings, but they have been towards the end of the agenda for quite a while. I can't remember exactly when, but I'm sure the meeting time was changed before Moliterno came to the board.

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35apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, it's easy from the outside to say that this language should be eliminated or that contract should have been negotiated lower, but the reality is the trustees do not do any of the negotiating and you simply can't tell the unions what you are going to pay them. They'll file to have a mediator or take the township to arbitration and historically the arbitrators have not been kind to entities that have the money. That's where much of the inheritance money went. You outsiders simply do not understand the difficulty in cutting a budget that is primarily wages and benefits. It isn't as simple as just demanding or telling the employees what you want to pay them.

Hey King, Robyn isn't my buddy. I saw immediately from day one that she was not going to do what she campaigned on. She lied basically and I no longer support her. The only person I support is Miller but this Gary Rosati guy is peaking my interest. I think he and Miller are cut from the same cloth. At least he has some good ideas and not just bad mouthing the others.

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36apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Also King, it wasn't the home loans to the lower income people that caused the financial mess and the housing bubble to burst. I doubt most of them were buying million dollar condos in Miami, Vegas, and California. It was caused by Mortgage backed securities that the Bush SEC turned a blind eye to and that was opened up by the Gramm, Leach, Bliley legislation. Buying and selling credit default swaps at 40-1 leverage caused this mess.

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37SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo- I sure as heck hope he's not. We can't stand another 4 years of 2 incompetant imbiciles on that board.

I didn't say it was solely caused by lending money to low income families. I said the legislation passed under Clinton to push his agenda was what caused it. And again I said there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the aisle.

This is one reason I don't like what is going on regarding the health care debate- Congress won't post the bills on the internet for us to read and see what they are proposing and the members don't have time to read these 1000+ page bills.

It may be true that mediators haven't been kind if you have the money, but the answer is not to spend it all so the township can be declared bankrupt to void the contracts either. BTW- I believe I pointer out to you earlier that I am not an "outsider".

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38apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

OK King, are you in a union?

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39Ken(153 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

To read and listen to Miller and Gallito, you would think they are true public servants who watch over the public's money!! In reality, they have lied, mis spent, threathened employees, found new ways to spin the budget mess and continue to take the township on a downward spiral and further embarrassment. It's time for a change...and when Moliterno is up for reelection...vote him out as well!

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40NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

SkyKing310B (38 comments)posted 1 day, 2 hours ago

Dakka- According to this weeks Boardman News, the fire dept has used almost 7000 hours of overtime through the first 9 months of 2009. This is inexcusable.

What's inexcusable is that you believe anything written in the Boardman News

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41harleydog(243 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The Boardman News is not a newspaper. It's something that you wrap your trash in before you throw it out. Did you ever hear of spell check Darnell. Ninety percent of the paper is the police blotter and the rest is Darnell's personal opinion on things which doesn't amount to much.

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42boardmanneedschange(364 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I tell you what, the Boardman News police blotter is one of my favorite things to read. I almost laugh myself into a hernia every time it is delivered. That said, the Vindy has about the same quality of news and opinionated mumbo jumbo, just with a bit more advertising and content, and not as funny. Newswise, they are both bottom of the birdcage material, but good for conversation and entertainment value.

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43SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Apollo- I am not a union member now. I woked at Lordstown while going to college, so during those years I did belong to the UAW 1112.

I've been a self-employed business owner for the last 23 years.

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44SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Harleydog, the number of entries each week in the police blotter is what REALLY concerns me, which is why we need the FireDept to get its financial house in order to hire more police.

We currently have 5 officers on duty per shift to patrol the largest township in the State of Ohio. This is no way enough.

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45ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

to skyking:
Uhh, why do you think it's the largest twp in ohio?
(robyn says it's the 10th largest)

If it's large enuf for all those cops, don't u think we're gonna need to maintain the fire dept? No fire station in the whole southern end of the twp, only 8 on duty per day versus at LEAST 15-20 cops per day.

Get the facts before you puke you vomit all over this board.

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46ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

the OT the Fd works is an AVERAGE of 3 hours per week. The actual schedule requires a ridiculous 56 hours/wk. Most people get OT after 40, Federal law states FFs don't get time and 1/2 until they've worked 53 hrs in a week. For real.
So, you too could use a little perspective it seems.
Also, the interest on the loan came nowhere near 180k. Try 30k. True. Ask Leicht. No, wait, he doesn't have a clue. They THOUGHT they would have to pay 180k, but, as usual, they inflated the actual figure (SIX TIMES) in order to hide or earmark money. Again. (remember, they were negotiating with the cops, so they had to show they were gonna be out of cash).

FD OT was high because the trustees FAILED to replace men who got laid off or retired or passed away. The remaining men left to do the job were working more hours, answering more calls, and doing the jobs of those who were not replaced. Unfortunately, several injuries occurred. What the hell did any of you rocket scientists EXPECT to happen. Then the firemen are made out to be the bad guys?????!!!!!!! Gross.

To top it off, you blame iton the fire chief? WHo do you think is pulling his strings?

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47Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ ubotherme: The contract provides for a regular work period of twenty-one (21) days, during which each firefighter is to work one hundred sixty-eight (168) hours. That’s an average of eight (8) hours a day.

Of the one hundred sixty-eight (168) hours worked (per work period) the first one hundred fifty-nine (159) hours are compensated at the standard hourly rate. The remaining nine (9) is compensated at the FLSA overtime rate. So, on average, for every eight (8) hours worked seven and a half (7.5) are paid at the standard rate and the last half hour (0.5) is paid at the over-time rate. That’s what the contract says anyway. And that’s just the standard work period. Anything beyond one hundred fifty-nine (159) hours worked for a twenty-one (21) day period is paid at the overtime rate.

On reflection I must say you might be right about the interest on the loan. I got my figure from the State Fiscal Analysis. It shows the loan of $3M coming in and $3,180,000 going out, but the $180,000 might include more than just the interest on the loan.

FD OT was high because the Chief insists on ten (10) man per shift. The contract provides for an eight (8) man minimum per shift. Per the contract the Chief has complete control over staffing. But the Trustees are at fault as they could have forced the Chief to accept the eight (8) man minimum provided for in the contract. Lost manpower due to injuries can be covered by a small part-time force. But I also want review the way we do fire prevention and the use of Fire Prevention officers.

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48harleydog(243 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

SkyKing, did you ever read some of the calls that are made to the police dept? These people should be ticketed for wasting the police officers time. Some of the calls that the police HAVE to respond to are ridiculous. The police dept. has better things to do then respond to the idiotic phone calls that they receive.

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49NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Rosati, let's not tell half-truths - that's not much different than telling a fib. When you say the FD averages 8 hours a day, you have to include that that means they average 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, every week, every month, every year. If they averaged 8 hours a day like the 9-5ers do, that would be 40 hours a week, or 120 hours in the same period you admit the FD works 168 hours. 40 hours a week for 52 weeks is 2080 hours. Get your calculator out and check me. I'll wait. Care to guess what the FD works in a year? Yep, 2912 hours. Got that? 2080 hours, versus 2912 hours.

Now, if you want to complain about the staffing, you should really look at OSHA standards, NFPA standards, and a few other guidelines that are accepted as the way things are supposed to work.

Can we expect you to scrutinize the other departments at the same level and with the same intensity, or do you have your sights set on the FD for some reason? All I see out of you so far is that you seem to hate the BFD. Why?

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50apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Go the Austintown route. We don't need the fire department size and cost that we now have. Boardman has almost zero real fires. We don't need to send the big truck out for every fender bender that occurs. It's a tremendous waste of money. ALLBS is obviously a fireman and has a reason for his "support" of the FD. As for actual hours worked, the FD works about 1000 hours a year tops. They might be at the fire station for 2900 hours but washing their own cars, playing cards, watching TV, reading, and posting on the internet hardly count as work.

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51Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ NoBS: OK, I follow you. 9-5res work only 5 days a week and the FD works 7 days a week. But the pay period isn’t weeks, its 21 days. We’re counting days not weeks. And the way the contract reads no one firemen is supposed to work (on average) eight hours every day for seven days every week. That time is spread out over several individuals, unless we’re talk’en additional (extra contractual) OT.

OSHA/NFPA standards are one thing. Contract language is another. The agreement with the union is governed by the contract not by OSHA/NFPA standards. But I understand your concern. Safety is a high priority, but so is getting the budget in line. I’m confident we can do both, we can operate at the highest safety standards and in-budget but we can’t do it without cooperation. And it’s probably going to mean bringing in part-timers at a reduced pay-rate, and maybe re-working the way we do fire prevention. I know this isn’t something the union wants but it seems the best solution under the circumstances. I would certainly like to hear any ideas you may have in this regard.

Yes, you can expect me to scrutinize all departments with an eye towards providing the best service to the community at a cost the budget can sustain. I don’t hate the BFD. I’m focusing on the FD only because the problems there are clear. Too much OT, closing stations, way over budget. We have to work together to get this resolved, and the sooner the better. Are you with me?

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52NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Dakka, you're still not comprehending how the FD works. You really owe it to yourself to go talk to the firefighters. When you say things like "And the way the contract reads no one firemen is supposed to work (on average) eight hours every day for seven days every week. That time is spread out over several individuals, unless we’re talk’en additional (extra contractual) OT." it's obvious you just don't get it. Firefighters in Boardman work an average of 56 hours per week, over the 3-week repeating cycle that 3 shifts working a 7 day week necessitates. They'll work 24 hours every third day, or, in your terms, three 8-hour days back to back. But they don't get weekends off. They work Tuesday and Friday of one week - 48 hours, Monday and Thursday of the second week - 48 hours, and Sunday, Wednesday, and Saturday the third week - 72 hours. Then Tuesday, Friday, and so on. 24 hours on and 48 off. Whether it's Christmas or Tuesday. The Fair Labor Standards Act - Federal law - REQUIRES that firefighters working the 24/48 schedule be paid overtime for anything past 53 hours per week worked. Not after 40 hours per week, like the private sector. You can't simply step in and "force" them to not get that overtime. You've been listening to that idiot apollo, who has a history with Boardman Township - he hates Boardman township employees. He applied to be the township IT person and didn't get the job, which he still complains about 10 years later, yet denies that it bothers him.

What I've mentioned about the hours worked by the firefighters is but one facet of how things work there, things nobody outside the FD evidently understands. More's the pity - the current "leaders" of the township don't understand, either. If you really want to be a good community leader, and not just another political hack with an agenda, you'll talk to the firemen, and LISTEN to what they say. THEN I'll decide if I'm with you or not. Right now, I don't see any realistic solutions to Boardman's problems in any of the candidates.

If you truly don't have any animosity toward the FD, then you're getting bad information from somebody.

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53NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Dakka - I should mention that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not specifically say the firemen MUST be paid OT - they can also accumulate the hours and when they have 24 hours banked they can take a day off. Youngstown FD, for example, does this.

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54apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

ALLBS still thinks I'm mad at the IT fiasco? I'm not even mad I didn't get the job because I'd have had to take a pay cut to perform the menial tasks required of the Boardman IT coord.

What I WAS mad at is the fact it was mis-advertised (Mainframe experience???) by the kooky police chief (why would any entity have the chief of police place the IT ad???) and of the 70 or so resumes they received picked (hand picked???) a neophyte with literally ZERO IT experience and then told the Boardman Reporter newspaper that she was a 15 year IT veteran!!! The comedy never stops in Boardman.

But that is a microcosm of the townships hiring practices. A fired Canfield officer, Gallitto's campaign managers then wife, drunk administrators, an administrator whose experience is making sub sandwiches, financial helpers without accounting degrees, etc. Ask how many friends of the fire departments union chief (Harry Wolfe) are public employees? How many employees with the same last name? The friends and family plan is alive and well in Boardman.

ALLBS is simply another trough feeder fireman trying to save the FD from the inevitable layoffs and conversion to the Austintown model. Maybe even Wolfe himself! Now watch him tell us how Boardman can make 500,000,000,000 with no start up costs by implementing an ambulance service!!! The hilarity never ends in Boardman.

Don’t believe ALLBS Mr. Rosati, I have no agenda and he does. They just don’t like me because I shine the light on their corrupt ways.

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55Gary_R(4 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@NoBS: OK, good, I’m learning. You’re right. For a 21 day period a fireman is “on the clock” for 168 hours. Over that same period a 9-5er is on for 120 hours. But you do get 9 hrs OT for that time. Many salary employees work more then 40 a week and get no OT. I know I work a lot more than 40 a week and get no OT.

But tell me, what do you do during that 24 hour “on-time” period. Are you allowed to sleep? I’m not trying to be cute, just asking. BTW my father was a Fireman. He worked as a Fireman in DC during the Sixties. He said he was “sucking smoke” every day. It can be a tough job, I know.

@ Apollo: I agree, all this talk about “agendas” is distracting. I’m convinced all you want is what’s best for the township. I believe we all do. Frankly I’ve learned a lot from BS in a very short time. So let’s stop the negativity and try to stick to the facts, and discuss ways forward. Speaking of which, the company that handles the township’s computer system says the thing is on the verge of completely crashing. They just submitted a fix that would cost BIG BUCKS (sorry, don’t have the exact numbers in front of me now). Are you aware of this? Any thoughts on the matter?

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56apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yes, Gary, I am aware of the computer issue. I was at that meeting where the company presented the proposal. I'm also very aware of their solution, VMWARE. It sounds like a good thing to do, consolidate 15 (approx) servers running 15 seperate applications into 2-3 servers that VMWARE can divide the boxes into logical partitions, one for each application. Instead of running 15 servers (individual boxes) at say 10% of capacity, you consolidate and run 15 applications on those fewer servers (boxes) at a much higher capacity per server.

That being said, I would also recommend getting more than just one proposal. I'm not sure DRS is giving the best price. Given the financial issues, I'd consider outsourcing the entire IT function to one of the outsourcing companies. You get better service, upgrade cycles for hardware, a help desk, and 24 by 7 support.

It makes zero sense to hire an IT coordinator in Boardman given the financial circumstances and the lack of focus on advanced technologies that seems to permeate the area. Maybe various governmental agencies could share IT resources?

First off, get at least 2 other estimates for the same proposal DRS recommends. The concept is a good one.

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57apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The estimate was around 80,000.

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58Gary_R(4 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ Apollo: Hey man, great stuff! Thanks for the insights. What companies should we solicit for proposals? What outsourcing companies should we consider? Can we get by with just some hardware up-grades, or do we need the new software too?

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59apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The VMWARE software is what permits the partitioning of one physical server into many virtual servers. By consolidating 15 physical servers onto 2-3 servers using VMWARE, you save on server costs, electricity costs, heating and cooling needs, and it's green(er). VM has been around for decades on the mainframe. It stands for Virtual Machine. The big players in outsourcing are CSC, IBM, EDS, and Perot systems. There are a few smaller players who might also be viable candidates and DRS (current proposal) might also be best. Just make sure you solicit RFP's from multiple sources to get the best price. Anything you don't understand, I can clarify on request.

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60apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

This is a good source for more info and a better explanation of virtualization.


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61ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

"Justice" wrote:

It's amazing what the perception is in Boardman. There are currently only 5 patrolmen and 1 supervisor working a shift on any given day. Some days there may be one or two more depending on how the schedule falls but NEVER 15 to 20.

When the new contract is signed in, it will be even less. The police union agreed to ease the burden of minimum staffing to help the township's financial burden so there will only be 4 patrolmen and one supervisor handling the calls and patrolling in their "down time".

I suggest you get your facts straight like I did by talking to some of these police officers or fire fighters. They can't lie about it because it's all public record that can be verified.
Justice, did any of those fine, upstanding officers tell you what a "shift" is?
Did they tell you about overlapping shifts, where many more officers are scheduled during peak call times?
Did they tell you about how they tell dispatchers to sit on calls even when there are plenty of patrolmen available to respond?
Did they tell you the number of patrolmen and supervisors (supposedly 5 total) are far outnumbered by the number of sworn personnel working in several other divisions of the PD? (such as detectives, undercover, etc.)
Why do you think they can put so many cruisers on the road at a time?
When I tell you there are 15 - 20 patrolmen working per day, take that number and divide by 24 hours in each day (.625 - .833). Then take the FD: say, 8 - 10 FF working per day. Divide that by 24 hours (.333 - .416). Who has the higher number?
Or, put another way:
PD has at a minimum, 5 on patrol every 8 hours. If they only had 3-8hour shifts (which isn't necessarily the case), that would be 15 per day (minimum).
The FD has, at MOST, 10 for their 24 hour shifts. Divide that by 3-8hour shifts, that would be 3.33 FF per 8-hour shift.
Get it?

And, the two jobs are entirely different. PD answers many calls of a non-emergent nature. They do take reports, investigate things that may have already occurred, and take reports on the fender-benders amongst many, many, many calls for service. And they do respond to emergencies occasionally.
The FD, on the other hand, responds MOSTLY to emergencies. Fires, hazards, and medical emergencies require IMMEDIATE response. The FD doesn't have the luxury of telling customers, "We'll be there as soon as we can to take that report."
Finally, how come it's OK to see cruisers sitting in parking lots for hours, but firemen are berated for watching TV or getting some sleep during a 24 hour shift?
Would it be better to require firemen to stay awake for their entire 24 hour shifts?
I would bet the firefighters would be glad to switch to a regular 40-hour week, working 8 or 10 hours per day! (But, shhhhhhh. . . . .Don't tell anyone, the Township is getting FAR too good a deal with the current schedule!!!!!!)

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62ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

"Apollo" wrote:

Ask how many friends of the fire departments union chief (Harry Wolfe) are public employees? How many employees with the same last name? The friends and family plan is alive and well in Boardman.

ALLBS is simply another trough feeder fireman trying to save the FD from the inevitable layoffs and conversion to the Austintown model. Maybe even Wolfe himself! Now watch him tell us how Boardman can make 500,000,000,000 with no start up costs by implementing an ambulance service!!!

Please stop. You're embarrassing yourself. Again.
You actually cannot give more of a black eye to the FD than Leicht or any trustees have already done.
Now, you stoop to the level of saying the firefighters union president is SO strong, he can get people jobs? Or are you saying he was hired by trustees who KNEW he was already the union president? Are you really that stupid???? Don't answer that. You'll only further embarrass yourself.
Let me assure you: If the firefighters union president had THAT much "steam", uhhhhh.......the FD would NOT be in the crosshairs right now.

Regarding the FD running providing an ambulance.....probably not the greatest use of firefighters,BUT they were asked to come up with ideas to save / make money (cuz, u know, THAT's what government is supposed to do...MAKE money....)
They saved money, took pay freezes, offered to run an ambulance, and STILL are taking a beating.
I would tell you to go pound salt.

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63NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Rosati, I'm done here. The 'signal-to-noise ratio' here is not worth the effort. Just notice who feels the need to resort to juvenile tactics such as name-calling, and who simply tells it like it is. Feel free to talk to any of the township employees - in fact, what kind of leader WOULDN'T get to know the people who actually do the work?

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64SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

ubotherme- you bother us all. The point most of us are trying to make is that the township cannot run on business as usual.

I have no axe to grind with the fire dept. They are very professional and do a fine job. The problem is that we cannot, as a township continue to run the deficits we have been which means things have to be run more efficiently.

Under Dorman, the fire dept has run up large amounts of overtime do to his staffing requirements. This is NOT the fault of the firefighters. He is management. The rub is that other depts, such as Austintown, who cover approximately the same size area as Boardman, has a budget about half the size of Boardman's and they use part-time and volunteers firefighters to supplement their full time staff-we do not.

If Dorman went to the trustees and said something like- "I have been studying the manpower issue and if we cut the full time personnel to say 24 and supplemented that with 18 part-time and 8 volunteer firefighters, we could provide the same services, keep all three stations open and eliminate most of the overtime problem. And the savings in overtime and benefits would be $ X per year. " That would be showing some type of leadership and the citizens would not be so outraged.

I'm certain the Firefighters union would not be too pleased by the elimination of the full time positions, but it could eliminate the layoffs and station closings we have been experiencing.

(The numbers above are for illustrative purposes only.)

Also, I would not expect the men to not sleep during their entire 24 hour shift as that would be inhumane. Maybe though if they worked 12 hour shifts, no one would have anything to criticize as there would be no need to sleep.

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65SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Harleydog- You're right. Some of those calls are absolutely ridiculous and a total waste of time. Fortunately, even with those BS calls, they still have one of the best response times in the entire area.

Ubotherme- You said it correctly- the police and fire dept handle completely different types of calls, and yes, some are just to file reports, etc. We used to have an officer at the police dept to handle this kind of routine paperwork, now they have to call someone in off patrol to do it. Also, I can't remember the last time a firefighter was involved in a shooting, and I am very glad of this, just as I can't remember the last time a police officer was overcome by smoke- so you are right, their jobs are very different.

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66jr99(101 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The pd's three (3) shifts are 6am-2pm, 2pm-10pm, and 10pm-6am. There's no overlapping there. And to say the pd answers calls of a "non-emergent" ("emergent"- we must be making up words as we go along) nature is like saying "I live with my head up my ass, and I enjoy it". Feel free to do a ride-along some time. You're allowed.

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67apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yes, Wolfe has the power to get people jobs. Not just with the Boardman FD!!!

Sky King also hit the nail on the head above. Dorman should propose something like that. Problem is, Dorman is more concerned with keeping the union happy than keeping the township solvent.

If the FD was in the cross hairs, the move to a an Austintown FD model would already be happening and all that ridiculous OT wouldn't be breaking the bank.

The ambulance service is a losing proposition whose ONLY purpose is to protect the FD union members. Make them more valuable and less likely to go the Austintown FD route. Making idiotic claims that there is little or no start up costs and that it can make 500,000 dollars a year paying much more than the private sector ambulance services who are struggling to remain viable. (and one already went belly up) Anyone who buys this scam, I've got some Florida real estate for you.

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68countyscoop(22 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Fire Chief Dorman is more interested in getting his 1/2 million dollars in the drop program rather than retiring or doing his job. How many Fridays does he take off?

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69apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, that drop program is a nice sweet giveaway that needs eliminated. I'm guessing most of the public doesn't know anything about it. If only the taxpayers knew how many millions of dollars are going to be needed to fund the outlandish pensions and health care for people retiring in their 50's and who are likely to live into their 80's or more. No wonder the township and other governmental entities are broke.

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70rex(65 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

According to the Vindicator point of view, we should have elected more republicans in the national election because that party was more familiar with the problems facing this country because they had been in power for 8 years.

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71ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

"jr99" wrote:
The pd's three (3) shifts are 6am-2pm, 2pm-10pm, and 10pm-6am. There's no overlapping there. And to say the pd answers calls of a "non-emergent" ("emergent"- we must be making up words as we go along) nature is like saying "I live with my head up my ass, and I enjoy it". Feel free to do a ride-along some time. You're allowed.
How do YOU know what the shifts are? I maintain they have some overlapping shifts.
Maybe non-emergent was the wrong word. If I had said they answer many calls of a non-emergency nature, would you be satisfied? It's true. Try to get the quote right next time.
I don't need to do a ride along with police or fire. I am well aware of what they do.

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72ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

To "sky king" and rosati:
If part timers and volunteers are such a great idea, why not have them in the police department too? There's way more room to cut from the PD, so replace them with part timers!

I wonder if your employers would like me to volunteer to do your jobs??? They could cut your positions and save alot of money!
Imagine, part time teachers, part time cops, call-out road department workers--only when it snows or when a sign needs replaced....

And some people have the nerve to say they have no axe to grind against the FD. HA!

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73Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ Apollo: Hey man, don’t know if you know but at the meeting yesterday the trustees tabled a motion to adopt DRS’s $80,000.00 bid and asked the Police Chief to solicit other bids. It was all because of your girl Miller. Maybe you should contact the Chief and give him some tips on how to proceed. I’m sure he would appreciate any assistance you could give him in this regard.

@ rex: Exactly my point.

@ ubotherme: Well, of course if my employer thought he could save money with part-timers and volunteers he wouldn’t be waiting for you to “volunteer”, he would just do it. I certainly couldn’t stop him (no employment contract). The township, however, can’t “just do it” because of the contract with the union. Question is, when the contract comes up for re-negotiation will YOU stand in the way of the township saving money? If so, why?

I have no axe to grind against the FD. I do have an ax to grind against unnecessary OT. HA!

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74apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah Gary, I heard. A good move. They should never just spend $80,000 without getting competitive bids even if the money comes from the chiefs pocket. (I'll bet if the chief WAS paying he'd get bids)

Miller is the ONLY one of the trustees who has ever questioned spending. That's why I've been on her side. It's also why she is attacked mercilessly on here by obvious township employees who are trying to protect their wages, benefits, health care, and pensions.

I would be happy to help the township solicit bids from other outsourcing providers. They could easily use the DRS proposal as a basis for an RFP. (request for proposal) Finding outsourcing companies is easy. Like I said before, IBM, CSC, Perot, EDS, and other companies are all over the place.

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75ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Well, Gary, FYI, they had volunteers for a long time. There were many problems with them, not the least of which was the fact that ANYONE could volunteer. Some couldn't even pass a basic written exam or physical agility test (the same ones full-time firemen have to pass)!!! Yet, they were expected and allowed to do the same jobs alongside the full-timers. THAT'S real safe, huh?

When the Township had a study of the FD 10 years ago, it recommended trying to get more volunteers and paying them $30/hour. It also said if they weren't able to get enough on board, to disband the organization as it would not be worth having.
They tried to recruit, got a handful, kept the program in place, wasted alot of time, money and energy on them and got NOTHING for them except the ability to say, "Hey, look, we have these guys over here who are cheap help, so we don't have to have too many full-time guys." The Township then, as now, couldn't care less about getting the job done right.

By the way, you should read the Tri Data report. It's an eye-opener even based on the standards in place at that time. It recommended additional fire stations, more firefighters, providing better emergency medical care, putting programs in place to better serve our community. The FD is actually going backward.

Your last statement says it all. What you have determined to be "unnecessary OT" does not even the come CLOSE to putting enough firefighters on duty. It puts a few trucks on the road, with 2 or maybe 3 guys on each. What a shame for this community. (overtime is no issue any longer due to the fact that they just close fire stations rather than try to keep them open with OT)

You can spin it however you want. The fact is, whether the job gets done is a matter of your point of view. The FD mitigates hazards of all kinds. Whether the job gets done depends entirely on putting enough properly trained firemen at the scene in as quickly as possible. Some of you seem more than willing to sacrifice the welfare of our community for the almighty dollar. By the way, there are plenty of dollars--it's a matter of moving them into the FD budget and not hiding them. These are dollars voters have paid to maintain their safety forces. But now, the administration and many of you who are running for trustee are threatening to further compromise our safety.

Whoever is giving you your info is doing you a huge disservice. Have you ever stepped foot into a Boardman fire station or attempted to find out another perspective?

Your father was a fireman? You should know better than to minimze the job.

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76NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

ubotherme, Rosati has shown by how he processes the information he's been given that, despite his lip service to the contrary, he's got the FD squarely in his cross-hairs. It's not for one moment about saving money, because there are so many glaring examples of waste in other departments, and in the administration itself. But not a peep about any of those - and when I tried to help him understand, first of all he disregarded OSHA and NFPA standards as if they're just papers written by some grade school kids or something, and every question since then has had the underlying theme of "how can I take a shot at the FD?" Otherwise, why on earth would he even bring up things like whether the FD is allowed to sleep at the stations while they're there for a 24 hours shift? *IF* his father really was a full-time firefighter, he'd know that, so why bring it up at all if not to further try to smear the FD?

Rosati clearly has a hard-on for the fire department, and ONLY the fire department, and he is aligning himself with anybody he perceives as feeling the same way. He's probably getting his info from Leicht, who can't add 2 and 2 and come up with 4 twice in a row.

Why does Leicht need an assistant? Ann Taylor never had one. Why does Loree need an assistant? Neither Seditz nor Schaal had one. There, I just pointed out how to save more than $100K. But no, let's get rid of the people who save lives.

And the icing on the cake is Rosati is actually taking advice from Johnson, who makes statements like:

apollo (606 comments)posted 1 day, 12 hours ago

Yes, Wolfe has the power to get people jobs. Not just with the Boardman FD!!!

If Rosati buys that - and he must, because he never questioned it - I sure don't want him to lead any place I live!

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77apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, Gary, taking the word of me, who has no agenda and no reason to lie is wrong and taking the advice of firemen with agendas and reasons to mislead is good! This is why the township is bankrupt. As you can see above, they don't even believe the township is broke even though the STATE not LEICHT said so.

ALLBS consistently posts false information. He attacks anyone who wants to cut Boardman employees compensation.

Austintowns volunteer department works very well. Boardman's FD members are just afraid that it will cost jobs of their membership.

All of them think the taxpayers have bottomless pockets.

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78ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

You do have an agenda, you just won't admI.T. I.T.

The state did NOT say Boardman is broke. They studied only the figures LeI.chT. gave them, and they only looked at the general fund. LeI.chT. and the trustees have been steadily spending the general fund dry. How else do you explain the SURPLUS cash in the safety forces levy-specifically the FD's portion? Oh, you can't admI.T. the money's there because Leicht won't admI.T. I.T.'s there.

The taxpayers don't have bottomless pockets. They DID, however, pass a safety forces levy, which they were led to believe would restore their protection.

They were lied to, as you have been.

I'm not sure ANY volunteer department would be sufficient for Boardman. I listened the other day to a neighboring community's volunteers trying to get another neighboring community's volunteers to bring the jaws-of-life to a bad traffic accident in the middle of a weekday afternoon. It took over 20 minutes to get help to those poor victims, and their towns have nowhere near the amount of traffic problems that Boardman has. Is THAT what you want for Boardman?

Austintown is NOT Boardman. Not even close. If you want to compare the two, though, why aren't you advocating volunteer cops for Boardman? There would be quite a savings, and we could be just like Austintown. My, what lofty goals you have.

By the way, can you point out one job the union president has gotten for somebody?

NoBS is right about the assistants to the administrator and the clerk. I would go a step further and ask why on Earth the trustees feel the need to have an administrator in the first place. We elected THEM to do the job. In hirng an administrator, they are screaming they CAN'T OR WON'T DO THEIR JOBS!

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79apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Gary, these people think I'm mad about not getting the old IT position. Nothing could be further from the truth. It would have been a huge step backwards for me both professionally and financially. I never would have taken it after finding out what it really entailed which should have been IN THE AD. However it did open my eyes to such things as:

The old police chief dusted off the old IT ad from his Florida days and used it rather than actually creating an ad relevant for Boardman. So Boardman advertised for mainframe experience, programming experience, supervisory experience, and many other things that Boardman certainly didn't need. They also advertised it as "salary commensurate with experience" even though they really wanted to pay 40K. That bogus ad is the ONLY reason I applied. Had I known the truth, I would never had given it a second look. These township employees are simply mad that I am now a watchdog. Blame Pattersons stupidity on creating a watchdog. As well as unneeded substations and lease, CALEA, cooked clearance, hiring fired Canfield officer who later embarrass the township and are arrested.

Yeah, volunteer police make sense in these FD minds. How idiotic.

There are almost ZERO, yes that's right ZERO real fires in Boardman and a mostly volunteer FD makes fabulous fiscal sense.

As for Wolfe, Ask the OTC.

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80ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I hafta ask:

What's the OTC you referred to?

I admI.T., I.T., If that's computer main-frame lingo, I'm not up on I.T.

Would you please enLeI.ghT.en me?

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81SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Foxtrot- I read the postings at you hyperlinks, but they are just one or 2 peoples' opinions. Can't you think for your self?

Ubotherme & AllBS- you 2 seem to know what is going on with the FD and you seem to think that we know nothing- What is your solution to the overtime problem and the fact that we can't afford to hire any more people? I want to hear solutions, not finger pointing!

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82SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

No one is suggesting that we go with an ALL volunteer fire dept. Most townships have at least Some volunteers on their fire dept and they work out just fine to supplement the regular fire fighters. It ;s my understanding the some of our regular employees started out as volunteers and when openings became available they applied for and obtained the positions. I have also heard, and correct me if I am wrong, the regular firefighters refused to train with the volunteers, which led to the problem that they could not work as a team.

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83ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

First, I don't think you know nothing. You know one side of the story.

One simple solution would be to have trustees allocate the money that IS coming in to basic safety services.
When they allow Leicht to run the show, he seems to hide money. I don't know what he's doing with it, but it's sure not being spent on what taxpayers want.

For example, NO ONE asked for that ridiculously overdone fire station on South Ave. That's a joke and it's costing more money to operate than it should and it's far more than what was needed. Ask any fireman and they'll tell you the same thing. It was a waste.

The focus is NOT on services (which is exactly and ONLY what government needs to provide). There should be enough fire and policemen providing the protection for our community. The firefighters who respond to your medical emergency ought to be allowed and EXPECTED to function to the level of paramedic (the accepted standard of care for our nation only for the last 40 years) and not as first responders who are at the mercy of a for-profit ambulance company to send paramedic care.

In this community, our firemen ought to be able to have a partner when they enter a burning building and not have to wait for another truck or two to get there. And it happens more than they let you know.

Boardman is NOT poor. Don't be mislead by Leicht and the rest of them. The fact of the matter is they LIE and they get away with it because most people are apathetic. The employees know better because it's our business to know better. They use the poor economy and foreclosures to get your sympathy but neither has really affected Boardman to the point that they need to take such drastic action as closing down fire stations or sitting on police calls for hours on end.

I believe if there was any morsel of trust between the employees and the administration, there would be progress here. The fact is, there is no trust. Do you know how hard it is to work for people who don't know what you do and couldn't care less about anything other than advancing themselves even if it's at your expense?

I know. That's part of the job, but it really is a shame how the FD has taken the brunt of this attack.

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84ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

alot of what you've said is true, but:

what "works out just fine"? again, a matter of perspective.

would you like to train people to do your job? and how can you train to work with people who can simply choose not to show up when the shiite hits the fan?

Face it. It's not about providing service. It's about doing it half-arsed and on the cheap while HOPING nothing bad happens.

Again, if part timers and vollys are such a great idea, let's have them do your job too!

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85NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

SkyKing, have I disrespected you in any way? The fact that you feel free to do so to me says much about your personality, and the fact that you think I work for the BFD and you act like you do says more about you. I expect it from Johnson - he hates township employees, and anybody who disagrees with him on his hate-rants is automatically a township employee in his book. Don't take my word for it - scroll back and look for yourself in the months gone by. He was sure I work for the PD when I stood up for them a while back, in the discussion forums - he even threatened to tell the chief on me for posting in here when he ASSUMED I was at work. I did not lose any sleep over that. I've also been accused over the course of my postings on Vindy.com of being a Boardman Road Department worker, a Girard firefighter, a Girard cop, a Lordstown worker, and more. Not all by Johnson, but that's how he thinks. Do you see a common denominator? I'm pro-union.

Now, I did show how the township could save more than $100K per year. Ubotherme is right in everything he's said. Those OSHA requirements that Rosati pooh-poohs? They REQUIRE four firefighters to be on the scene before anybody enters a burning house - even to rescue anybody. That's the law. When you see the first fire truck arrive and not do much until the second truck gets there, that's why. Thank your trustees - don't blame the firefighters. The trustees, and people like Rosati, insist on making cuts where they shouldn't be made, because they don't know any better, and, worse, they won't listen to the people who do.

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86SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@NoBS, My apologies if I offended you, not my intent. You may be pro-union and that's your right. At one time I was a union member, too. Thank you for the above info that I was not aware of.

@ubotherme- A lot of the points you've raised are valid -except continually blaming Leicht and saying he is hiding money. The fiscal officer cannot, by law, spend money without the approval of the trustees- remember the Columbus legal bill?

Also, every audit that the township has had over the last several years have found the books to be in order. So let's put that argument in the garbage can where is belongs.

Now my question- Many businesses hire part-time employeesto supplement their full time staff. Why can Boardman not hire "qualified" part-time firefighters to supplement its full-time staff, limit the overtime and keep all three stations open? If the township could hire the additional manpower through the use of part-time employees, this should address the OSHA concerns you have raised. These part time employees could fill the slots of full time positions as people retire or are on sick leave unitl those employees return to work.

Also, a small staff of qualified volunteer firefighters could be used for weekends and during periods when the fire dept handles a higher volume of calls.
That's my opinion- tell me what is wrong with that rationale. And BTW, the police dept does work 3 shifts- 6-2;2-10;10-6. I have several of them as clients so I know their work schedules.

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87SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme- I re-read your last post and there is one other item you mentioned that I feel needs addressed- regarding training people.

Over the years I have trained many people to do a variety of jobs. I must be missing something here.

If you are thinking that you are training someone to replace you, that's one thing. But training someone to be a good partner and to watch out for dangerous situations- that's your job. It could also be your own life you are saving. Think back- Who trained you? Some one took you under their wing and showed you the ropes and that is in any profession. We all have a duty to help people learn something or the day is wasted.

One final point- and I know you will agree with me on this. Whenever the government does not have the money to pay for NON-essential services, the residents WILL ALWAYS be faced with a levy to pay for ESSENTIAL SERVICES! This is why Batwoman & Robyn have got to go!

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88Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ ubotherme & NoBS:

“Why can Boardman not hire "qualified" part-time firefighters to supplement its full-time staff, limit the overtime and keep all three stations open? If the township could hire the additional manpower through the use of part-time employees, this should address the OSHA concerns you have raised. These part time employees could fill the slots of full time positions as people retire or are on sick leave until those employees return to work.

Also, a small staff of qualified volunteer firefighters could be used for weekends and during periods when the fire dept handles a higher volume of calls.”

That’s my question too (and many others). We have a serious budget crisis in Boardman. Those who say Leicht is hiding money and lying about the budget are wrong. (Where’s the proof?). We can get the budget in line, comply with OSA standards, AND reduce OT at the BFD with part-timers. If ShyKing and I (and many others) are wrong in this belief, show us why.

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89apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Hey King, ALLBS is just mad that I am now the township watchdog. They liked it better when THEY ran the township without any oversight. Spending freely and generously for those sweet wages and benefits that many in the private sector can only dream of. They don't like open and transparent government. They like the opaque, behind the scenes kind better. That's why they didn't want Miller watching those negotiating sessions and fought hard to prevent it.

Things like 2 men in a truck, minimum staffing whose sole purpose is to generate OT, and many other sweet giveaways. There is no justification for many of that bullcrap contract language but they make things up anyways to try feebly to justify it.

As you can see above, they still don't believe the financial problems exist! Guys who can barely add 2 and 2 are better accountants than Leicht!

They think I am mad over not getting a job that pays 1/3 of what I make now and the skill set needed for Boardman's IT needs can be found in many middle schools. Yet they even take the time to capitalize the IT in the posting above. If that isn't juvenile, I don't know what is and these are our best of the best overpaid township employees? Most of them are unemployable outside the public sector.

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90apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The township is broke, fiscal watch will happen soon, emergency will happen in 2010, and then the state will dictate spending. The taxpayers are unlikely to pass another levy. The golden trough will soon end.

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91apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The funny thing Gary is that everything I've been saying for 5 years has shown itself to be true. The clearance that Patterson claimed (50%) was cooked to make his department look better and get better raises. Not one other department nationwide calculated clearance that his way.

The substation that I said was a waste is now closed. Are we still paying for it? How about all the cost of bringing that up and the overpaid lease that Patterson said was the perfect location?

2 men per truck, 4 hours per court appearance, minimum staffing, 38 vacation days for senior people, 11 holidays, take home cars, minimal health care contributions, raises far above the inflation rate, pensions the envy of the working world including some entirely funded by the taxpayers at 24% of the wage, and on and on. Spending that was inevitable to put the township into this mess. Started years ago and Miller was the only one who raised a red flag.

The problem Gary is most trustees use the job as a paid hobby to the tune of 20,000 a year plus health care. They don't do their job as taxpayer advocates and their entire focus is on getting reelected or finding their next taxpayer supported job.

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92apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Foxtrot the myth that higher wages gets us better people in Boardman is false and overused. Austintown's employees are as good if not better than Boardman's. I don't recall seeing 3 Austintown officers resigning for illegal or other reasons and Austintown has more crime/fires than Boardman. Austintown doesn't need 2 men per plow either.

The problem isn't the lack of an income tax, it's the overspending of past trustees. Check the audit, we are paying way too much for services base entirely on the truck loads of inheritance money than flowed in.

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93harleydog(243 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Too cheap to pass a levy??? Wasn't that done just last year to hire fire and police and what did we get. One police officer and a fire station that closes at the will of the Fire Chief. He needs to go Leicht needs to go and the Trustees, whoever gets elected or re-elected need to be held accountable for their spending. Someone needs to find a way to legally void the contracts and re-negotiate them into reality. Boardman is becoming the new Southside of Youngstown and the thieves and crackheads know it.

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94apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Boardman workers are some of the highest paid in the state of Ohio. Yet we get fired Canfield child molesters? There are a handful of cops making over 100,000 a year, more than many lawyers. Boardman's employees get to retire in their 50's with full pensions and nice health care.

The average cost of each and every Boardman employee is right around $100,000 far more than most jobs in Ohio. The average salary (just salary) of the BPD is $80,000. Way more than most Boardman workers make. The median household income in Boardman is $60,000 tops. That's the income of ALL wage earners in a household. The audit says we are paying $20,000 more per employee than peer communities.

The township simply needs to get personnel costs under control and quit giving away every dime they take in for compensation.

Incorporating isn't the solution. More taxes is NOT the solution. The solution is living within their means. Trustees willing to tell the unions NO! No more free health care. (and 10% isn't the answer either) No more 2 men per truck. No more 38 days vacation. No more take home cars. No more minimum staffing requirements.

Public employees aren't immune to the economic forces that the rest of us have to deal with.

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95NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Rosati - see why I'm done offering suggestions? See why I said the 'signal-to-noise ratio' here was too high?

I'll leave you with one thing to think about, if you can get past all Johnson's noise and your own apparent prejudices.

The ambulance. Have you read the proposal the firemen made to the township? No? Then how can you dismiss it as you have done? Is that responsible leadership?

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96apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I read the proposal Gary. It's a great piece of fiction. The numbers are total fabrications. Private sector ambulance services in the area are barely making it and Boardman's finest can somehow deliver ambulance service profitably with employees making way more than the private ambulance service employees? Start up costs would be easily in the $250,000 or more range no matter what the "proposal" says. The supposed 500,000 "profits" obviously came from thin air.

Remember when Austintown tried to charge people for their services at accidents? How did that work out?

Simple common sense would tell you that it isn't feasible. But, common sense isn't in great quantities at the township. Lack of it provides for wasteful and worthless substations, cars for tots, $200,000 CALEA certifications, cooked clearance, bogus IT ads, ad nauseum.

The noise ALLBS is referring to is the noise from people holding the township responsible to the taxpayers, something he as a public employee doesn't like.

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97NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

All right, here's one nugget to show what a complete idiot Johnson is. Pay attention, Johnson!


Now, Johnson, don't you feel (even more) stupid?

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98NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

It's getting more work out of existing employees - I'd think people like Johnson would be all for it! (which is why I say his hatred for township employees overshadows all else.)

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99SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@NoBS- I have a question for you. If the fire dept is short staffed now and this is the reason for all the overtime- where are we going to get the people to run the ambulance? I assume that we would need 2 people per shift to man it and, as you pointed out earlier, OSHA regs state that 4 firefighters need to be on the scene to enter a burning structure. If 2 men are out on a traffic call or answering a medical emergency call, who will be driving the firetrucks to the structure fire?

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100SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@Foxtrot- It has nothing to do with people not being willing to pay for services. Here's what happens if Boardman were to incorporate:

1) Mayor
2) City Council
3) Law Dept
4) Court
5) Finance (Tax) dept
6) etc, etc

All things that we do not have to pay for now and we would have to pay for these in addition to the safety forces and administrative employees we already have.

Further, if Boardman were to incorporate, the City of Youngstown could still try and annex part ot it, such as the area North of 224. No Thank you!

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101SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@Apollo, I know you are a Miller supporter, and I respect your right to do that. I have a problem with both her and Robyn and for the reason you mentioned in one of your earlier posts- the $20,000 part-time hobby with hospitalization benefits.

When Kathy comes to a meeting, she never seems to have the slightest clue as to what is going on. She supposedly meets with the Fiscal Officer on a regular basis and still says she doesn't understand the budgeting process ( and this is after she went back to college to get a Masters in Public Administration) and she says she is for certain things and then votes against them with they come up for a vote. She may have her reasons for the Nay vote but she never seems to be able to explain them to the voters.

As far as Robyn goes, it would take way more than the 3000 character limit to explain all the reasons she needs to go, but then I think its been pretty well covered by the majority of the posters already.

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102ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

why not part time police?

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103apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

There goes ALLBS with his flawless logic about already having the employees on the payroll. Well, what we need is less employees on the payroll. King also pointed out the flaw in ALLBS's logic. We would need MORE employees to meet the ambulance staffing requirements. But that IS the reason for the FD proposing that fiction anyway, create MORE jobs for firemen and make themselves MORE important than the cops.

King, call Kathy. She will be glad to clarify any questions you have and possibly explain her "confusion" when it comes to Leicht and the budgeting. Leicht couldn't even explain the 3 million dollar loan entry the state made.

I've talked to her many times. She's readily accessible to anyone. Maybe once every couple of months I meet her and John for breakfast. She'll even admit that some of her decisions weren't correct. (Loree for example)

She's a very bright lady contrary to what the township employees want anyone to believe. She wanted to sit in on those contract negotiations and Costello and Mancini fought that. Why? Wouldn't you think that transparency in government is better? What were they hiding? She also is the point person for the flooding issues. I'll also guarantee that she spends more time working as trustee than any of the recent trustees.

ALLBS is a fireman and has an agenda. He is simply trying to prevent the township from going to the Austintown model. Trying to fabricate some fictitious profitability of an ambulance service. Kind of like the fabulous CALEA, that Boardman spent hundreds of thousands on was going to save us tons on insurance premiums. When the premiums came due after CALEA certification, we save less than $100. What a smart expenditure that was!

Forget about incorporation. What we don't need is to become a city at this size. Then you create a much larger governmental structure. What we need is more cooperation between the suburbs. The water district is a start.

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104apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Foxtrot, I pay nearly 50% of my income to various taxing entities. What is a fair percentage for my community?

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105ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Leicht DOES hide money. How else does it happen that people pay taxes, the County sends their money to Boardman and the Township has it on their records, BUT it's not appropriated to the safety forces?

Go ahead Einsteins, tell me how.

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106ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

FYI, for-profit ambulance companies are doing just fine. Theonly one to close up was the one whose owners were embezzling and defrauding.

Otherwise there are two companies who share the runs in Boardman, plus at least two or more who are begging to have a share.

Ya, there's no money to be made in Boardman.

AdmI.T. I.T., Johnson,
You can't think for yourself either.
Maybe you should be a trustee too.

Or a fire chief!

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107apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

I should be trustee. I'd be an advocate for the taxpayers instead of for myself or the township employees. I don't need the health care coverage. I'd tell the truth rather than lie like so many of you township employees. I'd work to get the compensation in line with peer communities. I'd also be able to improve the township's pathetic website. Post the salaries there all the time like they should be rather than on my website. Let the community know about all the great perks that the unions get that the taxpayers don't. But I doubt the employees would endorse me!!! They'd work their butts off to defeat me because I tell to much of the inner corruption. The substation, cooked clearance numbers, take home cars, 38 vacation days, 4 hours for court appearances, 2 men per truck, 11 paid holidays, sweet retirements and health care. It's not public service anymore. It's public rip off.

Yeah, ubutthead, I want that IT position at 1/3 of my current salary so I can take a huge step backwards technically and financially. Hilarious.

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108apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The water district will succeed. Count on it.

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109ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

you are unable to contest my accurate points.

yes, you should be a sorry-arsed trustee.

just stick to your same tired arguments and ignore the facts. refuse to consider the truths that surround you.

after seeing how you bash township employees, i find it funny that you would even mention the possibility of not getting their support or endorsement.

Actually, can you even name on etrustee whose gotten an employees' union endorsement?

This oughtta be good. I'll see where you get your wrong info from.

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110SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme- you didn't answer an honest question I posed to you regarding the fire dept, but OK-why not some part-time police officers too, to supplement their ranks?

@Foxtrot- now I know you have your head in your back pocket! Let's have a little lesson in government here:

1) IF Boardman would decide to incorporate, Youngstown, which is already a city would have the right to annex part of it- the part north of 224. By state law they can already do it if they weren't afraid of having their city hall burned to the ground and every city official running for their lives. You may remember the fire fight which almost took place over annexing the one parcel of land they took for the Burger King next to the old Newport theatre location. Try taking Half of Boardman.

2) Those of us that have Youngstown city water already pay a 40% surcharge for that privilige.

3)If the trustees agreed to the JEDD idea, only the residents living North of 224 would be subjected to the tax, whatever the amount. You would then see 3 bodies hanging from the parking lot lights at the township building.

4) you now have choices for your electric, gas and telephone suppliers. Did anyone come and dig up your yard to put in new pipes or string new phone lines or electric wires if you chose another utility? At one time these were ALL natural monopolies- they are not anymore. The same thing COULD happen to the water companies.

5) Youngstown's water source is Lake Meander. Maybe you should look at a map and see where it is located. I can assure you it is not in Youngstown. Maybe Austintown should put a BIG VALVE at the exit of the lake and tell Youngstown, "If you want your water you half to split the income with us 75/25"- 75% to Austintown and see how Jay W likes them apples.

6) Girard had to give its approval to the land deal with Youngstown because Girard is already a sovereign municipality and the land in question was within its city limits. The majority of V&M facilities were already in Youngstown, so the company made the request.

One other thing- Why should I have to pay 1% of my income to the city if Youngstown just because they hooked their water lines to my neighborhood. I receive no other services from them- crap, they can't even take care of what the ARE responsible for!

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111SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme- We used to have 4 ambulance services here-Pellin, Gold Cross, Lane and Rural-Metro. Now we only have two- Lane & Rural-Metro. If the ambulance business is such a money maker why did 2 of them go Bankrupt and I know they do not pay the wages and benefits that the fire fighters receive?

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112Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ NoBS: Yeah, I read the ambulance proposal, and everything else I could find on the subject. Sorry, I’m not convinced it will turn a profit. More and more people are going without insurance, and the proposal is that we would not seek collections from township residents. That’s different from the “For-Profits”. Besides, the start-up costs are prohibitive. Maybe if we had some extra cash lying around it might be something to consider. But to do it now, with the township going into the new year in deficit, it would be irresponsible to gamble with taxpayers’ funds on such a venture. (Funny thing is, when we had the money, the unions insisted we paid it out in increased salaries and benefits).

If “BOARDMAN TOWNSHIP ALREADY HAS ALL THE EMPLOYEES THEY NEED”, then why all the OT? How can we get “more work out of existing employees” without paying even more OT? Like SkyKing said, “If the fire dept is short staffed now and this is the reason for all the overtime- where are we going to get the people to run the ambulance?” And what about those OSHA regs, if they apply to the firefighters would they also apply to the Ambulance Service Workers?

BTW, could you give a link to the OSHA regs you have referred to.


@ ubotherme: I’m not opposed to part time policemen.

As to the ambulance service, if you’re so convinced it will be profitable, why not start your own company. Get some investors, mortgage your house, take out a loan, and start it up. Or do you only gamble with taxpayer’s money?

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113SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Foxtrot - you are so full of crap. I can see exactly where you are coming from- find more ways to steal money from the taxpayers who already pay enough out!

When inflation hits EVERYBODY suffers, not just the gov't employees.

You and Nancy Pelosi would make great bedfellows!

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114apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Again, the ambulance proposal is pure fiction, plain and simple. Just as CALEA saving thousands in insurance dollars turned out to be fiction just like I told you it would. Just like the substation would fail like I said it would.

You're right King, foxtrot just wants more ways to extract even more dollars from us taxpayers. I guess 50% of my income just isn't enough to satisfy the insatiable appetite from the public sector. I should fund their retirements at 50 even though I can't retire until 67.

Nobody is requesting the township's employees to accept "substandard" wages and benefits. What we are asking is for them to not have golden wages and benefits far beyond what us taxpayers are getting. Once again, they are making some of the highest wages of any public employees in the state, $20,000 more per employee than peers. All predicated on that inheritance money that is unstable. A poor way to run a township.

Just got a letter from the power broker of Boardman, Sonny Smith. He wants us to vote for the worthless Costello who is the main cause of this financial mess. Funny too, that the letter was signed by Costello's partner in crime, Elaine Mancini. Also signing was Fred Davis who got a nice sweet real estate deal for the substation property and Tom Carney, Elaine's boss.

Anyone buying this tainted group, gets what they deserve, more financial problems.

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115Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ foxtrot: I think I’m unique as the only candidate to offer a plan on the revenue side. Even before I became a candidate I suggested starting a towing service. As compared to the ambulance service there’s less start-up cost, less liability exposure, more secure revenue source, and less personnel expense. (You don’t see any tow companies going bankrupt do you? Quite the opposite!).

BTW I’m not a wealthy individual and I pay my fair share of taxes. All unions need to understand that many people in the community have lost a significant portion of their incomes and have been force you to work "on the cheap". Public employees should not be immune from the economic downturn. Wages and benefits need to be brought in line with our budgetary reality.

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116ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Anyone who is aware of the ambulance proposal would know the start-up costs can be deferred a year. This gives time for the service to begin generating money. But go ahead, deny that.

Which ambulance companies went bankrupt?

The major ambulance companies in our area are Lane, Clemente, Rural Metro (which is the combo of American and Gold Cross-neither of which went bankrupt). You also see Life Fleet and KLG occasionally-both of which have been begging for a piece of the Boardman action - as has Lane. Pellin got bought and dumped by an out of town company. They were teetering on the brink of failure for years. Now you see why as the owners are getting ready do do some time for basically stealing money.

There is no reason the FD couldn't provide ambulance service to offset costs. Your concern of having even fewer firemen available for fires is a real one. The fact is, however, the FD is steadily shrinking anyway. There is no trustee of candidate speaking in favor of maintaing the FD and improving the quality of the service it provides.

Also, you say you are not opposed to part time cops. Yeah, but you're not in favor of them either. I doubt you would get any cooperation from the firefighters as you attempt to balance the township's books on their backs.

skyking, I believe I did answer your question (comment #91). I know it's tough, but you're gonna hafta accept the truth.

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117apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

You can defer start up cost for many years. That doesn't make them nonexistent but does drive the costs of them up. The ambulance service banter is fun but pure fiction. I also disagree with Gary about starting up a towing service. Government shouldn't be in the private sector competing against businesses. Maybe open up our own mall!!! We could defer the cost for awhile! Perhaps open up a restaurant in the old Circuit City building? Of course these are all dumb ideas.

The ambulance service is simply to make the firemen more valuable and less likely to be outsourced. Time for the Austintown model in Boardman. Part full time and part volunteer. For the 2 real fires a year in Boardman, we can't afford 3 stations manned by overpaid workers.

No matter, the state will be dictating spending soon.

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118ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

It's commonly accepted that the FD provides fire, rescue and emergency medical service everywhere else but Boardman, Ohio, it seems.

Maybe the private sector shouldn't be trying to do what government is supposed to be doing! You know, where they focus on the bottom line of making as much profit as possible and putting lives second.

It's a shame that when the firefighters offer to stretch themselves even further than they have been in order to provide a consistent high quality level of service, the rest of the public turns on them and says they're just being greedy and self-serving.

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119SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@Ubotherme- we used to have a truck in Boardman that was used for medical/accident emergencies which didn't require dispatching the larger trucks. What happened to it?

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120ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

That was one truck from one station. It did not carry water and other essential firefighting equipment. The other 2 outlying stations have always used the only truck at their disposal, a pumper truck, to respond to all calls in their districts.
Is this that old (tired) argument about using those great big trucks on so many calls?

That's NOT unusual. Other communities who are less likely to have more than one call at a time may choose to use a smaller non-firefighting vehicle for non-fire calls.
In Boardman, it happens quite often that the trucks go from one call immediately to the next. If they're out on a medical in say, a station wagon, and a fire call comes in, they would have to run back to the station to pick up the fire truck and then respond to the fire call.
By sending the crews out in a fire truck, the chief has correctly determined the obvious: if you already have all your equipment with you, you will be better able to handle whatever comes your way.

When the Twp. sold the squad truck, the FD began using the pumper first at the main station for all calls in that district. If another call came in, and the pumper wasn't available, they would send the ladder truck. That really got some feathers ruffled!

Bottome line, the chief was trying to do the best with what he had, since the trustees never allowed there to be enough manpower to run a smaller vehicle AND keep enough guys available for fire calls.

At least you are asking the questions in a decent way. In the past alot of people have stood outside and lobbed stones at the FD due to their ignorance and unwillingness to consider the actual job the FD does.

To Dakka: Don't forget, the people of Boardman passed a levy to keep safety forces intact. They did so in the midst of this "economic crisis".

Do not underestimate the people. You know, the ones from whom the current trustees are HIDING the fire station closures!

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121SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme-Thanx for the info. Maybe we need both type of vehicles assuming we have the manpower- one for non-fire calls and the other for medical/traffic accident calls. Could also be used at fires for medical treatment. What do you think?

One other question- Is ther a particular reason fire fighters work 24 on and 48 off? Wouldn't if be more efficient to have them work 4 -12's and off 3 or 4-12's and off 4. Seems to me you would have fewer people talking about non-issues such as the need for sleep during a 24 hour shift. I worked enough doubles at Lordstown over the years to know what those kind of work hours can do. In fact I worked many 7-11.5's and was dog tired at the end of a couple weeks. Go home from work rest about 6 hours and then back at it again.

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122ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

The reason the 24/48 schedule works is because the township has the most coverage it can get with the roster it has. The only schedule that could put more on duty would be 24on/24/off. They did that in Boardman years ago. I think some federal firefighters still work that schedule. It stinks.

To go to a schedule of 12s, 10s&14s, or even 8s, without hiring more personnel would mean fewer firemen on duty. It's just how it works out mathematically.

The 24/48 schedule is pretty much the standard in the industry. There are other 24hour schedules out there with differing days off in between shifts, but for the firemen to work less than ten 24hour shifts per month (as they do currently) would mean less coverage, unless more personnel were to be hired.

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123SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme- Thank you. I asked the question because I am not looking to put more work on the fire dept nor cut the manpower. I was trying to see if we could save money on overtime and use the savings to hire more people. Tell me if this would work- I'll use Lockwood for example.

4 crews of 2 - each work 4/12's on a rotating basis

A crew- 7am-7pm M-Th; B-crew - 7pm -7am M-Th;
C crew- 7am-7pm F- M; D-crew - 7pm -7am F - M; etc

over a 21 day work schedule a firefighter would only be required to work 144 hrs instead of 168 which includes 9 hours of overtime. The savings here could be used to hire part-time firefighters who would work say 3pm - 11pm 4 on & 4 off to provide extra manpower during the busiest times of the day. The same could also be done at the South Avenue Station. (If 3-11 is not the busiest times, pick the 8 hour period that is.)

These people could also be used to cover vacations, sick days, etc without affecting the full time manpower.

The same could be done at the main station except you would have 4 crews of 4 instead of 2 and you would have you would have 2 part-time people to supplement your regular crew.

To make this work you would need 32 full time firefighters plus 8-10 part-time and I think it could be done with the normal budget from the savings on overtime.

Your Opinion?

If you put the squad truck back on that we were discussing earlier, your would need 8 additional full time personnel working shifts as proposed at Lockwood & South Avenue.

Then you would need 40 full time and 10 -12 partime. But if the overtime gets under control, the people voted the FD & PD more funds so it could be used here.

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124ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

dakka wrote:
"@ NoBS: Yeah, I read the ambulance proposal, and everything else I could find on the subject. Sorry, I’m not convinced it will turn a profit. More and more people are going without insurance, and the proposal is that we would not seek collections from township residents. That’s different from the “For-Profits”. Besides, the start-up costs are prohibitive. Maybe if we had some extra cash lying around it might be something to consider. But to do it now, with the township going into the new year in deficit, it would be irresponsible to gamble with taxpayers’ funds on such a venture. (Funny thing is, when we had the money, the unions insisted we paid it out in increased salaries and benefits).

If “BOARDMAN TOWNSHIP ALREADY HAS ALL THE EMPLOYEES THEY NEED”, then why all the OT? How can we get “more work out of existing employees” without paying even more OT? Like SkyKing said, “If the fire dept is short staffed now and this is the reason for all the overtime- where are we going to get the people to run the ambulance?” And what about those OSHA regs, if they apply to the firefighters would they also apply to the Ambulance Service Workers?

BTW, could you give a link to the OSHA regs you have referred to.


@ ubotherme: I’m not opposed to part time policemen.

As to the ambulance service, if you’re so convinced it will be profitable, why not start your own company. Get some investors, mortgage your house, take out a loan, and start it up. Or do you only gamble with taxpayer’s money?"
You're not convinced an ambulance would turn a profit? So, are you saying the private companies that run in Boardman are doing charity work? Hardly.
It might be a good idea if we had some extra cash lying around? Are you kidding? First there is plenty of extra cash (Leicht is hiding it and you know it). Second, either it's a good idea or it's not. I guess you would be in favor of throwing extra cash at something you thought was a bad idea, though. HA!
Going into the new year in a deficit. Yes, gary, that's why we'll have to borrow money like most other communities in similar situations. Don't worry though, the local banks do appreciate the business. (Part of the plan, Gary).
As far as OSHA, try Googling "OSHA 2in/2out".
You're worried about ambulance workers/OSHA?
I think you're trying to throw out more and more potential roadblocks.

Why do I waste my time? As if you have a shot anyway.

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125ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Many ideas may look ok to you on paper, but even with your example, I see you have all shifts working on Mondays. I realize you may be shooting from the hip, but I'm just pointing out a detail there.

Trying to staff-up during "busy" times is dangerous. Emergencies happen at all hours.

Looks like you are not taking into consideration having 4-man crews or 3-man crews.

Part timers are not a given. They are not required to come to work, and their loyalties invariably lie with full time jobs, families or other part time gigs.

A major consideration to any changes in schedule/working conditions, etc. would be the CBA that the parties currently work under.

Finally, again with the money from the levy:

WHERE IS IT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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126ubotherme(53 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

My apologies. Your scenario does NOT have all crews working on Mondays.
I misread that.
But, where have I seen such a schedule before????

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127SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme-I don't know about where you have seen a schedule like this before. Just an Idea, thought you might have some suggestions. Like I said I'm not trying to cut personnel but use the budget more efficiently.

I tried to be fair by rotating days off with the 4 on/4 off schedule. It also cuts 24 hours from each pay cycle so that you would have more time to spend with your families or whatever you wanted.

As far as emergencies go, I know they happen all the time, but I'm certain you keep statistics showing what time periods you receive the most calls for assistance. I'll bet I'm pretty close on the 3-11 time period, but I could be wrong.

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128SkyKing310B(280 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ubotherme-By the way, when I say Part-time, I am not talking about volunteers, I am talking permanent part-time employees who would have the same responsibility to show up for work when they are scheduled-just like anybody else.

I'm not privvy to the hourly rate of a firefighter (not including benefits), but i would imagine that someone earning that rate for 24 - 32 hours per week would have a nice side income, which might even be more than they make on a regular job.

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129Dakka(18 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

@ ubotherme: Clemente filed bankruptcy in March, Chapter 11. Reasons cited for the filing: rising fuel prices, rising liability insurance costs, rising employee health insurance costs, and shrinking revenue due insurance companies reducing payments and more customers without insurance. The companies that are making it have been forced to cut costs.

“either it's a good idea or it's not.” Like I said it’s a gamble. There’s only one way to know whether it’ll work or not, and that’s to do it and see. Personally I think it would be irresponsible to gamble with taxpayer’s money. Maybe if we has a surplus and could afford to take a hit of a couple hundred grand…, but not when we’re running a deficit. (BTW the deficit is real, and borrowing money has never been part of the plan). But again, if you’re convinced an ambulance service is such a good deal then why not do it yourself? HA!

No shot? Perhaps, but at least I’m taking the time to discuss the issues and learn a few things. I don’t see any other candidates/trustees making the effort. And at least with me you know where I stand. Besides, win or lose I intend to continue the discussion. Until then…

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130apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

There is a fourth way.

20% wage and benefit cuts frees up 2-3 million dollars. 20% is what they are overpaid according to the audit. 2-3 million fixes the manpower issues.

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131apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Quality like Kendall and others? Boardman safety services are about as cushy of a job as there is. Almost no violent crime and nearly zero real fires. So we should pay them like this is a war zone?

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132apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Wait until the state steps in and does the forcing!

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133NoBS(2214 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

And by that I mean employees do have rights. The way to get things done is to treat people fairly, and in an honorable manner.

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134apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

How about treating the taxpayers in a fair and honorable manner? That hasn't been happening. The employees have raped the taxpayers for decades. That's why we pay for cadillac employees and get Yugo's like Kendall, Seditz, The IT rookie, Patterson the clearance cooker, cars for tots, 2 men per truck, unneeded substations, 38 vacation days, 4 hours per court appearance, 11 holidays, OT out the wazoo, minimum staffing that makes no sense, pensions that are unsustainable, health care the envy of the working world, ad nauseum.

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135apollo(1227 comments)posted 5 years, 8 months ago

Only at the public trough can employees act and think like ALLBS. In the private sector the company TELLS YOU what concessions are needed. They don't ask and they don't negotiate, they DICTATE. If you don't like it, you can always leave. ALLBS is obviously a lifetime trough feeder.

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