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Published:Wednesday, August 20, 2008
The mayor says either Liberty or Wal-Mart is to blame for the delay.
LIBERTY — Plans to build the much-anticipated Wal-Mart Supercenter on Belmont Avenue are now on hold indefinitely, and the city of Youngstown is at the heart of that decision, says a township official.
Township Trustee Jodi Stoyak said Wal-Mart officials have put plans to build the store on hold. She said water supply issues with the city of Youngstown are at the core of the decision to put the brakes on the project.
“This is very disturbing to me and will be disturbing to the rest of this community,” she said.
According to Stoyak, Wal-Mart officials left a message on the voicemail of Township Administrator Pat Ungaro on Tuesday saying that the company was ready to go out for bids in the building process, but Youngstown informed the company that it would be required to hire 25 percent of its workforce from Youngstown in order to receive city water.
But Mayor Jay Williams said, “The city of Youngstown’s water application has been in effect for over 20 years.”
Williams says the application was put in place by Ungaro, a former Youngstown mayor. Williams said he last spoke with Ungaro last week and has attempted to reach him about the issue.
“... If this [building] program is being put on hold, it is because of the incompetency of either Liberty or the people at Wal-Mart.”
Williams said he first heard of the issue through the media.
Stoyak said Wal-Mart does not want to agree to hire 25 percent of its employees from the city because doing so would tie the company’s hands in future hiring practices.
She said the request from the city deletes the possibility of jobs for anyone in the area, including the city.
“Wal-Mart could have actually hired more than 25 percent from the city, but by doing this and stopping this project, no one in Mahoning or Trumbull County will see any additional jobs,” Stoyak said. “We are starving for jobs in this area, and this project is being held up by the mayor. Unfortunately, I don’t think Mayor Williams realizes that Wal-Mart is not going to play games with him.”
“They [Wal-Mart] need to fill out the application like every application has been filled out for 20 years,” Williams said. It’s a simple, straightforward resolution.”
Williams said that Wal-Mart filled out the application but deleted or decided not to fill out certain sections, claiming it “X-ed them out.”
“Wal-Mart does not have the ability to arbitrarily decide which parts of the application they want to fill out,” Williams said. “All they have to do is fill out the application like the thousands of other applications [have been filled out] for the past 20 years.”
Wal-Mart must fill out the remainder of the application in order for it to be approved, the mayor added.
Stoyak said there is more at stake than just the Wal-Mart store. She said the township was expecting considerable growth around the big retailer, but those projects may also be in jeopardy if the Wal-Mart store is not built.
Stoyak said the situation has left township trustees’ hands tied in getting the retailer to build in the township.
“All trustees can do is work with the press to apply more pressure publicly and let the public know exactly what is going on with this situation,” Stoyak said.
This recent situation is not the first time a disagreement over water has threatened the Belmont Avenue Wal-Mart project.
Talk of a joint economic development agreement with the city for water several weeks ago briefly caused concern for township officials anticipating the project’s completion.
Township and city officials met at that time and discussed the plans. The outcome was that no JEDD would be sought on the project.
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Mayor Jay is killing the Mahoning Valley jobs development with his Youngstown first demands. He didn't get his way on the water for income tax JEDD, so he does an end around that stops the project demanding 25% of the jobs go to Youngstown people. If the Walmart project in Liberty fails, it will be all on the shoulders of Mayor Jay. Wake up and smell the roses of new jobs in the Mahoning Valley that benefit all Mayor Jay, not the rag weeds of Youngstown's failed economy that cause us all to sneeze.
Read the article, OMG! How is it Mayor Williams's fault that this stipulation has been on the books for twenty years? Just blame Mayor Williams for everything, why don't you?
Tyler S. Clark - who cares what's on the books for 20 years. Mayor Jay should just let Walmart hire as they normally do, fair and balanced under the EEOC guidlines. Youngstown would end up with more then 25% of the jobs anyway since Walmart only pays just above minimum wage. Mayor Jay is sticking it to Liberty over the water JEDD and now may have killed the whole project. Exceptions have been made when it suites Youngstown. Did I hear someone say Northeast Ohio needs to be regionalized? Never going to happen the way things are going in the Mahoning Valley.
Tyler, I was just getting ready to post the same thing. Old Man, it's clear from everything you post here that you can't stand Mayor Williams. We get it. Maybe it's time to move on. Do something else with your life.
If Walmart wants the liberty location, Walmart has to complete the application. No exception. We should not allow ourselves to be bullied by this retail juggernaut.
Isn't it interesting that Ungaro was the former mayor of Youngstown and was responsible for the regulations regarding water, and now that he is the Township Administrator for Liberty, it has come back to haunt him. This is not Mayor Williams' fault. I'm very tired of having Youngstown blamed for everything that ever goes wrong and the Mahoning Valley getting credit for everything that goes right, even when it actually happens in Youngstown. Enough Youngstown bashing! It is petty, and does not make anyone in the area look good that is for sure.
debraweaver - Mayor Jay is not a team player. He only wants what is good for Youngstown. That attitude is killing the Mahoning Valley don't you see? I don't think the expansion and new car model at Lordstown has anything to do with happening in Youngstown, but those who live in Youngstown that work there will pay more in 2.75% income taxes - win, win don't you see. Mayor Jay doesn't see beyond the limits of the city except to get more tax revenue out of the suburbs.
Grump is (rightfully) all over the mayor because of his John Wayne attitude about this. Clearly Williams is more interested in getting some ink for himself than coming to an equitable solution for all parties. The problem is that it will take Walmart about 45 minutes to stake its claim somewhere outside of the Valley and set up shop there rather than in Liberty; this is not some mom & pop donut shop or something that the mayor can nickel and dime to get what he wants.
Just arbitrarily saying that the new store would employ 350 people total, where are you going to find 88 people in Youngstown that want to work? I'm being 100% serious here. People aren't going to drive from the East side to work in Liberty when gas is $3.50-$4.00 per gallon.
It is absolutely outrageous that this guy has people in his constituency snowballed to the extent that they would defend his putting this deal in jeopardy because of unabashed greed. He's right on with the patrolman issue but dead wrong with this.
Bullied by this retail juggernaut? THEY ARE MAKING AN GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO DO BUSINESS HERE and getting stonewalled by antiquated paperwork processes! THEY WANT TO GIVE AREA PEOPLE JOBS! Are you people all insane? You should be thankful that SOMEONE wants to do business in the nearly vacant Liberty Plaza but instead they are the bad guys? What other companies are clamoring to do business in the Mahoning Valley? The answer is NONE. ZERO.
The answer is come to an agreement based on volume: Walmart will offer more jobs than nearly any other company doing business in Liberty Township, as a result Y-town could amend the agreement to reflect say 10% rather than 25%. A lower percentage of a higher number is better than losing the deal altogether.
From Shout Youngstown:
“Wal-Mart could have actually hired more than 25 percent from the city, but by doing this and stopping this project, no one in Mahoning or Trumbull County will see any additional jobs,” Stoyak said. “We are starving for jobs in this area, and this project is being held up by the mayor. Unfortunately, I don’t think Mayor Williams realizes that Wal-Mart is not going to play games with him.”
Aside from the ongoing verbal sparring and rhetoric...
Linking the construction of a Wal-Mart to regional (I guess Mahoning + Trumbull counties in this case) job growth is probably incorrect unless:
a) people from outside of Mahoning and Trumbull counties shop for Wal-Mart goods inside Mahoning and Trumbull counties.
b) people from inside of Mahoning or Trumbull counties who normally shop outside of their home counties now shop locally.
While either of these two options most probably fall under the "not bloody likely" category, this reminds me of some wise words on the subject of regional economic development from Ed Morrison:
Economic development involves three types of money.
"Good money" comes from businesses that trade outside your region. They generate wealth. (Michael Porter's work at Harvard suggests that wages for these traded businesses are about one-third higher than "sheltered" businesses.)
"Neutral money" comes from businesses that circulate revenues within an economy. You buy haircuts from me, and I buy lawn care from you.
"Bad money" comes from business transactions that export wealth from an economy. Many people think that Wal-Mart falls into this category. Except in relatively rare cases, casinos fall into this category as well.
Unless someone can help me understand this issue better, how does building a Wal-Mart push regional job growth as was claimed in the article?
How does a project like this help the entire region, as opposed to a single political entity, regardless of who exactly the immediate winners and losers within the region are?
Jeff, Your passion for the area is great, and I'm not being smart here. Clearly you're an intelligent guy. Yes, Walmart wants to do business in the area, and we need business.
However, there is the other side. A Walmart supercenter would also jeopardize already existing jobs and businesses. For example, think about the locally owned Giant Eagle in Liberty, which is run by the same family that opened three Rotelli restaurants in the area over the past couple of years. Walmart is a real threat to these business owners who have never wavered in their support of the area.
Walmart offers low-paying, no-hope-of-advancement jobs, but at what cost? I'm not anti-Walmart per se, but I do think that the store should be made to play by the rules.
Sorry, "Option A" was not included above. Here you go:
“Wal-Mart could have actually hired more than 25 percent from the city, but by doing this and stopping this project, no one in Mahoning or Trumbull County will see any additional jobs,” Stoyak said. “We are starving for jobs in this area, and this project is being held up by the mayor. Unfortunately, I don’t think Mayor Williams realizes that Wal-Mart is not going to play games with him.”
Aside from the ongoing verbal sparring and rhetoric...
Linking the construction of a Wal-Mart to regional (I guess Mahoning + Trumbull counties in this case) job growth is probably incorrect unless:
a) people from outside of Mahoning and Trumbull counties shop for Wal-Mart goods inside Mahoning and Trumbull counties.
b) people from inside of Mahoning or Trumbull counties who normally shop outside of their home counties now shop locally.
While either of these two options most probably fall under the "not bloody likely" category, this reminds me of some wise words on the subject of regional economic development from Ed Morrison:
Economic development involves three types of money.
"Good money" comes from businesses that trade outside your region. They generate wealth. (Michael Porter's work at Harvard suggests that wages for these traded businesses are about one-third higher than "sheltered" businesses.)
"Neutral money" comes from businesses that circulate revenues within an economy. You buy haircuts from me, and I buy lawn care from you.
"Bad money" comes from business transactions that export wealth from an economy. Many people think that Wal-Mart falls into this category. Except in relatively rare cases, casinos fall into this category as well.
Unless someone can help me understand this issue better, how does building a Wal-Mart push regional job growth as was claimed in the article?
How does a project like this help the entire region, as opposed to a single political entity, regardless of who exactly the immediate winners and losers within the region are?
As a former resident of Youngstown, it is sad that this is happening. Through the years, the city has lost jobs and major retail...to the suburbs (Liberty & Boardman). I do not blame the city officials for not connecting the water. Furthermore....Wal-Mart should build a store on Market St. Preferrably the old Kroger store location on the southside.
Y-Kidd: I am with you but you've forgotten about income taxes and revenue generated by business that would blossom around the new business. In an economically depressed area there should be no good or bad money, there should only be money -- its the government's job in a free-market society to keep things from prohibiting money being made, not the opposite.
George: I am with you too but competition is king, especially in retail. Consumers get better prices and employees have more leverage to command higher wages. Also I don't know specifics about their hierarchy but I'm sure management opportunities exist for employees to shoot for when climbing the ranks -- store managers at thriving locations approach (and in some cases exceed) six figures anually.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results -- I'm sure other companies have chosen not to do business in the area because of tactics like the 25% thing, its time to embrace growth rather than stifle it over greed, that's all I'm saying.
I suggest that the suburbs put up toll barriers on Mahoning Avenue, Market Street, Belmont Avenue and 680. When city residents want to enter the suburbs they will be charged a toll to use our services and businesses. After all they use our roads, police and fire to do their shopping at Walmart, Aldi, Giant Eagle, Target and many other stores that refuse to locate in the city.
Jay has successfully killed another Valley business that would have benefited the REGION.
Congratulations Mayor, you have limited employment opportunities for residents of the area INCLUDING YOUNGSTOWN RESIDENTS.
Mayor Williams has successfully limited the potential for income taxes for YOUNGSTOWN and surrounding areas.
Mayor Williams has successfully made sure that property values will continue to fall due to the lack of retail development and the continued lack of earned income by YOUNGSTOWN residents.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off a potential bonanza in area construction jobs, not only from Wal-Mart but additional area businesses feeding on the Wal-Mart customers.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off the growth for service businesses in the area to support the store employees and new customers being drawn into the area.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off the prospect of a Wal-Mart being built within YOUNGSTOWN CITY LIMITS – EVER!
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off YOUNGSTOWN, just like FORBES said.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off the potential for ANY regional initiatives with his latest extortion attempt.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off the WRTA county levy by sticking it to the region AGAIN.
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully killed off the potential for rebuilding a once thriving retail center WITHOUT THE USE OF TAX MONEY!
Mayor Jay Williams has successfully shown his true self again. Not regional cooperation, only a vicious blow in an attempt to pay for the excesses that are YOUNGSTOWN.
DEPENDS YOUNGSTOWN – NOTE: this is not a misspelling!
Amen Bull_Chip Amen.
I don't think it benefits Youngstown at all being that it is being built in Liberty plaza, if that was the case then he wouldn't have insisted on the JEDD, the mayor simply wants some kind of income from walmart besides a water bill. I agree it would be nice if the walmart was actually built in Youngstown. Liberty already has high property values and taxes and Youngstown is in dire need of that. Can you imagine a walmart and lowes and what not built in the heart of youngstown, it would be a great idea I think, knock down all those decaying homes and steel mills and start building valuable shopping centers here on the northside/eastside on albert st and andrews avenue area.
This is really quite simple: people in Youngstown don't have expendable cash for a retail chain to justify doing business in the city and people in the burbs won't drive to Youngstown to shop -- that (among many other things) is why Liberty makes sense. If that sounds mean I'm sorry but that is how these things are evaluated by large chains.
That is not true, there are 80,000 people In youngstown who has to do their shopping elsewhere, so whether that's pulling out a foodstamp card or robbing peter to pay paul, there is tons of money to be made here in youngstown, we have to shop somewhere, we eat, sleep, work and live too, and right now all of our money is being spent in liberty, boardman and niles, youngstown is what keeps boardman and canfield in business, they set up police traps and enjoy writing us tickets to pay there bills, lol, if we had our own resources all these outskirt suburbs would fail without our money.
Zieg: I'm willing to overlook your assault on the English language because I seriously love the passion, for real. You can't teach passion. Unfortunately for some common sense can't be taught either; I thank you for helping illustrate that point. Given your explanation I think the next step is clear: people in the city should stop shopping, eating, sleeping and working in the suburbs. Its high time that someone draws that line in the sand -- no doubt a surefire way to make those jerks at Forbes eat crow.
Large retail companies are what keeps Boardman, et al in business, friend. If you ever left town you'd see that in every major metro area (of which Youngstown isn't one) retail tends to be situated in suburbs; this is not some elaborate conspiracy for the rest of the world to keep its foot on the neck of the city of Youngstown.
Also, if you obey the speed limit it will help you avoid being ticketed.
It seems like we always get the same tired remarks from Bull Chip and Old Grumpy Man. You guys are bunch of dick heads. I support you Mayor Williams. Go to hell Walmarts, they have to follow the rules just like the rest of us. As for you 2 knotheads its pretty obvious you are amoung the red and blue-necks in this area that are against any positive move a black man does.
Mayor Williams just helped keep black men and anyone else in the area from getting jobs at "Walmarts." Is that a positive thing?
Most employers don’t want to burden their employees with a 2 ¾% income tax or the various other encumbrances that a store within Youngstown entails.
A similar event occurred in Chicago. Wal-Mart wanted to open a store in the city, the city attempted to mandate almost limitless costs and restrictions on the store and its employees and Wal-Mart built a store just out of the cities reach.
The city would have had access to income tax on city residents who worked at Wal-Mart, but that was not enough for Jay. No, anybody who wanted to start on the ground floor and work their way up as a mechanic, cashier, janitor, stock man/women, grocery employee or any other position are out of luck, thanks to Mayor Jay Williams of Youngstown Ohio. The Wal-Mart will eventually be built, but no there in Liberty. No Liberty residents, continue to watch your property values plummet just like those in Youngstown. You will soon have a totally abandoned shopping area there thanks to Mayor Williams.
Less retail property value, less property tax paid by retail, more taxes to be paid by residents. You may want to communicate your appreciation to Mayor Williams. Any chain retailer wanting to go into the area will now avoid it like the plague.
If Wal-Mart abandons an area because of the local political climate, NO large foot print retailer will look at the area again for major investment. Food Stamps, Welfare checks and pensions are not enough to attract a big box to an inner city area plagued with rampant crime and lawlessness.
No, Liberty has been Jayed and everybody looses. Even if Liberty sued Youngstown and won, Wal-Mart wouldn’t be interested. No, leaders like Jay have indeed killed the city and are now reaching out to the surrounding areas in an attempt to suck the life blood out of them to keep a bloated, corrupt city fiefdom from collapsing. It has oft been said before, but Jay and the city are like a drowning man, they will pull anybody within arms reach down with them even if you are offering them a hand.
WOW! I'm not sure if I've ever read a more inaccurate post that zieg2003's.
Your view of Youngstown is a fairytale. Paying customers (mostly from outside of Youngstown) refuse to come into Youngstown because Youngtown's crime rate is OFF THE HOOK. You can blame it on black on black, drugs, economic hardship...whatever...it's still out of control. Boardman borders the worst side of Youngstown and yet it has a homicide about once every ten years.
This is why people are moving to the burbs in droves and choose to shop here. THEY FEEL SAFE. Boardman, Liberty, Austintown police DO NOT tolerate thugs coming in and pilfering at their leisure. They also will not tolerate thugs carrying dope, guns and oher crap. Atown, Boardman and Liberty are ALL townships and get almost nothing from citations issued so there goes that theory (LOL).
Your last sentence sums up Youngstown's fairytale...
"if we had our own resources all these outskirt suburbs would fail without our money."
Communities HAVE to work to be viable for customers to shop, eat and play. That's when customers will visit and spend money and retailers will open. (Yes I am yelling here) YOUR OWN RESOURCE IS TO MAKE YOURSELF VIABLE TO CUSTOMERS AND RETAILERS. Things don't just come to places with no hard work involved from the community and it's government. You and Mayor Jay have this mentality, for some twisted reason, that Youngstown is the reason this area survives. Youngstown is the armpit of the Mahoning Valley. Sure it's had some deodorant applied lately but it still is repulsive.
Sorry to interrupt zieg2003, you can go back to dreaming now.
FACE posted “Bull Chip and Old Grumpy Man. ---- As for you 2 knotheads its pretty obvious you are amoung the red and blue-necks in this area that are against any positive move a black man does.”
Well FACE, first of all, we are businessmen. We are your worst fear because we are the ones that employ your parents and pay taxes for the various programs that are available to you. Obviously you did not avail yourself of the free public educational system we pay for. I find the color of a person irrelevant, I only evaluate the content of their character.
If you had been old enough to vote for Governor in the last election, would you have voted for a Black man? I did.
A bad decision is a bad decision regardless of who makes it. Throwing away hundreds of jobs in an area with the lack of entry level unskilled labor jobs this area has is a bad decision, regardless of the color of the extortionist.
JeffLebowski you seem to think you know everything, lets talk about the ignorance in your remarks, you have the mind of a 10 year old descriminatory retard for the proposition of "drawing the line". This is not a game, Maybe you haven't heard, sorry to inform you but the times of slavery and segregation are over my friend, and for your information, retail stores do not reside in just suburbs, In cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh the retail businesses reside in the city, not the suburbs, so stop blurting out that egocentrical nonsense.
"JUSTICE" Like I said Youngstown has 80,000 people, Boardman and Canfield and whatever else don't compare to that many people, so when those "townships" become cities, we can play the statistics game. With more people you get more crime, that is a fact. Boardman and Canfield may not have murders, but the theft and petty crimes are just as high.
Zieg, according to Mayor Jay Williams, 70 percent of all income earned in the city and therefore 70% of all income taxes paid is earned by non-city residents. That leaves welfare and pensions as the primary income for the balance of the population.
Without non-city residents, the city of Youngstown would collapse. It may not be a game, but Mayor Jay still lost.
zieg2003, the reason theft and petty crime occurs in the burbs is because the city folk come to where there is something worth stealing! You keep telling us about your 80,000 people.... great.... now if only the bulk of the 80,000 would go get a job, we out in the burbs wouldn't have to see Y-town slickers spending OUR money in OUR stores! Trust me I wouldn't shed one single tear if all 80,000 residents found another place to shop, oh wait, you're going to have to do that anyway because we out in the burbs are gonna vote NO on WRTA. At least some of you could have walked to the Wal-Mart in Liberty, too bad...
AKAFR1.... I'd work for free at those toll booths!
If that is the case then that means people from boardman and canfield are working in the city of youngstown, which means youngstown needs the suburbs just as much as they need us
Lol yall are killing me acting like people in youngstown don't work, we work just as much as anyone else, metropolitan low income housing is in boardman too buddy
Zieg: Seriously...the passion is dynamite but in your excitement you've missed some key things in my comment. I said that retail TENDED to be in suburbs. Something TENDING to be something is far from an absolute statement. The drawing the line comment was meant to illustrate the fact that no one wins the pis*ing match between city-vs-suburb because as one rises/falls so does the other. (I was being facetious, I encourage you to Google the word.)
Other than addressing lack of opportunities FOR ALL PEOPLE as a result of this business opportunity probably going away because of strong-arm tactics by the mayor its not racial with me. (Apparently it is with you though so right on.) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, to even attempt to lump Y-town into the same categories as cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh is ridiculous on every level. I grew up and went to school in Y-town but now live in a major Midwestern city and I can assure you there is no comparison.
Let go of your anger but by all means keep the passion...if it appears that I seem to know everything I'm sorry, I truly do respect your opinion though.