Police investigate rolling gunbattle

"No amount of police can enforce civilization where the normal, casual enforcement of it has broken down." -Jane Jacobs

Tugboat, that describes Youngstown to a tee.

Which is it you want oldman? Fire all of the Youngstown cops or have police protection? You can't have it both ways, oldman!

Oh and PS the military can not bet use for LE!

Vindy Headline Monday, July 21, 1969:

"Police Back on 8-Hour Duty: Send Guardsmen Home as City Calms"

Yes. 160 Guardsmen were here in Youngstown the same time we landed on the moon for the first time. I guess we can use them for rock-throwing but not for gun battles.

No. They can augment LE but not act as LE. No arrest powers. One the mayor has no athority over the national guard or the US military. More importantly:

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement police or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states, their counties and municipal divisions) in the former Confederate states.

The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the United States National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act.

The Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act substantially limit the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement.

Next argument.

The bottom line is Youngstown needs more officers on the streets and less desk jockeys. Jay wants to address that but I suspect the police union will fight tooth and nail to prevent it. Promoting everyone based on longevity is a policy long past its usefullness and certainly the private sector doesn't do it. In fact, well run public sector police agencies don't have the ratio of desk jocks to street officers that Youngstown has. It's time the police unions locally quit choking the public finances and safety all in the name of promotions and ever increasing wages and benefits. To protect and to serve isn't just a catch phrase.

Congrats on learning to copy and paste paragraphs. What's your point? People are sick of fearing for their lives on the streets in front of their homes and businesses and you're going to drop passages from Fed laws on them? Next time you want to argue with someone come up with something on your own...if you can.

Jeff just providing FACTS not opinions or making stuff up like oldman.

Oldman do some more research.

kblair, read the whole thing, especially the link explaining "state of emergency:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National...

I know, I know...we should wait until the house is completely on fire before anything is done. But that is the nature of politics. :-)

oldman. I never said that you made it up. Just that you did not read them or interpret them correctly.

Tug, routine law enforcement does not constitute a state of emergency.

This a good example of why the police need more teeth. They need to start clamping down and enforcing the letter of the law and if the leaders of these communities can't do the job then they need to be replaced with people who have the balls to do the job. If people can't play nice then they need to pay the price.

Hey people, NEWS FLASH ---

The Vindicator published the names, ages and general area of residence of witnesses!!!!

I think Marcus & Vince better quickly demand 24 hour police protection, sue the city for releasing their information and the Vindicator for making them the next target of the shooters.

I certainly wouldn't want to be their life insurance company.

Journalistic integrity – just another oxymoron.

I think more people should get together as a show of force that you are not going to let this happen to your neighborhood whether at the courts or at the council meetings. The only way anything will get done if the community sticks together.

Oldman you abvocate martial law now until YOUr rights get violated then it will be a bad idea. You have no sense or reality or display any common sense.

advocate

Looks like kblair got the last word......

Yes you are!

"Can Youngstown get any worse then this? Mayor Jay needs to declare martial law and get every officer he can muster on the streets. Maybe bring in some national guard to assist. It's a small wonder Youngstown is dying with crime like this going on at 3pm in the afternoon in broad daylight on Mayor Jay's city streets."
-oldmangrump

What it comes down to is that ther are not enough officers to address the amount of crime and call volume in Youngstown. Combine that with a mayor that wants to downsize the department and this is what you get, gun battles in the middle of the day. Oh, and sprinkle a little Mahoning County Judicial salt on the wound that goes soft on the sentencing for repeat offenders.

Now children, fight nice!

I believe in 1985, when the tornadoes devastated Newton Falls, among other towns, the National Guard was THE policing authority there, specifically the MP units (there are two there) from the Christy Armory near Austintown. A fellow I used to work with was deployed there at that time, so don't tell me it didn't happen. The MPs arrested looters and trespassers, and detained them until they could be taken to be booked and housed in a jail facility.

That's probably before kblair was alive.

I also remember 1969, when there were National Guard on many streetcorners. I remember the curfew every night, and the racial tension in the air. I don't know if they were 'augmenting' the police or actually doing the police's job, but either way, if you were caught by one of the National Guard breaking the law, it didn't much matter. Bottom line was, you were busted and going to jail.

Now, if we have gang-bangers out in broad daylight, at 3 pm in the middle of the week, riding around shooting at each other like they think they're in some gangster movie, it's time to say Enough is Enough. It's out of control here, and it's time to quit pussyfooting around the problem. I don't care if they have to bring in the 101st Airborn - the YPD needs help, and if the jails are too full, that's just too bad for the prisoners. Stuff them all in there. If living conditions in jail get too uncomfortable, maybe jail will be a deterrent force again.

No the did not arrest. They detained them for local LE.

and it was a declared emergency

Oh God, that explains everything. Discussion is finished.

SUGGESTION TO MAYOR WILLIAMS & LOCAL JUDGES: Instead of arresting all of these thugs and overcrowding the jails and prisons, why not just nab the wanna-be racketeers, segment a portion of the City (say the area surrounding McKelvey Lake) and put up a razor ribbon fence (electrified, too) and let these animals all try to survive amongst themselves sort like a "survival of the fittest"; throw in a few fishing poles, live tigers and lions, and a load of "junker" cadillac's between 1976 and 1986 with 30-day tags on them. Let us not forget two abandoned semis full of "spinner wheels", too.

Well, I once again, reluctantly agree with Grump. He is absolutely right. It is totally out of control, and something needs to be done QUICK. The mayor has every right to ask the National Guard to come in, we are part of this nation and we need their protection. It is obvious the police don't have the manpower to control it. It is only going to get worse. The handwriting is on the wall. And for those of you who live in the "burbs", guess what? In case you haven't noticed, it is slowly creeping into Boardman.....next stop, Canfield......and on and on till this whole area is totally destroyed. Get on the bandwagon and demand action.

People of Youngstown:
You need to get up and take back your streets. There are enough God-fearing able bodied people in Y-town to make a difference. Harrass your police station until somebody shows up, when you see something bad ABOUT to happen. Don't always wait until somebody gets killed or a neighborhood gets shot up! AND----the mamas and the Big Mamas need to get active about their children and their grandchildren-----get back to church and start asking God to help you to get these young people back to Him. Churches, start doing more street ministry and let the gang bangers know that God is alive and that Jesus still saves!
Y-town is my hometown and it is hard coming back and seeing the difference that time has made. Don't hang it all on the mayor and the police. ALL of you have to work together!

Just Wondering. . .

Where exactly is the State Highway Patrol throughout all of this?

I see them all over the burbs where they have a field day writing speeding and DUI tickets. I never (and I am not exaggerating when I say NEVER) see them within the Youngstown city limits. There used to be one who lived on 5th Avenue and Crandall park, but the only time I ever saw his cruiser was in his driveway when he was home. Since he has either moved or quit being a cop, I haven't even seen that one anymore. But I have, in fact, been followed down Mahoning avenue through Austintown several times only to have them peel off at Steele street (the Youngstown city limit).

Last time I checked the state pays for the Highway patrol and that means the State income taxes of the city of Youngstown's residents (as well as those of the burbs - so don't get your panites all in a bunch OldManGrump).

And yet they routinely patrol all of the burbs and dont ever enter the city. Maybe its an idea to augment the city's police force by insisting that the State Highway Patrol show as much (or even any) attention to the city as they do to the surrounding areas. Maybe we wouldnt have to be talking about pulling in the National Guard if we actually received the resources of the Police forces that we have already paid for.

I agree with you jmason, but the young people have a mind of their own nowadays. They are talking any kind of way to their parents and the parents are acting more like a friend than a parent anyways. Where are the fathers? I can say that I was raised in a single parent home and that single parent was my father. He kept us involved in activities, by the time it was time to come home, we were too tired or it was too dark to go anywhere. There are some churches that do outreach to the community, but I think that they all need to get together and take back the streets, we need to get aggressive for GOD! People are intimidated by the criminals, again, there is a no snitching policy, and it is sad, but maybe we need to step out on faith and stop being intimidated by the criminals. the only thing that is happening is a cycle, then the next thing you know, your loved one is the victim or the accused. I agree harass the police, they will have no issue harassing you. Bug the politicians of your city, the councilmen and women, the senators and reps in Columbus, the govt harasses you if you do not pay your taxes, harass them and make them earn your vote. And if they still are not doing anything, vote them out of office come election time. Do not just vote for name recognization, because you are getting the same results.

The OSHP is responsible for statewide traffic services , statewide emergency response services and support services to the public and the criminal justice community, investigation of criminal activities on state-owned and leased property throughout Ohio, and security for the Governor and other dignitaries.. You aren't going to find them in residential neighborhoods unless they are assigned to a state task force. The reason you see them in Austintown is that they frequently receive money to enforce DUI laws on state owned and maintained roads, as well as task forces for DUI enforcement. As for never being within the city limits... I'll let my husband know that it was a figment of his imagination the 5 times(5 solid weeks) in the past year when he assisted YPD on various task forces in the projects. I'll also make sure the OSHP strips him of his ACE awards since he didn't recover those stolen vehicles in Y-town.

Now that I've posted the above comment I want to add.... why do you continually want to push the responsibility onto someone or something else. YPD and the Mayor need to handle their own business. Don't blame other people or entities for the woes not created by them. It won't matter how many additional law enforcement officers become involved if the people that witness crimes refuse to give up what they know. If you see someone shot, tell who did it.If you know your neighbor is a drug dealer, report it, etc. I know it will take a lot of courage to do this, but nothing will ever get better without the assistance of the residents of Y-town.

Old Man Grump: Apparently the Mayor has asked the Governor. Hell, Mimi2BC's husband spent a whole 5 weeks here on a "Task Force" looking for stolen cars. . .

Now that you mention it, I do hear a lot of that. "I don't come to Youngstown because my car might get stolen". What was he doing the other 11 months of the year - patrolling the mean streets of Canfield and Boardman?

The fact of the matter is that what the city needs is the sort of constant patrolling and police presence from the State Highway Patrol that the burbs get.

Mimi2BC - Your words "The OSHP is responsible for statewide traffic services , statewide emergency response services and support services to the public". Notice the word "statewide" mentioned several times? Last I checked, the city of Youngstown is part of the state.

The city is no less the public than the burbs are, we pay the same taxes for these services and, if you take into account the amount of need, the argument can be made that we need them a lot more than the burbs do.

As far as that "Task Force" crap you spoke of, I have never got a DUI from them, however I have received several traffic citations for such horrible offenses as speeding and failure to come to a complete stop. . . I personally know a guy who received a ticket for "Entering a left turn lane too early" - before the painted lines on the road said he could. That same Highway Patrol officer gave citations to 2 people at the same time for this - by the way - him and a lady in another car in front of him.

All of the aforementioned acts of Highway Patrolman heroism have occurred in the burbs (the left turn my friend got was from 224 onto Southern Blvd.). I wonder if the mayors of these towns have all asked Governor Strickland for Highway Patrol help for their overwhelming traffic problems?

I am not blaming anyone else for the woes going on in the city. These problems have been 30 years in the making and they are the fault of everyone and no one. I am blaming the Highway Patrol for staying happily in areas that need virtually no help at all while they completely ignore areas that do need and are asking for help.

I also simply point out that we are paying for and deserve no less help from state level public servants than the burbs do, but that's what we're getting - no help at all.

But hey - as long as those in the burbs can slumber peacefully at night - that's all that matters - right?

And one other thing Mimi2BC, I obviously can not speak for everyone in Youngstown, but I have never ever - nor will I ever witness a crime and fail to report it or provide evidence in court about it (if I can). To my knowledge, no one I know has ever done this.

Although I am sure there is a lot of witness intimidation that can and does go on, what would you do if the kid down the street promised you (even worse, your kids or your favorite pet) bodily harm if you spoke up in the year or so that it takes to get him into court? If you were sure that he would do it. After all - this is not a kid who steals bicycles or lawnmowers, he's a kid that has several assaults under his belt. Somehow, if it became a real situation for you, I'm sure the bravado about having the courage to stand up becomes a bit more difficult.

You are right in what you're saying - we all need to have more stones when it comes to these things, but it's not always quite as easy as telling someone to just become "more courageous".

One Who Stayed..... The OSHP does not patrol the burbs. They patrol major roadways, Rt 224, Rt 46, Rt 422, etc. I sleep soundly at night because the Austintown police are excellent, not because the OHSP is keeping me safe. And again, I'll make sure to tell my husband about his lack of involvement. I think you might want to research the OSHP stats a little more. They work in details in the inner city on a regular basis. As for the tickets you received and others you have witnessed.... those are offenses, plain and simple. Also you might want to know that the bulk of the salary afforded the OSHP comes from license plate sales, with supplemental from taxes. As for whether I would report a crime a witnessed.... I would. If I feared for my family's safety they would be sent away to another city or state with family until it was resolved. It only takes one person standing up and then the rest will follow.

So Mimi2BC - tell me - does Market street (RT 7) cease to be RT 7 when you enter the city of Youngstown from Boardman? Does Mahoning Avenue cease to be Mahoning avenue when you enter the city of Youngstown from Austintown? Because each of these are the very same roads where the citations I have received happened, but only in the burbs.

I have never - and I can not stress the word enough "NEVER" seen the State Patrol patrolling these roads within the city of Youngstown. This is not an exaggeration. I have seen hundreds of them on Market St., South Ave, Southern Blvd, Mahoning Avenue, Western Reserve, Glenwood Ave - the list goes on and on and on. But never on these very same roads within the Youngstown city limits. Never. Maybe it's just my imagination and in 20 years of seeing this, I'm actually dead wrong. Just bad timing I suppose. I guess I'm just never looking when they heroically charge into Youngstown to nab the bad-guys. My bad - forgive me.

Also, "the bulk of the salary afforded the OSHP comes from license plate sales, with supplemental from taxes". Yep - City resident plates and taxes (as well as those of the burbs). Again - not saying the burbs don't deserve their help, just that the city does too. But we are not getting it as far as I'm concerned.

And please - spare me the "I'll tell my husband you said so" crap. Unlike most folks, I am not intimidated by the Ohio State Highway Patrol. This, I think is largely due to the fact that they wont come to where I am anyhow. Actually, I'd love to be intimidated by them - that would at least mean that they are showing up.

One.... you're surely are a piece of work! When exactly did I say you needed to fear the OSHP? I'll spare you my comments when you spare me how the OSHP is never in Y-town. Do you patrol the entire Y-town area 24/7? Then I guess you cannot say whether or not they are in Y-town. As for Y-town needing help, too.... try helping yourselves for once. We in the burbs don't come crying to Y-town when we need something. I'm completely over this conversation, YPD holds the PRIMARY responsibility, period.

By the way for all the people on here following the thread about the WRTA levy, make sure you take note.... Y-town residents have so many cars that they are able to support the OSHP from paying for their license plates..... so I guess they truly don't need mass transit.

One more thing in regards to the OSHP... they deal primarily with traffic violations... DUIS, speeding, crash investigation..... Anything you want to know about the OSHP can be found on the handy web-site. This is an excerpt straight from there:

"The Ohio State Highway Patrol also operates Auto Larceny PSIs, Drug PSIs, DUI PSIs, and other, SEASONAL specialty PSIs to AUGMENT normal enforcement operations in areas demonstrating significant safety and/or crime problems." (PSI=Problem Site Identification)

Mimi: "As for Y-town needing help, too.... try helping yourselves for once. We in the burbs don't come crying to Y-town when we need something."

It's not as simple as city vs. suburbs. The relationship is multi-layered and complicated. Not everyone who lives in the suburbs shares your disdain for Youngstown.

George412, I know you are Boardman resident that has found some reason to be a Y-town believer.... good for you! I don't have disdain for the city, I just want them to handle their own issues. I don't live there and I don't want to be responsible for fixing their problems.

"A Boardman resident who has found a reason to be a Youngstown believer," another oversimplification.

wow