- Connect
- Login
- Print Subscription
|
Welcome,
| |
| |
- Most Commented
- Most Commented
- Most Emailed
- Most Emailed
- Popular
- Popular
« Opinion
Why should taxpayers pick up the tab for GM and Delphi excesses?
Why should taxpayers pick up the tab for GM and Delphi excesses?
EDITOR:
OK, we all know that the Delphi retirees are losing some benefits. We understand that General Motors and Delphi promised you cradle to grave income, health care and the good life. We understand, but they don’t seem to get it. GM and Delphi are broke and the taxpayer owes you nothing.
Over spending and over promising have made these companies unable to compete in the marketplace. Over indulgence has killed the golden goose. But that seems to be my fault. I and the other consumers selfishly demand quality, dependability and 10 year warranties for our investment of a years income in a new car.
DON JOHNSON
Liberty
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago"quit whing and get a job."
That is probably the most ignorant statement imaginable. Congrats madam -- that's quite a feat on these pages.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago pro,
i don't know how many uaw members you know. i do know a lot of them. i wouldn't say a large number are ultra liberals. i know i'm not.
my biggest compliant about many posts on this board is the bashing of gm and the uaw getting tax dollars, while not much is said about any other tax money going to profitable companies.
i wonder how many people are aware how state and local governments fall all over themselves the lure companies.
my question again. where is the outrage?
my only conclusion is there is such hate for gm and the uaw in the mahoning valley. sure everyone should have done things differently. hindsight is a wonderful thing. if people could see the future, it would be a much better world.
i wonder how many people writing these post are old enough to remember the mahoning valley in the 50's and 60's. it was ranked 3rd in steel production in the country. enviormental laws, law makers allowing companies to close plants here and move over seas with no consequence.
then there was a company named sheet & tube. been in business for about 100 years. a venture capital firm bought it in the late 60's. bled the company dry, never reinvested a dime. when there was no more money, they just closed. throwing thousands out of work. i remember the time there were over 20,000 employed in steel in the mahoning valley. believe me, it's not all unions who have caused the demise of us industry. like one post said, there is a much smaller percentage of union workers in manufacturing today and still jobs are going over seas.
how many people realize that the largest unions in existance today are local, state and federal government employees. if so many hate union, call, write your representative and complain.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago It's a slippery slope. The taxpayers have bailed out numerous other employees who had lost their company pensions; so it's almost a given everyone demands the government to guarantee their pensions.
It's got to stop; we can't rely on the government for everything and every crisis. On the other hand, GM and Delphi employees paid huge taxes to the government and I can understand their sense of entitlement.
I agree, many of our laws like the EPA have forced numerous "American" corporations to re-locate overseas.
Both unions and management treated themselves to big raises and benefits; that also contributed to the destruction of our steel industry.
SkyKing310B (98 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Union Policy is set at the International level where the rank and file have no say.
Just like Washington-we tell our elected representatives what we want on do not want- but they do what they feel like doing- then exempt themselves from the rules.
Pro-am & Ront - I agree with you both. Jenny chan has a right to her opinion but she lives in a fantasy land. Maybe it works for her, but you can't just make the assumptions she makes about everyone.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Since I have relatives who are in unions, I speak outside of fantasy land and with quite a bit of insight into the inner workings of unions.
First off, seniority is the most important thing in a union. That in and of itself is a goofy rule. It breeds laziness among the senior people who feel like they are untouchable. My relatives tell me about it all the time. How the senior people work at half the pace of the younger and less senior people. Promotions are based on seniority and who you sleep with. So better younger and more dedicated and hard working people can't get ahead until (IF) they ever get the seniority. Raises are based on contract alone and NOT based on productivity, reliability, dedication, customer service, or any of the measures that determines raises and bonuses in REAL COMPANIES. It's nearly impossible to fire employees who are poor performers. Even in the case of theft or dereliction of duty, the union fights to keep the employee.
One only needs to see what has transpired in the last 50 years with union dominated industries. Steel, Autos, Airlines, and most manufacturing. The next union mess to be cleaned up is the Federal, State, and Local government entities. Many states are already at or near bankruptcy because of compensation far too generous. The taxpayers simply cannot afford to pay the taxes needed to keep this largess funded.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Sky and Ront. Jenny brings up valid points as wel; especially about senorityl. All three of you have your fingers on the pulse and are pointing out interesting facts.
I have to strongly disagree with Jenny when she claimed whites are insisting on entitlements.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago So your POV is based on second-hand information from relatives that seemingly lack seniority and can't hook up at work...that sounds about right.
I appreciate the clarification.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Jeff, a poor ASSumption. My husband HAS seniority! Yet, tells me stories about the "rules" that must be followed. Everything, I repeat everything is based on seniority. Nothing else even matters!
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago (I see what you did there with the capital letters, very nice.)
So we can assume that if your husband is entitled to a pension won't be accepting it, right? I mean, you've been pretty vocal about things so that's a logical deduction. You probably sent back your stimulus check last year too, no?
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago We aren't counting on a pension from his employer. He is "promised" one but we won't cry to the taxpayers if it doesn't happen. Just like we won't cry to the taxpayers if social security is less than "promised" now. We have saved a very good nest egg including my 401K so that we are and will be self reliant! Isn't that a unique concept in America and especially valley today, self reliance? Anyone who bases their future on the promises of business or government is set up for major disappointments. Both entities always over promise.
As for the capital letters, if the shoe fits. It was YOU who made a rather sarcastic ASSumption that turned out false.
cambridge (915 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Jenny....Are you making all these posts from work?
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago I didn't ask you if you were counting on his pension, I asked you if he would accept it. So?
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Jenny's husband is right. Union members rely entirely on senority. What if a senority worker isn't qualified to do his job correctley? Sometime the company and union refuse to disqualify that employee and the result is inferior work and repairs which is very unproductive.
Senority should be grouped with performance. Unions have lost a lot of goodwill and support from the American worker because of their support for slipshod, lazy and unreliable members. TERMINATED THEM! Represent good employees, not the losers.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Ahhh, I was waiting for the "you making these posts from work" crowd. Must be yet another union worker who doesn't have a clue as to how the white collar work force operates! Sorry Cambridge, but we accountants don't produce widgets on an assembly line. We work 50-60 hours a week. Accountants work extra at various times a year. Month end, quarter end, year end. Therefore, management doesn't need to have us punch a clock or watch over our shoulders to make sure we aren't wasting time. It's called a professional environment!
Jeff, if it's still there when we call it a career, we'll accept it. If not, no big deal. We won't be crying the blues and demanding that the taxpayers make up the difference. Maybe you want us to not accept his current pay check too? Since we don't really need it! A senior accountant makes a very good living!
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago I bet you're making a killing doing taxes in Youngstown, relatively speaking, of course; good for you. One simple thing keeps me smiling every day: karma. I hope that someday you'll find out why.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago jenny, you have a point. you have to realize though that an assemly line worker doesn't have to luxury of stopping whenever they feel like it.
they work in an area 3 ft wide x 10 ft long. as long as the machine runs they work. 56 mins out of every hour. half hour lunch. with an additional 45 min in an eight hour shift. so they are working almost steady for close to seven hours. doing the same thing every 40 some seconds. and they had beeter do it right every time. then there are the days they work more than 8 hours. they aren't asked, they are told, you work it. fact is now lordstown is working 10 hour shifts, 4 days a week. if sales pick up there will be a few 5 day weeks.
cambridge (915 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Jenny....I went from a blue collar worker to being a white collar worker. You like to brag about your 50-60 hour per week 80K per year job. My blue collar job paid more than that for 40 hours per week and in the past year I turned down more than twice that amount to come out of retirement for 40 hours per week. You need to come down off your high horse and stop making ASSumptions and looking down on others. Your not impressing anyone.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago I don't really understand Jeff's karma reference. Is he insinuating that I wish for bad things to happen to others and that payback for that might come back to haunt me?
I don't wish anyone harm. That doesn't mean I don't see people make bad choices all the time and it doesn't mean that the people who make wise choices should have to foot the bill for the others.
Personal responsibility is a virtue that not many have. Should those of us who have it have to pony up for those who don't? I feel bad for those who weren't wise enough to see the inevitability of their actions in causing certain industries to fail thereby costing them a "promised" benefit. Those of us who didn't buy into the "promises" shouldn't then be held responsible for their shortfalls.
I guess Jeff also ASSumes that life has been rosy for us? Far from it. We also help out family that wasn't as wise as we were. I pay for half my nieces car. Take care of my husbands elderly Mom. So now the Delphi and GM workers want us to foot their bills too? Go cry on someones shoulder who cares. They caused their own problems or at least a good portion of their problems.
Yeah, assembly line work isn't a panacea. I'm guessing though, they had the same or similar options that I had? The option to go to college or other job options. I imagine many thought that Lordstown and Delphi was guaranteed money, pension, and health care for life. They chose poorly.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago $80,000? That's just salary Cambridge. Bonus is quite another story. Plus stock options. You do understand how salary, bonus, and options works don't you? Regardless, I'm not on a high horse. Just very proud that I wasn't so dumb as to both cause my company to go bankrupt and then cry to the taxpayers for a bailout. Proud that we are self sufficient and personally responsible. Sorry that whiny entitlement mentality people are the norm in NE Ohio. They caused their owns demise and now want the taxpayers to pay for their stupidity? That is the epitome of the valley mentality.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago I truly don't wish you harm, I just I hope you end up broke somehow and remember the times where you bragged about your income, anonymously, on the Internet, in the midst of people losing their life savings’ through “sound investments,” lay-offs and job loss. Some of the people who come to me every day to try to get jobs (many of which have job titles identical to yours) understand karma; I can tell just by talking to them – hopefully someday you'll understand, too. This would please me.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Jeff, don't hold your breath!
Those GM and Delphi people are NOT losing their life savings. In fact, most of them are still going to be making far more than most people. Sorry, but I'm more than happy helping people who need help and do quite often. People who face bad times through no fault of their own. I just don't feel sorry for people who seemingly had the world by the tail and rode it into the ground.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago GM and Delphi employees had the highest wages and best benefits than any other union or even educated people who went to college, even MBAs. Swipe in at the beginning of their shift, do their jobs and swipe out at the end of their shift. It wasn't unusual for them to earn $70,000 annually plus free hospitalization and major medical, great vacation, disability insurance, etc. And still they're always whining; if they are laid off like they were in the late 90's, they had to stand in line at the UAW hall 1112 waiting for a food voucher, handout, from Giant Eagle. When they are interviewed by local tv, they lament about losing their homes, starving, etc. And these were high senority workers. The crisis, they won't receive an unemployment check for three weeks, lol. Can it be they were poor money managers, overspent on such luxuries such as rv's, boats, suv's, booze and dope? If they couldn't survive on $28.00/hr and the generous fringe benefits, maybe they'd better learn how before it's too late.
It's not wonder GM and Delphi went bankrupt. They were in the automobile industry, not babysitting.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago like i said, i worked for over 40 years for gm. i worked hard. had to quit college when i married my wife. cost me a lot of money. she got remarried and still got a ton of money from, and still doesn't work. many of my co-workers had the same thing happen to them. several i know lived in one room apartments with little furniture. i was lucky. my parents took me in for awahile. but i digress. that's another story.
i was lucky though. still had a job, but had to start all over. i was broke.
worked many more years. saved what i hoped would help in addition to my pension and social security. then the year i retired, the economy crashed. i did all the right things. i took care of my family. took care of my kids till they were 18. then i still helped them when i could. i didn't blow money. didn't buy new cars, boats, take elaborate vacations. don't gamble. i drink very little. i tried to save as much as could. thought i was doing all the right things.
i'm 60 now. getting by. i am very fortunate i met a great lady a few years who gets a small pension. retirement not as great as i had hoped. as things turned out i should have worked 5 or 10 more years. but after 40 years working in a hot dirty factory i had the chance to retire. the year i retired the stock market crashed. can't sell our house in ohio. i lost thousands from my 401k. but 20 years ago i planned for this day.
i can't find a job. believe me i've tried. does anyone think it fair for the millions like me; who did all the right things. many of served our country during the viet nam war. by the way, after i was home less than a year from nam is when wife said she wanted a divorce. she had met someone else.
my point to all this is: don't paint everyone with such a broad brush.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago pro,
your reference to gm and delphi unions causing their bankruptcy. i assume you have heard of ford motor company. the same union. the difference is mangagement.
i was raised to be honest and help family when you can. if you feel you can't keep a promise, don't make it. i'm not talking in a legal sense. it's just morally and ethicly the thing to do.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago any one else having problems with the vindy web page? for me it's running slow.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Ront, I know how guys get ripped off by the system when they get divorced. It's a crime. Lots of honest guys like you who don't drink, use drugs, etc. are abused. They are penalized for being responsible citizens at the expense of the losers.
I frequently feel I did the stupid thing for going to VietNam, working so hard all these years and being a responsible person. I'm with you, not against you.
What sort of work are you interested in doing? E-mail Pro American.
2ez2c (12 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago gm needs to make a reliable vehicle and maybe then they wouldnt need to be on welfare
Robert_Neville (14 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Editor and everyone else:
I unlike the rest of the people in America do not believe that my car should last no ten years and the warranty thing is bull. No company not even the foreign car companies give a “full ten year warranty”. Read the fine print. I like other Americans do buy GM and the only reason I do this; is because I feel that they build a really good car.
I feel that we need to help out the people in this area and pay for the retirees. You have to remember these Unions were a lot larger in the 1970’s and they had to employ large numbers of people to build these cars. They (Unions) did raise the wages and the benefits that we have today.
We all have to remember too, that the creditors that GM and Delphi owed money too; did not want to for go the amount that GM owed them. There were plenty of articles after the Company went bankrupt that the creditors did not believe the GM Corporation. That is why they ended up in this position now. You need to look at all the parts suppliers that went out of business after the bankruptcies were completed. Most of this information is protected, but if you pay some money you can get it.
One last thing, the parts that are in the GM car that you demand quality is the same parts in the Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai cars. Like I said if you are willing to pay you can find out all kinds of things.
One last thing, if you are sick of paying for GM, then the best thing for you and your friends to do is go out and buy a GM car. It is that easy. GM has to pay off the loan and the best way to repay it is if you help GM pay the government back.
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago Why should we pick up the tag for the financial industry--which was far greater than this--and pay for the mistakes brought on by deregulation?
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 2 days ago De-regulation didn't cause the banking crisis. Regulation did. Forcing banks to appove home loans for losers who didn't even had a job or a home address and promising them the federal government would guarantee them. Barney Fwank! Remember when Barney Fwank lied by saying Fweddie Mac and Fannie Mae were solvent and rumors of their being in trouble was the wedowick of white wing wepublicans?
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Pro, I don't always agree with everything you say but you are dead on with your last post. Let me add this little clip, I have posted it on a number of occasions in the past. For some reason which I can't figure out, the libs never comment on it. Well actually I can! jeff and cambridge are on this thread so I invite them to comment. cambridge likes to comment on the big bonuses that the CEO's receive and rightfully so. I am sure he or jeff will comment on Franklin Raines bonus also. The clip features Maxine and Barney (my favorites)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7...
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago De-regulation didn't cause the banking crisis. Regulation did!
HA.....
Deregulation has lead to the financial sector going from around 8% of economic activity to around 30%. Nothing of any real value has been created; huge pseudo-banks like Lehman and others jumped head first into sub-prime and helped sink the entire economy. The bank weren't forced into sub-prime, they did it willingly. Why? they were making money! The same thing goes for credit default wasps. It was a speculative market driven by short-term greed and largely unregulated - by the king of deregulation - Alan Greenspan.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Without watching the linked video I think regulation was partly to blame so I'd tend to agree with pro, but I think people who willingly overextended themselves are perhaps more culpable. The notion that someone that made $25k/year expected, through an ARM, to be able to somehow afford a $250k home in a workable manner is ridiculous. Fault the lenders but also fault the individuals. If your lender told you that you could fly would you jump off the top of a building?
Frank is nothing more than a caricature that happens to deliver marketable sound bites for the national media and represents a highly-visible region.
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Alan Greenspan, Republican, actively supported adjustable rate mortgages. Investment banks bought these sub-prime mortgages that were made, chopped them up, repackaged them and sold them as securities. They made out like bandits. Until the housing bubble burst of course.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago The GOP is guilty too. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae should be abolished. So should mandatory Social Security; it should be optional. The individual should readily accept personal responsibility for his own finances such as a pension plan, health insurance, etc. We have steadily relied increasingly on the government to safisy our needs instead of ourselves and each other. I remember when neighbors helped each other; now they're going at it with baseball bats and guns. Very sad.
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Fault the lenders but also fault the individuals. If your lender told you that you could fly would you jump off the top of a building?
The main fault is with the lenders; they are supposed to have standards that are not to be broken. However, they were more than willing to break them because they saw big money to be made and they thought the bubble would never burst.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago If we returned to those values, we could help the truely needy such as the mentally and physically disadvantaged and those who are up against it through no fault of their own. Churches used to do that; but today we replaced God for another god, government.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Ytownboy is correct. The financial meltdown was a result of deregulation under Reagan that gutted the Glass-Steagall act of 1933 that regulated the banking industry. The final nail in the coffin was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill in 1999 that the Republicans pushed through to give the banking industry free reign to leverage up and start to create and trade in Mortgage backed securities. The MBS's, called credit default swaps (not wasps) were basically worthless in the grand scheme of things and were based on the fact that nobody thought the real estate bubble would ever burst because of low interest rates that Greenspan pushed far too long. The Bush SEC took a hands off approach and allowed firms like Lehman, Bear Stearns, and others to take massive risk via leverage to the tune on 30-40 to 1. When the house of cards started to fold, the whole thing collapsed. Fannie and Freddie were not much more than a clearinghouse for mortgages and the subprime mortgages were a problem for them. Had it been just the subprime mortgages, it never would have almost caused the collapse of the financial system. I know you Conservatives like to blame Liberals and regulation for the demise but is just isn't true.
As for the above poster who points to Ford as a poster child of management greatness and viability, remember that Ford nearly went bankrupt also. Their stock was around a dollar a share. The only reason they didn't fail is Alan Mulally (Ford's CEO) borrowed tons of money before the meltdown and therefore never had the cash crunch that GM and Chrysler experienced. But, that borrowing has a downside. Now that GM and Chrysler have gone through bankruptcy, they have no debt and now have a competitive advantage over Ford who has tons of debt. This is one of the arguments against a government bailout of GM and Chrysler. Ford is now at a disadvantage to the bailed out companies. Luckily Ford has momentum, new products, and an improved image based on not having to get a government bailout. If GM and Chrysler succeed, it might be at Ford's expense.
As for picking up the tab for the financial industry, the alternative would have been very ugly. Plus, the industry, with a very kind yield curve can make tons of money and pay it back. Many have already done so and most of the at risk firms are now making tons of money. The risk of not bailing them out was great. The risk of bailing them out was minimal.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago One more thing. That Gramm-Leach-Bliley bill that opened up the banking system to excesses that caused the meltdown, was pushed hard by its main sponsor, Phil Gramm, Republican from Texas. Mr. Gramm conveniently retired from congress and became a lobbyist for......you guessed it, the banking industry. Follow the money and educate yourself to the facts rather than listening to Beck and Limbaugh and taking their rants as factual.
Search4Answers (612 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago JennyChan, advancements in the financial system are meant to help reduce risk not increase it. If you tell a bunch of losers to go get mortgages and the banks to give them out because if they fail the government's good for it then you are going to create a problem. Obviously there has to be some sort of clearing house for all the CDSs previously many didn't know they existed. Regardless the problem was created by what Greenspan Clinton and Bush did in the early part of this decade.
I generally agree with your assesment of Ford but I don't there is a huge disadvantage at this point if any. Chrysler is dead now that they are stuck with Fiat and GM seems to be reluctant not to be its old self. I think Ford has a chance; give it 5 years and they will give Toyota a run for their money (Although with stuff they took from mazda).
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago What ytownboy and some others fail to understand is that these banks could not make all these 110% loans etc. if Fannie and Freddie did not buy up the bank's loans so the banks would have the capital to make more loans. Fannie and Freddie told the banks what type of loans they would buy.
Too bad that Jeff "did not look at the clip" or he might of been tempted to comment on it. My guess is none of the libs want to admit looking at the clip.
Maxine saying:
That there was absolutely nothing wrong, it was a big to-do about nothing.
These 100% loans were wonderful.
Barney saying it was all political.
How Fannie May met their target to the penny to trigger the bonuses and no comment on these big bonuses.
Deregulation did not cause the financial mess which is at the bottom of it all , abuse caused it. Make all the excuses you want, someday you will convince your self.
This is probably the fifth time I have posted this clip and not a single lib will go through it and discuss the comments of maxine, barney etc. Says it all!
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Redvert is like a broken record. Nothing like people who can't even balance a checkbook telling accountants what caused the financial meltdown. I guess if Limbaugh says it was Fannie and Freddie, it must be so.
Fannie and Freddie were a tiny fraction of the problem. Minuscule really. The problem was indeed abuse. Abuse caused by deregulation of the financial industry that enabled them to concoct financial instruments that many of them can't even explain. Enabled them to take 1 trillion dollars of hard cash and turn it into 40 trillion of leveraged money.
Maybe someday, redvert and the right wing fanatics will understand complex financial instruments but I won't hold my breath.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago I personally am here to share and learn about opinions of posters, not to look at regurgitated clips, red. If I wanted to look at slanted clips I'd go to cable news outlets. You seem to have done a pretty good job of voicing your opinion without a supporting clip anyway -- agree or disagree I'll give you that.
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Tell me Jeff, what part of the clip is slanted, the words of Maxine, Barney or perhaps Raines?
Jenny, I do not listen to any talk show dorks, Pub or Lib. They each put their own slant on the facts. Your opinion that the housing meltdown was a minuscule part of the big picture tells a lot. Yes, we agree that it was abuse. I say that Fannie and Freddie were the key players behind that abuse, you disagree As you have your opinion, so do I.
By the way, I do agree with your views on a number of things, just not this one. Hey we are all good, we have managed to stay somewhat civilized!!!
ps: got three BALANCED checking accounts!!!
cambridge (915 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Jenny....Is it possible for you to make a point without getting personal and insulting someone?
I know you believe that your ability to use a calculator, put numbers in a column, read and make a graph or pie chart and use accounting software somehow makes you superior to the rest of us but it doesn't. You really need to get over yourself.
You make some good points but that doesn't make up for being a jerk
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Even if Fannie and Freddie were the biggest part of the problem (and they weren't-see Paul Krugman) think about how those institutions were run. They were private institutions but they had special status as government sponsored institutions. So private investor made money knowing that the federal government would bail them out--to avoid a complete economic collapse--if bets went bad. That's called socializing loss and privatizing profit. However, Fanny and Freddie had a very small role in the housing bubble. They were not at the center of high-risk lending; regulator forcibly curtailed their pending at the height of the housing market. Nor did they do any sub-prime lending; Fannie and Freddie can only make loans to people who have a put a large down payment and who can provide proof of a steady stream of income--these are loans that simply don't qualify as sub-prime.
Ytownboy (76 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago "Deregulation did not cause the financial mess which is at the bottom of it all , abuse caused it. Make all the excuses you want, someday you will convince your self."
Deregulation is what allowed abuse to occur in the first place. Hence the term "regulation" controlling human or societal behaviour by rules or restrictions. People like Alan Greenspan thought that financial wizards were smart enough to know what was bad for the economy without having to be regulated by the government. He was proven wrong.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago red,
I'll type slower this time so you can better keep up: I DIDN'T AND WON'T WATCH THE CLIP. Did you have to play said clip over and over to comprehend its message? I ask because I've typed the same thing three times now with no evidence that you have any idea what I'm talking about. "Mr. Rosenberg: you need an appointment."
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago jenny,
i think you missed the point i was trying to make about ford. everyone wants to blame the unions for gm and chrysler's bankruptcy. in both companies, like i have previously stated, fault is on both sides. the difference with ford is management. the had better farsighted leaders. so it wasn't just the uaw's fault, although they should share some fault. about 20 years ago, auto workers contracts started to give back. maybe they should have done more faster.act is over the alst 20 years gm has increased production while cutting their workforce by over half.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago pro,
thanks, but i moved to fl. i love it here. after living in ohio my whole life, i got tired of the weather. i don't miss it. would just like to sell the house there. as it is, a few times a year we have to go back to ohio to take care of some things.
Alexinytown (64 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day agoAs a side note, not sure how people put up with living in Florida. Seriously, you have major traffic issues, hurricanes on a yearly basis (and the inevitable evacuations on occasion), it is extremely hot during the summer, Spanish for the most part is a second language there, it is pretty expensive to live there, and the list goes on. Love to visit, but wouldn't want to live there.
Ohio really is not that bad. We have seasons, a thunderstorm here and there, snow for 3-4 months out of the year (and even that varies), but overall it could be a hell of a lot worse weatherwise. Just happy I'm 1.) not paying for hurricane insurance and 2.) not rebuilding when they do come through.
HaydenThomas (8 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Jenny, don't let Cambridge get to you and keep up the good work. Better to be an Accountant than a Lawyer.
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Ront, I'm glad you're happy in FL. I hope I can spend a few months down there too.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago just some thing to else i want to throw out for discussion.
i was reading today about colleges increasing tuition, again. i was wondering how many have gone to college, and in part got tax dollars to subsidize their education; but have a problem using tax dollars to help others?
and by the way, i see no problem with it. with the cost of college, on very rich elites would be able to afford it.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago alex,
after living my whole life in the mahoning valley, i got tired of the weather. i one who just doesn't like cold and snow.
as far as living exps. true, fl not as cheap as it used to be. but some things are much cheaper. food, utilities. and you have realize, the mahoning valley is one of the lowest cost areas in the country to live.
just a matter of what one likes. i like the year round nice weather. get to ride my motorcycle almost every day. go to the pool middle of oct.
but we are getting away from the core question. it is a breathe of fresh air to read most posts that are intelligent and thought provoking.
goes to show you, not everyone is dumb factory worker. lol
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago ront, the problem with college costs has quite a bit to do with unions. See the latest issue with the ACE union at YSU. A union that has nothing to do with enrollment getting $4500 bonuses for each employee based on improved enrollment?
But most college kids are not getting tax dollar subsidies. They are getting loans and scholarships from various third party groups. Obviously the loans get repaid, eventually.
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Alexinytown, I have lived in Florida for my 40 working years. Love the winters but hated the summers. That is why I bought a summer home back here where I grew up. I live on the Space Coast down there and you are right, South Florida is steadily moving north. As far as my necessary expenses and insurance goes, my six months in Florida costs me ~$480 more than in Ohio. That is due to the higher home owners insurance. That difference will go away next year, (new insurance company). Of course I am in the right place at the right time to keep expenses down. Next week I load up the vette and head south for the winter. Life is good, but that is because I planned ahead. That gets us back to the original topic.
We tend to agree to disagree. If we didn't this subject would not of made one page!!!
hope4thevalley (387 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Did not the union member have a contract ???? Or I'm wrong ??? like the bankers ??? Did the salary guys have a contract??/ Or did they just take the word of Capitalism pieces of *iht Like PRO
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago That is the "beauty" of bankruptcy, you don't have to live up to any of your agreements. At one time a person's word was good, now even contracts mean nothing!
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Hope, shame of you! Calling capitalists pieces of s..t. Who gave the bankers huge bailouts? Capitalist pieces of s..t or Bush and Obama? If you want to help poor and middle class kids afford college tuition, end govt. grants, and loans. No wonder colleges had raised their tuition; they know the govt.(taxpayers) will automatically pay for it. Keep college tuition and health insurance competitive and affordable, get the govt. out of it.
Also, the socialists who dominate colleges had raising tuition much higher than the rate of inflation, one of their priorities ( the other is promoting communism and anti Judeo-Christian values). If socialists are so caring, why do they increase tuition costs so steeply? To help poor and middle class kid afford an education or reap the benefits of govt. grants and loans?
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago jenny,
you are wrong. all collges get tax dollars for something.
ront (52 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago pro, let me know if you do come to fl. be nice to see someone from oh.
i'm even going to put my e-mail address
got to go for a walk now. still in 70's lol
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Thank you
AXLE69 (48 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Of course Pro-Conservamerican would blame unions for this which is rather hypocritical since he belonged to the UAW for 24 yrs where he enjoyed all the benefits of belonging to a union such as livable wages,health care, paid vacations and holidays,sick leave etc.etc.etc.I just feel bad for all those unionists in the past who fought and died for the things Pro-Conservamerican enjoyed like a pig at a trough but now spends his days and nights slamming hard working union members.How do you know most UAW members are ultra-liberal Pro-Conservamerican? Did you take a poll before you took the buyout? Did you walk the line and ask every worker their political persuasion? If you don`t have any numbers to back this up then why should Vindy.com readers believe you? I know I don`t.You don`t have a clue.You spout off these statistics that exist only in your head dude.Hopefully the majority of people on here read your comments for some comedic relief because if they believe you are actually presenting facts they are sorely mistaken.
AXLE69 (48 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago I read that you are a man of prayer and God Pro-Conservamerican.Hmm.How do you feel when one of the anti-abortion whackjobs murders a doctor in his church vestibule for performing a legal medical procedure? Does that make you happy? Do you consider the whackjob killer a hero like Randall Terry does? Being a law and order capitalist REAL American I`m sure you`re in favor of the death penalty for the killer correct? Oh,if you do go to Florida,watch out for the socialists down there.President Obama did win that state.LOL!!!!!!!
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month, 1 day ago Axle, I was a good employee, not one of the losers the union and management has to waste time and money on in lieu of termination. I didn't have to walk the line to conduct a poll concering their political affilation; I saw the overwhelming support for Anti-American socialists line Clinton and Gore. Do you think all those pro socialist UAW members were happy when they accepted the buyout and were taxed 42%? They're in favor of taxing the "rich".
Yes, its a terrible thing when an anti-abortion nut murders a doctor who in turn murdered 60K innocent unborn babies, oh, sorry, fetuses. Many of which were murdered by partial birth operations. Do you think all those "fetuses" were tortured for money paid to the good doctor? Your're probably a bleeding heart who wants to prosecute the CIA for blowing smoke in the diaper head terrorist,s face who masterminded 911, murdering 3000+ innocent citizens.
I was never in favor of the lavish wage and benefit program we had; I had predicted it would help kill the goose that laid the golded egg, GM, now Government Motors. What other reason did GM fail beside poor management? By the UAW milking everything they could from management. No, I won't give the money back, neither will all the rich socialists who complain about obscene profits. Why are all the auto transplants prosperous while GM and Moped now owned by Obama. They're not burdened with legacy costs. UAW union costs which were obtained by bullying the Big Three. Ford is the only union auto company which escaped bankruptcy and government ownership. The reason: They didn't pattern bargain like the rest of the UAW. As a matter of fact, many of my former GM co-workers mocked Ford workers and their contract because it wasn't as lucrative as ours. Who's laughing now?
wineywoman (4 comments)posted 1 month ago This is a very touchy subject in this valley. Most retirees of G.M. are getting the shaft. The only reason the hourly cuts aren't as deep is because of contractual oblogation on the part of the company. Having been on both sides of that fence, I know that the salaried workers got the worst of the deal. If you ask me, G.M. has found a way to permanently reduce their liability. The problem is that when, not if, they return to a state of profitability, none of us will see any restoration of our benefits. Meanwhile, we'll have to pay for the bail-out in taxes, and lose the benefits that we earned over many years of hard work. To those of you who think that working at G.M. is a cake walk, let me tell you, it ain't for sissies! The only reason people stay there is for the pay and benefits. Now that those are gone, will people stay or continue to vacate this valley? I keep hearing the old "Buy American" slogans. Sure, I value the income generated by G.M. but how long can I stay loyal with this knife blade in my back?
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago Jennychan -
I find most of your comments to be insulting, offensive, unsympathetic, and lacking respect for others. You don't know all of the salaried workers.. I'd like to introduce you to one, my dad.
My dad was hired in at GM in 1971 with a Bachelor's degree in engineering from Michigan Tech - he was a salary employee - no union. In 1976, a 600 lb. metal crate fell on him and shattered his bottom 5 vertebrae. He spent 6 months in the hospital recovering. He was offered disability and refused. Instead, at the age of 30, spent months in physical therapy learning how to walk with a cane. He went back to work - full time, as a plant manager.
In 1991, he was transferred to Delphi, without any consent - just transferred. In 1993 he underwent major reconstructive back surgery for the second time and was again laid up for 6 months. He went back to work, part time. He was passed over for several promotions because he was physically unable to perform the necessary tasks and work the long hours. In 1996, he graduated from SVSU with his MBA - still no promotion.
In January 2001 (the year I was getting married), Delphi told him he either had to retire or be able to work full time - they would no longer keep him on part time. My dad was 55 years old, and made to retire because he couldn't do his job full time due to an injury they caused.
In 2007 my dad was diagnosed with Leukemia. He underwent many rounds of chemo and a bone marrow transplant. My parents had to rent an apartment in Ann Arbor for 6 months to be near the hospital, and my mom had to quit her job to take care of him. He then suffered from Host V Graft disease as a result of the transplant. Their only source of relief in all of this was that they had good insurance and retirement was taken care of. Even with that good insurance and my dad's pension plan, they were still spending more in one year on medical related expenses than what they were bringing in.
When my parents received the notice in February 2009, that they were going to lose their benefits, my dad was taking more than 40 prescription medications a day, not too mention all of the over the counter meds he needed. They were practically uninsurable. To insure my dad (even with Medicare), was going to cost them more per month than their per month income from his pension - and that didn't cover my mom. A life insurance policy, was going to cost them more than my mortgage payment each month - and that was for a policy half the size of what Delphi had promised them.
In April of 2009, my dad died from complications related to the transplant. He entered into Hospice care saying this was probably for the best, it would be cheaper this way. My mom would now be able to afford insurance on his pension payment. He died with the satisfaction and comfort that his wife would be taken care of after he was gone because of all the hard work he had given over the years.
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago (cont'd)
My dad never lived to learn that they were going to reduce the pension plans. Because my mom was not the employee, she does not qualify for the whole pension, and now, she gets only a fraction of that. She is working - a $10/hr job, 32 hours a week, and she is a 58 year old widow.
How dare you call them fools for believing the company - why shouldn't they have in 1971? How dare you classify all retirees in the category. A lot of these men and women were college educated, hard working adults. My dad never made what your precious accounting salary gets you, and he had an MBA. My parents never sued GM for his injury, they trusted the company to keep its word and take care of them like they said they would.
All of these retirees are people. They have stories, hardships, feelings. It seems like you may have forgotten that. What if this happened to your parents? Would you tell them "quit whining and get a job?" I sincerely doubt it, unless you truly are that insensitive.
I do wish that the taxpayers didn't have to pay for it, Delphi should have done what they said they were going to. These retirees aren't even demanding that the taxpayers pay it, they ultimately would like Delphi to pick up the tab. But it is NOT fair to say these people were fools and deserve this in any way.... No one deserves this.
Please think of other people before you go slamming an entire group of people you don't actually know. I think it's very admirable the people out there who can sympathize and stand beside those among us who are less fortunate, even if it doesn't directly affect them. An injustice is an injustice, regardless. Some things are black and white, and if you made a promise and then break that promise and that has dire effects on others, that is an injustice. Talk about entitlement, what does Delphi feel it is so entitled to that it makes alright for them to screw over the people that helped them get to the top?
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month ago lal,
Well said. I offer condolences to you and your family regarding your loss.
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago Thanks Jeff.
I appreciate your comments throughout - a voice of sanity in a see of crazy :)
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago omg... I am so embarrassed - too much cold medicine for me - I meant a "sea" of crazy...
strojjj (16 comments)posted 1 month ago lolz!
It takes a village to raise your kid!
We are no longer responsible for our own actions!
"Gone are the days of working hard for personal gain!", so said Obama.
We are being driven from a societ of hard working, independant people, to a people that are dependant on hand outs, freebies, and other peoples money.
And why not? Why should we work when we can have free health care, free food, free housing, free cell phones. Free! Free! Free!!!!
Oh.... wait a minute. If it is all free for everyone, who is going to pay for it to give it to us all for free?
Oh well, who cares, because it is FREE!!!! Wooo, hooo!!!
Now sit down and shut up. You all elected this socialist, communist, radical. Now live with it.
2ez2c (12 comments)posted 1 month ago n.e. ohio has an average of 90 days of sun per year, its a gloomy rusty crime town with a crapy car factory. i live in columbus and i see all kinds of old cars on the road .. not one of them were made in lordstown, when i come home to vist family too old to move im reminded of why i left. bless the police for trying to make a difference in the jungle you call youngstown
Search4Answers (612 comments)posted 1 month ago 2ez2c, I would disagree... I live in columbus there are a good amount of old cavaliers that you still see, not quite as many as the old camrys but still they last decently.... they're ugly as heck but I don't question that they'll last 15 years with some tlc.
2ez2c (12 comments)posted 1 month ago i think i seen a couple of cavaliers but if i remember right i could see through the rust holes or they were in a junk yard with the rest of gm junk
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month ago Wow, took me a while to dry up my tears.
First off, if it was indeed the fault of GM that your Dad was hurt in the first place, he either: 1. Got a nice settlement payment for not suing or 2. Was a fool for not suing.
Life is not all rosy and wonderful. In fact, it's filled with pain and suffering. My sister was killed in an auto accident. We didn't ask for the taxpayers to pay for her funeral or our pain and suffering. My Dad died a few years ago after many years of Altzheimers. We didn't ask the taxpayers for any money. My Mom had cancer and we didn't ask for the taxpayers to help with the cost of surgery and chemo. My Father in Law died a very painful death from cancer and we didn't whine about the costs, time, and suffering. My Mother in Law is now broke and we aren't asking for the taxpayers to pay up.
My parents and in laws also didn't have the benefit of working for the highest paying employer in NE Ohio for many years like your Dad did. Sounds like your parents forgot to save and bought into the free spending mentality.
Everyone has their own sob story. Many far more painful than yours. I wish life was guaranteed and that everything was perfect, it isn't. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for your pain and suffering and I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for mine. That's not cold hearted. That's just fairness. We all have our own issues to deal with and while I'm sorry for your loss, you aren't alone.
If I had a dollar for every time someone thought they were passed over for promotion, I could retire now. The fact that they made your Dad a plant manager sounds like they were more than fair. I know people with doctoral degrees who have never been promoted. Sorry, but not everyone can be a manager and simple longevity doesn't guarantee promotions.
Anyone who takes the word of companies or the government regarding future payments of any kind is setting themselves up to fail. I work for ME, not for my company. I'm no more dedicated to them than they are to me. I work my tail off, but with the continual thought that I am expendable and the companies fortunes could change tomorrow.
Delphi and GM were both driven to bankruptcy by the very employees who are now experiencing the results of that bankruptcy.
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago All I can say is I feel very sorry for you... Sorry that life has been so horrible to you that you are a mean and cynical person. Sorry that you feel the need to be rude to others. Sorry that you distrust everyone and have no sense of loyalty. Sorry that you have no care for others.
Just because I have a sad story, doesn't mean I don't have room in my heart to care about your sad story. It's sad to think that you are so wrapped up in your self-righteous, looking out for number 1 attitude, that you don't have the time, room, or compassion it takes to care about others.
FYI... Neither I, nor my mother are asking the taxpayers to pay for her expenses. GM/Delphi asked for that. We have written letters to the bankruptcy judge objecting to letting Delphi off the hook. We ARE fighting this out in court. However, having our voices heard (which is not the same as whining), gives us a better shot at getting what those workers earned - their pensions and benefits.
My parents were not fools for suing. They have something called principles. They believed that it was an accident, not a malicious act, and that all of their medical expenses would be covered. That is what they were told. I will not tolerate you, or anyone else, judging them for doing the actual right thing. You talk about an entitlement society... this is a perfect example of NOT living that life. My parents modeled for me an example life full of honesty, hard work, and not taking what doesn't belong to you. They also taught me that if I made a promise to someone, I kept it. They taught me to care about others - a lesson you seemed to have missed.
As for the employees driving them to bankruptcy - I have to pass that off the union workers, who by the way are still receiving their benefits and pensions.
And as for "the benefit of working for the highest paying employer..." He earned that benefit by going to college and working hard. This was not handed to him on a platter, he worked for it, much like you work for your paycheck - which sounds like it's very nice. Do I begrudge you that because you have an accounting degree and I don't? No, that was my choice to study a different field. I have no idea what your parents did for a living, but if your dad had an engineering degree, perhaps he would have been privilege to the same opportunity. My parents lived a very modest life. And fortunately they were good savers. Otherwise, my mom would have NO money for insurance and she would be in Medicare (which we'd pay for) and she would probably have to go on some type of assistance - food stamps (which we would pay for). So let's be glad she didn't buy into the free spending mentality or else we would be paying a whole lot more for her!
I have never in my life heard someone as callous and cynical as you. I hope that your savings account thanks you at your funeral because it sounds like that is all you look out for in life.
Karma...
lal (7 comments)posted 1 month ago FYI... There was not a settlement payment. In fact, we had to take them to court to get them to pay for medicines that insurance wouldn't cover that he needed as a direct result of the accident.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month ago I'm a very compassionate person. I just reserve that compassion for people who don't cause their own problems. Everyone at Delphi and GM had a hand in the bankruptcy including salaried employees who were more than happy to get compensated very handsomely based on the union contracts.
I feel sorry for people who have no control of the bad things that happen to them. The employees of those 2 companies had control and refused to see the forest for the trees. Life isn't fair. Get over it.
Bankruptcy is a remedy that is constitutionally based.
I don't see you crying about the bond holders who got the shaft when GM went bankrupt. Many were older retirees who had all their money in GM bonds and are now destitute. You can whine all you want about your pensions being cut by 1/3. How about people without pensions and no health care? Just more white Americans who think just being white in America makes them entitled to a middle class lifestyle. Sorry hon, there are no guarantees.
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month ago Jenny, I thought awhile back that you were a dirtbag, now I am convinced.
You seem to think that being a accountant is something special. In industry you are what is know as a bean counter, nothing more.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month ago Jenny,
You are a pig in the most literal sense of the word. As lal says, you (along with most) clearly don't even understand what's going on: individual people aren't asking for bailouts, companies within certain industries are asking for them. You keep grinding that axe though and get ready for when the tax code is rewritten and your services aren't needed anymore. Remember: karma. I hope you end up having to give handj*bs for cash.
redvert (495 comments)posted 1 month ago jeff, I think she will go out of her way to get the bonus!!!
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month ago Jeff, I understand entirely what's going on. People who directly caused their company to file bankruptcy are whining and trying to change the bankruptcy laws that have been around for decades. They are trying to get enough sympathy from politicians looking for reelection to provide a taxpayer subsidy. Entitlement nation! Whine and cry instead of take control of your own responsibilities. But Delphi promised. Now the taxpayers should pay us for causing our own demise!
Bean counter! I've always liked that name. Bean counters are everywhere and basically control the world. I don't recall saying I was a tax accountant!
Quit your whining. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month ago So have a problem with the company for agreeing to contracts that hamstrung them from a legacy, not with the employees! This is common sense. You talk about people saving and investing responsibly...maybe on your planet you haven't heard about people losing tens of thousands of dollars on "sound investments" like retirement savings plans, it has been quite well publicized here on Earth for the last year or so.
Telling people in the mid to late 60s to "get a job" when their pensions AND retirement savings plans are gone through literally no fault of their own. They went to work everyday for 30+ years and took comfort in relatively few assurances while you and I sat in air conditioned classrooms getting “smarter.” Tell them that they "should have saved up," though. “Look at me everyone: I’m my own boss, my family and I have money and if you don’t – sucks to be you.” You are a pig.
(Incidentally, I consider myself FORTUNATE to be gainfully employed in spite of my level of advanced education and the confidence in the fact that my worth to my company is on solid ground -- that's called humility. You should try it sometime...or just go outside and step in front of moving traffic, either way.)
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 1 month ago A patron enters a bar and drinks until he is in a drunken stupor. He leaves and while driving home, hits and kills another person.
The view of the entitled valley residents is that it's the bartenders fault for serving the patron all the drinks.
The view of the responsible and common sense tells you it's the fault of the drunken driver.
Blaming GM and Delphi for agreeing to the contracts rather than seeing a constant stream of labor strikes is humorous. Not only that, but how could GM and Delphi be expected to predict that the cost of health care would go up 3 times the rate of inflation?
Can the employees of GM and Delphi read and comprehend profit and loss statements? Did they see GM losing tens of billions and still not do anything to keep GM viable like offer concessions? Did they just think that GM and Delphi losses were irrelevant to them because they had a "contract".
If my company posts a loss, guess what, no bonuses. In the real world, profits matter. When your company isn't making money, then either they adjust their expenses or risk going under. Evidently the employees thought they weren't in the real world. Welcome to it.
Yeah, Jeff, the stock market has given and taken from me. Lost about $350,000 when the internet bubble burst. That's what investing is about, risk and reward not gaurantees. Made that back by 2004 and made some very good investments since then. Been out of the US stock market since 2007 because I saw the bubble ready to pop. I made good money in 2008 when many were losing their shirts. My husband and I could retire now if we so wished.
This will be my last post on this topic. When it degrades into the typical genital references that are so standard for the valley, it's time to exit the discussion.
cambridge (915 comments)posted 1 month ago redvert....I knew eventually we would find something we agreed about.
JennyChan....I wish there were some way you could know what I think about you because for me there are no words.
JeffLebowski (859 comments)posted 1 month ago "Did they just think that GM and Delphi losses were irrelevant to them because they had a ‘contract’?" Contract = legally binding document...so the answer is yes. Cut and dry; yes. Companies aren't held at gunpoint and forced to sign long-term labor agreements and as such take them very, very seriously. Overhead is killing your company? Don't sign the contract and take your chances getting comparable, quality production from scabs. Fault GM and others for not running a smart business (and I have and will continue to do so) from a marketing/sales POV but don't fault the people in production who have no say in how the profit portion of the P&L statement turns out.
Also sweetie -- I don't live in the Valley. I'm from there but have been gone for 10 years. The "Valley mentality" line of thinking is BS, people are people anywhere and Y-town is no different; my point is that where you're concerned maybe it isn't everyone else that's crazy.
HaydenThomas (8 comments)posted 1 month ago Don't let these socialist and commie sympathizers get to you Jenny. Most of us non union Americans understand and agree with your views. They want so badly to blame the management of the companies and absolve the employees of all blame. The truth is quite the opposite and well known. The unions and the employees who benefited from the union stranglehold on the auto companies is now altering history to suit their own purpose. Just like steel and many other industries, the union and non-union employees have killed yet another golden goose and want taxpayers to make up the difference.
TAXPAYERALSO (1 comments)posted 1 month ago I don't know why you think you are the only taxpayers All Delphi and Gm workers and retirees also pay taxes and it would probaby be the first time we received anything from the goverment. also I worked for delphi-gm for 30 years and even with overtime never made 100,000. don't believe everthing the news says
ProAmerican (1059 comments)posted 1 month ago You bring up a good point; we are overtaxed. I believe you'd have been further ahead if you were allowed to keep more of the money you earned. Do you agree unions promote big government and big spending are guilty of robbing you of you hard earned paycheck?
HaydenThomas (8 comments)posted 29 days, 17 hours ago Taxpayeralso seems to forget all the tax breaks that GM and Delphi got. Lordstown got millions in tax breaks. Also the turnpike exits. Just another socialist and commie sympathizer and his first post! LOL.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
This is the socialist mantra. Take money from those of us who work and are successful and give it to the deadbeats and parasites.
redvert (495 comments)posted 29 days, 11 hours ago Hayden, Your post reminded me of some profound words from centuries ago.
In the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor said)
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government." A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy,
Some may disagree but just think about it.
AXLE69 (48 comments)posted 29 days, 8 hours ago Nice attempt to avoid answering the questions I asked,Pro-Conservaterican.With decades under my belt dealing with right wing hypocrites such as yourself I`m not surprised.So reading your non-answer, I guess all the users on here can safely assume you approve of a pro-life whack job taking a doctors life and possibly any innocent people in the vicinity.There is no quid pro quo here.Whether you agree or disagree,abortion is legal in the USA.Murder,unless it`s deemed justifiable homicide is NOT.Is that what you are telling the good vindy.com users?That when a doctor is murdered it`s justifiable homicide because YOU,Pro-Conservaterican oppose legal abortion?So hypothetically if a pro-choice person went off the deep end and murdered some pro-life people protesting outside a clinic,you wouldn`t be saying they deserve the death penalty and whining on here about how our beloved country is now the United Socialists State of America? Dude,I don`t know who you think is falling for your con.Oh,so now you say you weren`t in favor of the wages and benefits you received working at GM.Well why didn`t you determine what you thought was fair and then donate the rest of the money to a worthy charity? That would have been the pro American thing to do.Heck you could have donated it to the EIB network or something.Even that would have been better then the guilty feelings you must have had for 24 yrs accepting wages and benefits that you didn`t believe you deserved.I don`t know how you lived with yourself but maybe that explains your mindset today.You could have even quit and went to work for your beloved Honda where you wouldn`t of had to work beside evil socialists.Hey wait a second,aren`t many UAW members in the NRA,born again Christians and gasp! Republicans? But of course in your feeble little mind every UAW person except yourself of course is Chairman Mao reincarnated.lol...lol...lol
Psst,did you hear the latest? Obama took over GM so he could track you with ONSTAR.Run for your lives........ahahahahahahahahaha
ront (52 comments)posted 28 days, 15 hours ago wonder if anyone read story about american manufacturers sales in japan and korea?
japan and korea for years have stifled amercian imports, while with no interference from us government exported millions of cars to us.
from a first hand personal view point. in the late 80's and early 90's gm spent millions of dollars developing a right hand drive car exclusively for the japanese market. next to the assembly plant were inspectors looking at cars coming off the assembly line. they knocked down every car for some defect. i remember seeing a returned for a paint chip, the size of a pin head, located in an area one had to get down on the ground to see. a dab of touchup paint would have fixed the problem, but this wasn't allowed.
does this sound like fair trade?
AlwaysHope (24 comments)posted 28 days, 13 hours ago ront, maybe that's the difference in quality between American and Japanese autos that everyone keeps debating. Go back and read what you wrote... "they knocked down every car for some defect".
When I buy I brand new car for tens of thousands of dollars, I don't want to drive it off the lot to the nearest Auto Zone for a bottle of touch up paint!
AlwaysHope (24 comments)posted 28 days, 13 hours ago When I buy a brand new car....
ront (52 comments)posted 28 days, 2 hours ago always,
you know of anyone who is perfect? no one builds a perfect product. there are some kinds of defects in all products.
also go back and read what types of defects they found.
ront (52 comments)posted 28 days, 2 hours ago always,
you can get a paint chip driving off the dealers lot.
has anyone read about us manufactuers sales in japan last year. the sales are in the hundreds. japanese sell millions here. the article stated that it not that there is no demand. the japanese government throws all types of road blocks. one amazing one is auditing buyers taxes of import cars.
oh, i did forget to mention, the right hand drive cavelier cost $ 30,000 in japan. twice what us cavelier cost. all due to fact the japanese just didn't want them in the country.
ront (52 comments)posted 28 days, 2 hours ago hayden,
the building of the turnpike exits were a bribe to keep lordstown open.just like many communties and states offer tax breaks to companies to build in there communities. gm came real close in the 90's to closing lordstown.
like vmx and the call center. what will happen after the tax breaks expire? be like the other 2 that moved out of youngstown to the suburbs.
people praise a company getting tax breaks that offer little better than minimum wage jobs that won't be around in few years. delphi has been in the mahoning valley for close to 100 years. gm over 40. and they pay much better than minimum wage.
i really don't understand the hatred for gm and chrysler. it's a done deal. we as tax payers own 60%. i, as a tax payer hope they become some of the most profitable companies in the world.
candystriper (73 comments)posted 25 days, 9 hours ago...the remaining pension funds will transfer to the new GRA...Government Retirement Account...IMHO this was planned years ago by Congress...why do you think they are giving you the next 2 years to pay tax on your IRA's...because if you don't they will move it to the GRA and out of your control.
anothermike (12 comments)posted 25 days, 6 hours ago I have as much compassion as anyone, but it's hard to feel sorry for the crybaby delphi or gm retirees because they are no longer going to receive a free ride. If you are of REAL retirement age, [not 30 and out] the worst case is about 96 bucks a month out of your SS check to cover just about everything including prescriptions. What about the rest of us that paid for health coverage all of our working lives? We are NOT entitled to anything?? You brought home a paycheck better than most for many years and received everything including eye care and dental [which is almost non-existent for others] for your entire family and paid NOTHING. Wonder why others didn't have campers, pep cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, boats,etc. Maybe because they had to pay for health care out of their paycheck and try to save a buck for retirement at 62 or 65, not 55. Sorry folks, what's good for one is good for all. Taxpayers should not take care of some and not others....
Comments
Because they're union members. The spoiled little brats of the Democrat Party. The Dems and the Bamster owe them big time. If they don't get their way by having the taxpayers foot their bill, they will whine, cry, scream, threaten and board George Soros sponsered buses to Washington DC. Strange, Soros in a multi-billionaire and he supports unions and the Dems with huge campaign donations. I thought the rich were Republicans.
First of all let me say, You're right. It shouldn't have to be the taxpayers job to pay for benefits and retirements to people who were supposed to have them secured through their employer. That being said, the employer did not hold up their end of the deal, and like it or not, taxpayer will pay for it one way or another. If we don't have to pay for it this way, most of these retirees will wind up on medicaid and other welfare programs, they are at risk of losing their homes - who pays for that?
Also, please let me clarify one other important point - the union members are NOT the ones we're paying for, they are covered by their precious little unions, and they won't budge. Our taxes are covering for the retired salaried employees. These men and women were told that lifelong benefits and retirement were bundled in as part of their annual salary. They didn't bring home as much as the union guys, but they had assurance that their families were going to be taken care of. They have budgeted their golden years finances with the understanding that they did not have to pay for insurance. Now they are facing $600/mo insurance payments, and their pensions have been drastically reduced!
I don't think the taxpayers should have to pay for it, I believe Delphi should do what they said they were going to, and honor all of the hard work that their salaried employees gave them over the years. The government, should not allow companies to be able to back out of their promises to employees. But because they have, there is no fair way for it to go down. Is it fair that these workers lose what they have earned and worked for for so many years? Is it fair that we have to pay for it? Is it fair that Delphi was allowed to go back on it's promise? None of this is fair... but I'm not seeing what other choice there is.
"Why should taxpayers pick up the tab for GM and Delphi excesses?"
Because government came in and took over GM who made the promises and the courts let Delphi out of Bankruptcy without giving the salaried retirees what they are due. That is why!
This was a very dirty deal and the government drove it to it's settlement. They clearly picked the winners and losers and Delphi salaried retirees are the big losers.
Why was the Delphi bankruptcy settled on the backs of the salaried retirees? That is a much better question than yours.
Don
It is my tax dollars too. Unions saved you from working 10-15 hours a day with low pay, no benefits, and saved your children from working at the age of 14 and 15. Complain all you want, but if GM goes, or Delphi goes so does your job. Delphi and GM employees donated thousands of dollars, went to resturants, bought clothes, bought cars, bought groceries,bought haircuts. If their wages and/or pensions go so does this area. I agree with the excesses of upper management. Just like Pushkar at Forum Health. NOBODY IS WORTH $9000/'wk. I don't hear anyone in the community complaining about that. Pushkar, just like the execs at GM and Delphi, are like weather people they screw up they still get paid and get raises.
lal....you seem to be upset that employees that belong to "precious little unions" aren't getting screwed over the way the salaried employees are. All the union employees are receiving are what they were promised for their life's work. I hope the company makes good on their promises to the salaried employees but your attitude towards the union employees is misguided.
The American Taxpayer should not be saddled with paying for these excesses.The problem is- to a certain extent- outside forces at work which most employers can not control.
The same type of things which happened to our steel industry doomed the American Automakers.
After WW II the Marshall Plan rebuilt Germany and Japan, giving them the latest and best technology then available. Unlike the American companies who rested on their laurels, they continued to refine and improve on the technology. We did not. Instead, we paid our execs big bonuses, gave unions rich benefit packages, 13 weeks vacation every five years and paid handsome dividends to the stockholders. All was well until the early 70's when due to outdated plants, production inefficiencies and high labor costs, we could no longer compete in the developing global market. The final nail in the coffin was the impact of the EPA mandating technologies be implemented which were pure cost items and added nothing to the bottom line. Although we did need to change the way we were doing things in this country regarding the environment, the end result was to kll an industry that provided 100's of thousands of jobs, both directly and indirectly.
The Amercian Auto industry had a rude awaking in the early 70's with the oil embargo. GM, Ford, Chrysler and American Motors all had to scramble to retool and rethink the design of their cars and hastily brought new, smaller cars to market. American Motors disappeared, Chrysler almost did the same except for Lee Iacocca and GM and Ford also suffered. At that time though, they were pretty much the only game in town.
1980's- Enter the Japanese- Honda already had a couple of plants in Marysville, but then Toyota, Nissan and others began building plants here. These (except Honda) where located in right to work states so they did have to contend with the UAW. They paid their employees a fair wage, provided healthcare and installed 401(k) plans instead of the very expensive Defined Benefit Plans that GM, Ford and Chrysler were saddled with. These plants were designed to compete in a global economy. They were not saddled with the costly benefit plans that were negotiated in the 50's, 60's and 70's, when there was virtually no competition.
As fuel prices stabilized, consumers began to again demand larger, heavier vehicles and the automakers began to market these in earnest. Soon most every family was driving SUV's, pick-up trucks and other less fuel efficient vehicles. The auto execs where making big salaries, the UAW benefit packages continued to be rich, and stockholders were happy with their dividends. Unlike the Steel Industry, the automakers did reinvest in new plants, equipment and technology.
2008- Gas prices skyrocket to over $4.00 per gallon and the automakers were stuck with hundreds of thousands of vehicles that nobody wanted. There is no way anyone could have predicted that.
There are $161,000,000.00 million reasons these pensions should be picked up, they all directly affect the Mahoning Valley's economy. With out this pick up, YSU has determined that the Mahoning Valley will lose $161 million dollars, we can't afford a hit of this magnitude regardless of your feelings for or about Unions and the Democratic Party.
it does amaze me all the compliants about tax dollars used to help american companies. i never hear any compliants about tax dollars used the lure japanese, korean, and german companies to build assembly plants here.
where is the outrage? our tax dollars being used, while the profits go offshore.
the same thing about the new call center. barely above minimum wage jobs are celebrated, while living wage jobs are vilified.
i really don't understand it.
Didn't get to finish my point earlier(3000 character limit). I do feel the Salaried employees did get the shaft and they shoud be supported in their bid to have their benefits restored.
I am not anti-union. Was a member of the UAW at lordstown from 1971-1986, but their main focus is to protect the jobs of people who don't want to work. They would bargain away hundreds of legitimate greivances to get a handful of loads back to work.
To answer artful96's question- remember the DFAS center we were supposed to get here? 10,000 good paying jobs. What happened to them? Instead of re-electing GHWB, the valley sent Billary to the White House and our 2 esteemed DEMOCRATIC Senators- Metzenbaum & Glenn sent 5,000 jobs to Cleveland and the other 5,000 to Columbus. The Democratic party really gives a s**t about this area. All they really want is the voters here to blindly keep sending do nothings (Trafficant excluded) to Congress. We get virtually nothing in return. At least Jim worked both sides of the aisle to get a few things for us! Of course you saw what his party did for him in return.
It is my understanding that GM wanted to honor
the benefits of the hourly retirees, but the car czar
and Mr. OBama said NO. It is different with the
salaried. Say what you want about the unions, but
at least we have someone to fight for us and not
have to pay high priced lawyers.
Yeah ront, we should no longer purchase anything made by Chrysler since the profits now go to Italy. Then the valley begs V&M to come here with millions of dollars in incentives. Is V&M American?
The writer from Liberty is correct. GM's and Delphi's problems are a direct result of the employees of GM and Delphi and the taxpayers shouldn't be bailing them out at all. Don't believe that 161 million claim either, it isn't true.
Minimum wage jobs are all this valley is ever going to get. The political leaders in this valley have no vision or leadership abilities and most want their palms greased for any assistance they might offer.
Remember Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School where he told the business professor he must be trying to build a plant in Fantasy Land? Seems Rodney must have done some business in Youngstown.
Compare the Mahoning Valley with Akron/Canton. They lost a huge industrial base in the tire industry. They have come back nicely because the community leaders have vision and work with prospective business opportunities- not against them and with LOWER INCOME TAX RATES!
Obama has no say in the matter. The company filed bankruptcy years ago and the filing took it's course. The bankruptcy law is what it is. To say that Obama is keeping these people from getting their pensions is ridiculous.
Hey SkyKing, what did Traficant do for this area? The white elephant center that will strangle Youngstown forever? A couple of pork project court houses? What major employer did he bring in? You Traficant suckers are a hoot.
Palsmaster- your argument held water from 1900 to 1941. I worked many 10 hour+ days at Lordstown between 1971 and 1985. Most mandatory, some voluntary.
CamBilge, The Bamster does have responsibility is the matter. Who nationalized the auto industry, Henry Ford? He has to pay back all the socialist unions for their votes; the UAW, SEIU, NEA and the AFL-CIO. Yes these overpaid socialist zealots were promised much and that's one reason GM and Chrysler went down the tubes. Payback time Bammy!
to jennychan,
from your post i still don't see the outrage of companies getting our tax dollars to help them make a profit. if you think it's ok for some, why not all?
your other comment about trafficant and y-towns white elephant. when he got that grant, it was to be for improvement throughtout the city, not to build a sports and convention center. some so called experts thought an arena/ convention center would be a boost for the city. many people showed that such venues owned by local governments don't make money. the mayor at the time, george mckelvey was against it at first. he was hounded by the press and many citizens for trying ti stiffle grow in the city. now the center is a definitet money loser, people want ot crucify mckelvey for the boondogle
ut the city
It's not all about what is happening to Delphi Salary Retirees,,,,It's also about what can/will happen to other
retiree groups from other businesses since the door
has been left open now! Could be you next!
you know it's a simple question. do you agree with tax incentives for any and all companies, or just certain ones you may like?
We have essentially become a country of entitlement. Everyone's entitled to prosper just by being born American. Especially white Americans think they are entitled.
Also, the money for the white elephant center was initially gotten for that exact purpose. Later, some bright people tried to see if it could be used for things other than the center. The government said no it must be used for its original purpose, a white elephant. So ront is incorrect asserting that it was for general improvements anywhere.
Tax breaks for companies to relocate here is a double edged sword. You take money that probably would be better spent elsewhere to lure call center $10 hour jobs. The schools suffer, libraries suffer, everything suffers. The worst tax breaks are for goofy projects like the white elephant center. It now is a noose around the neck of Youngstown. They can barely pay the interest on the 12 million. The place will never make enough to pay itself off. Giving tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires to lure them anywhere is a fools game and immorality at the highest level.
Tax incentives are for areas that can't offer anything else of value. That defines the valley completely. An uneducated workforce, bad weather, unionism, corruption in business and politics, organized crime, (somewhat less than before) violent crime, a city school system in shambles, drugs, and regional lack of cooperation.
Jenny, Please, not just white Americans, a large portion of all Americans expect a handout. Rich, poor, male, female, black, white, etc. Especially in a backward pro blue collar labor union like Youngstown. Even large "American" corporations expect to be subsidized by the taxpayers for re-locating overseas. We need a return to capitalism, our Constitution and republic. God, prayer and guts would be the best course we can take to restore our individual rights, prosperity and morals.
The entitlement expectations for blacks and whites is totally different. Whites feel that they are entitled to good paying middle class jobs. They feel that just because mommy and daddy had a middle class job and lifestyle, they are entitled to the same. Children of GM and Delphi employees for years felt like they were entitled to a job there. Kids of public workers feel entitled to public jobs. Blacks feel entitled at a much lower level. See the Delphi salaried people who for years made way more money than most people in the valley now feel like they are entitled to taxpayer funded pensions and health care. The "I deserve it" mentality flourishes here. The Delphi and GM employees are a major cause of their own companies demise and are therefore entitled to nothing.
White men are the most discriminated, ostracized, belittled, hated and mistreated group in America. But when you've led the world for 6,000+ years, it's not hard to understand.
All races of peoples working for GM and Delphi believe they are entitled to superior wages, benefits and working conditions.
However, the majority of white men ARE entitled to good paying jobs because WE deserve them.
A few weeks ago when Delphi was exiting bankruptcy and all of us were debating Delphi within the box, the Manila Times reported that exact day, China just just approved the purchase of Delphi China (the largest and only parts manufacturer in China) by GM.
So here we are debating the crumbling of our way of life, while propped up GM is insuring the employment of others.
I think all of us need to get out of this box and start finding out what is happening to us globally.
jennychan, i see you are waffling about tax breaks. if you give to one, how can you not give ot all?
funny, i still don't see any outrage about tax give aways to companies, just the outrage of a few. you are either for it for all; or against it.
Delphi salaried retirees please quit whining about what I, the taxpayer, owe you. You all were over paid and now you think you are entitled to some special treatment. Take GM to court and fight it out. Quit looking for a bailout from me the tax payer. Get on with your lives.
It's the survival of Mahoning Valley Stupid!!!
Please. You played that card to many times. So I will pay more taxes so you can have your fat pension so the Mahoning Valley can survive? That Mr. Unionforever Earns you the Mr. Stupid award.
Quit whining and get to work.
Everybody cries bad union, bad union, bad union, BULL !!! The union is not the reason these problems are here. Don't be stupid. Look who really has the money. The fat CEO'S the major stock holder's and the board of directors. You want pay back go to the one's that caused it. I hired into GM in 1978 in a nonunion yes a nonunion plant in Alabama. They agreed to pay me X # of $ with pension and health benifets, If I worked for them. They took that money and partied and bonused it into thier pockets. Now its our fault that cars are priced to high and they don't want to pay up BULL!!!!Get the real story before you start pointing fingers
Dont we all go to work everyday for an end result? The end result for the GM and Delphi workers was that when they were hired, they were told that if they worked for 30+ years that they would be given a pension, life insurance (for a price) and also that they would have life time hospitalization. If they would have told anyone of us that we would have taken the job, to secure a future for our families, and if you say that is not true, I would have to question you. Those people, regardless of hourly wage, stayed and worked side by side with the salary persons also, who were promised the same deal.....My question is to everyone...if it were you would you have stayed for all those years to have nothing after 30 yrs. or would you have gone to another job that provided what GM and Delphi had promised to their workers. I personally would have looked elsewhere, my family and its future is what I work to take care of, so if it is for a company that is willing to pay X amount of dollars per hour and promise me a secure life after I retire, who would not take that deal. So please lets not bash the GM and Delphi workers for doing what we all would do if we could.
ront, In an ideal world, there should be no tax breaks for business or individuals. However, this is hardly an ideal world. I would agree to tax breaks for companies that bring enough to the table to offset the breaks in a short period of time. No breaks for sports arenas. No bailouts of failed industries like GM and Chrysler who will never pay any of it back. The banks are another story. They will pay the TARP back. Some have already done so. Delphi and GM workers are the main cause of the companies financial problems and should not be bailed out by taxpayers.
Dakota, if my company promised me a lifetime pension and health care and retirement after 30 years as well as wages higher than most, I'd have to laugh and tell myself not to believe these fools and make sure I put a large amount away for the day when they reneged on those promises. Anyone who believes the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow claim, is a fool who winds up just like the Delphi and GM retirees.
Dakota, the government sends you a social security statement every year too. Do you believe that also or do you save more because those promises are going to be broken too? The nation is littered with people not bright enough to understand that politicians, CEO's, and union leaders are not to be believed so blindly that you risk your future on them.
jennychan,
strange that u you knock gm and chrysler. all the years they were making huge porifits in usa, they investied billions in china. now gm is the biggest car company in china. only thing, all that money they made here, they will not bring back profits made in china to usa. now tell me, what does that have to do with the employees in the usa?
ront, incorrect as usual. GM is investing here in the US. They just committed millions to Lordstown for the Cruze. They just aren't able to turn a profit in the US, especially in the small car market.
What about globalism do you not understand? If GM wants to have the ability to sell in foreign countries they need to show a commitment to building those cars there. The foreign makers did the same here.
If GM's and Chryslers cost structure is too high in the US, then what do you think will be the result? It's not like those jobs require some skill that only a few people have! If you think assembling a car is worth $100,000 with benefits, then I think you are in for a rather large surprise.
Jenny,
There were literally no such things as 401(k) plans until like 1980. If your company promised you a pension 30+ years ago the economic climate was markedly different and you wouldn't have hesitated that they would make good on their promise. The same types of assurances then as compared to now are apples-to-oranges, as are pots of gold and legal responsibilities.
Hey Jeff, the comparison is completely valid. The government sends me that yearly social security fable and I laugh and file it away. Do I really believe that when I'm 67, I'll get that? Of course not. I'm smart enough to see that financial projections out 30 years or more are fabrications at best and intentional lies at worst. Anyone dumb enough to buy the pension and health care for life promise is setting themselves up for failure. But, Americans are notoriously stupid enough to buy such snake oil. The same promises were told to the steel workers and how did that turn out? So how smart are the auto workers to believe the same promises? Not very! Maybe they still believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy?
So EEs of the auto industry 35 years ago should have learned the lesson from what happened to EEs in the steel industry...which hadn't yet collapsed? That is an invalid premise on which to build an argument.
I don't dispute the SS bit, as it is currently set up I won't see a dime either yet have paid into it for almost 20 years; my point is that when some of these people were hired the system was set up to succeed and they had no reason to doubt that premise. People retired on pensions quite regularly.
jenny did you know gm sells more buicks in china than they sell in usa.
you either missed my point, or chose to ignore it. profits made in usa were invested in china, a wise business move, since it will be the largest car market in the world soon.
why won't a multinatial corporation try to balance their world wide operations, especially since seed money inveated in china was made in usa?
and i still haven't seen the outrage about tax breaks to companies. like the new call center in y-town. the owners recieve tax breaks, buy the low paid employees have to pay their taxes. that sound fair to you?
Figure it out ront. If GM is making money outside the US and losing money in the US, where did they get the money to invest in Lordstown? Obviously outside the US.
GM sells more Buicks in China for 2 reasons. They entered the Chinese market before most other manufacturers and China has way more people than the US. GM's sales in China will eventually be hurt as more companies enter that market and the Chinese figure out the poor quality of GM products.
I addressed the tax breaks issue. Cities like Youngstown with all the crime, corruption, uneducated workforce, poor inner city schools needs all the carrots they can dangle to get anything to come here. Should they just close the city down altogether?
jenny,
for an accountant, that was pretty stupid comment. if you invested money, wouldn't you want a return?
do you not think that the chinese government didn't kick in money to build in china?
if the city of youngstown is so corrupt, why not shut it down? they are wasting tax dollars, which is worse than a corpoation wasting invetors dollars s
GM thinks they have the small car market finally figured out. They've gotten concessions to help on the cost side and think they can sell the Cruze at a profit. Time will tell. They don't have a very good small car track record. I imagine the tax breaks the state routinely gives them to keep the UAW electing Democrats had some effect. GM and Chrysler will be history within 5 years so it won't matter then.
jenny,
i just read your poat again. you sound like an elitist. the comment aboujt poor, uneducated workforce needing carrots thrown there way. what's wrong with companies treating there employees fairly and with dignity. that'why unions started. it wasn't about a paycheck.
and don'think i am a union supporter at all costs. unions have a place. they had a big hand in enacting child labor laws. they fought for the 40 hour week so the hard working person had time to spend whth his family instead of working from dawn to dusk, 6 days a week. and definitely some have been corrupt. the teamsters the biggest example.
another thought. you are an account. what will you say the days your clients tell you, i can get this work done in india at a third of the cost. it's happening in more and more white collar jobs. lawyers are exporting law firms grunt work to india. things like basic research and writing briefs. evne doctor are being outsourced. mant tests are examed in india, and results faxed or e mailed back to usa.
Ront, why do we put up with the federal govt. subsidizing "American" corporations when they re-locate overseas?
Unions were a benefit until they sprinted to the far left; that defeats their members from profiting. They are in favor of higher taxes, illegal immigration, national health insurance, etc.
pro,
i agree unions have gone off track. corporations are what's called pure captilism. go where they can make the most profit, the hell with everyone else.
a lot of this started many years ago, but really accelerated when clinton signed the nafta bill.
i remember when ross perot ran for president. he said all you will hear is a giant sucking sound when jobs are moved offshore. many thought he was crazy' but look what happened. and he sure isn't a democrat.
if you remember when bill clinton ran for president, he cam to the mahoning valley making all kinds of promises about creating government jobs. after he was elected in in 1992, he forgoot about the mahoning valley. but then in 1996 he came back and make the same empty promises, and people voted for him again. pandering to an industrial area hit hard by job loses. desparate that their elected leaders would care about us citizens. guess clinton got to much money from the chinese. he also sold military hardware and secret to the chinese. here it is almost 20 years later. do you see any of this promised jobs?
pro,
i have to tell you. i was am an uaw member. i have been for more than 40 years. about 20 years ago i started to become upset with the union. i haven't voted pro for a contract formore than 20 years. back then i told people changes needed to made. health care one big one. it's true changes have been made. maybe not soon enough. i wish the media would dig deeper into the changes made instead of keep talking about things from 20 years ago.
if you also remember back in the 90's when lordstown came very close to closing, how there was such a outpouring in the news that we have to do all we can to save lordstown. at the time i almost wished lordstown would close. then it would give all the people who hated us something else to post comments on boards like this today
i got sickened when i would see legitment grievances tossed out to help slackers and no goods keep their jobs. 99% of the uaw are hard working people who care about the product they build.
many people who hate lordstown forget that in 1966; there was a longer line of people quittingthan being hired. for all those that bemoan the fact that we don't work for our pay had a good chance to be hired then, but chose not to. fact is a couple of years ago when gm was hiring; out of the first group, most quit, some not even lasting one day on the line. they said, you can't pay me enough to work like that.
so i say, don't knock the assembly line worker to you walk in their shoes. the cars don't get put together by themselves.
Jenny;
You have it right.
The Delphi retirees were part of the problem and if they feel that strongly about their situation they should take it to court. Quit asking the taxpayers for your bailout. Not my problem you worked for a company that went bankcrupt. Many people worked for companies that went bankrupt. Fight it in court, quit whing and get a job.
HHHMMNNN???
STAN,
Where are you? Please comment.
Jeff Lebowski,
We agree with you: many of us will never see a dime of Social Security Benefits. [Some people started working at 12 years of age.] Our elders are on fixed-incomes, barely surviving daily living. False promises have been made in various companies, throughout The United States.
@ ALL: How do we fix the current system? How do we collectively assist those in need?
Please VOTE on Tuesday, November 3, 2009.
Ront, thank you for you comments. The problem is, most UAW members are ultra-liberal; how could anyone vote for a presidental candidate who traveled to Moscow in 1967, during the VietNam conflict to give comfort to our enemies? That was Bill Clinton. How can they support taxing the rich when their wages and benefits exceed MBA graduates? The UAW and other union members believe the very economic system paving the way for their prosperity, capitalism, is evil.
I agree with your complaint, the UAW protects scumbags who should have been thrown out of GM Lordstown by the seat of their pants; that's protecting members' rights?
I've been unhappy with the socialist union activities for a long time: promoting a minimum wage, pro-choice, gay rights, pro illegal alien rights, etc. It's no wonder less than 8% of privately employed workers choose to belong to a union.
The good UAW members should have thrown their elected officials out by electing reliable representatives so it could represent them instead of working against them.