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Public vs. private: Where does health insurance stand?
A national survey says the cost to private-sector employers for health insurance is less than half that paid by state and local government.
By ED RUNYAN
VINDICATOR STAFF WRITER
What used to be a manufacturing industry standard — a zero worker contribution to health care — is a thing of the past.
As American companies saw their profits dwindle, and their health-care bills skyrocket, many downsized their work force and their health-care plans. Today, workers at most businesses pay upward of 20 percent of their health-care bill — if they have health insurance at all.
Government, however, has a long way to go to match its business counterparts, a Vindicator survey of local government health-care benefits shows.
On a national level, health care is now on the front burner as the Obama administration seeks to provide health care to up to 46 million Americans not now covered and Congress considers taxing health insurance plans costing more than $13,000 per year.
It’s also a hot-button issue for local government, especially Warren, which has been hit hard by income tax declines and health-care cost increases.
Just last week, Warren workers tentatively approved paying part of their health-care premiums for the first time. But that came after the city already had laid off 25 police officers, 11 firefighters and 20 other city employees to balance the city’s budget.
Health-care history
Paul Heltzel, a Trumbull County commissioner known for his knowledge of the business world, said government health care in the area has evolved over the past 40 years, but has always been a step behind business.
During World War II, private industry started offering benefits, including health care, to attract workers at a time when the federal government controlled wages but didn’t control benefits.
By the 1980s, government workers had achieved equality with private industry on health care, Heltzel said.
But businesses have cut their benefits in the years that followed, as they fell on hard times. Government is again following the private-industry lead, Heltzel said.
Mahoning County employees started paying 10 percent of their health care in 2003. Trumbull County employees started contributing 10 percent in 2007.
Tony Paglia, vice president for government affairs for the Youngstown/Warren Regional Chamber of Commerce, said government bodies need to be forced to make some of the same adjustments regarding health care that private industry has made.
“We at the chamber think the governments need to cut costs by having their employees pay their share as private industry does,” he said.
Government workers gain
One of the most comprehensive survey of wages and benefits nationally is in a report from the U.S. Department of Labor. It showed last December that an average state and local government worker earned substantially more in 2008 in both wages and benefits than the average worker in private industry.
The wages and benefits of the average government worker were $39.25 per hour, while the figure for a private-industry worker was $27.35.
The survey said the average government worker’s benefits cost taxpayers $13.38 per hour; benefits of an average private-industry worker were $7.98.
In the area of health insurance, the hourly cost for a public employee was $4.25; the health-insurance cost for the average private-industry worker was less than half that at $1.95 per hour.
Susan E. Quimby, former Mahoning County human resources director, said there are still government employees who earn relatively low wages. “Having a good benefit plan is definitely an incentive to be able to get good employees and keep them,” she said.
John Filak, regional director of the Youngstown office of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees union, said many of the statistics quoted are probably accurate, but rather than focus on the need for workers to compete in a “race to the bottom” of the wage-and-benefits scale, it might be time to look at the reason why private industry has found itself unable to provide decent wages and benefits.
“Unfortunately, the private sector has been going backward at a remarkable rate,” Filak said. “While public employee benefits have stayed the same or gotten slightly better, private industry has cut to the bone.”
As for public sector wages now being higher than private, one reason for that is that public sector employees average about 15 personal days per year. Most private-sector employees don’t get sick leave, he said.
Private industry lags
Private industry doesn’t readily share information with the public about its benefit offerings, but anyone who talks to friends and relatives knows all too well that standard health-care benefits are anything but standard today, with some companies requiring employees to pay half or even all of their health-insurance premium.
The Obama administration said early this year that more than half of all personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills.
Conversely, government workers don’t appear to be having such problems.
The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics said in October 2008 that 87 percent of state and local government employees have access to medical-care benefits, 55 percent have access to dental-care benefits and 38 percent have access to vision-care benefits.
By contrast, only 71 percent of private-industry workers have access to medical-care benefits, 47 percent have access to dental care and 28 percent have access to vision care.
National surveys of employers in the public and private sector show that workers who do have access to health insurance through their employer are paying larger and larger amounts for it.
A study by the Kaiser Family Foundation said the average cost of a family health-care plan in 2008 for a worker in a company with less than 200 employees was $12,091 per year, with the employee contributing $4,101 of that, or 34 percent.
Kaiser, a nonprofit, private foundation focusing on health-care issues, said the cost for an employee working for a company of 200 or more workers was $12,973, with the employee paying $2,982 of it — or 22 percent.
Another survey, conducted annually by Stamford-Conn.-based professional services company Towers Perrin, said its research of 500 mostly large companies and cities across the U.S. in September 2007 showed that the average cost of health care was $9,144, with employees paying about $2,064 of it — 22.6 percent.
The report notes that those companies performing the worst during fall 2007 were the ones with the highest cost-per-employee for health insurance, with the highest-performing companies paying $8,532 per employee and low-performing companies paying an average of $10,200 per employee for health care.
The report notes that employers were paying 39 percent more for health care in 2007 than they did in 2003, while employees were contributing 61 percent more than in 2003.
Controlling costs
A representative from the Ashtabula factories of Cristal Global, a chemical company, spoke in Howland last year about the aggressive wellness plan he runs there that has resulted in a zero increase in the health-care bill for more than six years.
Tim Moga, a nurse and occupational health coordinator for the factories, said one of the keys is a mandatory physical for all workers every two years to catch problems at their early stages. Employees are also offered health information on a regular basis.
Jason Loree, Boardman Township administrator, said one of the things the township has done to reduce health-care costs is make the effort to have the same language involving health care in all employee contracts.
Boardman’s union employees pay 10 percent of premiums, while nonunion employees pay 15 percent, he said.
The two police bargaining units pay 6 percent, but both are in negotiations with the administration.
By having fewer employees this year than in 2008 and by switching from Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield to Medical Mutual of Ohio, the township’s health-care costs have decreased from about $2 million to about $1.7 million, Loree said.
Dr. Robert Zorn, Poland schools superintendent, said the district pays about $1.8 million in annual health-care costs. That will change Sept. 1 when all the schools in the county insurance consortium, which includes Poland, will change how spouses are covered.
The move shifts spouses of district employees off district plans if the spouses have access to benefits for less than $300 per month for single coverage where they work.
Richard Denamen, superintendent of the Mahoning County Educational Service Center, which runs the county health insurance consortium, said the consortium has encouraged employees to identify health problems early by offering $25 gas cards to employees who receive a routine mammogram or colonoscopy or complete an online health-risk assessment.
An expensive struggle
It’s more difficult for government bodies to force employees to take aggressive steps to improve their health — such as requiring an employee to submit to a health assessment — than it is for private industry because school employees are generally protected by union contracts, Denamen said.
Health-care costs are a major problem in the Youngstown City School District, Treasurer William Johnson says.
“Everyone’s struggling with it,” he said, suggesting that every politician in the country is working on the issue. It’s a cost factor that forces some people to delay their retirement plans, he said.
“We are in the upper range of what we provide,” he said, referring to the cost and extent of benefits the city school district provides for its employees.
The bill comes to about $10 million a year for a program that covers medical expenses, as well as prescription, dental and vision coverage. Youngstown administrators pick up 10 percent of their coverage cost while other employees pay 5 percent.
“It is a generous plan,” Johnson said, noting that the level of employee cost sharing isn’t as high as other school districts.
In July, the city of Youngstown will enter the fourth year of a base salary wage freeze for all employees. The city pays $7.2 million a year for health insurance coverage for about 750 employees covered by it.
Employees, except those in the secretarial and clerical union, pay 10 percent of their premium, about $780,000 a year. The secretarial and clerical union members pay 7 percent of their costs. That’s because the union is working without a contract.
Unions that signed contracts with the city in the past two years agreed to have their members increase their contributions from 7 percent to 10 percent. About five years ago, city workers contributed nothing toward their health insurance premium costs.
“We check for the best rates and shop around for the best prices,” said Kyle Miasek, the city’s deputy finance director. “Unfortunately, many of our employees are older so it drives up the cost. But the rates we have are competitive and fair.”
X Several Vindicator staff writers contributed to this report.
cambridge (903 comments)posted 4 months, 15 days agoNonsocialist....Thanks for answering my comment. I would just like to make the point that there are a few conservatives that post here, that if you disagree with them on any point then: "you have your hand out", "you're looking for a free ride", "you're UN-American", "You are a follower of Hitler etc.".
That's gets real old. You could post a well thought out comment and express your opinion. I might agree with some of it or none of it and it could give me a different angle to look at. But when someone starts with the "well then you....!" That just turned me off to anything that person had to say. Everyone should just stick to what they think and let others express their own thoughts. I don't need anyone telling me what I believe. I'm more than capable of doing that myself.
Peace.
Nonsocialist (319 comments)posted 4 months, 15 days ago Cambridge,
Amen brother.
It goes both ways. JennyChan called me a liar. Somehow though, I'll forge ahead. We have a very divided nation, and the differences seem to grow firmer over time.
This website is a great medium for the exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. It works best when the discussion is civil and intellectual. I do wish that the Vindicator itself was more balanced. I think they would attract a larger market share if the appeal was broader.
Peace and Good Health.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 4 months, 15 days ago Nonsocialist, if you want to have a discussion of ideas, I'm all for it. When you post false information about the cancer mortality of Canada, then you open yourself up to be called a liar because it WAS A LIE.
Just saying something doesn't make it true. If you can back it up with facts from reliable sources kudos.
Conveniently, you didn't comment about this.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st...
Kind of refutes your claims about the Canadian health care being a mess doesn't it.
So you make a claim and then when someone shows you to be wrong, (liar) you just ignore it and then commiserate with Cambridge about how polarized the country is. If your side provided facts instead of bullsh*t, the anger and disagreements wouldn't be so feverish.
Nonsocialist (319 comments)posted 4 months, 15 days ago For the final time:
CTV is state-sponsored media. Find an unbiased and reputable source of information. Such as the NBER:
Lose the hate, it's unattractive. I've responded only in case any potential voters somehow find merit in your vitriol.
timOthy (160 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago NOBS , Thank you for correcting me about Gov. employees in paying into Social Security . Then leaving it . I'm sure it was better for them to do so. But you hit on a point (DOUBLE DIPPING.) That's an ongoing problem for us taxpayers to understand. When you retire to most of us working stiffs that means your done with your PRIMARY work. Not Gov. workers ! Let me get my pension and keep working and recieve my normal pay . What about the kid coming out of school and doesn't have a PRIMARY JOB ? Why not give them a chance ? Come on ! Weather one has Morals or Not . The right thing to do is RETIRE and give someone a chance to suceed in their career that just begining . Not be your typical Gov. worker !
timOthy (160 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago Education voter, I'm glad the Govenor is back representing to people of South Carolina after his DISAPPEARING ACT. Where do you REPUBLICANS get that kind of Education ? Leave Five days for a DIDDLE ! Must of been good. The tax payers didn't get any enjoyment though. Do we get a turn ?
timOthy (160 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago People of the Tri-County area ( Col. Mah. & Trum.) I read an article in the P.D. about members of Congress chasing profits while making policy ! Our Senator C.Wilson sold ( $15,001 to 50,000 ) worth of Huntington Bancshares the same day Huntinton Bank got 1.4 Billion. Wilson claimed he had a Professional Money Manager handling his money. What gets me is how did those Managers know to sell stock on the same day ? NoBS Boy ! Is this the Two-facedness your talking about ? Maybe the Goverment should hire Pro. Money Managers instead of Funeral Drirector's that pose as Senators. Wilson you've lost my vote and I hope your KISS AS Job !
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago Even Nonsocialist own website doesn't confirm his preconceived opinions about the Canadian health care system. I suggest you learn to read and comprehend! Yeah, anything that proves the Canadian health care system as the equal or better than the US system is state sponsored and biased. Unlike the totally unbiased right wing whacko sites.
From YOUR site: Although health status, measured in various ways is similar in both countries, mortality/incidence ratios for various cancers tend to be higher in Canada.
So which cancers? Of course it's the ones that show the Canadian system not quite as good as the US!!!
Cuba has a better system for womens breast cancer.
So your site says that health status measured in VARIOUS ways is similar in both countries. And yet, the US pays twice as much for the "similar" health care.
You whackos are really funny with your "proof" that is nothing more than bull.
Then when proven wrong your standard line is it's the media not reporting correctly or state sponsored.
Is Limbaugh state sponsored since he is controlled by a mega corporation?
The hate is for people not bright enough to know the difference between truth and fiction but smart enough to put decent verbiage together. People who buy into anything that supports their preconceived notions and claim everything else is state sponsored propaganda.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago I suppose the world health organization is a liberal controlled media too?
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthra...
NoBS (346 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago timOthy, the great majority of public workers don't double-dip the way you're saying. High school principals, for instance, can and often do retire and then go work for a year or two as a principal at another school, or in another school system, but cops, firemen, road workers, and office workers don't do that, and there aren't even any provisions for doing it.
Public servants must pay into Social Security, but can draw next to nothing out of it when they do retire. How is that "fair?" They also pay into their own pension system, and do get that. How would you like to pay into two systems but only be able to draw out of one when you retire?
Kids coming out of school around here have a tough time even finding a job flipping burgers. Anybody who has a job is holding on to it waiting to see what happens to the economy next. I feel bad for the kids who can't find work, but no matter where I work, public or private, I'm not quitting before I'm ready so they can have a shot at my job. When I do retire, believe me, I won't be back doing my job - if I would have wanted to keep doing it I wouldn't have retired!
NoBS (346 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago Hey timmy - Charlie Wilson never did have my vote. Anybody who can't even figure out how the Getting Legal Signatures On My Petitions thing works, can't have too much on the ball.
Education_Voter (143 comments)posted 4 months, 14 days ago timOthy took me for a Republican! :-)
andersonathan (383 comments)posted 4 months, 13 days ago You can take this Government Health Care or Obamacare, these bailouts, Government Motors, This Cap and trade crap. And stick in some crack heads pipe and make sure ACORN is there to register them to vote and stick it.
And you might as well take your 17Th district congressmen only if you can pry him off of Pelosi's mammary gland or one of Obama's lower appendages and book him a one way ticket were they like socialist.
Other than that ask a vet about government run health care, talk to some Canadians or better yet fly to Europe and ask a few people over there. This country is going down the crapper faster than most think, spending leads to inflation and one thing is for sure Obama won't raise your taxes one dime but he might raise them a few thousand dimes.
JennyChan (107 comments)posted 4 months, 13 days ago Hey, Nathan, how many Canadians or Europeans have you talked to? Our company has offices all over the world so I talk to them all the time. Nearly all of them are extremely happy with their health care and wouldn't change to a privatized system like the US's for all the tea in China. I was up in Vancouver last year and the one thing that Canadians don't understand is why Americans think they don't love their health system and how some Americans can really believe the propaganda that they are fed here.
You and your right wing whackos really need to get out of the Valley a little and quit parroting the Limbaugh/Fox crowd.
peggy6 (5 comments)posted 4 months, 11 days ago To All Of You Out There...stop pointing your fingers at each other and saying such things to one another. We live in the greatest country in the world...with free speech . This country is in a mess because of most of the people running this country. Both Democrats & Republicans and also the Independents. GREED is the name of the game. It seems everyone is out for themselves and don't care about there fellow man. We all want health care....it just seems there is no one who knows how or what to do to get there. All American people should have health care. We should all have the same kind. It should be non-profit to keep the cost down. My personal opinion is a one payer system like Canada and Germany (the ones ' I personally know about ) . But that is one idea....there is alot of ideas out there...what we need is a strong leader who suggests a few good ones and then let the American people VOTE on the one that most people feel is best. Or have a one payer non profit payer system and people who don't want it can opt out. God said the poor will always be with us. Maybe if we could talk and have a decent debate instead of pointing fingers and name calling we the people can figure this health care situation out our selves. I'm sure everyone knows someone who has lost their health care, jobs, families, homes and etc. so lets get serious and try and find a way that everyone is covered with health care. Congress must be fired.
Nonsocialist (319 comments)posted 4 months, 10 days ago To underscore the point further:
www.foxnews.com/search-results/.../healt...
How does it make sense to adopt a universally failed model?
Does anyone see a pattern here? Government does reckless stuff that increases their power over you, like say take over the mortgage, banking, and auto industry....and then your health care. Do you not see the consequences of government dependence? Do you think they're going to look out for you when they own you?
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Comments
If the employees of government would think for a minute about how the rest of us perceive their benefit package, they might be inclined to allow some level of reduction or accept some sort of personal participation in their own health care program.
But, as we all know, government employees believe that they are entitled to everything and that their employers,(Us), are not even entitled to curteous, efficient assistance when we ask them to do the jobs, for which they are paid so well.
Time for government employees to pay 30% like the rest of us. UHC means everyone pays the same including the government employees.
Governmnet employers are one of the few businesses in this country that can actually determine and manipulate how much revenue they receive per year. Most government benefits are on a higher scale than the private sector because so much of the government is funded by the private sectore while almost no portion of the private sector is funded by the government.
Have you ever heard of a broke politician?
The private sector may make more money then those with government jobs, however, I have yet to find a government employee who spends the same amount of hours working as their private sector counterpart. Most salaried professionals put in way more than 40 hours a week at their jobs. If you factored in the number of hours worked with the salary they make, the hourly rate would be greatly reduced.
By the way, small business owners already pay taxes on their health benefits.
Our troubled economy and health care system is tied to the "world market" concept.
Open competition with imports has forced domestic private industry to cut expenses to the bone. Not only have employers cut hours, but many strong companies that had health plans such as 90/10 are going to 80/20 and 70/30. Some companies are now cutting out health care for retirees.
As a nation, we must stop and think what we are doing to ourselves when we put our greed for a lower price ahead of other considerations. This obsession over lowest price overlooks quality or service or value or durability. It has forced domestic manufacturing to lower their standards, reduce quality inspections, and bring in new hires at lower wages, resulting in inferior products. Meanwhile, importing countries are pocketing huge sums of our cash and not providing benefits or wages even close to what we offer in this country.
The time has come not to nationalize health care, but to establish import duties and slow this progressive and dangerous dergregation of our lifestyle for the sake of political correctiveness with the "world market".
Why should we, as a nation of hard working people, lower our standards to satisfy a "world market" which is trying to take as much cash out of us and enrich themselves at our expense? They don't care about us and many don't even like us, so why should we care about them? We are only hurting ourselves, our families and our futures.
Is anyone surprised that Boardman is the highest cost township in Mahoning County? The audit tells us that and suggest how to control those costs. Have any of the recommendations been implemented? Of course not. I've been telling you this for years now. Past trustees gave away the inheritance monies to the employees and especially the DeBartolo inheritance millions. Nice sweet contracts that included salary increases beyond what the private sector was getting. Pensions and Health care the Cadillac of the state. Refusal of the employees to take concessions to prevent layoffs so they can hold the township taxpayers hostage for levy passage. The township is nearing financial collapse. We're running a township based on inheritance dollars that are unstable. Paying way too much for employees to the detriment of any other spending. Get ready for another levy soon folks.
As a former gov't employee I see both sides of the arguement.
To Ohio11pm, it all depends on the person in question. If you are the type that will work late in a private sector job, you most likely will in a gov't job. People do what they have to do to get the job done providing their employer is not just taking advantage of them.
Union Forever...I did not work for the gov't in the Mahoning Valley but I can assure you that in other areas of this state, we began paying a portion of our benefits 15 years ago. It started at 10% and has gone up in every contract.
DoctorGonzo...benefits were once a way to help attract the best and brightest to gov't jobs because of the low pay attached to them. That all depends on the gov't now. It's a culture change that needs to be addressed.
Vindyak...I get the world market concept. I just don't understand how you have health care tying in to it?
"The Obama administration said early this year that more than half of all personal bankruptcies are caused by medical bills.
Conversely, government workers don’t appear to be having such problems"
Soon to be will be the taxing of private health care benefits. Then all will be well. Government workers see themselves as being elevated above the general public and not subject to the same set of rules.
VINDYAK - Isolationism will not work. Our imports of oil will keep us in the world economy for the future and beyond. The stock market will keep us in the world economy. The auto industry will keep us in the world economy. Subsidizing for foreign labor costs in foreign countries will keep us in the world economy. Pick your poison—they all work.
"... rather than focus on the need for workers to compete in a “race to the bottom” of the wage-and-benefits scale, it might be time to look at the reason why private industry has found itself unable to provide decent wages and benefits."
This is the most telling statement in the whole article. The answer might be in a statistic from an article called "Imagine a Country" by Holly Sklar: In 1980, CEOs of major U.S. corporations made 45 times as much as the average full-time employee; in 1990, it was 140 times, and by 2005, that number had jumped to 352 times as much.
I think we know where the profits are going.
I read these post and all I see are victims blaming victims. I'm getting screwed worse than your getting screwed and I won't be happy untill you get screwed as bad as I do. Unbelievable.
HMOs and Insurance companies read this and laugh while they make billions in profits by raising premiums while lowering service and denying treatment to their customers. The cost of health care is rising three times faster than wages with no end in sight. It is possible to have health care, get sick and lose your life's work as a result. You need to redirect your outrage.
More than $4.00 an hour for government worker health care and 2800 people in line for 350 jobs paying $7.00 per hour.
The health care system in this country is broken. The fix is single payer not for profit.
City Dweller - that's the Mahoning Valley way - the credo here is "If I don't have it, nobody else should either!"
And Cambridge is right - the HMOs and insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank - they jack up rates just because they feel like it, and laugh while one powerless group squawks at another equally powerless group. Further, speaking of HMOs and such - why do doctors bother going to med school so they can practice medicine, when in much less time they can become an insurance exec and supercede the orders of any doctor. Don't believe me? What happens when your doctor prescribes a medicine specific to your problem, and the insurance company denies that prescription, saying there are other meds that you must try first? Who wins that contest, the doctor or the bean-counter? I know who loses - the patient!
Not to mention while people are getting angry at city and township employees for the rates they pay, a majority of the people not paying their medical bills are the ones commiting welfare fraud. No matter what this administration does for the working people of America, the same people who are sucking up tax dollars and getting over will still be robbing us blind. If someone is driving an Escalade but can't pay for health care, getting angry at government and public employees seems a bit like misplaced energy to me........
Well it's Halloween again ! Do we (taxpayers) want to Treat or Trick ? I for one will trick . Who do these people think they are ? We need an independant committee to oversee Public Insurances and the same for the Goverment Sector. Compare the two and find common ground. I never work the Govt. jobs but they count on us (taxpayers) for their wages. With more coming in there's more to give to the Goverment servants ! With less coming in there's less to give Goverment servants ! If they can get more money for their services or work they should go get it. I really don't think they'll find that opportunity. So what do they and us do ? They need to take more cuts in wages, perks, and insurance benfits. Oh ! Let me call off sick I have a sick days or personel days left I'll be able to go ! What's this garbage ? You don't work you don't get paid period. Where's your productiveity ? There is none. I'm a tradesman if I don't have so many hours I self-pay my insurance. If I can't afford it I do with out. Try that Goverment workers. Yeah I do get sick at work because I work outside with the elements. I don't get sick days I work sick so I can FEED my family. Goverment workers (most of them) work inside how do the get sick with heated rooms, roof over their head , and air condition rooms ? Most likely they get sick from taking sick days and going sking or something non related to work! Need I say more ? Goverment workers do you work sick? Or your just sick !
Well, when the economy is good and private sector employees are happy this is what I hear: Public employees, especially police and fire and their families say they don't get paid enough for what they do. People, just like the ones whining now, say to them, "you chose your profession, so live with it and stop complaining, you can always leave". When the economy is bad and the public employees still get the same wages, the private sector starts to suffer and calls for their heads. So, for all of the times I have been told that I chose my profession and could leave if I wanted more money, here you go. You chose to go in to the private sector, you can always change professions. Police, fire, and other public jobs are always testing and hiring so go for it. If it is so enviable then get out there and get a public service job. Wait, that's right, one thing we always knew going in to our public service profession is we will never be rich. That's the difference. No matter how well we perform our jobs or how great the economy is, we won't get rich. Deal with it. To all of you who will always be middle class and go out each day to serve an ungrateful public.....THANK YOU.
Lastly, I'm tired of hearing how YOU pay THEM so you should have control of what they earn. It doesn't matter if you are private sector or public. Everybody's pay check comes from someone elses money, get off of your high horse.
Single payer is not the solution. Obama told the AMA "I'll be honest, there are countries where a single-payer system works pretty well." But his press secretary couldn't name even one when pressed for an example. Every other model of socialized medicine is a failure compared to they system we have now. It surely needs improvement, but not in the direction or scale proposed by Hillary or Obama.
There are very few things government does well, and it should certainly not be in the healthcare business. Medical and insurance fees are exorbitant because there is not enough competition for the healthcare dollar. Malpractice insurance premiums escalate because of frivolous lawsuits and people don’t take enough responsibility for their own well-being.
There is no crisis; the vast majority of Americans DO have health insurance and NO ONE is denied critical care. The oft-cited figure of 47-50 million uninsured is inflated and highly misleading; it is only a snapshot of the population at one point in time. Of that number: 14 million are already eligible for other government programs and haven’t enrolled, 10 million are in households earning upwards of $75,000 a year and could afford it if they wanted to, nearly half are between jobs, and some are young and healthy and would rather spend the money on cars, Ipods and video games. Only a small fraction are permanently uninsured. An enormous number in that total are not even American citizens–that’s 60% of the “uninsured” in San Francisco alone.
Obama, who has never run as much as a lemonade stand, said his proposed government “public option” will compete with and play by the same rules as the private insurers, and therefore, won’t drive them out of business. If they play by the same rules, what’s the point?
Wake up and smell the chloroform. We’re on the slippery slope to total socialism, and introducing it as a benevolent “humanitarian” measure is the classic method to get suckers to support it. Obama’s sycophants are still stuck in their “It’s raining candy!” euphoria while ignoring the past failures of Medicare and Welfare.
Single payer is the solution. Most European countries have government as the single payer. France has the best health care in the world, the US 37th and at twice the cost.
Medicare is the most efficient program around at 2-3% cost to implement.
At least use facts to back up an already false argument.
Rokscout - you're right. And those sheep who bleat "WE pay your salary!" would do well to realize that THEY don't pay any more of the public servant's wages than the public servant himself contributes toward his own wages!
So the complainers using that line need to STFU.
Still more of the victim blaming the victim. Health care in this country isn't helping it's citizens it's destroying them. How many small children don't get their vaccines? Do we need Polio to make a comeback?
54% of the national budget is spent on the military. We are to trust the government to run a military that has a bigger budget than the rest of the world combined but we can't trust them to oversee health care?
All my life I've heard the average person complain about the people in congress enjoying the best health care money can buy. "Oh how I wish I had that health care." Well here is your chance and for probably less than you currently pay and your response is to take benefits from you neighbor. What a bunch of fools.
Single payer not for profit is what will fix health care in this country. There are dozens of countries whose health care rank higher than ours. Are you telling me we can't study those plans and take the best each has to offer and not end up with the best possible plan? How many time do you have to be hit in the head before you figure out who's hitting you.
NoBS, not even close to being true. The taxpayers pay nearly all of the public employees salary and benefits. The public employees themselves don't even pay 1% of the total costs of their packages. See how much you'd make if the taxpayers decided not to fund it.
Jenny, are you saying YOU personally pay more than a cop, fireman, road worker, etc?? Are YOUR taxes higher than those paid by those people?
The answer is NO. So you don't get to claim that by nature of your taxpayer status, you're the boss. Collectively, yes, there are more taxpayers than there are employees (although to hear some of the b*tching and whining that goes on, you might not think so). But we're talking about individuals who think they get to directly control who gets what money. You make allegations to that effect. Please pay attention.
The way the system works is that taxpayers throw their money in a large pot and trust that their elected officials spend it wisely. HOW it's spent is not up to the taxpayers, directly. If the taxpayers are not happy with the way their money is being spent, they have the option of not re-electing their officials. They can also vote on NEW TAXES, but have no say on general fund expenditures. The taxpayers DO NOT get to set salaries, grant or deny benefits, or any of that stuff. They can make their wishes known to their elected officials. That's all. You'd think someone who tells others to use facts would know a few themselves.
Thanks for the government lesson NoBS. I already knew that though. In an earlier post you said the government workers paid more than the taxpayers. That's a false statement. Here is what you said:
"THEY don't pay any more of the public servant's wages than the public servant himself contributes toward his own wages!"
THEY is plural in case you didn't know and refers to the taxpayers as a collective. Now your clarifying the statement to be each individual taxpayer.
To answer your other question, I do indeed pay more in taxes than most public workers.
Hey Jenny. What is your profession? It doesn't matter anyway, your logic is effective both ways. If everyone stopped using the services you or your employer provide then what would happen to you? See that's the point, every dime I spend goes to fund somebody right? I pay insanely high prices for cars to fund the great packages that auto workers get. I am feeling the sting of the poor economy but I am not mad at them. I am glad there are jobs like that for people. Again, if public service jobs are so enviable, SIGN UP. If you are truly upset about your taxes then be mad at the politicians who misspend them as a very large portion of them do NOT go to pay police/fire and the rest. As I said earlier if you really want to place proper blame, get angry at the welfare abuse!
I don't mind paying taxes. What I mind is paying taxes for government workers who are making more money than the private sector. They call it public service NOT extort the taxpayers. When the private sector feels economic pain, we shouldn't be asked to pay more taxes so that the public servants don't have to. Somewhere along the way public service got off track. It was always supposed to pay less but have better benefits to make up for the wage shortfall. Now, they have higher wages AND better benefits. Unsustainable.
I'm an Accountant.
Not true, Jenny. We’re rated 37th by whom–the UN who still believes in the global warming hoax? Or is it the UN who bucks US sovereignty and policy at every turn?
Regardless, perceived success in Europe is no guarantee of same here. France is different in many aspects, the most important being that it doesn't share thousands of miles of an open border with Latin America. France's taxes are astronomically higher as a result of their universal single payer scheme, which is still in financial trouble after years of “reform.” You neglect to mention the rapid proliferation of for-profit clinics in Germany, Canada, and elsewhere that offer immediate access and higher quality than the public plans.
Medicare, like Social Security, is not a sustainable program, though it may appear to work now. Our health care is pricey because it still has too much government interference, and Americans won't tolerate the increased intrusion of government into their lives and loss of choice, especially when they see the price tag. Nevertheless, you'll always find advocates for failed systems.
Obama has not promised Single Payer, but his “public option” is merely a sop to the Leftists who think it's a first step toward getting things for free.
Why is it that some people on the far right think they speak for what people on the left want. Why don't you stick to commenting about what you want and not lump everyone that is to the left of your way of thinking together as people with their hand out. As if you have a clue.
jennychan wrote: "Thanks for the government lesson NoBS. I already knew that though. In an earlier post you said the government workers paid more than the taxpayers. That's a false statement. Here is what you said:
"THEY don't pay any more of the public servant's wages than the public servant himself contributes toward his own wages!"
THEY is plural in case you didn't know and refers to the taxpayers as a collective. Now your clarifying the statement to be each individual taxpayer."
Oh, come on. Are you really going to quibble over what "they" means? Who are you - a Clinton? Give me a break!
Jennychan - "To answer your other question, I do indeed pay more in taxes than most public workers."
And here we go again, another arrogant jerk who thinks that if they claim the make more than the public workers, that somehow entitles them to dictate policy to those simple peasants who must bow before the queen.
Get over yourself, jenny. Nobody cares how much you say you make. This is an anonymous forum - I can claim I make a billion dollars a month - can you disprove that? Please provide solid proof, if you can.
The bottom line STILL is, you don't get to say squat about how much "your" public servants make, what benefits they get, or anything directly affecting them.
jennychan further says: "What I mind is paying taxes for government workers who are making more money than the private sector."
Listen, you arrogant so-and-so, who are YOU to decide who should make what? You obviously did not understand my lesson on what you get to decide and what your elected officials get to decide.
jennychan also says: "When the private sector feels economic pain, we shouldn't be asked to pay more taxes so that the public servants don't have to."
Right - if you don't get something, those inferior cretins who make up the ranks of police, fire, and so on, don't deserve it either. Tell me, when times were good, a year or two ago, did you think the public servants should have shared in the good times? Should they have enjoyed big raises? No? Why not?
To anyone blind enough to believe in a single payer system:
Name one country where it works...Obama and Gibbs can't.
The NHS is scheduled to go bankrupt in 2 years...why?
The NHS stopped treating stage 4 breast cancer to contain costs.
Several Canadian politicians have been caught receiving health care in the USA...why?
Does it seem plausable that when something is free, that the demand will increase, and therefore the expense?
Why do you think that Hawai'i abandoned it's state funded health care for children (The Hawai'ian version of SCHIP).? The answer...it went bankrupt...are you seeing a theme here?
I, like you wish everyone had a big house, free stuff, and a cute pony. However, there's this thing called resources, and it's limited. Perhaps we could try some sensible, non-radical stuff first, like say...tort reform, free market health care, health insurance reform, and improved screening tests that would greatly reduce hospital admissions.
Yes I agree with Jenny Chan ! If it's True that Public Servants pay the same in taxes and all. Answer me this. Why don't they pay into Social Security ? Double Standard people that's why. Actualy Double Stanard is being nice they are TWO FACED ! You say the public has the same chance to hold a Goverment (public servant) job. I suggest you all read the Plain Dealer out of Cleve. Oh. The Clerk of Courts their HIRED people with out giving the Civil Service Test ! The were his friends and vote getters . Now back to our problem here in the Three Cty. area ( Col. Mah.& Trum.) Most of these Public Service jobs are HANDED OUT to thier friends . If these jobs were available why doesn't all the counties advertise for them. There's no residental requirements anymore. You would get the best people for the jobs through out the State. Not your Civil Organizational Friends ! Or Mason's ! One last thing why don't our Polictical Officals take cuts in pay or at least Table the Motion ? One word comes to my mind. Greedie !!!!!
You've got to love NonSocialist comments about the single payer health systems going bankrupt. Especially, with our system costing twice as much as single payer systems and causing companies to fail (GM) because of legacy (health) costs.
Our system is failing and getting worse each year. Health care and higher education are the only 2 sectors where costs are rising way more than the cost of living.
There is nothing wrong with Medicare as its efficiency is second to none.
NoBS, there are no billionaires in the area so you can't be making that much.
If nothing changes, the system will further deteriorate and eventually even the naysayers will be crying for universal coverage.
Oh Jenny do you have any idea what you would pay for privatizing the public sector jobs? Do you know what a firefighter would charge to to come to your house for whatever you need? How about a public defender? What is their pay compared to a defense attorney working in the private sector? How can you sit there and claim that public employees make more than their private counterparts? You say you are an accountant? Why don't you apply to work for the city using your skills? That's right, you will go from six figures to a low five.
Apollo, save some space and just respond to every article with, "I hate Boardman, I hate Boardman".
For anyone thinking that Germans etc. have it so well, you should go visit and speak to them. See how free handouts by way of welfare and national health care are destroying the working person. If you want to see a 19% sales tax and $10.00 per gallon gasoline then you will get the same coverages Europeans have. Here is a shocker, the workers pay for a lot more services than they use.
Rokscout, did you even read the article that you are responding to? From the above article:
The wages and benefits of the average government worker were $39.25 per hour, while the figure for a private-industry worker was $27.35.
The survey said the average government worker’s benefits cost taxpayers $13.38 per hour; benefits of an average private-industry worker were $7.98.
In the area of health insurance, the hourly cost for a public employee was $4.25; the health-insurance cost for the average private-industry worker was less than half that at $1.95 per hour.
So how's that according to you private industry pays more? No wonder governments are broke. It's going to get worse, much worse. States are going to go bankrupt and so too will localities.
I forgot to mention that Medicare is also expected to go bankrupt within ten years.
I also forgot to mention that the cancer fatality rate in Canada is 17% higher than the USA. The delays in care result in death. Sound like something you want for your family?
GM allowed themselves to be extorted by the UAW. Not only was the health care costs exceedingly expensive, but so were their salaries, etc.
Does anybody want to talk about other forms of government run health care; ie,the VA system, Medicaid...all financial failures.
The Democratic-Socialist Party's (DSP) solution to improving US healthcare is akin to spraying gasoline instead of water on a small fire in a big house.
Wise up fast libs. Some of the DSPs damage can be repaired later by us and our children...and alot won't be fixable. Socialism is a steep downhill path to tyranny and financial collapse.
Getting criticized from every angle the State of Ohio has been pioneering in saving the taxpayers money. They can now cover raises and elevated health care costs.
SAVING THE TAXPAYERS MONEY !
http://i44.tinypic.com/2dryiac.jpg
Nonsocialist is a funny person. Posting partial truths and even some misleading and false stuff.
Nonsocialist said "I forgot to mention that Medicare is also expected to go bankrupt within ten years."
What he/she failed to tell you is why. Because health care costs are twice what they are in countries with single payer systems and rising an average of 8-10% a year. Also, the drug plan (Medicare Part D) that the Republicans passed as a giveaway to big pharma their financiers. Why do you think they didn't want to permit Medicare to be able to negotiate prices?
Nonsocialist also stated - "I also forgot to mention that the cancer fatality rate in Canada is 17% higher than the USA. The delays in care result in death. Sound like something you want for your family?"
A complete lie. Here is the truth.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st...
What needs to happen is for our elected officials to take their hands out of the pockets of the insurance companies and drug companies so that they can unbiasedly get a handle on the outrageous costs that we have been subjected to as American citizens. Fix the real problem. Make healthcare affordable and people can go out and get it themselves.
LOL! Leave it to the insurance companies and drug companies to make health care affordable. That's one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. That was a good one.
The article and Mr. Johnson fail to acknowledge that Youngstown City Schools, as well as the city, are going into the 4th year of a wage freeze. That coupled with paying for health care costs resulted in a cut in actual income.
The school employees, who collectively value security, traded salary for healthcare.
JennyChan,
Government run healthcare is only affordable if you ration care. Rationed care = delayed or denied care. Delayed or denied care = death. Please refer to the NBER link below:
resultwww.nber.org/papers/w13429
Why do you call me a liar when Medicare's looming bankruptcy is common knowledge? Please refer to the NPR story below:
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?st...
The Medicare prescription plan passed during W's term was stupid. The American Health Care system is falling apart. Destroying it completely (The Democratic-Socialist Plan) is both dangerous and irresponsible. It is about a power shift from the subjects to the government. It is about furthering government dependence. It is not about helping anybody but the ruling class.
The sane option is medical liability reform, limiting insurance to more affordable catastrophic coverage, free market health care, and improved screening for hospital admissions. My own personal estimate is that care would improve while costs would be reduced by about half.
Love,
The Nonsocialist
Nonsocialist, the lie that you told was regarding cancer rates. Read the truth here.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st...
Medicare is going broke because insurance companies and the medical industrial complex lobbies congress to keep the status quo which increases health care costs by double digits every year. That raises Medicare's cost too.
The free market in health care has been the norm for many years in America and it is broken. Caused GM to fail. Is causing states and local governments to go bankrupt. Canada's health care is excellent, rated better than the US system. France's is rated the best and it is socialized. Socialism isn't the bogey man that you would have us believe. There are many excellent socialistic programs. You car insurance is one. (All insurance is socialism in action)
Even Cuba has better health care than we have.
JennyChan,
You are a self-confessed socialist, but I'm gonna give this one last shot.
We have not had true free market health care for decades in the USA. We have had a combination of socialized medicine (the VA, Medicare, Medicaid and various state run programs), government-regulated health insurance, and to a small degree free market.
I'm not going to rehash the failings of the American experiment with socialized medicine. Government-regulated health insurance has been a disaster because it has resulted in high expense and false expectations. Many, if not the majority of medical decisions by the consumer is based on coverage, rather than necessity."Sure, I'll had the $800 MRI since my insurance takes care of it!" In a free market health care system, the decision is based on a cost-benefit analysis. "Doc, I'll pay for the MRI only if I really need it, but also I'll shop around for the radiology center with the best rates!" Health Insurance should be catastrophic only.Your car insurance analogy is appropriate here. Your car insurance does not cover routine maintenance or oil changes, it only covers "catastrophies."
Defensive medicine has enormously increased health care expenditures through unnecessary tests and procedures, as well as huge liability insurance premiums. Tort reform alone would have a huge impact in reducing health care expenses.
Regarding Canada, CTV is state-run media like Pravda. Can you find any legitimate facts or sources, like I have, to counter the facts I've presented? Canada has a 17% higher cancer death rate, and an eight week wait for radiation therapy for cancer patients. 42% of Canadians die of colon cancer vs. 31% in the US. The best meds for chemo therapy are not available. There is no way out of the system; you can't even pay for services yourself. Why are Canadian politicians coming to the USA for cancer treatment? Answer that!
Please educate yourself about Medicare's and the NHS's upcoming bankruptcies, about the rationing of care in Canada and the NHS's refusal to cover stage 4 breast cancer.
Socialism is touted by the powerful to be for the people. It never has been in the history of the world. Carl Marx, Lenin, Mousilini, Hitler, Chairman Mao, and Stalin preached forms of socialism in order to gain power, than ruled their subjects with force and deprivation. Be careful what you wish for...there is no such thing as a free ride.
Nonsocialist...So if you believe that the health care system in this country is broken you are a disciple of Carl Marx, Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Chairman Mao and Stalin? If your answer to that question is no you than shouldn't bring them up
GM went broke not because of its healthcare costs but because of paying benefits and wages to workers who weren't working!
That's how the right operates Cambridge. They keep comparing socialized medicine to Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Mao, and any other dictator they can think of. I'm surprised they don't also use Napoleon, King Richard I, etc.
I've been to Canada and the only people who don't like the Canadian system are Americans and American doctors. The waiting for service claim is bull. I wanted an appt with a specialist in the valley and had to wait 3 months.
The truth is our system is broke not because it's a mishmash of socialized care but because the vast majority of Americans have the free market health care that has gone up by an average of 8-10 percent per year over the last 20 years. Employers are jettisoning coverage or making employees pick up larger and larger shares of the costs.
37th best in the world. If that's what you call good health care, the shame on you.
timOthy claims: "Answer me this. Why don't they pay into Social Security ? Double Standard people that's why. Actualy Double Stanard is being nice they are TWO FACED !"
Exqueeze me, Zippy, since about the mid-1980s public servants DO pay into Social Security. Before that, they didn't, but, now pay attention, Timmy, THEY DON'T GET TO REAP THE BENEFITS of it!!! Got that? They didn't used to put in because they couldn't get anything out of it. Now, they get a minimal amount - far less than the private sector (it would be double-dipping if they got the full SS benefits) yet they must contribute to it.
Yes, there's some two-facedness going on, Timmy-boy, but it ain't where you think it is.
Cambridge,
Wassup?
I was not implying that if one believes that the US health care system is broke, than you're therefore a disciple of Marx, et al. As I said above, I believe that the US health care system is broke.
I'm just opposed to the ruling class using it as a reason to further their socialist agenda at the expense of my and my family's (and my nation's) health. Their "solutions" are proven failures. They know that, but don't care.
Given JennyChan's confession of being a socialist, I was trying to enlighten and inform her. After all, she may vote in 2010.
Well Goverment employees what do you think about GOV. (Mark Sanford ) vacation or fling and him leaving South Carolina without anyone in control?? This is what all these comments are mostly expressing . Public Servants have no Respect of commitment. We have one here in Columbiana Cty or More. That storm that hit New Orleans our Recorder (C. Brown ) had to leave Columbiana Cty to go help . Very admerable , but your being paid to work (represent ) the people of Col. Cty. So you see this disesae is spreading through out Goverment. Servants get a grip !
Yes, Nonsocialist, I don't fear socialism in some aspects of life. In fact, some socialism is good for society. Society/Socialism get the root word there? All insurance is socialistic. So is paying taxes for the betterment of society, for example military spending, road building, food and drug testing, education, etc. Much of what we know and use today is the result of socialism. Yet, you want us to believe that it is terrible? Social (that root word again) Security and Medicare are socialistic and excellent programs. So are veterans benefits another excellent program.
You socialism haters make me laugh. It's probably the best program going and even with all the recent "free market" scandals, you still sing the same tired old tune.
timOthy,
Within 5 days, Gov. Sanford was held accountable.
You don't know any health insurance execs, do you? In your imagination, are they committed to you? Even at lower levels, it is the greatest job in the world in terms of a scratch golf game. (Where come to think of it, they's probably be playing with your doctor and the owners of the nursing homes.)
At this point even business owners are saying we have to do something, as they are being squeezed by costs they used to carry for employees.
Opponents of health care reform talk out of both sides of their mouths. On one hand they say that people will get extra procedures and raise costs, and then they say questionable procedures will be denied. (Dan Rivers was going on about this second issue happening in England, where according to him knee replacements are denied to the obese, etc. My doctor, who is my old friend is not afraid to be blunt with me in the same sort of discussion.)
The AMA and other healthcare providers do have deep pockets that influence educators. So I don't understand Obama's opposition to Tort Reform. (Well, I do, he is a lawyer, after all. But compromise is the essence of politics. Give Tort Reform to the doctors. Get them on board for some health care reforms -- like curbing testing for unlikely ailments.)