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Terry and O’Reilly were right

Published: Thu, June 18, 2009 @ 12:00 a.m.

Terry and O’Reilly were right


Your June 4 editorial on the murder of the abortion doctor, Dr. Tiller, said Randall Terry and Bill O’Reilly encouraged the doctor’s murder by calling him a mass murderer.

Dr. Tiller was an abortion doctor for 35 years and aborted approximately 60,000 babies. During the next Super Bowl observe the 50,000 people in the stadium. Then realize Dr. Tiller killed 10,000 more people than are in that stadium. For those of us who believe abortion is murder, I’d say Dr. Tiller was a mass murderer. Bill O’Reilly and Randall Terry only told the truth.

Incidentally, Dr. Tiller performed late term abortions. Only a handful of late term abortion doctors are in the U.S. It is an especially heinous procedure. My opinion is a person would have to be extremely cold blooded to perform a late term abortion on a kicking baby suspended helplessly in the air while being killed by a doctor.




1Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

My opinion is a person would have to be extremely cold blooded to perform any abortion. Dr. Tiller was a rich man from the money he made killing babies.

I feel sad for Dr. Tiller's family because of his death but just as sad for the 60,000 babies that were killed. Many who are saddened by Dr. Tiller's death don't share any sadness for the babies who perished.

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2Tugboat(759 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

How does killing people who kill people prove that killing people is wrong? Or that so-and-so is telling the truth?


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3Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Well, in this case 60,000 dead babies are proof that abortion wrong.

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4Tugboat(759 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Stan wrote = "60,000 dead babies are proof that abortion wrong."

Were not 60,000 mothers wrong? Being participants in the crime, should they be killed too?

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5Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

That about sums it up JennyChan!

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6JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Can't speak for Tiller (never heard of him) but O'Reilly is a hack. He also likes to harass female employees...nothing in the bible against that though, right?

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7Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


Hitler broke none of his laws by killing Jews. His death camps were common knowledge worldwide. How does history judge him now ?

The one who killed Dr. Tiller has been arrested. The killing of the most innocent is allowed to continue and nobody has been arrested. The slaughter of the unborn is common knowledge worldwide. How will this be judged on the last great day?

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8Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hitler still has his supporters and Dr. Tiller still has his. Both now have one thing in common. They are just as dead as their victims.

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9AtownParent(564 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hitler committed murder in everyone's eyes but his own and those who subscribed to his beliefs. There is no denying it was murder. Abortion is only murder if you apply your religious "laws" to it, not the laws the govern our country. It is a medical procedure, not a crime.

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10valleyred(1102 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

How can anyone sleep at night knowing they killed 60,000 babies.... O it is so wrong. Abortion is so wrong.

The part I can't seem to understand is that this man was shot at church. How can he be religious since his profession is the killing of babies?

Let God be the judge of where he belongs.

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11Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"It is a medical procedure, not a crime."

Killing Jews wasn't a crime in Nazi Germany either.

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12epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"Killing Jews wasn't a crime in Nazi Germany either."

Yep, abortionists = nazis. Very good Stan. Please ensnare us heathens with more of your bulletproof logic.

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13DoctorGonzo(728 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Holy Dog Sh*t!

"Because abortion isn't killing babies anymore than ejaculating into a towel is killing babies." - Jenny Chan (Donna Chang?), that has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have read in recent memory. I could go on for several hours explaining how stupid that is. Unbelievable, but I digest.

I cannot fathom that this guy aborted 60,000 babies over 35 years. He would be aborting almost 5 babies a day, everyday, over that 35 year period. I have trouble ejaculating into a towel that many times a day...wait.

The bottom line is that the supreme court said a lady has a right to do what she chooses with her body and as long as the abortions were not in the early stages of the pregnancy, they are completely legal.

I would like to see some of these people caught up in biblical vengeance start being proactive about other things in this society. Laying the "smite" down on this guy does not achieve anything. It is a cause linked to a war of attrition decades old that will continue for several more decades. Instead, these zealots should focus on helping the youth functuion as human beings in a society that has witnessed exponential regression of its inhabitants for too long now.

The author of this letter should start by skipping a couple episodes of o'reilly and reading Roe v. Wade. Then perhaps getting more info on the doctor from more unbiased sources. One can hardly form a knowledgeable opinion by listening to people with heavy agendas alone. I understand and appreciate her faith, however, when one uses media people as sources in arguments, things become somewhat incredible.

Seriously, that was such a damn stupid line Jenny Chan (Donna Chang?). I just read it again. I mean come on.

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14Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Killing babies because they are inconvenient
is about as pathetic as it gets.

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15Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

JennyChan is my favorite poster of all time.

The real question is how many more unwanted children are needed in this country? Who is going to take care of all of this children? Should the expectant mother have been more responsible? Yes! Did the expectant mother get herself into a bad situaiton? Yes! But I think it is more responsible for a expectant mother to know her limitations and have an abortion rather than bringing an "innocent child" into the world to live a life of struggle and neglect, possibly a life in an orphanage wondering why their mother gave them up, hoping that someone will come and rescue them. I know this does not happen in every case but I am willing to bet it is more common than not.

If Stan is willing to adopt all of the unwanted children in the country then I will be the first person to say abortion should be illegal, but since that will never happen, please live your own lives and stop trying to impose your views and judgements onto others.

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16Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


Well homosexuals are inconvenient to have around. Will you want them killed next? Hitler exterminated them along with Jews and invalids. How about old people who dont have much use to society? Will they be next?

" please live your own lives and stop trying to impose your views and judgements onto others."


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17Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Why are homosexuals inconvenient to have around Stan?? What have they done to hurt you? By that comment alone just shows what a closed minded human being you are.

When did the doctor go to these women and FORCE them to have an abortion, like hitler killed thousands of innocent jewish people.

People that think like you terrify me with your simple and easily influenced mind. Who made Mr. Terry the judge, jury and executioner with Dr. Tiller and what makes you think you have to be the speaker of these unborn fetuses?

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18metrodawg(70 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

When abortions were illegal, women had abortions. If abortions become illegal again, women will continue to have abortions. And, if killing someone is OK because they killed someone, why is the death penalty so controversial?

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19blkpride(186 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hey you Leftist Dems embrace abortion so that makes you guilty too!!!!

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20Freethinker(24 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

I do not believe anyone is embracing abortion here. I do note people opting not to make decisions for others. As a male and not on the conceiving end of reproduction I will leave this choice to the females. It is a difficult topic for all.

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21Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


What have the unborn done to you that confirms they deserve no future? I don't champion the killing of the unborn,homosexuals or euthanizing old people. Using your analogy, who are you to judge what choices others have made when I choose to speak out?

A society that does not protect its unborn is doomed. The yet to be born are our future. Killing the unborn is killing our future. Who knows what leader or what miracle cure has died with the aborted unborn.

Who am I to speak out against the killing of the unborn? I am the Grandson of numerous generations before me who had cherished and defended life so that I am able to do this.

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22Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

So then JennyChan, why do the charge for two murders when a pregnant woman is killed?

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23valleyred(1102 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Killing a PREGNANT WOMAN is considered a DOUBLE MURDER.

Killing just the LIVING FETUS is not even considered MURDER.

How wrong is that!?!?!?!

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24hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Any older Catholic (myself included) can tell you that it was considered sinful to enjoy oneself in the way JennyChan alludes to, or with a partner. The only time we were (officially) allowed to engage in sexual pleasure was for the production of more little Catholics.

(Which we dedicated ourselves to with fervor) The idea is that the egg alone and sperm alone do indeed have the potential for life, just as a blastocyst does. What ever chances a sexually active woman's egg has to become a person every month is only slightly less than the chances of that little embryo to successfully implant itself in the uterus and continue its development.

It does not have a consciousness of itself, or even a potential to have one until past 4 months, since its nervous system is not developed. (Unlike Dr. Tiller, who was shot in the face.)

Sometimes I wonder how much thought some posters have put into this situation. Have you read the stories of the mothers, and the reasons they went to Dr. Tiller.

Please tell me finding that the fetus does not have a bowel or an anus, no brain material except for the brain stem, or a tumor rapidly devouring its heart and chest cavity would not present any parent with an anguishing decision. They found they were met with understanding by Dr. Tiller, once they passed the gauntlet of protesters.

But there have also been stories online from people who adopted their children through Dr. Tiller, so it is not true that he did not counsel or refuse patients.

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25Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Well,Dr. Tiller lived very well while the 60,000 unborn ripped out of their mothers womb were decomposing in their graves. The percentage of the 60,000 that would have been viable babies if given the chance would be almost 100%. Using the statistics of viable births at any hospital one would see Dr. Tiller aborted babies for large fees and not humanitarian reasons.

Hitler used the ashes of the Jews from the crematoriums to fertilize the fields in Germany and he still has his supporters after all these years. We are having our holocaust in America at the hands of the abortion clinics. The people have been duped into killing their own and paying huge fees to have it done. Is this humanitarian? Not a chance, it is big business and the babies aren't able to complain.

Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust:
If you were born after 1972, we challenge you to consider yourself a Survivor of the Abortion Holocaust. 1/3 of your generation has been killed by abortion ...


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26LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

JennyChan, your logic seems a bit flawed. As an atheist, you have no basis for universal truth. By definition, your morality is relative and most likely situational. Since your morality is nothing more than your opinion, it has no more validity than Hitler's or the doctor killer's or a suicide bomber's. In your sad, hopeless atheist existence, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong. You have no logical basis for criticizing anyone elses moral choices.

Many others have pointed out the gaping holes in your "one was legal the other wasn't" argument. Then you state that "basically, it isn't life until it can breath and function on its own", which is a clear argument FOR considering late term abortions to be murder.

From where I sit as a Christian, both Tiller and his murderer were in the wrong. It is not my place to judge either, nor to determine who was more wrong. God will do that.

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27LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Please read what I said again, more carefully. I did not say you did not have morals. What I said was that, as an avowed atheist, you are by definition saying there is no universal truth and that everyone decides their own morals. You can disagree with Hitler, but his moral choices are equally as valid as yours. In other words, if there is no God, by what basis are your morals "right" and Hitler's "wrong"?

I agree with you that many who claim to be Christian make moral choices that are inconsistent with the universal truths it proclaims. That, however, says nothing about those truths. It only speaks to the hypocrisy of many people.

As an atheist, you can debate whether Christianity is "true" or not, but you cannot debate whether another person's morals are right - even Hitler's.

Finally, if you did some research, you would find that Tiller often aborted healthy viable babies.

According to your "changing the diaper" logic, we should be able to kill a 4-year-old with severe problems. Frankly your logic here is not sound...is it only a life when it can "breath and function on it's own", or is it when it can "breath and function on it's own without problems"?

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28hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Lovin' Life, it's ridiculous to try to claim that atheists can not recognize universal truths. The Commandments themselves were similar to earlier civil law.
I'm glad however that you do shy away from the blanket falsehoods that some other posters (I'm lookin' at you, Stan) make by saying that Dr. Tiller "often" aborted healthy viable babies. Get a little closer to the truth, and find out how many "healthy" fetus were aborted after the 16th week. Not many, and babies before that time are not "viable".
You know, the soul or spirit is often described in the Bible as breath or air, like the wind that brought the spirt to the Disciples at Pentecost. JennyChan is not without support in her belief.

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29hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Stan got me off-task from my agenda today by sending me on a search for abortion statistics. Apparently these are in short supply, since they don't have to be reported.

I couldn't find any reliable source for Stan's often quoted number of 60,000 abortions. The only place they are mentioned are as "estimated" by anti-abortion groups.

The only good study of why a woman would have a late term abortion is dated 1988.

So I would suggest that researchers, perhaps funded by the government start studying this, so that we can discuss the problem from data, rather than from emotional sermons from both sides.

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30Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Dr. Tiller's Specialty

Dr. Tiller took late-term patients with healthy fetuses also. The clinic's medical records however remain confidential.

Late-term abortions are grueling. In 2007, the Supreme Court upheld a federal ban on one late-term procedure, sometimes called "partial-birth abortion," in which the physician begins to deliver the fetus, feet-first, then punctures its skull. Doctors are still allowed to dismember the fetus in utero. Dr. Tiller's preferred method is also legal. He stopped the fetal heart with an injection of digoxin, a drug used to treat adult heart patients. Then he would induce labor. Patients said they would wait in hotel rooms through two to three days of contractions until they were ready to deliver their stillborns at his clinic.

Such procedures discomfit some abortion doctors. William F. Harrison, who performs abortions in Fayetteville, Ark., said he considered Dr. Tiller a friend and called him "a very brave and great doctor." Yet he has long expressed concern about Dr. Tiller's willingness to abort into the ninth month. "Some of his practices are hard to defend," Dr. Harrison said.

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31LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Ridiculous, HellsBells? Hmmm...tell me again what "universal" truths JennyChan and Hitler shared?

You confuse civil law and universal truth. Hitler, JennyChan, and a tribe of cannibals have very different beliefs about civil law and do not claim any shared universal truth except that God does not exist. So, name for me one "universal" truth that all atheists share.

As to abortion stats, try the CDC or even Planned Parenthood. True, they all have only estimates, but they are pretty close regardless of which side of the debate they are on.

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32Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

So JennyChan, at what age do you believe that seniors should be euthanized to save them from the nursing homes?

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33LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Those are not universal truths in any sense of the word! In fact, those are Judaeo-Christian. In an atheistic belief system like yours, where there is no eternal judgement, "if it feels good do it" and "look out for number one" are far more common and logical. Like most atheists, your "morals" aren't based in any logical thought process arising from your beliefs; you inherited them from the culture around you.

And why won't you answer my other direct questions? Instead you prefer to take cheap shots at men and Catholics. That's because, when confronted with logic you have no response, so you lash out in dumb generalities.

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34Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

JennyChan sez:
"Stan, when they want to be!"

So that is pecisely when the unborn want to be killed. Right?

I have no doubt that just as in the case of the unborn someone else will make the decision to abort the oxygenation of nothing more than a mass of cells.

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35epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

@ LovinLife

"JennyChan, your logic seems a bit flawed."

- Christians don't believe in logic so don't pretend. If you want to continue this we could discuss such logical concepts such as transubstantiation, glossolalia, faith healing, straight camps, Joel's army, etc etc etc.... It's better for fundies to stick to their strengths of issuing fatwas against baby killers. Logic isn't a game for people who ignore the truth.

"As an atheist, you have no basis for universal truth."

Universal truth? Sounds like an extra helping of oprah-mumbo-jumbo. Atheists believe in living life to the fullest. They believe you only have this moment and that you should live it well with no regrets. Experience the world as it is for all it's beauty and filth, not wallowing to invisible gods that likely aren't there.

I'm sure Stan can craft a witty animal sex response to the above paragraph.

"...Since your morality is nothing more than your opinion..."

All religion is opinion. Atheism falls into that category as well. Look in the mirror you keep in your glass house before you head out for a stoning.

"...In your sad, hopeless atheist existence..."

Mean spirited ad hominem attacks only demolish any argument you have to being Christlike.

Typical style of the self-righteous person cobbling together arguments on the basis that their "morality" is the only morality and their "truth" is the only truth. You see this behavior at work in Iran now. You see it at work anywhere freedom of thought is opposed by religion.

@ Jenny

Remember: Not all religious people should be stereotyped by the nonsense you read here.

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36Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


Not all killing is murder, of course. Murder is actually a small subset of all killing, which includes accidental homicide, killing in self-defense, suicide, euthanasia, etc. When pro-life activists call abortion "murder," they are suggesting that abortion fits the definition of murder, namely, "illegal killing with malice aforethought." However, abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, mothers hardly feel malice towards their own unborn children.

Some might object the first point is overly legalistic. Just because killing is legal doesn't make it right. Exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany was certainly legal, but few doubt that it was murder.

But why do we still consider the Holocaust murder? The answer is that we hold the Nazis to a higher law. When the Nazis were tried in Nuremberg for their war crimes, they were not accused of "crimes against Germans" or even "crimes against Jews." Instead, they were charged with "crimes against humanity." The reason is because there was no legal basis to charge them otherwise. The massacre of Jews was legal under German law. So in order to punish the German leaders for clearly wrong behavior, the Allies had to evoke a higher law, a law of humanity. The Holocaust was condemned as illegal, and therefore murder, because it violated this law.

Many pro-life advocates claim that the same reasoning applies to abortion. Although abortion is legal under current U.S. law, it is not legal when it is held up to a higher law, namely, the law of God.

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37Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

It is pointless to discuss any issues with people like stan. They keep repeating the same points over and over and over and over and over. "60,000 unborn", "the most innocent" and "Abortions = Holocaust". Comparing abortions to the Holocaust is comparing apples to oranges. The doctors do not go and abduct these women from their homes and FORCE them to have an abortion. Wake Up Stan!

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38Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

So Realist,tell me why it is moral to abort a perfectly healthy baby?

The unborn have the same rights under a higher law as you or I. I am composed of cells and a beating heart the same as the unborn. The very existence of the unborn makes him or her a target for the abortionist.

The ancient city of Carthage was the capital of the Phoenician empire. Their civilization was advanced culturally and highly educated. But recent archaeological expeditions have revealed its most notable feature - the high incidence of child sacrifice. Archaeological relics have been uncovered, such as the altars on which children were sacrificed and stone markers, which marked the burial place of the remains. Stone carvings on the markers depict children who were sacrificed. Clay jars were used to hold the remains. Entire burial grounds full of these slaughtered children have been uncovered.

As barbaric as this sounds, we must remember that this is precisely what we do through abortion. With one obvious exception - today we don't honor or bury the children we kill.

Archaeologists have established that the primary deity that they children were sacrificed to was the goddess Tanet, the name being a regional representation of the more universal Ashteroth.

The typical rationalist would attribute these rites to superstition and would suggest that science and intellectual advancement would cause this type of unfortunate behavior to lessen and finally cease. But archaeologists have discovered that over Carthage's history, the incident of child sacrifice, even in the face of considerable intellectual advances, actually increased until it suddenly stopped.

And how did it stop? When God judged Carthage. Roman armies invaded and suddenly destroyed the entire civilization. The stark ruins of Carthage are a testimony that God is not mocked. We have to ask ourselves: How far are we from a judgment for our own abortion holocaust?

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39LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

And still, no answer to my direct questions. Only attacks filled with venom. If you read carefully what I said, I was not arguing anything about this issue on the basis of faith.

My arguments and my questions were based on simple logic, which you have not and cannot answer, because your position falls apart like a house of cards.

I can't argue any issue using faith as the basis against people who have no faith. I did not try to. I can, and did, argue using logic alone. That too is impossible when discussing things with people who refuse to use it.

I simply made the point that as an atheist, your morals and Hitlers are equally valid, and you can claim no moral superiority over Hitler.

So again I ask, if there is no God, by what basis are your morals "right" and Hitler's "wrong"? Majority rules? You are smarter? Flip a coin?

And again I ask, is it only a life when it can "breath and function on it's own", or is it when it can "breath and function on it's own without problems"?

Neither of these questions has any element of Christianity vs. atheism. JennyChan painted herself into a logical corner with no way out except to change the subject by lashing out at religion.

And you EpicFail did likewise.

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40hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

On statistics: The CDC or Planned Parenthood cannot give me the number of abortions Dr. Tiller performed. Only the anti-abortion sites give that estimate. And you are right about this: it is unbelievable that one doctor could perform that many procedures. That's because the anti-abortion groups exaggerated them.

So LovinLife,
You actually believe that in China or India, which do not have a Judeo-Christian culture, people just steal, lie, murder, molest children, dishonor their parents, etc.?
I suggest you travel more. If that is not an option, then read more.

Honestly anti-abortion rights groups turn off people like me, who can see their point about late term abortions, but are driven away by all the exaggeration, hate, murder, and especially, verbal attacks on ill pregnant women trying to get into their doctor. I actually wonder if these groups aren't doing more harm than good by their tactics.

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41Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


I am not sure why the story about Carthage but there are other theories about Carthage that range from the graveyards were filled with the remains of the stillborn and extremely ill children up to two years old to the graveyards were created by the Roman army after they slaughtered all of the children of the town. Nice try to pick out the points that strengthen your argument and neglect the other assumptions of what MIGHT of happened.

But where you lost me is when you said the invisible man in the sky brought the armys to destroy the entire civilization because of child sacrafice. The Roman's declared war on Carthage because Carthage waged a war against a neighboring country (Numidia) without the consent of the Roman Council.

Stan: I must let you know that I personally don't believe abortion is right but It is not my choice to decide what one can do with their own body.

Another question Stan: What do you think is worse - abortion or priests who get charged with molesting children?

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42LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

HellsBells, history is full of people and cultures who have not agreed that murder is wrong...Hitler, Stalin, Muslim jihadists, suicide bombers, Darfur, Pol Pot, Rwanda, Somalia, Hussein, and on and on and on.

Now, most people of course think murder is wrong. But as I pointed out, it is far from unanimous.

So, here is my very simple point: Two atheists have a discussion.

Atheist 1: "Murder is wrong"
Atheist 2: "Murdering my enemies is fine".

To say that Atheist 1's morals are "better" than Atheist 2's morals requires a baseline for comparison. There has to be a standard to compare against whenever you judge one thing better than the other. Atheist 1 thinks their moral stance is better; atheist 2 thinks theirs is.

If I say "the Boston Red Sox are better than the Cleveland Indians", the standard for comparison is assumed by most people to be the won-loss record.

So, what is the standard for comparison in the Atheist 1 vs. Atheist 2 argument? Only 2 possible answers: either there is no standard and no judgement of which is better is possible (my position), or the majority determines the standard.

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43LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

And JennyChan speaks and avoids the questions she can't answer yet again...

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44Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Choices in life bear consequences. Are some choices worse than others? The taking of a life takes superiority above all other wrong choices. Hence a mother chooses to have an abortion but the doctor does the actual killing. Society has rules where you can be charged with murder by being a part of a group involved in a killing. In recent times the killing of the unborn was sanctioned. This still does not make it right. In our Almighty's view condoning or promoting something wrong makes you complicit as well. Didn't the doctor take an oath to preserve life? This compounds the issue in the view of our Almighty. What is Christianity but an oath to live by the rules of God ?

Atheism is living without the parameters of morality. An atheist sees no moral obligation to do or not to do anything that they desire. Those who choose it have no boundries to restrict them in any endeavor.

Legitimate religions cherish innocent life above all. Mankind did not populate this earth nor replenish those who died of old age by killing those of us starting on the journey of life.

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45epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

The Point of Morality?

So what's the point of being moral if God doesn't exist? It's the same "point" that people should acknowledge if God does exist: because the happiness and suffering of other human beings matter to us such that we should seek, whenever possible, to increase their happiness and decrease their suffering. It's also the "point" that morality is required for human social structures and human communities to survive at all. Neither the presence nor the absence of any gods can change this, and while religious theists may find that their beliefs impact their moral decisions, they cannot claim that their beliefs are prerequisites for making any moral decisions at all.


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46Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

So JennyChan, since molesting is on your mind what do you have an urge to molest? Perhaps we can get you some mental help to quench the urge.

BTW, Tiller is in the grave and it wasn't my choice to have him killed nor can I resurrect him. The abortionists are milking all the sympathy than they can for their cause over his death. You however champion the killing of the unborn. Such hate for the innocent mystifies me. However I do see what atheism is all about

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47AtownParent(564 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

You can not possibly see what Atheism is about with the incorrect statements you have made on this thread. Being an atheist or not being an atheist makes no difference to this argument. It is a woman's body. You do not get to choose if the negligent parent who has numerous children and abuses them all gets their tubes tied so they can not bring anymore children into the world, so why would you get to choose if a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy. You determine life at conception, others determine it when the fetus can survive without the mother. You are no more or less right than anyone because there is no standard to base that decision on, it is merely opinion and juxtaposition. Religion does not belong in government or medicine.

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48Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Great Post Atown!

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49Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Registering a new nick just to post on this thread. I am impressed! Well multi-nicks, if you clone yourself a few more times your logic should improve. So far we have seen that atheists have no respect for life,old or young but atheism has nothing to do with morality. Right?

BTW I am impressed that you have managed to open up an email account ! Are things slow at the clinic today?

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50LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

JennyChan, every time you are asked a pointed question, you change the subject to molestation.

Why can't you answer simple questions? Is it because you don't base your beliefs on sound logic, you base them on feelings?

Keep your lack of logic out of my decisions!

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51LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Boofers20, you are right, those are tough cases that I would pray no one would have to face.

Now how about case 3: Your daughter gets pregnant and her piece of trash boyfriend/husband pressures her into getting an abortion against her will.

Which one of the three do you think happens most often? Recent polls back up the notion that the majority of women felt pressured by their boyfriend/husband/family. Having a choice is not as liberating for women as it is intended to be.

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52noname2post(7 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

I love how these comments go way off topic and become an immature form of high school speech and debate. Hitler, Catholisism, the elderly in nursing homes, and ejaculating into a towel---the examples we come up with to defend our beliefs are both understandable and insane at times. It seems like nobody tries to understand the other person's point of view. And I'm not talking about the posts, but also the women who have gotten abortions and people who perform them as well. Why do they feel this way? Religion? Morals? Personal experience? Feminism? What would you do if you were a pregnant woman and faced with this situation because you were raped? You or your spouse's life is endangered during child birth----what do you decide during those critical moments? There are too many circumstances for a good vs evil debate.

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53Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Lets face up to the truth. Most babies are killed because they are inconvenient. The value of the unborn has been cheepened by law so that they can be slaughtered.

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54Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"Morality developed long before the concept of God.

Yeah,like the Mayans practicing cannibalism.

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55LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"Morality developed long before the concept of God".

So did logic, JennyChan. You should try it sometime!

Intelligent debate needs a common ground. I tried to find that common ground in logic, you know, like the "if a=b and b=c then a=c" kinda stuff. Problem was, when I asked "if a=b and b=c then what does a = ?", the response was that all Catholics should shut up because priests molested people.

Guess I shouldn't have expected more from someone who decides what is moral on "what most of the atheists I know think". Sigh.

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56hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Your argument would be more persuasive if you actually chose more atheists.
By the way, you may be interested to know that Stalin was educated in an Orthodox seminary, and Pol Pot in a Catholic School. The moslems you named, of course, are religious, sharing your God, prophets, and many of your stories.
Darfur, Rwanda, and Somalia are countries, not individuals, filled with people of varying religions.

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57epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

@ LovinLife

Drop the ray comfort shtick.

The fact of the matter is atheists don't need anything to justify their morality. It exists without a supernatural component. They are 'good' because they want to be treated well themselves and enjoy life.

This is not a judeo-christian creation. I'd like to see where the jews of the old testament were good for goodness sake. They were, as lewis black put it, ten hairs away form a baboon. You don't see real morality in the bible until Christ. Yet by then morality as we know was already in play in the world.

For Jenny and her 'atheists friends' harmony and reciprocation are the basis of morality, not promises of rewards or the looming threat of eternal abandonment.

@ Stan

"Yeah,like the Mayans practicing cannibalism."

Thank God we don't do that anymore!


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58LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

HellBells, read carefully. I did not list atheists...I listed people and cultures that don't believe murder is wrong. We all know that great evil has been done by people claiming to follow belief systems that forbid it. Couldn't agree with you more.

EpicFail, could you point me to one post by JChan here that was written in the spirit of "harmony and reciprocation"? I never said one thing about her needing to justify her morality. Not one. I simply asked her to justify why her morality was "better" than someone who thinks murder is okay. What is the standard for making that comparison?

As I said before, I can only see two answers. Either her morality and Hitler's are equal because everyone decides their own morals; or hers is better because some "majority" believes it.

If the first one is the answer, you forfeit the right to judge anyone else's morals or deem one set of morals "better".

If you go with majority rules version, your morality is situational and changes over time. That's fine. The most recent Gallup poll now claims that the majority of people consider themselves pro-life. By your own definition then, abortion is immoral.

HB, EF, and JC, you all keep taking the discussion back to religion and religious hyprocrites. Your hatred for all things religious is obvious, and frankly, not one bit interesting or relevant to the issue I am discussing. It is a smokescreen because you are either unable or unwilling to answer the simple questions in the context they were asked.

So if you are going to respond, try to keep religion out of the response, since I am not making a religious point here. I'm not attacking anyone - I enjoy the debate and I am interested in your answers as long as they are focused on the topic.

So again I ask, by what basis are your morals "right" and Hitler's "wrong"? Or are they both equally "right"?

And again I ask, is it only a life when it can "breath and function on it's own", or is it when it can "breath and function on it's own without problems"?

See? Not one reference to religion in my questions! Not one iota of judgement about atheism vs. religion! Nothing right wing or left wing!

JChan, the challenge is laid down. I'm betting you can't/won't answer my questions. And I'm betting you won't post without some rant about the right wing or priests or something that is not relevant to the topic in my post at all.

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59NewsGeek26(14 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

As a Christian I believe that all life is a gift from God. I feel bad for those who are unbelievers because of where they are going to go when they die. I don't see why anyone would want to take the chance of going to Hell "if" we are right. It's just not a chance I would be willing to take. I wonder sometimes too that if abortion was illegal there would be less abortions. Young teenagers that get are sexually active don't have worries because they are able to just go and get an abortion. I agree that there are very difficult situations, but I can honestly say that no matter what the situation I would NEVER get an abortion. Whether I'm raped or it may cost me my life. Either way that "glob of cells" is a part of me so there would be no way that I could abort. God alone should determine a person's moment of conception as well as their moment of death. So yes both the guy who murdered the Dr. and the Dr. himself have commited a sin. All sins are the same to God just different consequences. The Dr. is being accountable for his sins right now whether he's in Hell for not being a believer or his number of crowns in Heaven. The murderer will pay for his sins too. We all do, but if you are a believer you will be forgiven. Those who are unbelievers will not and my heart and prayers go out to you.

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60Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Well JennyChan, today you are providing us with liberal entertainment here at the Vindy. In the past you could have been the guest of honor at a Mayan festival providing some much needed protein.

There is no need for religion or morality. You just go with the flow until you go over the falls. Enjoy the ride while it lasts JennyChan.

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61LovinLife(20 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

JennyChan, I win the bet!

You simply can't answer direct questions. I didn't ask you what your view of morality is. Read my questions again, and answer them. If you can't then stop posting responses to mine.

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62Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Morality is a necessity? The liberal viewpoint is that morality is a constriction of their rights. Of course when their world comes crashing down the conservatives get the blame as the liberals have no accountability.

So you like my avatar?

This is the real you

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63epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"I never said one thing about her needing to justify her morality. Not one. I simply asked her to justify why her morality was "better" than someone who thinks murder is okay."

That's a double bind in my book.

Regarding morality, my personal opinion is that the 'best' morality comes with the least pain and the most rewards. It changes over times as people and society grow. However the trends lead in a single direction: More personal freedom, longer, more productive lives and a flourishing of culture.

A 'good' morality also safeguards the weakest members of society from exploitation. I think we can agree Christianity meets a lot of that criteria. Where I see it falter is that it doesn't change. Some people argue that as a strength.

Take the priest scandal. It's a symptom of a culture that's greatest strength and weakness is it's steadfast commitment to tradition.

That's just my two centrs...

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64ysugirl913(14 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

I would like to add my Atheist two cents to the mix.
This isn't about religion but everyone is making it out to be, as JennyChan stated her Atheist friends are more moral people than most Christians. Same here.
Stan never answered the question, and neither did any of the other pro-lifers but I demand an answer after reading this garbage spewing on for days.
The question being, how many children are you going to take in when abortion is illegal again? Do you all have a cute little pack of kids running around your homes?
Oh that is a shame.... where are these children supposed to go when they are born then?
Some of pro choices will adopt them of course, but will you? Since I have read many of your collective groups other posts I also know that many of you are bigots who only think the affluent white should be allowed any decent treatment. So what about the little crack head babies? Momma needed her fix and gee with what you all want, she couldn't get her abortion so now deformed drug addicted children that are unadoptable get unvoluntarily brought into this world?
Think about it fools.
I saw some incredible reason on this board tonight and not from the so called Moral Christians, because we all know you aren't going to take care of these unaborted children... are you?

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65Realist(62 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Don't hold your breath for an answer to that ysugirl. I asked the same question last week and no one had an answer for it.

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66Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"how many children are you going to take in when abortion is illegal again?"

So you admit that abortion is primarily for birth control. Our family does not abort children and we always have room.

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67hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


You need to learn rule 1: Men don't take responsibility for family life.
Just like the john that provided Ms. Addict with the fix. He disappears like the smoke.

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68ysugirl913(14 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Stan, asking how many children are you going to take in when abortion is illegal again does not imply that abortion is for birth control. It asks a simple question, and here is an example why it is relevant.
Not all abortions are products of rape, but more than any statistic will tell are. So every woman who was raped, molested, abused should be forced to deliver a baby that is half the person who abused hers? Does this make any sense? NO!
Not every abortion, again, results from this. Yet it happens more than most people realize.
Also if you always have room, why so? There are plenty of children already alive and have been neglected and abused their entire lives that need homes. Have you adopted any? Do you foster them? Let us worry about these children before any of these other things that you feel are so relevant. Let us change their lives for the positive before they make their parents mistakes and become a drain on our society.
Oh and before you grill me what my answer to that question is, I am a divorced mom who is finishing her schooling, when I am in my chosen career field I plan on adopting as many children as need me.

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69Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Sorry to hear of your divorce. Being bitter toward all men wont help your past. So I take it that the marriage didn't yield any children. If others shared the feeling of compassion toward children that my family does then we wouldn't have rampant abortion nationwide. Lack of homes for these children is no excuse as many couples who have no children are forced to adopt from abroad.

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70ysugirl913(14 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Stan.... you didn't read what I wrote did you? you skimmed it. I have a child, and I am certainly not bitter towards men. My opinion has been longstanding, since I found out my own mother had an abortion when she was a teenager.People are forced to adopt from abroad because they don't want damaged goods, they don't want the chance that the birth parent might petition to see the child. I thought this was common knowledge, why do you think so many children are in foster care in this area? They have drug addict parents who can't make up thier mind to be clean. You are telling me that people are forced to adopt from abroad because they are no children left to adopt in the United States? That every child has a comfortable warm bed in a home with plenty of food in a safe neighborhood? Wow... this is news to me and probably most of the world.

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71Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"They have drug addict parents who can't make up thier mind to be clean."

Respect for life and morality are passed down from the parents to the children. Why are neighborhoods unsafe? It is because they are tolerated. They were made unsafe by the very people living there.

So lets sum it all up in retrospect. The first responce to morality is,"STAY OUT OF MY LIFE". The people want to do their thing and not be held responsible for their actions. The rules have been put there for a reason. To keep order. Without order there is collapse.

Those who adopt abroad have tried to adopt here in the States. They found the red tape too restrictive. We would rather abort children,place others in foster care and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm glad to hear that you have one child. Unless you raise that child with rules and guidance you will have a disappointment.

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72timOthy(802 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hey right wingers it's a women right to choose hell the Daddy might be a worthless Republican !

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73Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

timOthy :

I see that you are a reflection of your raising.

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74timOthy(802 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Yeah Stan what ever you say want a be. What are you a Republican Mason !!!!!!!

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75epicfail(217 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

"They found the red tape too restrictive. We would rather abort children,place others in foster care and let the chips fall where they may."

Good point, the "red tape" is typical bureaucracy. It's intended to protect but instead is self-defeating. All we end up with is parents adopting elsewhere and our own orphans being left in state care. Very sad indeed.

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76timOthy(802 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

epicfail Let the chips fall where they may ! Well they could become orphans or they could go to Republican boot camp . Then go fight a WAR of MASS DESTRUCTION. What Morals !!!

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77Stan(9923 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago


The Obama boot camp of today is in Afghanistan. The weapons of mass destruction are in our cities where the career unemployed on welfare are destroying 24/7. I believe that Barack has a clandestine plan to send them to Afghanistan on a search and destroy mission.

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