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Published:Monday, August 11, 2008
Forbes says patient is dying without making a house call
“Despite a decade of national prosperity, the former manufacturing backbone of the U.S. is in rougher shape than ever, still searching for some way to replace its long-stilled smokestacks,” Forbes magazine solemnly informs us. And, frankly, there is little in that statement with which we would disagree.
Our problem is that the statement was made as part of a Forbes story on “America’s Fastest-Dying Cities” that promised more than it delivered.
“Where’s it worst? Ohio, according to our analysis,” Forbes goes on to say, “which racked up four of the 10 cities on our list: Youngstown, Canton, Dayton and Cleveland.”
There’s an old saying about figures lying and liars figuring that we’re tempted to apply here, except we have no reason to believe that Forbes has a reason to lie. All the magazine wanted to do was put together a quick little story, accompanied by stock photos of old neighborhoods and abandoned steel mills, that reinforces the national perception that people on the East Coast, the West Coast, the Sunbelt, the Bible Belt — almost anywhere — are better off than those poor folk trapped in the Rust Belt.
Mission accomplished, Forbes.
But there’s one little problem. As Mayor Jay Williams pointed out, Forbes never bothered to send anyone to Youngstown to put some flesh and bones on its skeletal story.
The magazine took a handful of statistics available from the U.S. Census Bureau and composed its list. Dave Letterman puts almost as much effort into his Top 10 list on any given week night.
Part of the story
We could comb through some NFL statistics and determine which is the best team in football, but that wouldn’t mean that team won the Super Bowl. A quick example: The team that scores the most points during a season should be right up there among the best, shouldn’t it? But in the last eight years, the Super Bowl winner ranked anywhere from third to 18th in points scored. Statistics tell part of a story, but they don’t necessarily predict those who win or those who lose (or those who live and those who die.)
Forbes may proclaim Ohio the “worst” state in seeking to find something to replace its smokestacks, but last year, Site Selection magazine gave Ohio its Governor’s Cup for the state with the most new and expanded corporate facilities.
Now granted, Site Selection magazine is no Forbes magazine. We doubt that it gets more than $100,000 a page for advertising, as Forbes does. And we suspect its publishers haven’t been able to indulge a passion for lighter-than-air flight by plastering “Site Selection” on a balloon or pursue an interest in politics by running for president. But the Atlanta-based magazine has been around for 54 years and it does circulate to 44,000 executives involved in corporate site selection. So its word on how bad-off Ohio is ought to be worth something.
We’re not trying to gild the lily. Obviously the Youngstown area has economic development problems. But it also has assets (and there are more of those to take photos of than there are smokeless steel mills). There are success stories: From the big stories such as the Youngstown Business Incubator and Turning Technologies to the smaller stories, such as Solid Axle Industries, which was featured in yesterday’s Vindicator.
If Forbes is going to say we’re all dying here, it should have the decency to look us in the eye first.
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I don't know. Maybe the Vindy shouldn't have made light of it then. Don't worry Y-town, Austin TX is #1 of Top Ten Cities in America to Work & Live today with Dell and the U of Texas as main employers. And Austin is #1 in another survey rating Top Cities with greatest percentage of population drinking or something like that.
What flesh? Youngstown is a skeleton of what it was in the early 1970's except for city government which is obese with too many employees drawing salaries that the city can't afford. The school system is in shambles. Population down from 167,000 to 74,000. Thousands of abandoned homes inside the city limits. No real new tax paying jobs available that pay good wages and businesses that pay taxes. Forbes said it right - Youngstown is dying and Mayor Jay is doing NOTHING positive to revive it. They don't have to come here to know that.
Those few new businesses like Solid Axle that required huge amounts of taxpayer loans and 75% tax forgiveness certainly aren't the answer. They don't pay taxes except for their employees 2.75% income tax which doesn't cover. Forbes is right - the patient is dying.
Youngstown has too many things that won't go away, so that it is not going to die, Oldmangrump. When you have a state university and state and federal government buildings in the downtown, those things just don't close up shop. Dying is not the word for Youngstown so much as struggling. If you want to be as negative as you are on a daily basis, and that is your right, at least be precise instead of sloppy with your assessments. Struggling.
The Youngstown of the 70s that you are referring to is already dead. This is a new Youngstown coming into being. And like any community or person as they grow into their new bodies, there will be growing pains. There will be setbacks. But, frankly, the town you're referring to is already dead and this is a different one, struggling to become something, not dying.
Cbarzak - Struggling, dying, etc... Youngstown is a loser city and that is what Frobes said. If Mayor Jay wants help from the suburbs to get the city ship upright, he better get down on both knees and beg for forgiveness for his recent JEDD water income tax blackmail proposal. Youngstown needs the burbs, but the burbs don't need Youngstown. If he doesn't, the coty will DIE.
AOL is now hyping this article on their 'Welcome' page. The lurid and the loopy are more important than the real news.
The Forbes article had the tone of an outsider looking in. It was factual portrayal of how our community is viewed by those who don't live here. Yes, there are many things I love about the Mahoning Valley. Having said that, I feel our public image is that of someone who never bathes or changes their clothes. I travel extensively on business and have yet to hear one positive remark about the valley. The perception of the valley is one of corrupt politicians, the mafia and rusted steal mills. That is how the country sees us and perception is EVERYTHING. Drive across I80 either to the east or to the west passing through the area. You only can judge the area by what you see. What would be your take?
Grump's first post above is right on. A relative few businesses is great but they have to have a sweet, sweet deal tax wise to set up shop in Youngstown -- its the equivalent of a drop of water in a lake. Its going to take more than a commuter college and some government buildings to draw businesses without offering abatements with so little to offer in addition. Forbes' effort to publish articles that are unbiased and journalistic appears to be totally foreign to the Vindicator folks...that speaks volumes.
Hello people!! Guess what? Youngstown is dead, get a grip it is DEAD, accept it, it is what it is. Look around you, what do you see? A flourishing bustling community?? I think not. There is nothing left here, nobody wants to come here to start a business that they know will die, a University is a place people come to get educated, not to stay and work..college kids add zillions to the economy..right.They come here because tuition is relatively cheap in comparison. This is NOT Yale or Harvard. Granted it is a good school, I am an alum, but it is not one whose reputation will get you a 6 figure job by name only. Too bad we ran the mob out, at least when they were here petty kid gang crimes did not exist. Maybe we should ask them to come back. At least our streets would be safe again and people who were selling their homes would still have plumbing left. The mayor is looking good, always dressed to the hilt, and always looking the other way. There are only so many scrap dealers around, why is he not finding out who is buying this stuff? AND dealing with it. Forbes is absolutely correct and so is Grump, although I hate to agree with him. Open your eyes and look around you...the past is just that, PAST. It is NOT coming back.
The Vindicator argument that this story was slapped together with census data and other easily found statistics is correct. It would have been worth the time and effort for Forbes to send some staffers to Youngstown and the other cities on the list to see what has replaced all of those empty smokestacks.
People may disagree with Jay Williams approach to the JEDDs (I know I do) but at least he is doing something to foster growth in the area. This, combined with the 2010 plan to manage the shrinkage of the city, means that we are not accepting our fate and lying down to die.
The reality is that the city and the suburbs are all shrinking. We need economic development much more than we need more people. Population isn't so much an indicator of success as employment, median income and education rate. Now is the time for regional conferences on economic development that include business, government,labor and educators. Once a plan is devised options like JEDD's and other tools can be used as they were meant to be used, to attract new development.
Youngstown? Is there really still a Youngstown? I thought Youngstown was Boardman all these years!!!!
Great posts Cbarzak, rotor, and Mike. We can't deny that Youngstown has a perception problem, but it is a problem we can solve. Although I live in the suburbs, I head downtown at least three days a week to meet with various friends and committees, go to Farmers' Markets, visit museums, and I just don't see the dead Youngstown that other posters here keep pointing out. The Youngstown I see is struggling, but it is alive, more and more every day. Today's Youngstown is a different city than it was in the 80's and 90's. Youngstown is the closest we have to a real urban center, and we need to work together, city and suburbs, to reshape it.
Come on, Lucy.....get real, it isn't gonna happen in your lifetime. How many "tourists" acctually go to the steel museum here? And how many "tourists" come here? This is not a place many people from other places put on their list of places to visit. AND. Miss Lucy, if you think it is so great, why do you live in the suburbs? Can you answer that straight on? I think I can figure that one out.
lucy - I hear Youngstown has some great urban development housing properties on Hillman Street. Why don't you move into the city and develop one of them for you and your family to live in and enjoy. No Way - thought so.
Well said Lucy. I think we're seeing the same city.
Clayor, where did Lucy talk about tourism? What does that have to do with this discussion? Are Des Moines, Omaha, or Minneapolis big tourist destinations?
Cbarzak, Mike, and rotor: I repeat, Great posts. I appreciate your intellect and your realism. It's refreshing to read comments from people who are capable of engaging in intelligent dialog rather that just the usual negativity from the usual suspects.
Claylor and OMG: The dynamic of the region is complicated, and attacking each other on these threads doesn't get us anywhere. I urge both of you to visit some downtown venues and to attend some downtown events. I think you'll see that things are changing. And while families may choose to live in the suburbs rather than on Hillman Avenue for the safety and education of their children, this does not mean that these families are not committed to the area and to its health and vitality.
Like it or not, we are part of a geographic region. We can fight this reality, or we can try to build an area of which we can be proud. I'm for the latter.
That said, I won't be checking back on this thread; there's too much anger here.
Des Moines, Omaha and Minneapolis may not bring in tourists but they bring in conventions and sporting events like the Little League World Series. Conventions and sporting events generate money and keep citizens working. If you ever have a chance to travel to any of those cities you will see that there is literally no comparison to Youngstown.
I meant College World Series. My bad.
lucy - Minneapolis has some of the best shopping around and you can catch a Twins game at the same time. My wife and I have gone there several times for 3 day weekends. It's a clean, and safe city with lots of job growth unlike Youngstown. You can't even compare the two of them. That's why I live in the suburbs like you do. I wanted quality education and safety for my family. You don't get either in Youngstown city limits these days plus pay extra high taxes.
OldMan, it was cityresident, not lucy, who brought up Minneapolis. No one is saying Youngstown is the same as Minneapolis. We're really talking about potential, about the beginning of a renaissance. Our hope is that we'll get there.
For all of you Ytown area bashers, why don't you just move to another city or state if this place is so destitute or worthless? I don't understand if you think it is so impossible to help the city why you stay here?
Lucy - well said! You go gurl.
It takes time, unity and patience to help any area. There is potential here if we lure companies with tax breaks & don't focus solely on union jobs. I still believe that negative and me,me,me thinking is what has kept this town down for so long & made our kids want to move.
ytownoptimist - it's the union Democratic socialistic mentality that caused the valley to go down and stay down for so long. Now we have a Mayor Me Me Me Jay who wants blackmail income tax money for Youngstown to continue overspending so an incoming business that needs water has do it's business. I am doing just fine running my business in the suburbs and don't need Mayor Me Me Me Jay to screw it up. Walmart is saying NO to Liberty now. Youngstown is dying and Mayor Jay has pulled it's life plug.
Optimist, et al,
I get what you are saying, honestly. To highlight what is painfully obvious is not bashing, though. I doubt that Forbes set out to "bash" the area by printing facts -- they are highlighting a problem among a number of metro areas, yours being one of them. One can't fix a problem until they admit its existence though and judging by his comments the mayor made in relation to the article he clearly isn't ready to admit the problem.
Much has been made of this Y-town 2010 program; admittedly I know nothing about it other than its name. What I do know is that for all intents and purposes its already 2009...if Williams can't admit to such glaring and significant problems how can he expect to elicit such change in a 16 month span?
That is my point in a nutshell, no more and no less.
Your regional pride is great and I don't begrudge you in any regard because of it, but how much faith in this area do you really have if you think the only way to revitalize it is solely through abatements? Honestly. On this I speak from experience: negative is not what is driving people away from the area, reality is.
Downtown Y-Town, even including YSU, accounts for only a small part of the 34 square miles that constitute Youngstown. Yes I regularly attend events and contribute to the income of employees in Youngstown. HOWEVER, the downtown area is by and large government operations. The courts, the city and county buildings, YSU, the Chevy Center, museums, WRTA, various county and state services all represent government, not private financing. How many square feet, in use, for profit commercial buildings are there downtown? How about in the rest of the 34 square miles of the city?
Is a city alive if there are 2 square miles or about 6% funded primarily by tax revenues (city, county, state and federal) that are active?
Is a city alive if, according to the mayor, over 70% of the income is taken out of the city? That is shown by the fact that over 70% of the income taxes paid to the city are paid by non-residents. Even the city employees are fighting for the right to not be burdened with living in the city, let alone forcing their children to attend city schools.
If you take out the tax exempt operations (St. E’s, performance centers, Diocese, etc.) you have essentially nothing of significance left except services for the government related employees.
Throw in Mayor Jays latest extortion attempt which has chased Wal-Mart out of the Liberty area with the potential boon to building and employment in that area over and above the Wal-Mart operation and the threats to the Townships. Now you have not only a 90%+ DEAD city, but also no potential for cooperation from areas outside of the city.
No, I am sorry to say, the patient has been dead for some time. Go out into the neighborhoods and the former industrial areas in the city. Who would simply abandon millions of square feet of housing and/or industrial buildings if they were not dead? Who would allow housing to be bulldozed and not rebuilt of the area was not dead? Why would churches be abandoned or turned over to unrelated congregations who can not even afford upkeep of the buildings if the area was not dead?
It can’t even be said that downtown is the heart of the city. It is only of interest to those outside of the city, except for the courts. It is a playground for the suburbanites and students, not for regular city residents. It is a fortress to protect government employees. In reality, the heart was excised from the city long before it finally died.
It is to the point where you cannot even buy groceries, clothes, new cars, books or anything else but alcohol, tobacco, restraint/bar food and Lottery tickets in the city.
No, the city is dead, and leadership like Jays is what finally put the wither corpse out of its misery.
Unfortunately, because I have a block watch meeting to attend tonight, I don't have a lot of time to respond.
This isn't why I picked Minneapolis along with Des Moines and Omaha, but Minneapolis isn't really that much "safer" than Youngstown. According to these statistics from 2006, http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare... you are more likely to be a victim of robbery, aggravated assault, larceny theft, or vehicle theft in Minneapolis. While Youngstown's murder rate is much higher, I'm not really worried about that here. I'm not trying to say this makes it OK, but most of Youngstown's murders aren't random and between strangers.
Would Minneapolis be doing so well if a large percentage of the present anf former population made it their life's gaol to perpetuate the city's negative image? (like many on this board seem intent on doing to Youngstown)
Jeff, the Youngstown2010 plan was never about being "done" at the year 2010. The year 2010 was a somewhat arbitrary year that conveyed a sense of "near future" when it was picked. A city's development is never "done." The goal of the 2010 plan was to put the city at the beginning of a journey back to prosperity.
I appreciate the clarification and you are correct, development needs to be ongoing.
Nd it is rare that any new busniesses are bieng built when you ahve a city thatwould rahter fight it nieghbors then help itslef first. Why you think the buniesses are being built in Boardman,Austintown,ad canfield? To get away form that mess that is called Yongstown or at least try to.
metz87 - your preaching to the choir. Somehow Mayor Jay and his supporters need to understand what's going on and fix what's broke in Youngstown - cooperation.
That may not eb poosible for the to do so. Let's hope he don't run for reelection.
This Walmart thing is a joke.......Walmart is BIG we are tiny..who really cares who they hire? They will hire people who apply and are qualified, giving them mandates is a joke and they are too big for jokes. Even Pat Ungaro said those ideas were made up years ago, this is the future, not the past. Mayor.....CHANGE it. Can't you see you are driving any big company away with these archaic rules? That's why this town is dead, everyone here lives in the past and doesn't DO change. Get with the program.
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