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Published:Sunday, August 24, 2008
It’s all one county
EDITOR:
The Aug. 10 letter to the editor concerning the WRTA bus levy by Mayor John W. Smith of Sebring (population 4,912 as of the 2000 census) was just terrible. Shame on him.
Is he going to take me to see my dying father? (Because he helped take away that bus.) He can’t even begin to realize the hardship put on the families of this county who desperately needed those buses that have been cut. Why doesn’t he come, “sit on the other side” and see for himself? He’s hurting people all over this county by taking away safe commutes to a job or store or doctor or family for those who really need it. What kind of public servant does such a thing?
He says in his letter that this is an unfair tax to the county residents. The rest of this county pays to fix his roads and bridges that we never see and never ride on. Millions of dollars of road repair and sanitation work through the years for what, under 5,000 people? (That seems kind of unfair for the whole county to shoulder.) How about the rest of the county deciding that Sebring is not worth the money spent out there for so few people, and the majority of this county never uses that town, so it should be dissolved to save money? We have more riders per day on WRTA than he has citizens in Sebring
Is Mr. Sebring Mayor trying to single-handedly defeat this whole county’s efforts at revitalization?? Before locating in any area industry looks at the mass transit system. By asking his county to defeat the buses, he is asking them to defeat outside industry ever locating here. They can go 50 miles several ways to other counties with transportation in place that can provide them a better start-up for their business than we can. That’s called, “an incentive.” This county is dying and he is handing out coffin nails.
Every tax that is passed in this county whether it is for the bus, or to run the county government, or to pave a road in Sebring, etc., is to help this country as a whole. We are all monetarily dependent on each other for county taxes. We all give into the county tax jar from paychecks to purchases and the county uses it as needed in each community. Not all of us have the luxury of driving or living in Sebring.
LISA BETH MOORE
Youngstown
Sick days won’t kill Ohio
EDITOR:
Give me a break. The Vindicator’s claim that paid sick days would “cripple Ohio’s ability to compete for jobs” (”Sick leave law would kill Ohio” Aug. 10) flies in the face of the facts, and is more than a little self-serving. Every other industrialized country in the world, except this one, has mandated paid sick days. That includes every democracy, the 20 most economically competitive nations, and even countries like China. If everybody else can mandate this fair and basic standard for their workers and not hurt their competitiveness, why can’t we?
In Ohio 2.2 million people do not have paid sick days, and another million can’t use one to care for a sick child. Every day in every part of the state workers are forced to choose between their paychecks and taking care of themselves or their families. Thanks to federal and state leadership, America, Ohio and this Valley have lost thousands of jobs, and we’ve managed to do it without paid sick days.
I guess paid sick days are OK for politicians and corporate big shots, just not for regular people.
Clearly, it’s not paid sick days that make us unable to compete, it’s unfair trade laws. It’s time to try something that will benefit us all.
MIKE SULLIVAN
Lordstown
Times change, Mr. Mayor
EDITOR:
Keep it up, Mayor Williams, and the whole Liberty-Youngstown area will look like a scene out of a Cormac McCarthy novel — a barren wasteland. But the important thing is that through it all, you will have complied with a 20-year old agreement insisting that Wal-Mart hire 25 percent of its employees from the city of Youngstown. (Never mind that the city has lost almost 15,000 in population in 20 years). But wait, there is no Wal-Mart. There are no jobs. Only blight. But you stuck by your guns. It was the others — Wal-Mart and Liberty Township officials — they were the “incompetent” ones. (And hey, by the way, nice way of winning friends and influencing people by calling them “incompetent”).
The bottom line: Liberty Township is a gateway to Youngstown. Belmont Avenue is probably the most important corridor into the city. People exiting Interstate 80 at Belmont Avenue form an opinion of Youngstown as they look for a place to eat or get gas, or maybe to locate a business or company. What’s good for Liberty is good for Youngstown.
Mayor Williams, fix this situation. Be a visionary not an obstructionist. This is not 1988. We live in different times. Everyone knows that Liberty is not the vibrant business community it once was. Without Wal-Mart Liberty remains the place to come to get a pay-day loan or to rent-to-own a TV. We can be better than that. Believe in your community, Mayor Williams. Be a part of the solution.
TOM ARENS
Liberty
Why court Wal-Mart, GM?
EDITOR:
Recently there has been a lot of talk in the local news about how the citizens and politicians in our Valley must kiss up to GM and Wal-Mart to provide jobs here. GM management held a big rally out at Lordstown about how there will be a major expansion there and we should be so grateful about the bread crumbs they are giving us of the table. First Lordstown once employed about 15,000 people. Now the number is about 5,000, with many of the recent jobs going to employees from other GM plants that are either closing or cutting back. How does this really benefit our local citizens as far as hiring? Also any new people who are hired at Lordstown locally might just be temporary positions out there and they will only be making about half the pay that other GM employees with more seniority are currently making.
Granted I don’t want to see GM close down because they are the largest employer in this area. But this area needs to diversify more. We made the same mistakes with the steel mills and now we are making the same mistakes with GM.
Wal-Mart is another company that everybody praises all the time. They want to open a new store in Liberty. We already have several Wal-Mart locations in the Youngstown-Warren area. Why do we need more? Why give a tax break to a company that is worth billions and one of the largest multinational corporations in the whole world? Many of their jobs, especially on the retail level, are very low paying and many Wal-Mart employees have to pay for their own health insurance. Many prices at Wal-Mart are now lower than other retail store chains.
Wake up, Mahoning Valley. Stop taking the crumbs off the table.
GARY GERGEL
Youngstown
Obama’s plan for taxes and health care won’t work
EDITOR:
Senator Barack Obama is promising the American people two mutually exclusive policies if he is elected president. Those two strategies are a tax reduction for the middle class and the institution of a national healthcare system (aka socialized medicine) that guarantees free healthcare to every citizen and illegal alien within our borders.
The second ultimately eliminates the first. While he may be able to afford to reduce the taxes of the middle class initially, the General Accounting Office will not be able to sustain such tax cuts for very long. Here is the reason why. When the Medicare program was inaugurated in 1965, the bureaucrats in the federal government optimistically projected that Part A — the segment of Medicare that pays for hospitalization — would cost $9 billion by the year 1990. The program’s actual cost that year was $66 billion. After accounting for inflation, the cost of Medicare was in reality 165 percent higher than the government had predicted. In 2007 the cost of Medicare reached 3.2 percent of the Gross Domestic Product (the 2007 GDP was $13.84 trillion), or $443 billion. In 2007, 44 million U.S. citizens were covered under Medicare. That represents 14.4 percent of the 305 million people now residing in the US. At $90 per month, the senior citizen’s premium for Medicare in 2008, we pay $1,080 a year to supplement $47.5 billion of the total cost. If it took $443 billion to satisfy the medical needs of 14.4 percent of our citizens in 2007 how much do you suppose will it take to meet the needs of the other 85.6 percent? I did the math and it amounts to $2.66 trillion. The excess will of necessity have to come from the largest block of U.S. citizens, middle America.
For a reasonable perspective on what we can expect in taxation under a national healthcare systems as proposed by Sen. Obama, we need look only look 150 miles north. Canadian healthcare is allegedly “free,” but it is paid for with confiscatory levels of taxation on income and sales.
The middle class tax cut Obama has promised will go the way of all political vows. If you doubt that, simply vote Sen. Obama into the White House in November and watch what happens to your payroll taxes.
CHARLES H. McGOWEN, MD
Howland
McCain’s the one out of step
EDITOR:
Republican presidential candidate John McCain, and apparently the majority of the American people, thinks that McCain is wiser on issues of foreign policy and national security. On closer examination, however, it is easy to see that is a myth.
Here’s a case in point. When Russia invaded the Georgia, the former Soviet satellite, McCain, in lockstep with President George Bush, said that in the 21st century countries do not invade other countries. Duh. Sure, the United States did not invade Iraq, it “liberated” it. Fortunately, that only jells with the few hardcore people still supporting Bush, not the rest of the world.
The United States is clearly in a pickle on the issue of Russia’s invading Georgia, and to a great extent it is because it is bogged down in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. John McCain has remained in lockstep with George Bush on his foolish mission in Iraq.
On one occasion, I heard John McCain, while touting his so-called “wisdom” on the increase in troops in Iraq, say a half dozen times that Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barrack Obama “does not understand.” Sen. Obama not only understands the foolishness of the United States Iraq policy, he had opposed it from the beginning. We are bogged down there and our options for military involvement in situations around the world that might threaten our national interests are severely limited because our troops are overburdened. And world opinion is not on our side, largely because of our folly in Iraq.
Clearly, it is McCain and George Bush who “do not understand.” Sen. Obama gets it.
LEON STENNIS
Youngstown
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Mahoning County is not one county. It's Youngstown vs the rest of the cities and townships that make up Mahoning County. Mayor Jay has made it that way. The man has to go if the Mahoning Valley is to grow and prosper down the road. He is the biggest obstructionist to the chance for the Mahoning Valley economy to get better because of his Youngstown first and only blackmail philosophy.
The townships and cities in Mahoning County are not there to provide welfare to dying Youngstown. Youngstown needs to cure itself without the burbs who have enough problems of their own to deal with. The WRTA is there 98% of the time strictly to provide inner city transporatation so it's no wonder leaders like Mayor Smith oppose it. They get no benefit from it and it costs their taxpayers money.
Youngstown heal yourself and leave the burbs alone.
Grump's right - it's hard to justify paying for services you don't get when times are good, much less when they're as they are now. It's ludicrous to even pretend that the rural western portion of the county will derive any benefit from a county-wide funding of the WRTA.
Years ago, when Youngstown held most of the cards, they did NOTHING for anyone else in the county out of a sense of altruism. "You suburbs want our water? You'll have to pay for the installation of the water lines, because we're not giving you the pipes for free." Thus the surcharge was born. Those pipes are now long paid for, but the surcharge continues. It's grown, in fact, as high as it can reasonably grow. Sorry, Youngstown, the suburbs don't owe you squat.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I will never vote for the WRTA. I have never used it and never will. I don't even know anyone who has ever used it. I'm sorry that this will affect other people adversely but that's how it is. If my car breaks down I don't ask my neighbor to pay for it. I take care of it myself. So Y-town, fix this one yourself.
“Is he going to take me to see my dying father?”
Well, I had a long response ready to go, but just sent it to the trash can. Anybody who would ask this question has such a deep seated entitlement mentality that no words will dissuade them.
“What are you going to do for me?” Mayor Jay and his administration say this in so many ways every day. Does anyone still not understand why this morbid entity, formerly known as Youngstown, has descended to the level it has? Forbes was overly optimistic in its’ analysis. Youngstown is not dying, it did.
How _are_ they supposed to go see their dying father? It costs me $6 for a one way trip from downtown Youngstown to my front door, and that's only a trip of 2 miles. As you can see, taking a taxi would get very expensive very quickly.
What about all the families who feel they need to live in the suburbs to have better schools for their children; who can't even afford an extra $10/month to support a school levy? The WRTA would provide a means by which they could save money on gas.
Speaking of entitlement mentality... many people have expressed the opinion that they won't support the WRTA because it doesn't do anything for _them_. Why should so many people who could benefit, or even need the WRTA, be penalized becuase others don't think it will help them personally?
city_resident - unlike most Youngstown city folks, we do not live in a socialistic welfare country & county. WRTA riders should pay their own way. We do not need to support people with welfare money out of the pockets of hard working taxpayers who do not need the bus service. If the service can't survive on it's own fares, then close it down and let it go away. The current WRTA service is called socialism, and true Americans do not believe in it. We are a capitalism country & county that means support yourself and earn your own way. Get an education and a job that pays more then minimum wage so you can buy a car and not have to ride the WRTA socialistic bus.
Every mass-transit system in the US is a "socialistic" entity. And, it seems like plenty of Americans support them elsewhere.
Should we close all public libraries and schools? Everyone should pay tuition so their child can go to school. If you want to have a library card, you can pay a membership fee/fees to pay for their buildings and books. Turn all roads into toll roads, too.
Finally, not everyone who rides the bus is there because they can't afford a car. Not everyone can drive a car. (and not everyone wants to)
City posted “not everyone who rides the bus is there because they can't afford a car. Not everyone can drive a car. (and not everyone wants to)”.
Ok, WRTA is a CITY bus system with 1 way traffic. The vast majority of the traffic is from Youngstown to the suburbs for goods and services. This is a service provided by the city, to city residents and paid for by city taxes.
What is being proposed for COUNTY taxes is what currently exists plus some ill-defined, not yet documented or costed out “will call days in advance” system. Translation, give us your money and trust us. Anyone who PAYS TAXES and is willing to just blindly trust a bureaucrat to spend it wisely with no accountability (they don’t publish figures for TOTAL cost per passenger mile now, so why would they in the future) is not a fool they are a DXXN fool.
As has been stated on other threads, the current subsidy is more than $5 per passenger one way trip, and most likely closer to $5.00 all in cost per mile (operating cost + facilities and equipment cost including the cost of retiring bonds and loans).
Again we have a bloated overhead cost with poor service for the city passengers and no accountability.
Any mayor other than Jay who supports a county tax for the service will most likely be voted out of office at the earliest possibility.
Now, going back to your quote at the beginning of my post, it is not all county taxpayers responsibility to support the life style chosen by the people you speak of. We already are through federal taxes being given to the WRTA, which by the way, did DROP as soon as a federal allocation system was put in place that distributed the funds based on written criteria instead of political influence.
Don’t complain about the cost of a taxi ride, force mayor Jay to hire taxis for all residents instead of forcing them to rely on an expensive and inconvenient WRTA system. It will be a good way for the city to save money and expand services. Maybe the taxi companies will hire some of the then former WRTA employees.
"Ok, WRTA is a CITY bus system with 1 way traffic."
Sure, because most of the current routes are primarily in the city. But, even non-city residents can still use the current system--it's just difficult becuase there is so little service in the 'burbs.
"What is being proposed for COUNTY taxes is what currently exists plus some ill-defined, not yet documented or costed out 'will call days in advance' system."
Not really. Here is the latest quote: "The sales tax also would also enable the transit authority to initiate additional services such as small-bus door-to-door services, community circulators and cross-town buses located in the suburbs." An example of a "community circulator" would be a bus that runs up and down 224 without going back to Federal Station. I don't know what they have in mind for a "cross-town bus." If the levy passes, the WRTA board would be made up of 7 members--4 who are not city residents. It seems unlikely that such a board would turn its back on the rest of the county. Afterall, if they don't do their jobs, they will lose them in 5 years when the tax comes up for renewal.
"As has been stated on other threads, the current subsidy is more than $5 per passenger one way trip, and most likely closer to $5.00 all in cost per mile"
I'm still waiting for this to be substantiated. Just because it was stated in another thread doesn't make it fact.
"it is not all county taxpayers responsibility to support the life style chosen by the people you speak of."
I did not choose to be visually impaired. (though, I'd like to think that, if I weren't visually impaired, I would still prefer to use mass-transit) There are plenty of others who did not choose to be in the position that requires them to take the bus.
"...federal taxes being given to the WRTA, which by the way, did DROP as soon as a federal allocation system was put in place that distributed the funds based on written criteria instead of political influence."
I didn't realize the WRTA had so much political clout on the federal level. I was under the impression that the federal gov't cut funding across the entire country.
“even non-city residents can still use the current system”
There is no reason for most people to want to go into Youngstown. Yes most of the income earned in Youngstown is by those who live outside of the city, as stated by Mayor Jay, but that and YSU are the only daily draws. Not nearly enough to justify a county wide system. If you talk to someone who was a teenager in the 60’s, ask them about riding a bus from the burbs to downtown shopping. There was a reason to go downtown then and there was a system to support it.
"The sales tax also would also enable----“
That is about as vaporous as can be. “enable” doesn’t translate to having done the job costing or even the detail planning for presentation to the public.
“still waiting for this to be substantiated”
I did in the prior referenced post. The $5 per passenger was based on the few numbers that were published, total passengers versus operating budget.
“I did not choose to be visually impaired.”
I never intimated you did. If you are visually impaired to the point of disabled, aren’t there assistance programs available? Friends I have who are legally blind participate in a number of aid programs at various government levels. The majority of passengers would appear to be able bodied, excepting obesity. I know that not all disabilities are visible, but many are.
“I didn't realize the WRTA had so much political clout”
Just think of the Chevy Center.
And for us all to pay for it we should ge a free ride or something.
"Yes most of the income earned in Youngstown is by those who live outside of the city, as stated by Mayor Jay, but that and YSU are the only daily draws. Not nearly enough to justify a county wide system."
Why not? IMHO, providing people with a way to go shopping is secondary to getting people to and from their job. I'm not going to get into the argument that downtown Youngstown is becoming a destination again.
"That is about as vaporous as can be. “enable” doesn’t translate to having done the job costing or even the detail planning for presentation to the public."
This would be nice. But the WRTA doesn't even have the manpower to update their website. Again, if they are lying, I suspect they would have a very hard time passing the renewal in 5 years.
"The $5 per passenger was based on the few numbers that were published, total passengers versus operating budget."
OK, I can buy that the real cost per passenger is $5, though I think it might be closer to $4.60. In the previous article, you stated that alternative transportation ($800/month) would be cheaper than taking the bus. But, at $5/passenger, it would only cost about $260/month. As was argued in that article, it would be more cost effective to pass the WRTA sales tax than to continue to provide JFS clients alternate means of transportation. (private taxi/shuttle bus)
For anyone else watching, here is the link to the article we're talking about: http://www.vindy.com/news/2008/jul/20/wr...
Here is another link with more information about what we can expect if the sales tax passes: http://www.vindy.com/news/2008/jul/18/co...
"If you are visually impaired to the point of disabled, aren’t there assistance programs available?"
The only other alternative I'm aware of would be to hire a part-time driver. I suppose there might be some government assistance available to help pay for that. What kind of assistance are your friends receiving? I still think it's more financially responsible to just take the bus.
Well maybe or carpooling or ride a bike or just plain wlak.
"Well maybe or carpooling or ride a bike or just plain wlak."
I do carpool when someone is going in my direction. And, I have walked before. It takes about 45-50 minutes to walk downtown from my house. I'm not too interested in riding a bike, though. With the drivers around here, that gets a little scary.
Walking or riding a bike is good for you. The obese people of Youngstown could stand to lose some weight. I know dropping 20 pounds wouldn't hurt me at all.
I guess I misunderstood. My visually impaired friends do not have the option of riding a bike and can only walk with a stick (white cane). If someone is sufficiently visually impaired to be unable to drive, I would think they would be a danger to themselves and others on a bicycle. The only bicycling done is on the back seat of a tandem.
Do you disagree?
"Do you disagree?"
It depends on the nature of the impairment. I can see my surroundings well enough to navigate--even on a bicycle. My biggest hurdle is reading road signs in a timely manner. This is exacerbated by the high speed at which cars move. But this isn't as much of a problem on a slow moving bicycle. And, because a bicycle weighs a few thousand pounds less than the average car, it's less likely that I'd hurt someone in an accident.
Thats' true and look no gas either.
Hey NoBS: I don't think that's true--my understanding is that Youngstown paid for the lines to the suburbs because at the time the burbs weren't a threat to the city--no one anticipated the white flight back then.
Ok, I have been reading all the different things on here, and now I must put in my own thoughts. The bus system in YOungstown has gone down hill majorly over the years. I do understand some can't or choose not to drive a car. My grandma never drove. We, her family, made sure she got to where she needed to be all the time! Start asking your family and close friends to drive you around. I'm sure it would be cheaper then riding the bus!
The mayor is asking everyone in the county to support something, again, that doesn't even support the whole county. Why doesn't the mayor ask the city for the tax levy(it would only apply to the city of Youngstown) and not the whole county. See if the people of Youngstown themselves support. I doubt they would.
There are already 2 levys in the city. I pay about $42/year in property taxes to support the WRTA, and I'm fine with that. But, others might not be able to afford more property taxes.
I don't have family in this area. I already get rides from friend/co-workers when they're available.
Just an interesting fact: If WRTA's funding changed from a tax levy to a county wide sales tax, I'd have to buy about $16,600 of stuff per year to contribute the same amount to the WRTA. If I could actually take the bus to get there, I would consider spending more at suburban retailers.
Here is the problem, the buses don't even go to the burbs for you spend more time in. Even if the levy would pass, they will end up only maintaining the routes the buses already run. I see where people say transits work in other places. But those place are good working place. Not bad run down places like Youngstown. It doesn't work in our area cause most people in the burbs drive, so they don't want to be bothered with paying extra money on something they will never use.
City.... what benefit will, I, as a non Y-town resident get from supporting this levy? Sell me on why I need to support this levy. Give me only the benefits I will personally recieve. Bear in mind that I have never used the WRTA and do not own a business that is supported by any route. I've already heard how wonderful it is for the city of Y-town. Now I need to hear why it will be wonderful for me to pay to have this service continue.
WRTA updated their website to include some information about the sales tax. (nothing that hasn't already been reported, though)
http://www.wrtaonline.com/
"...buses don't even go to the burbs for you spend more time in"
Yes they do. Here are their current routes:
http://www.wrtaonline.com/schedules.htm
Don't have time for a longer reply right now.
So they give one to Boardman. That is one burb out of how many in the Mahoning county. I don't see them sending a bus out to Lake Milton, Austintown, Beaver, Berlin, Canfield, Coitsville, Ellsworth, Goshen, Green, Jackson, Poland, Smith, and Springfield? So why should all those people pay when the buses clearly cover Youngstown to a very select area of Boardman and back? They should not. I think they should raise the price to ride the bus to make up the difference! With the cost of everything else rising, do you really think people are going to vote to pay even more out of their pockets? No, and that's how it's going to be for any levy, be it bus, school, or sales. It's just a rough time in the economy and people need their money to afford the things they need.
"So they give one to Boardman."
The Cornersburg runs into Austintown. And, they recently cut the Austintown route that ran out to Walmart along Mahoning Ave. You're right about the others, though. However, I think Canfield and Poland could easily be served by a bus running up and down 224. Jim Ferarro had said on the radio, when this was on the ballot the first time, that the outer areas like Sebring could have circulators that take riders to Alliance and/or Salem.
"It's just a rough time in the economy and people need their money to afford the things they need."
That's exactly right. Imagine how much money people could save if they could ride the bus instead of paying $3-4 per gallon of gas!
I haven't forgotten about you Mimi. I'll have to answer your question a little later.
That si tue. Other the the surronding subarbs of Austintown,Boarman,Struthers and Cambell they don't ahve many or no routs in the ret of the county.
Honestly Mimi, _you_ might not benefit from the passage of this sales tax unless a route is created near your business. But think about all those people who are having financial difficulties right now, who could benefit from an expanded WRTA.(they live in the suburbs, too)
Unless we're willing to pay even more, (maybe $0.50 for every $100 spent at Bed Bath and Beyond instead of just $0.25) there are going to be people who won't be served by a fixed route. There are places in the city that aren't even served by a fixed route. This is what the dial-a-ride would be for.
If you want or need to use mass-transit regularly, you need to adjust where you live appropriately. You can't expect the system to come to you. It has to be designed to serve the most people.
So eveyoe ahs to move into the city then? Come on they should come to us not the other way around.
metz87, if you're using a cordless keyboard, I think you need to change the batteries or something.
The WRTA would love to expand into the suburbs, that's why they want to pass the sales tax. But, they're not going to be able to provide everyone with their own fixed route only with a 0.25% sales tax.