‘Socialized medicine’ is in the eye of the beholder

Tom, First - as a Republican, I'd like to say that many of us WOULD be glad to get rid of Medicare and Medicaid - as it is these two programs that are largely responsible for introducing the giantic pot of money into the health care system in the 1960's, which encouraged the over-expansion of the medical system and its costs. Like all things in a market economy, the medical system grew to fit the amount of money available to be spent. Research the numbers prior to the inception of these programs: look at the cost of a doctor's visit prior to Medicare and Medicaid, and the cost after.

And comparing the VA system to Medicare and Medicaid is an apples and oranges comparison. The care we provide our veterans is part of their compensation package - agreed to when citizens sign on to serve in the military. It is staffed by medical professionals who have agreed to be part of the system - the system has not been forced on them by government decree.

As for the motives of those of us who oppose socialized medicine, please do not assume that we are all misanthropes. Most of us simply understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is no right to health care - just as there is no right to food, clothing, shelter, or anything else that must be provided by another human being. To believe that others owe you something, just because you exist and need it, is to believe in slavery. The antebellum plantation owners could spin elaborate and convincing arguments for slave labor. How ironic that many of those same arguments are resurfacing today - the only difference being who will be enslaved.

leave, very good reply.

The notion that healthcare costs increased across the board due to the existence of Medicare/Medicaid is flawed. Your slavery argument is also flawed.

I would give you (and others who post here) more credit if you just came out and said that you're a greedy person with no time for any type of charity. Let's hope you (I would add "or someone you care about" but I given your comments that doesn't seem a likely scenario) never require life-saving charity, it would be a shame if you had to experience the lack of compassion you hold for others.

Jeff, I'm never sure why people on these blogs resort to ad hominem attacks. If you think my assertion of medicare increasing costs is flawed, or my argument about slavery is, please feel free to provide a reasoned argument in response.

Simply deciding that I'm a greedy person with no time for charity and no compassion for others is not only adolescently insulting, it is inaccurate. I am quite involved with charities - both timewise, and financially. I feel no need to defend myself in this area, but I do like the record straight.

When I say there is no free lunch, I am simply stating a fact of reality. Humans get nothing from nature for free. Everything they need, they must produce in some fashion - everything must be worked for. Even people who want to live off the land in the wild, must hunt for or forage for food, fashion some protective coverings and shelter. Not even water is really free - it may fall from the sky, but it must be collected and delivered to where it will be used.

Work is the defining characteristic of our species. And a system of voluntary exchange respects people's rights to their own efforts. Demanding an entitlement, or thinking one has a right to just take something shows a complete lack of respect for one's fellow humans.

Does our health care system need an overhaul? Yes. Is the answer that we just take what we want, regardless of the cost to others? No. This position is not greed. It is consideration for others, in the broadest sense. Just taking from some, to give to others, is not compassion. It is simple theft.

leave,you may get banned from these comment sites. Your making way too much sense and looks like you ended this debate. People like Jeff,Cambridge and their ilk rarely contribute anything worth while and really aren't worth debating. Keep up the common sense replies. P.S. When they call names just agree, they want to put us on the defense. I don't care if they call me racist,uncaring,neo-com,right-wing nut or whatever. Hopefully soon, being called a racist in this country will result in the reply of "who cares".

Jeffrey,

I invite you to read the book by Arthur C. Brooks, "Who Really Cares?". He reviews the studies that reveal that conservatives are more charitable than libs. I also invite you to review VP Biden's history of charitiable giving as well as Obama's prior to his quest for the Presidency...pretty shabby compared to McCain and Palin's.

Liberals...generous with other people's money.

BTW, how compassionate is it to promote government-dependence? A government that promotes a citizens dependence upon the government is as compassionate as a drug pusher that offers the first dose of crack for free. The social safety net is no net at all, it is a pair of shackles.

leaveusalone and Nonsocialist,

I agree with both of you, on what is going on with the Health care bill. The Editor really painted a nice picture of the government sponsored health care systems, but how soon do we forget the Walter Reed Hospital ordeal, the Marines that now have Cancer because of the water they drank, and how many Doctors and Hospital Medicare and Medicaid do not pay. These are things that we as the taxpayer need to be looking at.

It is not the fact that everyone has health care, but everyone can get affordable Health care. The rest of the world now has the jobs that the Country once had and believe me the Party that is now in power will not stop these jobs from leaving either. That is how the rest of the world is paying for the health care in there Country; off the goods that the “Fat Americans” are buying. This Country needs to get away from the Green agenda and put pressure on the places that are producing the goods (China, Mexico, and South Korea) to limit the green house gases in there Country. They also need to go pressure Governments that clear cut Forest and Rain Forest.

One last thing this Nation needs to learn how to plant a tree every three months too. They do it in Korea and in the Far East. We might want to tell Al Gore that we can solve Global warming and not even spend 100 billion dollars to do it. “Plant a tree that is a green program that will work.”

Remember: “Red is the new Green”

Neville

I am really tired of hearing how well the VA Health systems works. IT DOES NOT! It is all a shell game. There is NO gynecologist for female veterans. Referrals to a specialist are a joke at best. In all reality care at VA facilities is greatly rationed. Not only is care rationed, but your illness better be also. It has gotten to the point that you will have to schedule a heart attack or stroke 6 weeks in advance, before you can be seen. It it was not so pathetic and true it would be amusing, but that is the way the system works. It has needed an overhaul for decades.
If you wonder where I get my information I am a retired VA healthcare system employee AND a Veteran of the First Gulf War. I am eligible for care in all areas of the VA. I use only dental. For the rest I use my BC/BS.
If my husband or I need any care we call or civilian primary care provider ie personal doctor. 9 out of 10 times we are seen within that half of the day. If I called the VA we might get an appointment within the next 30 days. The VA system is understaffed, over burdened and totally inefficient. WECOME TO OBAMA CARE. Civilian will now have something in common with veterans. Get used to it. We have. We do not like it much but it is the only Socialized Medicine some veterans have. WELCOME to our MEDICAL NIGHTMARE!!

I agree fully with you Mrs. Rupp. Thank you for your contribution.

All attempts at socialized medicine have failed. Medicare's costs are 17x those initially projected in 1965. The date of it's bankruptcy has been again moved up to 2017. The VAMC's are third world quality at best. Social security is scheduled to go bankrupt in 2037. The author calls these programs successes? His view of the truth is obscured by his hatred for all things Republican.

Something to ponder...the Baucus bill in its current form cuts payments to already struggling hospitals by 25%. It is my prediction that there will be a "hospital bailout" in the future with the Federal government taking over the management of many hospitals nationwide. In any event, the hospitals will be controlled directly or indirectly by the Feds through government revenue (Medicare/Medicaid).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12421...

ProAmerican,

You touch on something there that angers me greatly. It is my firm belief that the entitlement culture and lifestyle has devastated many neighborhoods, families and lives. The government has created incentives to be slothful and idle and to not work. When I read reports of government-dependent individuals neglecting or abusing their children (or themselves), having an addiction to drugs, a life of criminal activity...I become angry. These people could have been incentivized to succeed, work hard and take pride in their efforts, as well as pursue further education and skills.

What the power-seeking government has done to these people is beyond immoral. Socialist principles such as income-redistribution and a transfer of wealth and financial power from the subjects to the rulers is indeed evil...and I don't use that word loosely.

Thanks for your thoughts. Fight on brother.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I just want some facts here. Charity is an individual choice and how much someone gave is irrelevant. I wonder what is more important, money charity or time charity. Does it really make a difference. When I am volunteering, I don't care if you are repube or dem, I am glad you took time out of your day to even think of someone else. And as far as a free ride, isn't FREE in FREEDOM. Everyone has someone to blame for messes except themselves. Every country that has universal healthcare has an over 90% approval from doctor's, nurses and especially the patients. No matter how much money I make and what kind of job I have, I deserve the same healthcare as the guy/lady signing my dam checks, as the person who owns the business and the same as the richest person in the country. Fair is fair. And if you really knew what it's like to be government dependent then you would know that they don't give incentives to be lazy....you are only allowed to receive benefits for two straight years and after that, if you don't employment, then oh well. You're s-o-l. Also, you really need to get up on your facts. It is not the welfare or poor who abuse their children more, it's just reported more to cook up stats on the poor. 68% of drug use is among suburban and well to do folks. The party of no needs to go.

Dear MzVirgoLuv, I am not sure how you define fair. It sounds like your definition includes a sense of entitlement, but perhaps I'm misreading your words.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that everyone should have the same exact health care, whether they can afford it or not. Does this extend, in your view, to other (even more basic) human needs like food? Shelter? Clothing?.

If, in your view, the answer is yes, then I would ask you, who is to provide these things? Which of your fellow humans are you prepared to enslave to meet your needs? From whom will you take the money, time, effort, or resources to fill your own requirements? And what consideration are you giving to them? What about their needs? Or do those not matter?

When I read MzVirgoLuv's post, I wept inconsolably, read it again, then drowned my sorrows with diet Dew. "isn't FREE in FREEDOM?" My God, My God. She, and so many like her, are willing to trade hard fought freedom (by others) for a few crumbs from the aristocracy.

We've fought wars to limit the spread of communism, only to now have Maoists and Marxists a few decades later at the highest levels of government....and they have no shortage of followers (as long as other people's money is at their disposal).