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Churches debate policy on gays

Published: Mon, June 16, 2008 @ 12:14 a.m.

By Linda M. Linonis

Denominations hold various views on the gay issue.

Not all area churches share the opinion of First Unitarian Universalist Church of Youngstown when it comes to religion and gay, bisexual and transgender people.

First Unitarian announced last week that it had voted to be a “welcoming congregation.” As such, it accepts people of all sexual orientations as members. The church also performs same-sex unions.

Terry Cripe, president of the Ohio District, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, which includes churches in the Mahoning Valley, said, “We do not share the Unitarian Universalist position. Our understanding, according to Scripture, is that homosexuality is a sin.”

But, he said, the Lutheran church does not place homosexuality “above any other sin” and it is viewed as “any other type of sinful behavior.”

“We don’t believe that the behavior is God-pleasing,” he said. “But we do see it as a sin. People in that situation, like other sinners, are living broken lives,” Cripe said.

Addressing the problem through Bible study and other ministry, he said, people are expected to work to overcome the sin.

Melinda Knight, director of the Office of Pro-Life, Marriage and Family in the Catholic Diocese of Youngstown, said, “We are called to live chaste lives,” and noted that the church disapproves of all sexual activity outside of marriage, and recognizes marriage only between a man and a woman.

Dan Thimons, assistant director in the same office, said, “The church never judges people, but the action.” The action is considered disordered according to natural law, he said, referring to same-sex relationships.

The Rev. Jim Dunfee is chaplain of the Courage chapter in Steubenville. Courage is a ministry of the Roman Catholic Church and serves as an outreach to those with same-sex attractions. (See the Web site www.couragerc.net.) The Youngstown diocese doesn’t yet have a Courage chapter.

Father Dunfee said the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith document, released by the Vatican, provides detailed information on the church’s position. The document sites Scripture passages including Romans 1:24-27 and 1 Corinthians 6-10 that condemn homosexual acts “as a serious depravity.” The document also states, “according to the teaching of the church, men and women with homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

Gay, bisexual and transgender lifestyles are “not looked upon favorably” said Saeeda Yasmin Ghani, president of the Islamic Society of Greater Youngstown, the governing body at Masjid Al-Khair mosque in Youngstown. She said those choices are “forbidden in our religion.” She said Muslims at the local mosque haven’t dealt with issues pertaining to those lifestyle choices.

Martha Wright, communications officer of the Episcopal Diocese of Ohio, said, “Everyone is welcome at our church, regardless of sexual orientation. We believe everyone is a child of God. And love is a gift from God.

“We believe in committed relationships. We’re not making a distinction,” she said, of whether the couple is male-female or same sex.

Wright pointed out that Bishop Gene Robinson in New Hampshire is a homosexual man and an Episcopal minister. She said he and his partner had a civil union ceremony. The church, she said, does not have a ceremony for same-sex couples but will offer a blessing.

Bishop John Hopkins of the East Ohio Conference of the United Methodist Church referred to Article 4 in the Methodist constitution. He said the article notes that all persons no matter what their race, color, national origin, status or economic condition are eligible to attend worship services and to receive the sacraments.

The UMC conference, which sets the standards, Bishop Hopkins said, has not approved the ordination of partnered gays and lesbians. “It’s debated every time we meet,” he said. Also, same-sex couples cannot be married in the church; some churches may offer an off-site blessing.

Bishop Hopkins, who served for a time in Minneapolis, said that there are differences in urban and rural areas. “It depends on the local setting,” he said. In a larger context, he said, some people see same-sex relationships as a sin and others see it as inborn. “I think that reflects American views,” he said.

The Web site, www.sbc.net, of the state Convention of Baptists in Ohio, posts this position statement: “We affirm God’s plan for marriage and sexual intimacy — one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a ‘valid alternative lifestyle.’ The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.”

The Presbyterian Church USA’s Web site, www.pcusa.org/101, provided this information from a General Assembly in 1978: “Homosexual persons are encompassed by the searching love of Christ. The church must turn from its fear and hatred to move toward the homosexual community in love and to welcome homosexual inquirers to its congregations. ....”

Information on the Web site also states that gay people cannot be ordained and same-sex union ceremonies are not permitted.


1robroy(3 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

I am, unfortunately, an Episcopalian. I do feel that I was born and raised in this denomination for a reason. And for a while at least, I carry on the fight from within.

What the homosexualists have done is to run an aggressive campaign to place their own in every position of authority in the national church. The strategy has been simply to make sure there was only one liberal candidate while the orthodox vote was split among many conservative candidates. The result has been the advancement of the homosexual cause with the Gospel suffering. The denomination was increasing up to 2003. Last year, it was the fastest declining. This year promises to be much worse. Other denominations should look on us and avoid allowing what has been done to ours.

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2jrowan53(5 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

It constantly amazes me that Churchs that claim to be followers of Jesus Christ can spout such hate and judgement. The bible says "Love one another as I have loved you." I don't know about you but these church's treatment of this minor sin in comparison to murder, rape, and sex abuse, none of which are excluded from God's loving forgiveness or exclusion from church's membership, makes no sense. The other verse that comes to mind is "Judge not lest ye be judged". Obviously these churches pick and choose what beliefs of Jesus they decide to follow. Is it any wonder their pews are becoming increasingly empty. This does not bode well for these so called Christian churches.

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3Mexjewel(1 comment)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Intrinsically Christians want to avoid sin that offends God. We do not unilaterally harm God but we do wreck our love relationship with Him by sinning. Created in His loving image, we fail to live up to expectations. But Jesus came with a deal to renew our relationship with God, to make it right. Take Jesus as Savior and Lord and He will keep you in His Father's loving will. As Lord, He bases and defines ALL sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Such obvious sins as theft, murder and adultery are unloving because each has a victim, someone not receiving love. Please tell me, who is the unloved victim in a homosexual relationship? Neither is a victim, neither is unloved. Where is the hurt? Who could bring suit against the “sinner”? What Gospel writer or Bible prophet claimed homosexuality is sinful? (Jesus didn't.) These are not rhetorical questions; they are unanswered by those who refuse God's grace and live by working the law. How would you like to be the first to answer any one of them? It is noteworthy that Gay people employ themselves in loving professions like medicine, education and the ministry while those who call themselves Christians work in the Biblical judicial system. Certainly if God didn't want men to have sex with other men, He would have said “Man shall not lie with man PERIOD (Leviticus 18:22, 21:13). God wanted Moses to address the rampant idolatry in the Jewish nation. That whole “ . . . as with a woman” thing condemns straight men pretending to make it with a woman, such as during idol worship. Paul explains it further when putting down the straight Romans (1:26-28 ) and Corinthians (1 Co 6:9-11) for “leaving their natural relations” (i.e.... as with a woman) and having idolatrous sex with men. Gay men can only imagine what sex “ . . . as with a woman” would be. We are attracted to other men by definition and by God. “Homosexual” was coined about 1865, so any subsequent Bible translation using that word is a lie that needs to be emended. It premiered in a1946 English Bible and has been condemning loving Gays ever since. What is the most love one can show another sinner? Offer them an eternity with God through the redemptive cross of Jesus. When was the last time you told a homosexual that Jesus died for their sins? A problem is that Gays do not want to affiliate with unloving and judgmental Christians (Ps 69:6-7). Know Jesus, know love. No Jesus, no love.

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4Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

I felt the need to add my opinion on this subject. Since churches have existed, there have been offshoots. For instance, Marin Luther left the Catholic Church and started the Lutheran Church. In as much as gays are not always welcomed to most churches - what is keeping them from starting their own church. I thought this is a simple remedy to their problem. That way, no one is offended on either side. Way to simple!!!!!

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5Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

...the same reason we won't sail off to our own little island somewhere. There is a perfectly good place to live right here.

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6Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Ah, here we have a fine example of why so many people who know the gay movement detest them so much. They refuse to build anything for themselves, they insist on taking it away from others.

When was the last time you heard of a gay organization donating money given by members for tsunami relief? How about any mainline church?

When was the last time you heard of a gay organization donating money given by members for projects not benefiting gays? How about any mainline church?

The list goes on and on. They do not want to build something for themselves from their own pooled funds, they want to it with someone else’s money. If you want to see how corrupt gay organizations are, look at the way funds disappeared from the many “Aids Walk” programs around the county.

True practicing homosexuals are unable to reproduce, so they must predate on the most vulnerable young in our society to recruit the next generation. Anyone who does not believe that children and teenagers are easily influenced by adults who want to “protect” their rights to “be themselves” has never raised a child. Why do you think gangs thrive in single or absent parent settings?

Until 1974 homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the American Psychiatric Association. With the full knowledge of how Aids is spread, American gays are participating in unsafe sex at a greater rate than 10 years ago. Couldn’t that be considered a sign of mental illness?

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7lucy(135 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Bull, I've copied and pasted from another thread Robert Joki's (he's a drag artist) summary of his work for charity:

"Just for the record...I've raised tens of thousands of dollars for local charities "playing dress up." I have performed IN DRAG at benefits for Angels for Animals, Toys for Tots, Violet's Cupboard, The Oakland Center for The Arts, PFLAG, The Mahoning Valley Rescue Mission, The Salvation Army, MDA, and even the Ursuline Motherhouse. There is no shame in what I do."

I believe that Ursuline Mother House is part of the local Catholic, i.e. mainline, church. In what way does Angels for Animals directly benefit gays? Gay puppies? Gay kittens? Would the Marines/Toys for Tots, consider themselves a gay organization? How about MDA? The Rescue Mission?

These are one person's contributions on a local level. I'm sure a little research would reveal even more philanthropy on national and global levels...even tsunami relief.

My church, the Unitarian church, has long had GLBTQ members. No one took our church from us. There is no us and them in a true community of people.

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8Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Where did I refer to individuals? I thought I posted regarding organizations.

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9Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Bull Chip, great post. They certainly have a mental disorder. It gets my goat that they really think that they will be accepted by all for whatever they choose to do. Sorry, I will never accept such a perverted lifestyle as the LBGT's. They don't have to have AIDS. They choose to have sex in disgusting ways that passes on the disease. I can't feel sorry for people that choose to do that.

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10wilderace(2 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Hey Rocco, I think I know you. Did you go to Boardman High?
Lighten up a bit. These folks may be helping the global warming problem by decreasing the overall population of the globe and by dying young.

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11Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Wilerace: I would prefer to not say where I went to school. I just had a chance to go to this churches website. To me it looks more like they are SOCIAL ACTIVISTS than a church. Good grief, go check it out yourself. They give sermons saying how bad Republicans are for trying to defeat the amnesty bill. They are hand in hand with the ACLU, etc, etc. How can they get a tax exemption for being a church. Beats me!!!!

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12Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

"Blah blah blah, hate hate hate, it's my world and no one else's." You might as well go slap each other's backs and go have a brewsky together, haters.

And by the way, churches are and have always been social activist groups. I went and checked out the UU page and it seems to me they simply back different causes than the neocon Xtians.

I don't spell it "Christians" because that would be taking His name in vain when applying it to people who use his name to condone hate and meanness rather than love and kindness, which is the Word.

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13Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Will you stop with the boring overused "hate" stuff. No one said anything about "hate" except you!!!!! All I'm doing is stating facts. No hate involved, unless you are feeling guilty or something.

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14Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

and one more thing, i have never been a member of a church that was a social activist group - ever, nor where any of my friends or relatives, so that's sure news to me.

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15Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Churches advocate for various things. That's activism.

You don't use the word hate, certainly. But your words are full of it.

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16Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

"Until 1974 homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the American Psychiatric Association."

I couldn't have said it better myself. The key word is "until." In other words the American Psychiatric Association realized that homosexuality was NOT a mental disorder.

Bull chip, using your logic, one might as well say that it is ok to burn witches...because people thought it was fine to do so in Massachusetts until 1693.

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17Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Rocco, wilderace, bullchip...you all should seriously do some research before you go spouting off about things you clearly know nothing about.

This is how your posts come across: "I hate gay people because what they do is icky, and I heard this...blah blah blah! "

You sound like a bunch of catty teenage girls...sitting in the lunch room and making fun of people for not making the cheerleading squad.

You've suggested that AIDS is a gay disease...that gay people/organizations are corrupt...that gay people are out to take people's money and recruit young children...and that gay people are mentally ill. I would like to see the statistics and documented cases that support these "facts."

Seriously, educate me. Help me see the light. Post some unbiased studies that will help me understand your point of view.

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18Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Actually, the rising group of AIDS victims is young black, straight women. But this doesn't mean they should be ignored because they are victims to a disease. It means we should try to help them.

Of course, if you take Bullchip's, Rocco's and Wilderace's point of view, you should cheer death on, because it depopulates a world that is definitely overpopulated.

I think we need to depopulate, but not at the cost of people with diseases. There is no difference between a person dying of AIDs and a person dying of Cancer. It is a sad, horrible thing to witness anyone dying, no matter what the cause. To be joyous in watching others die from one particular cause, as Wilderace encourages, is to eat from the cup of death and sup from the plate of death, in the name of death, and to name that dinner after Christ is a sin.

I am ashamed of such bigots. Christ can't roll in his grave because he rose, but if he were still in his coffin, he would roll and roll at hearing and reading such horrible thoughts expressed in his name, or as if those thoughts were "normal". They are murderous and gleeful in the death of others. They are "sick", as those who said these things would like to say about gay people.

These people are the ones with the real "mental disorders". They just think they're "normal".

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19clayor(281 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

I have checked out that church. Does anyone know if the pastor is male or female?

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20clayor(281 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Hey Robert,,,,check out these rhinestones************ are you ready to party?

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21Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Sure doll, let me grab my dancin' shoes :O)

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22lucy(135 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

The UU church is between ministers right now. However, both the departing and incoming ministers are women. Does it matter?

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23lucy(135 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Rob, After reading these comments, I'm starting to favor the creation "gay island." Think of the parties! Is there room for the token straight girl? :)

Andy, Your Jesus is my Jesus. Great comments!

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24Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Some people have to really twist what is posted to make it appear “hate” is being spread.

Let’s see, the statement “. With the full knowledge of how Aids is spread, American gays are participating in unsafe sex at a greater rate than 10 years ago. Couldn’t that be considered a sign of mental illness?” has been construed to mean I celebrate gay deaths due to AIDS. That is a pretty twisted interpretation.

As for corruption in the gay community, as exemplified by the various AIDS walk scandals a few years ago, that was publicized (granted, never on the front page) in the mainstream media.

The 1974 decision to remove homosexuality form the list of mental disorders, that was a result of gay activist groups lobbying the organization and fear of the organization being singled out for harassment by gay activists.

The attacks on myself and others who do not support, condone, approve or accept homosexuality as anything approximating normality have been entirely hateful and personal. This tactic is frequently employed by those who want to be viewed as victims. Claim to be hated and abused for your views. Cry BIGOT!! loud and often. Lie about what has been said. Avoid, obfuscate, misdirect, label others as haters and plead innocence.

An example of obfuscation is the statement that the ‘the rising group of AIDS victims is young black, straight women”. If we examine the reality, this population has a very low occurrence of AIDS, so if the infected rate goes from 500 to 600, that is a 20% increase. If the gay male AIDS infected rate goes from 1 million to 1.1 million (increase by 100,000), that is only a 10% increase, even though we are talking about 1,000 times as many cases.

Join me in supporting organizations that do not accept gay participation. Yes, we have to fund them ourselves because we are being “discriminatory” and frequently are denied use of public facilities, but it is worth it. What kind of “HATE” groups am I speaking of? The Boy Scouts for one.

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25lucy(135 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Too much HATE for me. I'll leave these guys to you, Robert and Andy.

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26Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Lucy, thank you for proving my point.

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27Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Nope, you proved it all on your own, Bull.

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28Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

On the churches website are interesting item's. For instance check out the 2008 NYCFringe Festival where they work with the ACLU Ohio. Then, they are working on stopping executions at the local prison. Things like this are not normal activities for a "Church" in my opinion. It really is more like "Political Activism", not just "Social Activism". It is all there on the website. I'm not making any of this up. Everyone, go read it all. Check out the sermon's too. Sure are different than any church I've ever been to. I'm used to churches that preach God's word and never, ever would go to the politics of the day. Church should be a totally neutral place to be with God. But then, that's just my opinion. All I can say is go read it for yourselves.

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29Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Yeah, sound the alarm, Rocco. People who care about injustice in the world are takin' over!

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30Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Now you are really sounding stupid Andy. Name me just one "injustice" or "right" that you don't have that I have. We all have the same "rights", so don't start with that crap.

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31Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Just as you have a right to be homosex, i have a right homophob, so stop with the hate, that's all you guys can use. Like Bull said you use "hate" and being the "victim" so much it just doesn't work anymore.

Here is a quote from a sermon on your website.

"It means we can hang a rainbow flag outside the church if we want and let everyone know that there are churches that stand out against hate. It means if the press asks me, or anyone calls the church and asks, I can state unequivocally that we believe homophobia is the sin, not homosexuality."

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32Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

You seem to be yet another history-less person who thinks Christians are not social activists, while historically we can look and see that Christians have always been social activists. If not for the Christians supporting and enacting the Abolitionist movement, slavery would have continued for a longer period of time.

There are no such rights listed in the Constitution about rights to be homosexual or homophobic.

And why is it that people like you always assume that someone standing up for homosexuals *is* homosexual? You're wrong, in my case. But thanks for asking. Oh wait, that's right, you didn't ask. You assumed.

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33Andydoyouask(8 comments)posted 8 years, 1 month ago

Also I am not a member of that church, so don't assume that either.

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34krishc(3 comments)posted 8 years ago

I am a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church. I see that Rocco has been to our website, and he has been providing information from our recent newsletter.

To clarify, Our church isn't funding the Lucasville/Fringe project or any of the work with the prisons, but some of our members are involved in these projects (my husband is one of the Lucasville actors), and we encourage our members to tell us about their outside involvements. The ACLU is directly involved in the Fringe/Lucasville project.

The newsletter also includes announcements for Street Scape, the Alzheimer's Support Group, and Timebanks Mahoning Watershed. These involvements weren't mentioned.

And yes, the UU church is committed to advocacy for the LGBTQ community; Rocco quoted our minister exactly. We are not, however, a one issue church. Members of our church are involved with the Oakland Center for the Arts, Treez Please, Grow Youngstown, WYSU, the Northside Interfaith Partnership, the Northside Farmer's Market, and much more.

We take the term "social activists" as a compliment; we strive to be active in our community. I'm proud of my church and of my friends who commit their time and integrity everyday to the pursuit of social justice.

We encourage inquiry. Send the church an email through the website, and we'll make sure you receive monthly newsletters. Feel to attend the events and services listed on the website, uuyo.org.

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35Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

No thank you. I will certainly pass.

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36Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

You are way to radical for me.

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37wilderace(2 comments)posted 8 years ago

Okay, let's wrap this thing up. I'm getting a little tired of the whining about politics, activism, god etc. This is all about sex. Some want prefer sex one way and others another way. Those who of the "other way" persuasion feel guilty that the rest of us don't accept them as normal. And so to assuage that guilt they go on a quest to gain accepted.
This will not happen in your lifetime. Look at how long it has taken for blacks to gain total acceptance. Right, that hasn't happened yet. So your time is coming, but it's way the hell out there.
So sit back, relax and put on your seat belt on it's going to be a bumpy ride.

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38Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago

Interesting statistics bullchip...but if you want to be taken seriously by anyone with a decent education, you should probably provide your sources. You don't expect us to just take your word for it, do you?

After all...I could go out today and tell a hundred people that according to some study I read in a magazine, or heard about on TV, 9 out of 10 gay people now have AIDS. If even a portion of them were naive enough believe it, they would tell other people, who would then tell other people and so on and so forth. Pretty soon, thousands of gullible people would think that the vast majority of homosexuals have AIDS...even though I totally made it up. If a million people believe in a lie...it's still a lie.

So give us your sources. I would like to see studies, and statistics from reputable, unbiased sources. Give us web pages...give us court cases...give us legal documents...proving that the things you accuse the gay community of are true.

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39Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago

Wilderace...I think you are wrong. It will happen in my lifetime. It's happening now. Thousands of gay couples are being married in California as we speak. Other states will follow. Just wait until my generation takes over this country. It's inevitable.

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40George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

wildebeast, like the gay guys need you to tell them what to do. You and bullcrap with his made up numbers. What a couple of jokes.

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41Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago

Hey guys, if this message board interests you...check out my blog on valley24.com. This week's topic:

"What Would Jesus Do?: I doubt he'd call me a faggot."

Go to valley24.com and click on WORDS. Then click on BLOGS. The name of my blog is FAT CAMP. Leave me a comment and let me know what you think :O)

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42Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years ago

Not my primary source, but what the heck. avert.org/usastatr.htm .

Short version, snap shot numbers- through 2006 gay males with or without IV drug usage, about 225,000, black females through heterosexual contact, about 42,000. a 1% change in the gay male population’s rate is equivalent to about a 6% change in the black female rate. If you throw in female IV drug use, it bumps the female rate up significantly, but I believe the implied scare here is for heterosexual contact.

Overall, IV drug use as self-reported by it self represents the etiology for about 20% of the cases. Gay male interaction with or without IV drug use represents something north of 70%.

I repeat, does known at risk homosexual interaction which accounts for 70% of the cases imply that there is a mental illness involved?

This reporting is a little sloppy, but you asked for it.

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43George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

Hey bullcrap, no one cares! Mental disorder? Maybe the guy who has stupid comments on almost every story on this site is the guy with the mental disorder. What's the matter? Family won't listen to you anymore? You're just some old jerk sitting alone thanking God that you're white and straight and judging everyone else.

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44Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years ago

Insults, name calling and denigrating post are not helpful to an intellectually valid discourse. They seem to be more the realm of one who has realized they have no logical or legitimate arguments to proffer.

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45Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

I find it interesting that in reading some of these posts that some members of the gay community are very anxious for "the older generation" to die off so they can take over the world. Well, good luck on that sick thinking. For your information, it is highly LIKELY that California will nullify the 4 black robes that robbed the voters of CA their say in the past election. Gays have all the rights that others have, but CA voted to keep marriage between one man and one woman, as it should be. So don't' be holdin your breath on this one, the voters will have the last say.

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46George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

Bull, all of the big words don't make you sound any less ignorant than you are, as everything you've written has proven. You're having "intellectually valid discourse" what a laugh with your questionable statistics and your citation of psychological "facts" that are more than 30 years old. Being gay isn't a choice; being stupid is. Turn off Rush Limbaugh and try to actually learn something truthful and accurate.

Rocco, we all know that the gay marriage votes are the result of fear-mongering and manipulation. There's nothing democratic or honorable about that.

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47Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

George, talk about sounding ignorant. You need to get your facts straight. The people of Californication voted unanimously that marriage should be between one man and one woman. 4 judges decided to overturn the will of the people. In November, the people will vote again and this time the judges will be helpless to change the will of the people. All those marriages will be null and void!!! I would say that is as "democratic" as you get. You are certainly making yourself out to be embarrassingly stupid!!!!!

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48George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

Every single person in the entire state voted the exact same way? Really? You might want to recheck that. And again, the vote was swayed by trumped up AIDS stats and misinformation, like the kind you and bull are giving here. My question is, why do you and bull and wilde care so much what others are doing in their bedrooms or in their churches? Why do you care who they marry? What difference could it possibly make in your lives? You seem to spend an awful lot of time worrying about gay sex. It would be interesting to guess why--misdirection? denial? projection? How comfy is your closet?

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49Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

Your comments speak for themselves as to why we feel the way we do. - oh, and yes, the MAJORITY of the people in CA voted to keep the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman. You continue to make a fool of yourself. What in the world are you talking about - "the vote was swayed by trumped up AIDS stats and misinformation" - surely you jest. The gay community lost my tolerance when they started shoving it down our throats. Flaunting your Homo, Bi, Gay, Trans to most of us is disgusting. There's no fairies in my closet, trust me.

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50Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years ago

In response to “why do you --- care so much what others are doing in their bedrooms or in their churches”

As previously stated:
--True practicing homosexuals are unable to reproduce, so they must predate on the most vulnerable young in our society to recruit the next generation. Anyone who does not believe that children and teenagers are easily influenced by adults who want to “protect” their rights to “be themselves” has never raised a child. Why do you think gangs thrive in single or absent parent settings?--

As liberals are want to say – it is for the children! Legitimizing and condoning deviant and self-destructive behavior is not healthy for a society as a whole or its’ children in particular. We do not encourage smoking, drinking, Heroin use or other actions that will put children at risk why would we? Yes, today we have better treatment for AIDS then when I first encountered it in the 1980’s, but so what? As previously discussed, over 70% of all AIDS cases are a result of unsafe male homosexual activity, and the rate of that activity is on the increase. Aids and the other STDs associated with this activity may be more treatable now then ever before, but have you ever seen the ravages of these diseases? Should we use the same justification to promote illicit IV drug usage?

What do you want held up as ideals for your children and future generations?

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51Rocco(99 comments)posted 8 years ago

Amen Bull Chip

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52George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

So the California voters did NOT vote unanimously. It's common knowledge that Carl Rove and co. preyed on the evangelicals' fears and prejudices to influence the outcome of those anti-marriage votes. It's all part of the conservative agenda of hate and bigotry against women (anti-choice), gays (anti-everything), and anyone non-white.

I'm not homosexual, but I know that you guys assume that everyone who sticks up for the gay people is. I have two children who have number of gay people in their lives. These are smart, hardworking, intelligent, well-read, and funny people--great influences. And I have news for you, my straight friends have said and done more vulgar things around my kids than any of my gay friends have. Keep your AIDS rant; there's so much more info to your stats, but I'm not going to cast my pearls before the swine, as the scripture says.

You guys always say "it's for the children." Really, it's about your own discomfort. You're afraid of gay people. Why you are is your own burden to bear. That yoke of hatred is a heavy burden, my brothers. I'll pray for you. Peace out.

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53Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago

Bullchip, buddy, I checked out the link. Like you, they have a difficult time listing their sources. There is also a lot of speculation. You keep saying, "over 70% of all AIDS cases are a result of unsafe male homosexual activity" I found no information supporting that claim on the web page you sent me. The closest was this:

"Male-to-male sexual contact probably caused the majority (66%) of infections in white people living with AIDS. "

Even this claim I have a difficult time taking seriously. It says "probably." It does not say why, or where, or according to whom. It doesn't give a source...which suggests that it was slipped in by a clearly biased author. It also limits the information to white people.

I invite anyone who has been keeping up with these message boards to type the phrase "over 70% of all AIDS cases are a result of unsafe male homosexual activity" into a web browser. See what pops up...or more importantly, what does not.

Bullchip and Rocco and people like them are proving my point better than I ever could. The real enemy is ignorance.

For anyone whose mind has not yet been permanently poisoned by hate, let me say this: Educate yourself. Don't believe something just because someone keeps repeating it over and over and over. If you want to know what the real statistics are, look them up. If you want to know what the Bible says, read it. Most importantly, make sure what you are reading isn't propaganda.

Last but not least, if you want to know the truth about homosexuality...invite some gay people into your life. Don't listen to what others say gay people do...or what others say gay people want. Find out for yourself.

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54Bull_Chip(170 comments)posted 8 years ago

RJ, apparently you did not look at all of the charts or you are denying reality or you can not comprehend the information as it is presented there. I said nothing about segregating the statistics for whites, only for black women.

Obfuscate, deny, misdirect, lie and plead the victim.

You also post “are proving my point better than I ever could. The real enemy is ignorance”. Name calling and denigrating, more tactics of those who have no valid arguments.

You have posted NO factual counters to the truth which is inconvenient to your cause. For those who can evaluate a discourse based on the presentation of evidence, you have lost.

I know you will continue denigrating any who dare disagree with you rather than debating them, so I say good bye. I am not giving up, I have won the argument and see no reason to continue posting here.

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55Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago

Bullchip...you are the one who keeps tossing around bogus statistics. You introduced them. I asked you to prove them. You could not.

As I said in my last post. Anyone who is interested, test the validity of Bullchips caims. Type the phrase, "over 70% of all AIDS cases are a result of unsafe male homosexual activity" into any web browser...and you will find out who really won this argument.

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56George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

Robert, just did. Nothing. It's not there. I also looked at the link Bull provided, and I couldn't find the 70% figure. Even going by the pie charts, as Bull suggests, the numbers don't match.

What's interesting, though, is that the pie chart for women shows that 65% of women living with AIDS were likely infected during HETEROSEXUAL contact. So much for the "God hates gays and is using AIDs to destroy them argument." Clearly, it's safer for women to be homosexual than heterosexual.

But we all know Bull will come back with more bull, likely parroted, as was his previous "research" from some conservative talking head. I said it before, guys like Bull are afraid of gay men. Their hatred is truly their burden.

What would Jesus say? "Love one another as I have loved you, and they will know you follow me," and then he'd have a frappuccino and split a scone ;)

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57Dennick(160 comments)posted 8 years ago


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58clayor(281 comments)posted 8 years ago

That's what they do best, Tomcat, always out to flaunt it in other's faces rather than just living a quiet exitence and do whatever they do with each other in the privacy of their own space like straight people do.

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59KidsOnFire(8 comments)posted 8 years ago

Rocco wrote:
"Bull Chip, great post. They certainly have a mental disorder. It gets my goat that they really think that they will be accepted by all for whatever they choose to do. Sorry, I will never accept such a perverted lifestyle as the LBGT's. They don't have to have AIDS. They choose to have sex in disgusting ways that passes on the disease. I can't feel sorry for people that choose to do that."

Rocco,...You better start telling many more of your straight: friends, relatives, and neighbors ... that they "choose to have sex in disgusting ways" ....because many more of them are enjoying that type of sex...than the few gay people you are choosing to loathe.

Using your convoluted self-righteousness, fear and loathing.... you better start hammering straight persons, especially the "married ones" ...because a whole lot more them are having back-door sex.

New York Magazine shares some data from the Centers for Disease Control's National Survey of Family Growth and the bottom line is that heterosexuals are enjoying more back-door action than ever before.

The survey, released last year, showed that 38.2 percent of men between 20 and 39 and 32.6 percent of women ages 18 to 44 engage in heterosexual anal sex.

Compare that with the CDC's 1992 National Health and Social Life survey, which found that only 25.6 percent of men 18 to 59 and 20.4 percent of women 18 to 59 indulged in ....as you say .."disgusting sex."

The idea that anal is something couples eventually turn to for sexual variety seems to be supported by the CDC survey, which shows the lowest numbers among those who've never been married and are not cohabiting, compared with those who are cohabiting, married, or divorced.

What was that?

It's the married couples -- and you know some in that crowd are the ones who are protecting the sanctity of marriage from the strawman deviant homos.

Oh, by the way, most guys, no surprise, are still afraid of their woman doing the deed to them.

Those that choose to practice the homoloathing lifestyle feel both scared ...but titillated ...but at the same time feeling tingly and filthy. They project their fears and fantasies.

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60clayor(281 comments)posted 8 years ago

Wow! Tomcat gets booted, but descriptive acts are ok! Hmmmm what's wrong with this picture? Or is it the "protected" Unitarians who are posting?

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61George412(161 comments)posted 8 years ago

Isn't it interesting that claylor always posts right after Tomcat and always defends Tomcat? I didn't see the comment before it was pulled, but I'm guessing it was pretty bad if the Vindy staff chose to take it down.

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