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City employees free to leave, and they will over time



Published: Sun, June 14, 2009 @ 12:00 a.m.

City employees free to leave, and they will over time

Do not believe the soothing words of public employee union officials who claim that last week’s ruling by the Ohio Supreme Court upholding a state law that gutted residency requirements for municipal employees will not result in an exodus of city employees to the suburbs.

It may not happen immediately because of the depressed real estate market, but it will happen. For a quick reality check, look at the eligibility list for Warren’s new police chief. The two captains and four lieutenants on that list were all hired before the city began enforcing a residency requirement. None lives in the city.

It’s economics: most public employees, especially those on the safety forces, earn more than most city residents. They earn suburban wages; they demand permission to live suburban lives.

Stretching the law

A coalition of General Assembly Democrats who are beholden to public employee unions and some Republicans with a libertarian stripe responded to that demand. They went out of their way to tell city residents that they could not require that the employees they are paying to protect and serve must also be their neighbors.

The common defense of this state intrusion into city governance was that the employees have a right to live wherever they want. The Supreme Court of the United States has clearly ruled that such is not the case. City residents have the right to say who they want to hire; perspective employees have a right to take the job with its residency requirements or to leave it.

State legislators took the broadest possible reading of an article of Ohio’s Constitution that was designed to protect workers against exploitation to overrule the clear intent of city residents to require their employees to live in the city. Five members of the Ohio Supreme Court aided and abetted the dismantling of an important part of home rule.

Cities now face three alternatives: mount a drive for a constitutional amendment (an expense proposition with limited chances for success), watch their employees, especially those at the top scale, become commuters with no more loyalty to the community than a paycheck buys, or marshal municipal voters to throw out those legislators who supported the assault on residency rules and elect representatives who will actually represent them.


Comments

1timOthy(802 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Well it has arrived ! I'm against this decision ! Public Servants need to live in their city, village, county,township. and state. Though the pool of people is bigger the need of people is greater. Who knows who's stores used tires for instance. People living in the coumminty, or people driving to their home from work? We know the answer . Those Judges that made the decesion most likely live in the burbs. What do you exspect them to decided ? It's a no Brainer ! I guess this is part of the new World Order. Look out America !

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2NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

All right, now for a fact or two. When residency was first repealed, many communities chose not to fight it. So, did Boardman, Austintown, and so on, lose droves of workers? Was there a mass exodus from the suburbs to the further-out suburbs and rural areas? The answer is no. A mere handful moved out. So it would be in the city. What will happen is that, through attrition, new hires may not want to move IN. They may not want to leave friends and family, uproot their kids and put them in new schools, find a new church, and all of that. The city, instead of playing the heavy-handed tyrant, should be giving its workers reasons to stay. It should be striving to make the city a desirable place to live. It should be making new hires WANT to move into the city. I'm not going to go into how to do that - everybody knows the faults and defects Youngstown has.

And listen, whoever wrote the editorial, you're comparing apples to oranges when you try to use people who pre-date residency not living in the city to bolster your crying wolf about employees just waiting to flee. The two have nothing in common.

I'm sick of the illogical falsehood that forced residency somehow translates to happier, more productive workers who display more loyalty and efficiency than those who are not forced to live somewhere they don't want to live.

I also find the incessant whining the VIndy does concerning public safety employees to be growing tiresome. Your envy and your ignorance is coming through, loud and clear. The very first sentence of the editorial starts out bad-mouthing public employees, and who cares if those who risk their lives to protect us make a little more than someone else?

What possible gain does the city get from not allowing their employees the same freedom that virtually everyone else enjoys? Does the city lose income tax money? No. Do they lose property tax money? No, because if someone moves out, they sell their house. If they sell it, someone bought it. The house is still owned, and the new owner still pays taxes on it. If the employee would just abandon the property instead of selling it, shame on the city for not collecting the property tax - they still know who owns it if it hasn't changed hands, and they still know where the owner works, which means they also know where he now lives, so they'll get their money either way.

What exactly does the city lose, beside having hundreds of families under their all-powerful thumb?

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3joesmoe(48 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

NoBS excellent reply. Keep up the good work.

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4paulydel(1458 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

I was always for public safety personel living where they work but now not so much anymore becasue you can ahve ajob one day and it be gone the next. So why force someone to move chance are they will be alot longer living where they are at than keeping the job.

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5jr99(101 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

It's funny and interesting how this newspaper can bash public employees, especially the safety forces, by saying they make too much money (to quote this wonderful paper: "suburban wages"), but yet they support $10.00 and $20.00 an hour raises public defenders in Mahoning County are getting. Allow me to explain. Public defenders in Mahoning County will go from making $45.00 an hour for work done out of court to $50.00 an hour effective 01/01/10, and from $55 for work done in court to $60.00 and hour, also effective 01/01/10. The previous rates were $40.00 for work done out of court and $50.00 for work done in court. The rates prior to those? $30.00 and $40.00, respectively. In an editorial on 02/06/08, this very insightful paper stated (and I quote),"...the increase in fees is long overdue." Really??!! So let me get this straight: you bash police officers and firefighters for making too much money, and for wanting to live where they want, but you support attorneys who make up to $60.00 an hour defending the criminals who terrorize innocent, law-abiding citizens. I can just imagine the outcry if a police officer made $60.00 an hour. The editorial also points out how much more money the greedy attorneys are costing Mahoning County. In 2007, Mahoning County spent $1.8 million on public defenders; $500,000 more than in 2006. In 2008, $2.6 million. The county's budget for that year? $1.85 million. But again, it's ok for scumbag attorneys to rob the county, but no way should a police officer or fireman have a decent income and live where they choose. How about this: let's have residency requiremants for attorneys. If a snake (I'm sorry, I meant attorney) is on the public defender list in Mahoning County, they should have to live within Mahoning County. If they are on the list in Trumbull or Columbiana counties, they must live in those respective counties. But that would never fly, because the snakes (I'm sorry, I did it again. I mean attorneys) would b***h and cry and stomp around and file lawsuit after lawsuit until they got their way. Or how about this idea: when someone calls 911 because they just got robbed, or someone assaulted them, or their house is on fire, or any other type of emergency where the safety and well-being of someone is at risk, send attorneys. They can catch the criminal, arrest him, and then immediately fight to get them back on the streets. So the next time you decide to puff out your chest and bash the police and fire departments for making a little bit more money than you think is deserved for protecting your ass, include the attorneys who help put those dangerous people back on the streets.

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6Tugboat(759 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

NoBs wrote: "I'm sick of the illogical falsehood that forced residency somehow translates to happier, more productive workers who display more loyalty and efficiency than those who are not forced to live somewhere they don't want to live."

Boardman's Police Chief(Bowers)and Captains all resided outside of Boardman Township and it was considered one of the best PDs in the area and the Vindy didn't complain about where they lived.

Good post, BS!

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7UnionForever(1470 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST !!! It's great for people including city employees to live where they want to live. That's called Freedom. It was great to see all the unions join together to support this bill in the legislature and the lawsuit that had to follow against the greedy cities.

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8hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

It would be refreshing to see the safety forces make a fraction of the comments and energy they have used toward this issue on issues that affect the communities that hired them and that they have sworn to serve.

How about some education for the citizens on gun issues, fire hazards, children's safety, etc.?

No. Instead the emphasis is on GETTING OUT and contempt for the community they asked to draw a paycheck from.

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9VINDYAK(1821 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Where an employee lives has no effect on the job at hand, other than possibly distance from work.
When hiring employees, you want to be able to attract the best and not exclude those who happen to live outside the city.

As in private industry, employees in the valley feel Youngstown is their "metro" home city and feel bound to its health, welfare and prosperity. We all want Youngstown to succeed and want to be proud of saying we are from Youngstown, even though we may live in a 'burb. That is why the posts you read are so passionate. There is a lot of frustration over the loss of employment, depressive housing, growing crime, and failing leaders.

City employees living in the city or out of the city changes nothing. All of them are subjected to supervision and must perform in order to keep their jobs. Allowing employees to live outside of the city actually gives the city more power over the metro area.

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10NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells, you obviously have an axe to grind with your public safety departments - why don't you stop in and give them the benefit of your wisdom in person?

City Dweller, this isn't a "city vs suburbs" issue. Why are you trying to make it one? And regarding your comment about people abandoning houses, tell me - are the EMPLOYED people abandoning their houses, or are people who have no jobs doing that? And my statement is valid - property owners are supposed to pay property taxes, whether they live in the city or not. And how demoralizing would it be to have a job you like, and watch the neighborhood around you deteriorate into filth and crime, and you're trapped there? Your kids have to grow up with gang-bangers and drug dealers right outside the house. You see other people moving where they want, but you can't. Tell me, would you keep working for that city and put up with living in deplorable conditions, or would you not only move from the city, but quit working there and find another job too? You can't keep good employees if you treat them like slaves - this isn't China, we have freedoms here that allow most people to live where they want. Are public employees second-class citizens who don't deserve those same rights?

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11hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Well, NoBS...
I think your post illustrates the "ax to grind" I have with city workers. You want freedom? You are free to get a paycheck from someone else.

My neighborhood, next to Millcreek's Scholl Playground is nothing like your description of " the neighborhood around you deteriorate into filth and crime, and you're trapped there? Your kids have to grow up with gang-bangers and drug dealers right outside the house."

And you know the truth, despite your comments. As for the threat implied in your introduction... it's proof of what I said, and you can add a bullying attitude.

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12JeffLebowski(953 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Some very good posts here, kids, especially from NoBS and jr99 -- my compliments. To further NoBS' point regarding Communist China, "this is not 'Nam, Smokey...there are rules."

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13hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Excuse me, Nacho, but aren't those "merits" largely in the hands of these very employees? Whose offering the "crap sandwich"? They themselves?
#1 concern in the city: safety
#2 ? shopping centers

Positives: good quality water
good sewer systems
good garbage collection and recycling
school choice
sidewalks and playgrounds, including
those run by the park
public transportation
libraries (except on my own side of town where the branch is supposed to close)

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14NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells, your posts drip with envy of those public service jobs, and your apparent desire to somehow "get even" with them because they have a secure job that pays above minimum wage. That holds true through all 3 of your posts in this thread. And why not examine your own threat (albeit an impotent one, since you presumably have no actual authority over the public employees) that if they don't like the working conditions you want to shove down their throats, there's no talking, no reasoning, no FOLLOWING STATE LAW - just like it or leave it. And that's what I said in an earlier post - the good employees, who will have no trouble getting another job elsewhere, will leave. The dregs won't. Tell me, will that help or hurt Y-town?

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15hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

With the exception of some downtown administrators, I earn more than city employees. I guess that explains my house in the nice neighborhood which you seem unaware of. That seems odd for someone who should be aware of the streets in the city. But then again, maybe it explains the slow response time, that I had always defended as the police being busy in crime hotspots.

But maybe not. Just a need for a gps.

I'm not jealous. If you really are a police officer or fire fighter, good for you. But I just ask you to try to remember when you were applying for the job. Did it seem like a "crap sandwich" at the time? Were you unaware of the residency requirement?

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16blkpride(186 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells, there is a residency requirement. We just don't HANE TO live in the city where we work. IF a city employee lives outside the city he works, you are still going to get the same if not better quality of service. For one, you open up the hiring pool and attrract more qualifide applicants and the list goes on. There is no argument for forcing someone to live in the city besides "I said so!" There are many reasons to live in the city, which I do. I get the opportunity to stop in and see my children and wife when I work unusual hours. Another. I am less than 5 min from work. However, if lets say, my wife was to get a job offer in. let's say, Cleveland, because there are no jobs in this area that deserve her qualifications, we now are able to move somewhere half way. Something that any other person would be able to do.

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17NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells wrote: "With the exception of some downtown administrators, I earn more than city employees."

The instrument has yet to be built that's sensitive enough to detect how little I care about how much you claim you make. In discussions where some people are pro public service wages and others are anti public service wages, at some point someone who is complaining about the public service wages ALWAYS claims he makes more than they do, as if that gives them more of a right to complain about the wages of others.

"I guess that explains my house in the nice neighborhood which you seem unaware of."

Again, it's not that I'm unaware. but that I don't care. It has no bearing whatever on this discussion, so why do you feel compelled to mention it, if not to use it to try to put yourself up as superior to those of us who don't live where you do.

"That seems odd for someone who should be aware of the streets in the city. But then again, maybe it explains the slow response time, that I had always defended as the police being busy in crime hotspots.

But maybe not. Just a need for a gps'

No, really what happens is that the workers keep a database of all citizens, and certain people get priority treatment, while others must wait. That's what you suspect anyway, isn't it?

I'm not jealous. If you really are a police officer or fire fighter, good for you. But I just ask you to try to remember when you were applying for the job. Did it seem like a "crap sandwich" at the time? Were you unaware of the residency requirement?"

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that neighborhoods have deteriorated over the years? Even in the suburbs, what was a nice area 20 years ago might not be so nice now. So just move to another neighborhood within the city, you say? That's how the west side ended up with the little community comprised almost entirely of public employees that the Vindicator has written scathing articles about, as if even this is to be looked down upon, as if those public servants are getting away with something by wanting to have other employed people for neighbors.

Bottom line is that there aren't supposed to be any second-class citizens in the US any more. So why are we still insisting the public servants go to the back of the bus?

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18Silence_Dogood(1501 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

I think it was Ross Perot that said we will hear a great sucking sound heading south if he did not get elected.This Mayor want's you to think there is going to be a great sucking sound as City workers head south if they are allowed to live were they want to. Well the winds have not picked up one iota,and they wont either,this is just another example of the vindy carrying the water for Cith Hall.
Jay if you want to keep good workers in this town work on the crime rate,enforce the laws that are on the books.The other MAJOR hurdle is the School System,which City Hall has no control over.The schools in Youngstown have been turning out Thugs and Idiots at a vastly disproportinate rate then the rest of the State,how in Gods name do you stop that trend.
In a nutshell this is Youngstowns dilemma,the residency issue is a red hearing that the Politicians have grabbed a hold of because they do not have the fortitude to take on the REAL PROBLEMS of Youngstown.

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19hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Give me a break, BS.
I only mentioned my income because of your claim that I was jealous of your paycheck. :-)

What I would like is for you to chuck all the drama and pathos trying to equate your situation with freedom and civil rights.

You always had freedom. But you wanted that paycheck from the city. Period.

The rest of your post is horrifying. For example, your statement that,
"No, really what happens is that the workers keep a database of all citizens, and certain people get priority treatment, while others must wait. "

I don't know how to interpret that statement. You mean the one time in a lifetime that I call police, I am put at the bottom of the list? I hope this doesn't apply to the firestation.

Glad to see you live in the city, blkpride. I agree there are good reasons to do so. (Including incentives to buy houses given by the city that most city residents don't get and aren't aware of.)

But moving halfway to Cleveland? Sorry I can't see that for a member of the safety forces. The best thing you guys can do for yourselves is quit posting before we get any angrier and dedicate ourselves to defeating levies from now on.

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20Justin2204(13 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

As someone actually IN the schools, it amazes me what some "grownups" will say, even when they are commenting on another topic.

Silence Do Good, maybe you should have stayed true to your name. The schools are "turning out Thugs and Idiots"? Ouch. I'm neither. And if some students are, who turned them out? I'd say their families turned them out for the schools to deal with.

If the schools create thugs and idiots, then the police must create crime and the fire department must create arson.

Someone wrote a letter to the editor today complaining about fights at Borts Pool. So I guess pools turn out fighters.

Anyway, talk about red herrings. Kids living in Y-town today have a lot of choices from suburban open enrollment schools (Struthers, Lowellville, Liberty, Austintown, McDonald, Mineral Ridge, Columbiana... there's one for every side of town) to private schools, all with vouchers (Mooney, Ursuline, Yo. Christian, Akiva) to charter schools, even some online that let you work from home, to going to school on the Y.S.U. campus at Youngstown Early College.

If I can think of these in 8th grade, wouldn't you think an adult could too?

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21blkpride(186 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hells, your argument about freedom and civil rights equates to a white store owner telling a black man to go to a black business.

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22cambridge(3332 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

The last refuge of the inarticulate redneck hick.

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23NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells>"Give me a break, BS.
I only mentioned my income because of your claim that I was jealous of your paycheck. :-)"

OK, if you say so.

hb>"What I would like is for you to chuck all the drama and pathos trying to equate your situation with freedom and civil rights."

Fine. You do the same. Here's the non-drama, non-pathetic version: I do not believe, and have never believed, that there was or is anything at all beneficial about forcing someone to live anywhere other than where they choose. I find the claim that forcing someone to live where they do not want to live somehow makes them a better employee to be absurd, ridiculous, and insulting to the intelligence of everyone they try to tell that load of crap. Evidently, the state of Ohio, and several levels of our court system, agree with me, given that the ruling has been upheld each and every time it's been challenged. Further, I object to the pisssing away of tax money that could be doing something constructive on repeated attempts to somehow find a loophole in the law. You know what they say about the definition of an idiot - someone who does the same thing over and over and expects different results each time.

hb>"The rest of your post is horrifying. For example, your statement that,
"No, really what happens is that the workers keep a database of all citizens, and certain people get priority treatment, while others must wait. "

I don't know how to interpret that statement. You mean the one time in a lifetime that I call police, I am put at the bottom of the list? I hope this doesn't apply to the firestation."

That statement was tongue-in-cheek, which I thought you'd recognize because of its absurd nature. Come on, you've heard it if you haven't said it yourself - the perception is that some people get preferential treatment over others. That statement was in reply to your assumption that I work for the city, and your implied insult contained therein.You know - the one about the slow response and the need for a GPS?

And my comparison of the way some people, including you, hellsbells, would like to treat public servants to certain facets of the civil rights movement is a valid comparison. Why are you willing to single out a group of people and discriminate against them? You give lip service to police and fire, yet you don't consider them worthy of the same right to live where they choose that you yourself have.

The city loses nothing by allowing their employees to move out. And the truth of the matter is, most of them won't move out. All this hand-wringing and doomsday scenarios are either the pathetic reaction of a power-hungry administration who's throwing a tantrum like a 2-year-old because some of their perceived 'power' has been taken from them, or it's the paranoid rantings of a delusional person. I'm not sure which.

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24hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

NoBS,
I am relieved to hear you may not be a city employee.
I think it is quite obvious that I never thought for one moment that callers for police were being intentionally ignored. (Thus my failure to catch your sarcasm.)
I can't post anywhere because I find myself saying the same thing. No one has denied "rights" or "freedom" to civil servants. They could choose a new job, and thus a new location at any time. It was always all about their choice.
No one is making them take the jobs, and in fact, there are always plenty of applicants. There are also plenty of jobs in other communities, and other occupations.

BlkPride, you lost me. I live here. You live here. How am I telling you to "shop" somewhere else? You mean I am like the Black businessman telling the Black man to go to a Black business if possible? Well, yeah. I am saying you should.

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25hellsbells(116 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Sorry. Line 4 should read I can't post anymore on this subject.

I have nothing left to say. YSUgrad99 is right. I would live in the city, and I do. I am proud of it and its history. I don't think these employees with their lack of loyalty will ever see eye to eye with the taxpayers who provide them with their living wage by working, as NoBS has said, often at much lower salaries and compensation than city workers.

I guess that is what results in the contempt. The workers wonder, "who would do that?"

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26planforthebest(53 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Often city wages are so low employees can't afford to live in decent neighborhoods in the city they serve. It's not their fault, the wages and policies are set by administrators and board members, many of whom do NOT live within city limits because they received exemptions when they were hired. If it's ok for higher-ups to get exemptions, why should the people who do the actual work be punished? If you had to live on $6 to $12 an hour, where would you live? That's the wage of more than half of the municipal workers in Ohio. If you could get a decent house in a safe neighborhood in the township for $70,000, would you really pay $125,000 to live in a similar house in a similar neighborhood within the city limits? And if your spouse owned a house in Canfield, would you really sell it and move to an innercity neighborhood in Youngstown? I doubt it.

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27Silence_Dogood(1501 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

justin 2204
"Silence Do Good, maybe you should have stayed true to your name. The schools are "turning out Thugs and Idiots"? Ouch. I'm neither. And if some students are, who turned them out? I'd say their families turned them out for the schools to deal with."
You are right , it is the parents that are creating these thugs and idiots.

"If the schools create thugs and idiots, then the police must create crime and the fire department must create arson."
A carefull readind of MY words will show that I never said the Schools created these thugs and idiots.You need to be a little more carefull in your readings
And thank you for the correct spelling on red herring I still have not figured out how to correct my errors once it has been submitted.

"Silence Do Good, maybe you should have stayed true to your name"
This confirms my fears of the Youngstown school system,you have NO CLUE as to the meaning of this name do you.It is something that should have been taught in your American history class.It is a pseudonym used by a man over two hundred years ago so he could remain anonymous but still have his voice heard.I would hope you would look it up and learn a little history .
"If I can think of these in 8th grade, wouldn't you think an adult could too"
It is a sad reality but you might want to learn it now,some parents dont give a darn about thier kids education.This is clearly not the case with you ,you should be thankful for that.

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28copswife(25 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

My husband is a police officer in this city. He is relieved that he finally gets a choice where he can live. We live in a great quiet neighborhood in the city. I love my house and my neighbors. We have alot of other police offivers and attorneys that also live on our street. Unfortunatly our neighborhood lately has been the target of many break ins. My husband loves his job. If we did decide to move it would not mean he would stop loving his work or change the way he protects the city.Our kids have been stuck in the youngstown city school system and that would be one of the reasons we did move. Both of my kids are straight a students, but the enviorment of their school is not the safest any more. So my point is if we do decide to move it would be what is in the best interest of our childrens education. If they now have a choice were they can got to school our city workers should also have a choice where they live. Alot of our teachers do not live in this city. Our principles defitnely do not, so why should they teach in our city schools? Because they are good teachers and love their jobs. As do our city workers but that does not mean they should be forced to live in the city. Every one in entitled to their own opinion, but you have to live in these peoples shoes to really know what your talking about.

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29Education_Voter(893 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

You seem like a nice person who may be one of my neighbors, so I'll say this as gently as I can.

Teachers and safety forces are not exactly the same. Your husband has requirements other than residency, doesn't he? In order to keep his job, I imagine he must wear a uniform. He probably must carry a weapon. He probably must follow orders of superiors.

I see residency as similar to these, just something that goes with the job. If he looked his employer in the face and promised to live in the city after he was hired, then it is a matter of honor.

You would not like me to say I was "stuck with the city police force", yet look at what you say about my colleagues. School choice is not a proof that you should be able to choose residency. Many of my friends lost their jobs because mothers like you insisted they needed school choice to stay in the city. When students go elsewhere, teachers lose jobs. Are you saying their job loss was for nothing?

There is a requirement for school employees to live in the city. The teachers are an exception because they can be hard to recruit, and because diverse ideas can be desirable in instruction. Still, it would be better for more teachers to live here, and they are encouraged to do so.

There is no getting around this decision as sad for city residents. Surely you understand that. I think you should feel honored to be so valued as a member of your community. When you feel that police officers are not respected, remember that your neighbors valued your presence on the block.

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30NoBS(2234 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

hellsbells, you keep using the term "contempt" - I wish you'd come up with an example, instead of just making a vague allegation.

And please show where I said any part of this: "I don't think these employees with their lack of loyalty will ever see eye to eye with the taxpayers who provide them with their living wage by working, as NoBS has said, often at much lower salaries and compensation than city workers."

I'm sure you'll find a way to not understand the point I'm making, but I'll say it anyway. You claim to be a citizen of Youngstown. Fine. How would you feel if your neighborhood deteriorated over the course of 10 or even 20 years? You find yourself living in the next Kimmelbrooks or Victory Annex. Would you move? What if the mayor told you you can't move - we need people in your income bracket there to help balance the demographics? Now don't run off on the tangent I know you want to - just answer the question.

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31copswife(25 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Education- Voter, I in no way think i attacked the teachers in the Youngstown city schools. Like i mentioned, my kids have been taught very well most of the teachers they have had do not live in the city of Youngstown. I was pointing out that even if many of our police officers move that does not mean they would not take pride in their work and do any different of a job that they are doing right now. I do not feel any one should be told where to live. I live in a nice neighborhood and i will probably stay where i am, if we did move it would only be because i do not care for the enviorment my kids are in

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32Education_Voter(893 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Is this information from Bertram DeSouza's Sunday article true?

The median household income for city workers is $63,000.

Because I know his next statement to be true:
the median household income for Youngstown residents as a whole is $28,700.

Did you know a teacher must get a Masters Degree now to renew his/her license?
To make $64,000, the teacher would have to be at the top step in the salary schedule AND have a PhD.

To LOL,
Teachers wear whatever they want to wear. Many teachers wear what I would describe as "business casual" in Youngstown, out of respect for the students, who are REQUIRED to dress that way. But teachers are not required to.

Teachers have a different masters degree and license than principals. That masters degree is not subordinate to an administrative license, just different. A school is a collaborative environment. I feel sorry for the principal who tries to give orders.

To get a teaching contract in Ohio, you must have a particular license, which as I said must be renewed with a masters degree. We try to recruit certain categories of licensed teachers because they are hard to come by, at least for the wage we offer. Teachers of certain foreign languages, African American teachers, teachers in some science fields, etc., can work in districts that pay much more. So yeah, they can commute here if needed. Districts can't operate a school acceptable under law without them.

By contrast, when the city is hiring police or firefighters, they turn away many qualified applicants. I know a good employee has traits that are prized, but if we let the employees go, we could fill the jobs.

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33Education_Voter(893 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Sorry, I forgot something important. Teachers are not employed by the City of Youngstown or any other township government. (It's easy to misunderstand this, because of the name Youngstown City Schools, I know.)

Education is administered by the state through school districts. In fact, more than 70% of districts have open enrollment to other townships, including YCS.

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34Education_Voter(893 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Ditto for city teachers, okay?

I know that you all feel strongly about this. One problem is that the majority of the city residents oppose it. You end up with two camps. Don't think that teachers haven't heard the same thing -- especially when unlicensed employees at the same workplace must live in the city. (You guys are harsh in comments against the mayor, but he does what he does regarding residency because the voters WANT him to.)

In both cases, you can be more effective when you have the support of the citizens. So, while I understand you are tired just from the basic requirements of your jobs, it helps when you try to become visible as advocates of city issues. (I say the same to teachers.) The baseball league started by the police was a great idea that softened the peoples attitudes.

I also tell the teachers not to appear to whine about their compensation in public. Although they are doing more for less $ compared to the suburbs, residents who have it even worse do not understand that comparison.

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35Education_Voter(893 comments)posted 6 years, 1 month ago

Hoo Boy! See LOL? Who endures more negatives -- teachers or safety workers?

What's more, the safety workers criticize the schools at length in these blogs (yeah-yeah, you don't mean the teachers, just the schools...what does THAT mean?)

But teachers present the positive side of the safety workers to 7,000 + students every year.

Here's my take, recognizing that its probably and outdated attitude: I want to work where it makes a difference. I never even applied to affluent districts. A person goes to a job for the salary, yes. But since you are going to spend a good percentage of your limited time on earth at your job, why not choose one where it matters whether you were there?

Some teachers do envy those jobs where you show up, and whatever you do, your kids are going to advance. (Professional parents will make sure their offspring do, if the kids' own intrinsic motivation to get a good job, and belief that learning is fun don't.) And on top of the glide path you are in...you get paid more!

But I want the struggle. Like officers who know they make a difference.

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